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On August 06 2013 08:27 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 08:20 Plansix wrote:
So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa? That he has been denied a Visa is indeed a fact. the allegation that he 'overstayed' in the legal sens of the term is not an established fact afaik. Therefore claims that 1/ he deserved the 'punishment' for 'breaking the law' and/or 2/ he should have known in advance what the Embassy would decide at its entire discretion are bogus and self-serving.
If you're so terribly interested, for an actual relevant reason other than being internet police/web lawyer, contact the manager directly. Visa denials are accompanied with specific violations as to what section of law they were in conflict with.
http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/denials/denials_1361.html
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On August 06 2013 07:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 07:37 revel8 wrote:On August 06 2013 06:37 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in. More then half of what you are talking about is pointless. violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it. There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it. Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one. Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year. It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now. I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be.
His manager shares responsibility, yes. However you cannot just say it wasn't Violet's responsibility too. He is an adult, it is his responsibility to fulfill his obligations wrt visa conditions.
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Northern Ireland26992 Posts
On August 06 2013 08:51 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 07:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 06 2013 07:37 revel8 wrote:On August 06 2013 06:37 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in. More then half of what you are talking about is pointless. violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it. There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it. Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one. Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year. It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now. I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be. His manager shares responsibility, yes. However you cannot just say it wasn't Violet's responsibility too. He is an adult, it is his responsibility to fulfill his obligations wrt visa conditions.
He has ultimate responsibility does Violet, just seems a bit shitty. If his contravention of visa conditions had been properly explained to him, I can't see him just disregarding it. That said, he might well of done.
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On August 06 2013 08:08 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 07:37 revel8 wrote:
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year. Until proven otherwise, he did not breach his visa condition. not matter what plansix is saying, getting two 90 days visa 'in a row' - that is physically leaving the country for a day or more in between - Is _not_ illegal. The Embassy can refuse to give you another one at their discretion.. but that refusal does not imply that you did something 'illegal'. yes overstay => denial but the reciprocal is not true.
Excuse me. Violet acted in a way contrary to his visa conditions. Stop pretending otherwise. If he did not, then he would have not been excluded from the US for the last 8 months. If he did not, then Violet and his manager would not be accepting culpability for the situation.
Your posts in this thread have now just degenerated to desperate trolling, for some reason. You seem desperate to find some other explanation other than the actual situation where Violet has accepted responsibility for creating this situation, through his actions last year.
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I fully support the US government's decision here.
Obviously, someone who overstays a Visa is a potential terrorist, threat to the United States, threat to freedom, threat to Christian-Judaism believers everywhere, possible hedonist and finally, no friend of mine.
In fact, Violet should be permanently banned from everything, and spend his final days in Guantanamo Bay.
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In light of the big immigration debate here in the US, and LoL players being able to use athlete visas, this is unfortunate. But if he has overstayed his visa in the past, then I can't really blame the gov't for not letting him back in. Shame that we're about to give illegals amnesty, but not let Violet play.
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It sucks, but at least Jim and Macsed are coming
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On August 06 2013 09:02 BronzeKnee wrote:
I fully support the US government's decision here.
Obviously, someone who overstays a Visa is a potential terrorist, threat to the United States, threat to freedom, threat to Christian-Judaism believers everywhere, possible hedonist and finally, no friend of mine.
In fact, Violet should be permanently banned from everything, and spend his final days in Guantanamo Bay.
Everyone he's ever talked to should be monitored, their families waterboarded.
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Its the US of A, everyone is a possible terrorist, so I guess violet is regarded as a spy or terrorist. Its sick how disgusting tourists is handled there now, I rather travel to russia or china then the US now days.
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EPT
