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Violet should be banned from WCS NA now. Maybe he can play in WCS KR again once his year long (?) region commitment is done.
Yes, I know its not in direct control of him, but this happened twice now.
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On August 05 2013 18:13 Waxangel wrote:
It seems like WCS AM organizers didn't really try to assess viOLet's chances and just went with his management's assurances that he would be able to get things sorted out by season II.
Now that it's happened again, Blizz will probably need to start assessing these things themselves, and decline participation to players who they think have a sufficiently low chance of qualifying for a visa :/
Yeah, I bet that won't be fun for anyone. I don't know how you assess that accurately and ahead of time, but its pretty clear that taking players and teams on face value isn’t working out either.
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On August 05 2013 10:21 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 10:19 revel8 wrote:On August 05 2013 09:02 shmget wrote:On August 05 2013 08:37 AgentW wrote:
I thought that WCS never being played anywhere but in California in the future was implied, but that seems to have flown over your head.
It does not change the fact that the rational you used to justify that position do no hold waters.
The logistical possibility of having the finals in Toronto is non-existant. NASL/Blizzard/WCS is only going to lose money by doing it, so why bother?
oh... so it is a 'because I said so' kind of argument ? never mind then. On August 05 2013 08:37 AgentW wrote:On August 05 2013 08:28 shmget wrote:On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote:
For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues. Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew. Except that he did after being denied re-entry after Season 1. Are you intentionally ignoring facts at this point? Did you read the quote ? let me re-print it for you "why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues." There was nothing about 'after season 1', because the poster prolly already knew the answer to that: he would have been prohibited to change region as per Blizzard rules. So the only rational understanding of that statement was the face value of it... why violet chose the WCS AM region [ at all, to start with ] when he [allegedly] knew he's _going to_ have visa issues. Eh, but what do I know... american english is not my native language, I clearly must be missing some 'subtle' nuances. Violet has been been having issues with getting his Visa denied since Jan 2013, according to his manager, CSN Andrew. That is 3 months before WCS AM Season 1 2013. So Violet knew that there was a chance he would not be able to compete in the WCS NA offline section, due to these Visa issues. Knowing of these Visa issues, Violet should have entered WCS KR because he already was in Korea and had been since Dec 2012. Having your Visa squared away should be a requirement for even competing in the qualifiers. Situations like this are the result of bad foresight.
Actually, I think it is very country dependent. For some countries, you have to showed that you have qualified for the tournament to even be considered for the VISA process. So I am not sure your idea would be feasible.
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On August 05 2013 18:17 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 18:07 29 fps wrote:
is there an official statement about whether he actually overstayed illegally or not? it would clear things up. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18680131Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 18:56 csn_andrew wrote:
I posted this on reddit but I will post it here as well to shed some light on the matter.
"First I want to make clear viOLet and myself take full responsibility for not being able to obtain the VISA. However, I will let you know that I have done more research on this subject the past 3 months and we even hired an immigration specialist to assist him after he was denied the first time around back in January.
Also fishing for sympathy? I think you will see once viOLet tweets his statement that you will bite your tongue regarding that remark. He takes full responsibility for this and is very sorry for the effect it will have on WCS, MLG, and his fans.
(directed at someone on reddit)
viOLet was extremely well prepared for his interview and had all the necessary paperwork in order. What it comes down to is that Embassy Officials have an immense amount of power and can basically do what ever they please with no recourse to be taken against them. The process of getting any VISA whether it be a B1/F1/or O1 is not crystal clear. If you go and read VISA experiences on various travel websites you will see that there is no clear defined you need X,Y, and Z and your guaranteed to receive the VISA. There is some mandatory paperwork, and protocols/measures you can take which we prepared amply for but at the end of the day in extreme cases like viOLet's it can hurt your chances regardless.
Also, as I stated above, because viOLet spent more time in the U.S. in 2012 than he did in Korea, that flags him in the system and makes it even more difficult. Also you mention that he was the only Korean not able to come, let me shed some light on this.
For the past 2-3 years all the Koreans have been coming over to the U.S. on ESTA VISA waivers which technically isn't even the correct VISA to be competing for prize money. If customs were aware of this upon their entry it is likely they would get denied access to the U.S.
viOLet's situation is an extreme case because of how much time he has spent in the U.S. previously. The other Koreans come in for the weekend and go back on the Monday after, not creating any red flags with immigration. So before you blame viOLet for dropping the ball, that was in fact not the case at all.
Shit happens, sometimes out of our control."
viOLet's Statement: "First I want to apologize to Blizzard,MLG, but most of all my fans. You know I have match tomorrow for Ro16 in MLG studio, but I can't go because of VISA troubles.
I’m so sad my mental is broken… I’m really stuck, make me feel sick that I can’t compete. I trying to my best for other way it just take a little time, I do really apologize again very very sorry to Blizzard, MLG, and my fans.. So sad it is all my fault, I really appreciate that Blizzard and MLG trying to help. I wish the WCS and MLG will be success ending this season!!! Sorry once again."
Thanks for the post.. but that does not clear up if is actually 'overstayed' a given visa.
The only thing that is said for sure his that Violet as been 'flagged' for spending a lot of time in the US, but you can get that even without over-staying any visa. iow it is not clear at all that Violet has broken any immigration law.
I read Violet 'It is all my fault' as a cultural thing, meaning: 'it is not my management fault', not an admission of having broken any laws.
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On August 06 2013 00:26 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 18:17 juicyjames wrote:On August 05 2013 18:07 29 fps wrote:
is there an official statement about whether he actually overstayed illegally or not? it would clear things up. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18680131On May 23 2013 18:56 csn_andrew wrote:
I posted this on reddit but I will post it here as well to shed some light on the matter.
"First I want to make clear viOLet and myself take full responsibility for not being able to obtain the VISA. However, I will let you know that I have done more research on this subject the past 3 months and we even hired an immigration specialist to assist him after he was denied the first time around back in January.
Also fishing for sympathy? I think you will see once viOLet tweets his statement that you will bite your tongue regarding that remark. He takes full responsibility for this and is very sorry for the effect it will have on WCS, MLG, and his fans.
(directed at someone on reddit)
viOLet was extremely well prepared for his interview and had all the necessary paperwork in order. What it comes down to is that Embassy Officials have an immense amount of power and can basically do what ever they please with no recourse to be taken against them. The process of getting any VISA whether it be a B1/F1/or O1 is not crystal clear. If you go and read VISA experiences on various travel websites you will see that there is no clear defined you need X,Y, and Z and your guaranteed to receive the VISA. There is some mandatory paperwork, and protocols/measures you can take which we prepared amply for but at the end of the day in extreme cases like viOLet's it can hurt your chances regardless.
Also, as I stated above, because viOLet spent more time in the U.S. in 2012 than he did in Korea, that flags him in the system and makes it even more difficult. Also you mention that he was the only Korean not able to come, let me shed some light on this.
For the past 2-3 years all the Koreans have been coming over to the U.S. on ESTA VISA waivers which technically isn't even the correct VISA to be competing for prize money. If customs were aware of this upon their entry it is likely they would get denied access to the U.S.
viOLet's situation is an extreme case because of how much time he has spent in the U.S. previously. The other Koreans come in for the weekend and go back on the Monday after, not creating any red flags with immigration. So before you blame viOLet for dropping the ball, that was in fact not the case at all.
Shit happens, sometimes out of our control."
viOLet's Statement: "First I want to apologize to Blizzard,MLG, but most of all my fans. You know I have match tomorrow for Ro16 in MLG studio, but I can't go because of VISA troubles.
I’m so sad my mental is broken… I’m really stuck, make me feel sick that I can’t compete. I trying to my best for other way it just take a little time, I do really apologize again very very sorry to Blizzard, MLG, and my fans.. So sad it is all my fault, I really appreciate that Blizzard and MLG trying to help. I wish the WCS and MLG will be success ending this season!!! Sorry once again."
Thanks for the post.. but that does not clear up if is actually 'overstayed' a given visa. The only thing that is said for sure his that Violet as been 'flagged' for spending a lot of time in the US, but you can get that even without over-staying any visa. iow it is not clear at all that Violet has broken any immigration law. I read Violet 'It is all my fault' as a cultural thing, meaning: 'it is not my management fault', not an admission of having broken any laws.
R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:04 zaxx wrote:On August 05 2013 01:56 sitromit wrote:On August 05 2013 01:20 zaxx wrote:On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote:
This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years. Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all. No, he overstayed. I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him. What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did. You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area. To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
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On August 04 2013 20:13 Kyselin wrote:
Is it easier to get a visa for Canada or the US ? Guess if that's the case Canada should host the NA finals.
if you overstay your visa in Canada -- like Violet did in America -- you also dont get an easy time getting a visa. Violet broke the law, or rather, his manager allowed Violet to break the law.
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On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules.
The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa.
The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea...
I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better.
PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
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On August 05 2013 00:35 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 23:23 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 04 2013 23:21 Lonyo wrote:On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote:
Region Lock for heavens sake please. What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US? Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against. China, it has it's own scene, give it the support it deserves. Until 3 weeks ago China didn't have a HotS scene at all officially, since it hadn't been cleared and released, and we had already started this round of WCS. As many people said initially, this whole WCS thing hasn't been fully thought through, they launched it too soon, and it's still having issues. Region locking doesn't solve those issues without a whole lot of other work as well/beforehand, so just saying "Region lock for heavens sake please" is pointless and not at all helpful.
It's not blizzards fault they have huge issues keeping the game current and having a region for china etc. There is a plethora of Chinese governmental red tape blizzard has to deal with anytime they do anything in china.
My guess would be is that the Crux of why china isn't supported individually probably has something to do with the Blizzard / Chinese Governmental interactions.
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On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
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On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in. More then half of what you are talking about is pointless. violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it. There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
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On August 06 2013 06:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in. More then half of what you are talking about is pointless. violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it. There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it. Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
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Northern Ireland23942 Posts
On August 06 2013 07:37 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:37 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:On August 06 2013 06:07 shmget wrote:On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote:R1CH broke this down for people: On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote:
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again. The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa. 1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period. 2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule. 3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do. Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'. 4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in. More then half of what you are talking about is pointless. violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it. There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it. Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one. Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now.
I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be.
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On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year.
Where exactly do you get from your certitude about the timeline and about the fact that Violet stayed continuously 90 days or more in the US (which is what would be required to 'overstay' an ESTA visa).
Just for reference, skimming only the list of 'premier tournament'
in 2012 Viloet was in tournament in:
Brazil in February 8-11
Germay March 6-10
Korea in June 20th (Code S Ro32 group G)
Germany in August 14-19
Spain in September 22-23
Korea starting December 17-22
With that schedule it is quite hard (not impossible) to find a continuous 90 days in any given country.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
<sarcasm>Righ. _all_ he has to do is to get a green card... sure. why did he not think of that. </sarcasm>
The irony you missed is that the only Korean that are allowed to get a Visa are the one that don't stay at all before or after the tournament.. which is exactly why some are complaining, and some other use as an excuse to hide their deep-rooted protectionism and sens of entitlement.
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On August 06 2013 08:02 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:27 Nerski wrote:
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year.
Where exactly do you get from your certitude about the timeline and about the fact that Violet stayed continuously 90 days or more in the US (which is what would be required to 'overstay' an ESTA visa). Just for reference, skimming only the list of 'premier tournament' in 2012 Viloet was in tournament in: Brazil in February 8-11 Germay March 6-10 Korea in June 20th (Code S Ro32 group G) Germany in August 14-19 Spain in September 22-23 Korea starting December 17-22 With that schedule it is quite hard (not impossible) to find a continuous 90 days in any given country. Show nested quote +
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
<sarcasm>Righ. _all_ he has to do is to get a green card... sure. why did he not think of that. </sarcasm> The irony you missed is that the only Korean that are allowed to get a Visa are the one that don't stay at all before or after the tournament.. which is exactly why some are complaining, and some other use as an excuse to hide their deep-rooted protectionism and sens of entitlement.
shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point.
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On August 06 2013 07:37 revel8 wrote:
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
Until proven otherwise, he did not breach his visa condition. not matter what plansix is saying, getting two 90 days visa 'in a row' - that is physically leaving the country for a day or more in between - Is _not_ illegal.
The Embassy can refuse to give you another one at their discretion.. but that refusal does not imply that you did something 'illegal'. yes overstay => denial but the reciprocal is not true.
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On August 06 2013 08:07 Plansix wrote:
shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point.
That accusing Violet of committing a crime without proof is a bad thing...
People are stating as _fact_ that he overstayed a visa, which is indeed something that would get you an automatic denial for another one... iow that he purposefully 'broke the law' and therefore 1/should have know in advance that he would be denied and 2/ deserve it. neither are correct, unless the 'visa overstay' is a proven fact.
And no staying 180 days or more on multiple _valid_ visa is not a statutory offense. That is a data point that the Embassy _can_ hold against you to deny you a further visa... but the Embassy is not bound by law to do so (whereas visa overstay is defined and there are statutory punishment associated with it)
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On August 06 2013 08:15 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 08:07 Plansix wrote:
shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point. That accusing Violet of committing a crime without proof is a bad thing... People are stating as _fact_ that he overstayed a visa, which is indeed something that would get you an automatic denial for another one... iow that he purposefully 'broke the law' and therefore 1/should have know in advance that he would be denied and 2/ deserve it. neither are correct, unless the 'visa overstay' is a proven fact. And no staying 180 days or more on multiple _valid_ visa is not a statutory offense. That is a data point that the Embassy _can_ hold against you to deny you a further visa... but the Embassy is not bound by law to do so (whereas visa overstay is defined and there are statutory punishment associated with it)
So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa? Even though he was forced to withdraw last season too? And this evidence must meet your standard of approval?
Until then, you will correct anyone in this thread attempting to discuss the issue who uses language that you do not feel accurately reflects what you feel are the facts?
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reading all the stuff about visas I am really glad that we don't have these problems in EU
to be completely honest I would consider moving the WCS NA to Canada or sth where people can get their visas more easily (to be honest I have no idea if it IS easier to get a visa for Canada but I certainly think so)
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On August 06 2013 08:20 Plansix wrote:
So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa?
That he has been denied a Visa is indeed a fact. the allegation that he 'overstayed' in the legal sens of the term is not an established fact afaik.
Therefore claims that 1/ he deserved the 'punishment' for 'breaking the law' and/or 2/ he should have known in advance what the Embassy would decide at its entire discretion are bogus and self-serving.
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Why are there no games being played
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EPT
