We heard and agree with feedback from many of you that a complete alignment on the 1v1 map pool across all 3 regions as well as ladder would be cool to try at least for 1 season to check if this direction is better.
We've been discussing with all of our partners on what exact maps to have next season and here's the current list we're thinking on.
3 New maps: Yeonsu - new TL map contest map Frost - new TL map contest map Polar Night - new gsl map
Yeonsu placed second in the Team Liquid Map Contest public vote, and third in the pro player vote. Although the base and expansion layouts on Yeonsu LE are quite standard, we believe this map’s cool factor lies within the flow of its ground paths. The ways in which the various ramps by the natural and third bases interact feel unique, and seem to be a standout feature on this map.
Frost placed first in the Team Liquid Map Contest for both the pro player and public votes. We were looking for a four player map to add this season that was not only solid overall, but different as well. We wanted to try Frost LE because of the variety in play styles it will provide depending on each player’s start location.
This is a new map created by EastWindy for WCS Korea GSL. We believe Polar Night LE will create some interesting choices for players when deciding how to best take advantage of Destructible Rock and Line of Sight Blocker positioning. We think these map features will help make for some exciting games.
This fortress map is easy to macro on and has a very long rush distance. However, once the Destructible Rocks toward the center of the map are destroyed, the attack path between teams will become much shorter. The goal on Isle of Slaughter should be to macro up while keeping a close watch on when the combat starts, since reaction times will need to be much quicker during the mid to late game.
Resupply Tanker has an easy to take fast expansion, but allies can’t easily assist each other on this map, so be careful not to grab this expansion too soon. The two attack paths along the sides of the map are good for focusing attacks on one opponent, but taking some time to clear out the center Xel’Naga Watchtower area before initiating an attack will often be a much safer way to engage on this map.
I'm not too familiar with the new maps, could we maybe have pics added to the OP (yes I know where I can look them up and I will do so immediately, but I suppose I'm not the only one who doesn't recognize them by name). I really like that they are all community/GSL maps, really like the direction Blizz is taking with the map pool lately! We've come a long way...
On July 30 2013 03:53 MrVideo wrote: They took out Planet S? But my winrate was so high on Planet S...
I'll miss Planet S. I really liked the map. It wasn't too large but wasn't too small too, and the layout reminded me of some BW maps like Bloody Ridge. The games on it even felt kinda BW-esque with lower unit counts still producing action out on the map.
I would rather they kept Neo Planet S and ditched Akilon Wastes. Also, I know a lot of people don't like Korhal, but that map produces some entertaining games.
But Frost should be nice. That map reminds me of Warcraft 3.
I liked Newkirk, not too much of a fan of Planet S. Too much of a cheesy map and not a favorable map for protoss against zerg. Predictable to do a 2-base timing.
man star station and neo planet s, i guess no 4gate blink all in for me next season but i am happy no new kirk no red city, i kinda love whirlwind so this will be a good season
im gonna miss neo planet s (only terran map). i want belshir and derelict out due to personal preference. akilon = protoss map and whirlwind = zerg map. red city was underrated. i played frost in a tl map tourny and it seemed nice. yeonsu looks like good terran map. the map pool seems kind of thin but it can be a good thing to practice certain maps more frequently. i wonder if kr will like the tl maps :x
ill be vetoing the 3 new maps...sorry but my initial thoughts of them as a protoss player...they suck...i can't see a toss getting a third without dying
On July 30 2013 04:27 Moosy wrote: im gonna miss neo planet s (only terran map). i want belshir and derelict out due to personal preference. akilon = protoss map and whirlwind = zerg map. red city was underrated. i played frost in a tl map tourny and it seemed nice. yeonsu looks like good terran map. the map pool seems kind of thin but it can be a good thing to practice certain maps more frequently. i wonder if kr will like the tl maps :x
lol I am sorry neo planet S is far from the only good terran map. Akilon is really good for terran (can take a greedy 4th base and not be punished). Whirlwind isn't a zerg map either it's actually pretty balanced, shows 2 on TLPD 1 with terran with a 57% win ratio and one with zerg with a 51% win ratio. Like most of the maps are good for terran (belshir/akilon/neo planet S).
On July 30 2013 04:34 .kv wrote: ill be vetoing the 3 new maps...sorry but my initial thoughts of them as a protoss player...they suck...i can't see a toss getting a third without dying
well, many tosses thought that on neo planet s you can't take a third as a toss but people are figuring it out, so i guess it takes ab it of time but tosses will find a way
On July 30 2013 04:34 .kv wrote: ill be vetoing the 3 new maps...sorry but my initial thoughts of them as a protoss player...they suck...i can't see a toss getting a third without dying
well, many tosses thought that on neo planet s you can't take a third as a toss but people are figuring it out, so i guess it takes ab it of time but tosses will find a way
i must've missed some vods (was on vacation) but idk...unless Zerg took a lot of damage from Protoss, I can't really see that happening
Polar night looks promising (although I cant really whats in the 2 and 8 positons) Yenosu looks like it will produce some horrible games (turtly and island expos) Frost also very turtly.
edit on a second note if those crystals at the sides on polar night block the paths I dont like that map either <.< But I do like how it looks in the middle, tvt could be awesome on that map (would be better depending on if the crystals dont block the paths)
edit Or I changed my mind those crystals could be good But there or to many. But maby I should figure out what they do before I judge or else I will go insane.. But yeah I most probably like Polar night
I really don't know why they removed Star Station and Neo Planet. I think those were two of the best maps in the map pool. The new Maps look pretty weird in my eyes. I cannot imagine that they'll be as good as Star Station, Neo Planet and Newkirk. They should remove Whirlwind and Derelict Watcher instead...
I liked Planet S, HATED Star Station, Newkirk and Red City, I liked Korhal but sadly you can't win on it as protoss so I had to veto it. Yeonsu looks gorgeous, was my favorite during TLMC. Glad to see it making the ladder. Frost good too, not sure about Polar Night yet, gotta try it out.
oh just realized that derelict is still in this, i can't understand this decision it's so zerg favored, no way a toss can take a third on this map against just pure roach, no ffs in the world will help toss on this map t.t
So they keep in two fucking wol maps (I very much so believe that a new game needs new maps), though atleast they removed some other wol/hots beta maps which is nice, but why in t he f ucking fuck fuck would you ever remove floating island when it is such a fucking unique map that brings such a different way to the game. Really gj blizzard, pls someone make a private server soon, battle.net is just way to fucking bad. Also whats up with derelict, even playing zerg on t hat insanely zerg favored maps feels bad, but hey better remove korhal right. Atleast they added 3 new maps that look decent enough, I just hope they find enough brain power to remove the remaining wol/hots beta maps next season, I am so insanely sick of playing hots on maps I played wol on (sadly most or maybe all of them were never in the wol ladder pool so there aren't many people who feel this way as for some wierd reason most people only/mainly ladder).
incredible decision to remove newkirk and star station. looks like my prayers were finally heard. Those maps were terrible! new maps look interesting. so I would see this as a huge improvement!
On July 30 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote: incredible decision to remove newkirk and star station. looks like my prayers were finally heard. Those maps were terrible! new maps look interesting. so I would see this as a huge improvement!
I'll miss those terrible newkirk games that were so epic.
On July 30 2013 05:10 iMrising wrote: why did they add Yeonsu but not Ravage? AND WHY IS DERELCIT HERE QQ
The Problem is that none of the pros like it. For Example in the Cup Series of the German Caster HomerJ they implemented it into the map pool. Everytime Pros were casted they complained about Ravage..
I sort of like the new maps but I think the map rotation is too big. 3 new maps (and removing 3 maps every season) dosent give the chance for maps to become "classsics" in my opinion.
ok didnt knew there were expasions on the corners, on the second look it seems better, but i think the rush distance is too quick
On July 30 2013 05:22 FridayNext wrote: I sort of like the new maps but I think the map rotation is too big. 3 new maps (and removing 3 maps every season) dosent give the chance for maps to become "classsics" in my opinion.
well what about WW, akilon, belshire? been there forever, not classic enough?
On July 30 2013 05:22 FridayNext wrote: I sort of like the new maps but I think the map rotation is too big. 3 new maps (and removing 3 maps every season) dosent give the chance for maps to become "classsics" in my opinion.
You realize you don't have to rotate out the oldest maps, you can keep the good ones and new maps that didn't go well can leave. So you could easily have a map for over a year if it does well while you try new things and some others don't stay as long.
I hope they "retire" maps after they have been in the map pool long enough, even if they are good. I do not want to see Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige, and Whirlwind much longer. I am already sick of them, especially Bel'shir Vestige, thanks to WCS AM.
Edit: I also really liked Korhal Sky Island in concept, but it seems like players did not like it much. I guess concept maps are better suited for SPL.
On July 30 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: No Ravage me sad
Yeah this is complete bullshit. Ravage was much better than Yeonsu and it's worlds above Polar Night.
Polar Night is uploaded on KR btw, in case anybody wants to have a look. It's a terrible map and seems like it's going to be auto-veto for protoss players. There's a weird massive space outside the natural which seems like it's designed for armies to set up a massive concave. Zerg's pretty much been given an easy place to attack and instagib a protoss player in the late game. Not that it would get that far because FFE is completely impossible and if you do gateway expand it's almost impossible to move out of your base. It just looks like the worst possible map.
And the back door expo is covered by 2000hp rocks so it isn't even viable at many stages in the game. Given that that means there's no easy third for zerg, I feel like they'll just 2 base allin all the time, which the map makes very very viable. I'm really disappointed.
I want Neo planet to stay was my favorite map. really fun games with the two sides and all the snow. I'm a zergie Edit: as for the other maps I havent had time to play them but they look nice and icy althought i don't like frost. never enjoyed 4 player maps without crosspawn.. never can find my opponents -.-
Hmmm, at some point I'd kinda like to see them throw in a real old nostalgia map, either only one that fits today's balance or revised for balance. Like Metalopolis, Metropolis, Tal'darim Altar, Antiga Shipyard, Crossfire.
I like the spring cleaning of maps this time around. Somewhat a shame that Whirlwind is left in the pool, but the new ones should be cool (though I do not know the GSL map at all).
OMG, and I thought Derelict Watcher was a bad map.. The new maps are TEEEEEEEEEERIBLE.. Jeez those are really bad maps lol..
The Yeonsu map is gonna be a nightmare for Zerg - no open area to flank - anywhere, as well as all alleys are pretty narrow - GG Zerg and GL on that map.. (Except those who're good with Mutalisks ofc)
The Frost map reminds me a lot on Kulas Ravine.., ofc. though - not having rocks and/or gold is an improvement I guess.. But man - are Reapers gonna be OP on this thing, - look a all the ridges/cliffs surrounding the Main's high-ground.. Probably blink will be strong too..
IDK about Polar night though - seems like it's an island-spawn map, but I doubt since it's already (or at least said as so) a GSL
On July 30 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: No Ravage me sad
Polar Night .....
And the back door expo is covered by 2000hp rocks so it isn't even viable at many stages in the game. Given that that means there's no easy third for zerg, I feel like they'll just 2 base allin all the time, which the map makes very very viable. I'm really disappointed.
As zerg you simply take the "4th" base on the side as your 3rd. I just played it and it's pretty standard position for a 3rd base. Polar looks like an improved Akilon to me; 4 bases are easy to take but 4th is more exposed (thank god!).
Yeonsu is going to be the only one that puts up entertaining games. I actually like the design for it especially the terrain of the 4th base. Frost and Polar Night is going to be 2 base all in city.
I wonder if any Korean Terran is going to drop a match in the GSL on Polar Night. Thanks for all this free air space ninjas.
I like the removals... but Im not too sure about the TL contest ones to be honest. they look pretty big too me and hard to control. not really my style to be honest.
On July 30 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: No Ravage me sad
Polar Night .....
And the back door expo is covered by 2000hp rocks so it isn't even viable at many stages in the game. Given that that means there's no easy third for zerg, I feel like they'll just 2 base allin all the time, which the map makes very very viable. I'm really disappointed.
As zerg you simply take the "4th" base on the side as your 3rd. I just played it and it's pretty standard position for a 3rd base. Polar looks like an improved Akilon to me; 4 bases are easy to take but 4th is more exposed (thank god!).
You mean the one with the massive ramp that runs down in to it? It's really close to the opponent and really easy to attack from the tower. Also, the lighting makes the map nearly unplayable on lower settings.
On July 30 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: No Ravage me sad
Polar Night .....
And the back door expo is covered by 2000hp rocks so it isn't even viable at many stages in the game. Given that that means there's no easy third for zerg, I feel like they'll just 2 base allin all the time, which the map makes very very viable. I'm really disappointed.
As zerg you simply take the "4th" base on the side as your 3rd. I just played it and it's pretty standard position for a 3rd base. Polar looks like an improved Akilon to me; 4 bases are easy to take but 4th is more exposed (thank god!).
You mean the one with the massive ramp that runs down in to it? It's really close to the opponent and really easy to attack from the tower. Also, the lighting makes the map nearly unplayable on lower settings.
Yep that one. There is actually ton of space around it, i don't think is that close or hard to defend for a zerg. Totally agree with the lightning, it's so messy.
On July 30 2013 06:41 zw1er wrote: Neo Planet S should stay. It is great map overall.
Nonononono that was one of the WORST maps this season. Neo Planet is absolute garbage Protoss simply has 0 way to take a third without getting really ahead beforehand and the gold base died in competitive play a long time ago. Good riddance Neo Planet
On July 30 2013 06:41 zw1er wrote: Neo Planet S should stay. It is great map overall.
Nonononono that was one of the WORST maps this season. Neo Planet is absolute garbage Protoss simply has 0 way to take a third without getting really ahead beforehand and the gold base died in competitive play a long time ago. Good riddance Neo Planet
Gold bases really make little to no difference anymore as mules mine no faster from them. Also if you're opponent has the gold then you've lost the game already because it's so hard to defend.
I like Planet S but I'd rather them remove all the older maps and phase in new ones. I'm fed up of Akilon and Bel'shir, they need to go. I don't mind a 4 player map sticking around like Fighting Spirit did in BW because they're genuinly interesting, but 2 player maps are awful.
Gold bases really make little to no difference anymore as mules mine no faster from them
But SCVs still gather more minerals from gold bases. And MULEs still compensate 3-4 SCVs at time
Mules gain no bonus minerals from gold anymore so they mine the exact same amount as they do on blue minerals. If you're using a mule on a gold base you're not being efficient.
good additions, but maps like neo_planet, star_station, newkirk and korhal_sky_island were also good in my opinion) Derelict should be removed instead of these.
I think they change too much every season im not ok taking neoplanet s away, and neither was im ok with daybreak back when that happened, those should be in rotation forever, theyre too good...
On July 30 2013 07:48 MidnightZL wrote: I think they change too much every season im not ok taking neoplanet s away, and neither was im ok with daybreak back when that happened, those should be in rotation forever, theyre too good...
The one thing that held WoL back as a game in the majority of it's lifespan were the sheer lack of new maps that ever made it to ladder. SC2 is an RTS and not a Moba. Moba's can live with just one map, but when every single game turns out the same in an RTS, you know something is going terribly, terribly wrong.
If you don't shift the maps in an RTS the game just becomes unbearably boring. Daybreak was in the map pool far too long.
Keeping Derelict Watcher and Akilon Wastes, but kicking out Red City? Don't like that decision to be honest. Atleast they put in the TL contest maps, which is great.
Nice tilesets. Glad to see the removal of Star Station, terrible map but it's so pretty. Hope that tileset is used in another map soon, but overall looking good
Good calls I think. B Vestige I never liked so much, but I can live with it. My only eyebrow raising issue is that the 3rd on Polar nights seems like the safest 3rd in the game. TvP on that map will likely be very difficult. First, you are wide open to a blink stalker all in, then the third which is BEHIND his nat. I'll play it for sure, but I have a feeling I'll end up nuking that map because of TvP.
they got rid of imo some of the worst maps. in fact all are bad maps they are removing but star station which should be swapped with belshir vestige, by far the dumbest map for things like forcefields and swarm hosts and an overall choke fest of unfunness
Akilon & Belshir are where the games are getting really stale. I would trade them for any two of the removed maps tbh Look like Blizz wants to preserve some extremely generic, figured-out, Daybreak kind of maps. Spectators are screwed
I'm glad to see Star Station and Red City gone personally, although I am a bit surprised about Derelict Watcher remaining. It's disappointing to see Bel'Shir Vestige is still there.
I'm quite sad to see Planet S gone, it was by far one of the best maps to hit the scene. It allowed for a lot of various game styles and some nice memories.
It is nice to see 3 new maps added. Hopefully tournaments won't be reluctant to change their map pools. If it's one thing that personally drags the game down for me as a spectator is allow pros to choose what maps they play on. When you give an option to the players we consistently see the same maps match after match, that is no fun to watch.
anyone else feel people put vision blockers in too many locations as well as too close to bases? i cant think of a single race matchup where i enjoyed vision blockers
Aw man, Neo Planet S was FUN! My games on average were quite a bit different on that map, in a way that I feel brought more excitement to my experience. Oh well, I'll give these 3 new ones a shot and maybe I'll end up being happier with the change.
On July 30 2013 03:55 banjoetheredskin wrote: no more neo planet s?
I know WTF! Neo Planet S is like the best map in the map pool and one of the best maps made in a long time! And yet, Blizzard leaves its shitty Derelict Watcher shit in there. UGH, BLIZZARD.
On July 30 2013 12:56 c0sm0naut wrote: I dont understand the logic of taking out the maps like Neoplanet and Korhal Floating and keeping maps like Derelict Watcher and Akilon wastes..
I don't understand why there's a need to remove so many maps. Korhal was weird, I couldn't figure out how to play it on certain spawns, but that made it interesting to me!
Keep more maps, make a bigger map pool for ladder. Increase vetos if needs be, but it's nice having a bigger map pool. There's less need to have maps that are extremely varied, or homogenuous, you can have a few quirky ones mixed in there.
On July 30 2013 03:55 FrostSC2 wrote: apparently im in the map pool! That's gonna be awkward to play on...
hahahahahahahahahahahah made my day
on topic:I hope Frost doesnt have close positions, i have no idea what to think about Yeonsu and polar night looks interesting. And also im gonna miss Neo Planet S. My all time favorite map as Zerg and i'm not even kidding.
On July 30 2013 14:05 liberate71 wrote: I wish the map pool actually stayed large rather than just a handful of maps.
Yeah, is there a specific reason it is the size that it is? It just tends to stick to a one-in, one-out policy, and cool and functional maps get discarded too often for my liking.
As somebody who runs online tournaments over here, it is a lifesaver to have a big ladder map pool, gives me more interesting maps to pick from that participants can reasonably be expected to practice on.
I'd just like to tell everyone about close positions: Yes they're all enabled, and yes all the matchups work with close spawns. I would not have made the map layout like so if close spawn did not work. There is a difference in the thirds and map layour and the agressiveness off the positions, but I assure you that all spawns work.
I don't really get why so many people LOVE neo planet S. It was OK, but the central gimmick of the map, the double gold bases, rarely ever saw use. Instead, in most of the games I played as well as watched, the unique combination of a really easy to take natural and really hard to take third meant that most games ended early with someone unable to secure their third.
both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
On July 30 2013 14:14 Semmo wrote: I'd just like to tell everyone about close positions: Yes they're all enabled, and yes all the matchups work with close spawns. I would not have made the map layout like so if close spawn did not work. There is a difference in the thirds and map layour and the agressiveness off the positions, but I assure you that all spawns work.
I think it looks awesome for a four player map. I love the wc3 feel to it, got a bit nostalgic when I tried it My only issue with four player maps is that it's so hard to scout openers, like seeing 10p in ZvZ, or detecting proxy etc, but I guess I'll have to figure out some way to be able to defend every early aggression, cause this will be the first season I'm not vetoing every four player map.
No gwangalli beach? I love the aesthetics on that map lol. Anyways will be interesting to try out the new maps though a little sad to see NeoPlanetS gone
On July 30 2013 16:45 Pandemona wrote: Removed 5...added 3? Why doesn't that math add up to me
We heard and agree with feedback from many of you that a complete alignment on the 1v1 map pool across all [WCS] 3 regions as well as ladder would be cool to try at least for 1 season to check if this direction is better.
Look at all the pretties. I´m extremely happy with the TL map contest maps being implemented. I hope this encourages a more regular competition, ideally one for every season. Polar night is interesting, most open map since, I dunno.
Would switch Whirlwind for Neo Planet S in an instant, though.
i wish they had more 4 player maps. those are awesome, even if it was like shakuras where your opponent only had two possible spawning positions.
and are there rocks or something at the island bases? any reason that they don't put a mineral patch or something there so that terran cant just land a cc there?
On July 30 2013 15:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote: both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
Maps shouldn't have an easy to take foruth. It's that attitude in map making that has completely destroyed variety in SC2.
If you look at fighting spirit you needed to take another main or natural to get a fourth, which meant you had to move around the edge of the map. Up until now in SC2 there's never any reason unless you're attacking to leave your corner of the map and it's horrible.
Looks like my tentative vetos are Frost, Polar Night, and Derelict Watcher. Might play around with Polar Night a bit and see how I feel about it; if I end up deciding to play it, Whirlwind would be my third veto. I'll probably end up swapping between the two or something.
Really happy that Blizzard chopped down the overall size of the ladder pool. I'm not stuck with the inevitability of playing a map I heavily do not enjoy. I really do wish they got rid of Derelict Watcher instead of Neo Planet S, though...
man I just want to say it's so awesome they have TL maps in it, it gives such a good incentive to mapmakers, knowing that their maps can actually get in an official world wide mappool, and it is not some dream one can never achieve. I know it has been done before, but I just wanted to underline that fact.
Now, on the maps that got swapped, I am not sure how I feel about them yet. I think ill have to play them for awhile. I also feel like whirlwind has been in there for quite a while, perhaps partly because we haven't had a good big map to replace it? So yeah, ill be looking out for good giant ass maps in the future. Frost seems pretty big, but it is still smaller than whirlwind if I am not mistaken? Esp with 4ths going towards the middle, it can start to 'feel' alot smaller by the time the lategame gets there. Again, I'll have to play the map abit first.
Wtf, Derelict Watcher will not be removed? I hate this map. But the new ones look cool and I like the fact that they remove more 4 player maps. 2 player maps ftw!
On July 30 2013 21:37 synd wrote: Even Derilict is better than the new 3 maps. I don't know what the map makers thought when they made such impossible to defend 3rds.
You are so right ! i'm going to design a map where you cannot be attacked at your 3rd, and 4th and 6th ! In fact you wont be able to attack at all !
Seriously. If it's so easy to defend. Where is the fun ?
On July 30 2013 15:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote: both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
Maps shouldn't have an easy to take foruth. It's that attitude in map making that has completely destroyed variety in SC2.
If you look at fighting spirit you needed to take another main or natural to get a fourth, which meant you had to move around the edge of the map. Up until now in SC2 there's never any reason unless you're attacking to leave your corner of the map and it's horrible.
I dont understand, if its incredibly easy to secure 3 base eco, how is it fair that zerg will have an incredibly difficult time securing a 4th? especially when T can sit on his 3 base for like forever but the Zerg REALLY need the gas from a fourth?
(yes im obviously race biased but it doesnt change the fact that this is a genuine question coming from me)
On July 30 2013 15:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote: both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
Maps shouldn't have an easy to take foruth. It's that attitude in map making that has completely destroyed variety in SC2.
If you look at fighting spirit you needed to take another main or natural to get a fourth, which meant you had to move around the edge of the map. Up until now in SC2 there's never any reason unless you're attacking to leave your corner of the map and it's horrible.
I dont understand, if its incredibly easy to secure 3 base eco, how is it fair that zerg will have an incredibly difficult time securing a 4th? especially when T can sit on his 3 base for like forever but the Zerg REALLY need the gas from a fourth?
(yes im obviously race biased but it doesnt change the fact that this is a genuine question coming from me)
That's why maps shouldn't have an easy to take 3 gas income. Mineral only bases need to make a return especially if the maps are going to have super easy thirds, but the thing is your fourth isn't that hard to take against mech. If you're playing against mech you can pretty much take four bases for free if you use your mobility well enough.
On July 30 2013 15:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote: both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
Maps shouldn't have an easy to take foruth. It's that attitude in map making that has completely destroyed variety in SC2.
If you look at fighting spirit you needed to take another main or natural to get a fourth, which meant you had to move around the edge of the map. Up until now in SC2 there's never any reason unless you're attacking to leave your corner of the map and it's horrible.
I dont understand, if its incredibly easy to secure 3 base eco, how is it fair that zerg will have an incredibly difficult time securing a 4th? especially when T can sit on his 3 base for like forever but the Zerg REALLY need the gas from a fourth?
(yes im obviously race biased but it doesnt change the fact that this is a genuine question coming from me)
That's why maps shouldn't have an easy to take 3 gas income. Mineral only bases need to make a return especially if the maps are going to have super easy thirds, but the thing is your fourth isn't that hard to take against mech. If you're playing against mech you can pretty much take four bases for free if you use your mobility well enough.
We both know were not talking about playing vs mech . I dont see how mineral only bases would be fair, in fact Zerg still need the gas while Terran bio play would again get an edge (its riddicilous how much gas som terrans pool in TvZ imo) and if its hard to take a 3rd, we have the problem were T and P can safely sit on 2 bases but the zerg needs to secure a 3rd in order to keep up.
I spoke with the map team and overall map diversity was the biggest reason given for why Ravage was excluded for this ladder season.
sad panda
Well I feel sorry for you but personally I'm glad it didn't make it in. It's very similar to pretty much every other map after all the balance changes you made to it.
On July 30 2013 15:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote: both Frost and Yeonsu look like absolute shit maps, incredibly easy to take 3rds with the chokepoints, superhard to take a 4th for zerg and defend against drops. both maps seem to basically consist of chokepoints, at least on Frost it seems possible to surround and flank your enemy but Yeonsu... I smell insta-Veto.
Maps shouldn't have an easy to take foruth. It's that attitude in map making that has completely destroyed variety in SC2.
If you look at fighting spirit you needed to take another main or natural to get a fourth, which meant you had to move around the edge of the map. Up until now in SC2 there's never any reason unless you're attacking to leave your corner of the map and it's horrible.
I dont understand, if its incredibly easy to secure 3 base eco, how is it fair that zerg will have an incredibly difficult time securing a 4th? especially when T can sit on his 3 base for like forever but the Zerg REALLY need the gas from a fourth?
(yes im obviously race biased but it doesnt change the fact that this is a genuine question coming from me)
That's why maps shouldn't have an easy to take 3 gas income. Mineral only bases need to make a return especially if the maps are going to have super easy thirds, but the thing is your fourth isn't that hard to take against mech. If you're playing against mech you can pretty much take four bases for free if you use your mobility well enough.
We both know were not talking about playing vs mech . I dont see how mineral only bases would be fair, in fact Zerg still need the gas while Terran bio play would again get an edge (its riddicilous how much gas som terrans pool in TvZ imo) and if its hard to take a 3rd, we have the problem were T and P can safely sit on 2 bases but the zerg needs to secure a 3rd in order to keep up.
Actually if you go back and read you'll see that the initial person complained about mech vs zerg on that map as terran could leapfrog over the bridge. So yes, we are talking about mech.
Also one of the main things zergs use is zerglings and hatcheries. Protoss use a lot of gateways and zealots all of which cost a lot of minerals. The only thing that'd change is the map'd need to be very good for protoss vs bio (lots of chokes) to one promote mech and make bio less viable on the map for a change and the zerg would just need to take a different base.
Easy to take third and fourth bases are what are hurting SC2 more than anything.
On July 30 2013 21:37 synd wrote: Even Derilict is better than the new 3 maps. I don't know what the map makers thought when they made such impossible to defend 3rds.
You are so right ! i'm going to design a map where you cannot be attacked at your 3rd, and 4th and 6th ! In fact you wont be able to attack at all !
Seriously. If it's so easy to defend. Where is the fun ?
No need to act like I raped you with a tire iron. It's just that the maps have to have a 3rd. Look belshir, look at whirlwind, look at derilict - a defendable 3rd. Not 10m away from every other base.
On July 30 2013 21:37 synd wrote: Even Derilict is better than the new 3 maps. I don't know what the map makers thought when they made such impossible to defend 3rds.
You are so right ! i'm going to design a map where you cannot be attacked at your 3rd, and 4th and 6th ! In fact you wont be able to attack at all !
Seriously. If it's so easy to defend. Where is the fun ?
No need to act like I raped you with a tire iron. It's just that the maps have to have a 3rd. Look belshir, look at whirlwind, look at derilict - a defendable 3rd. Not 10m away from every other base.
Umm, Yeonsu and Frost both have much, much better thirds than derelict watcher has, both in terms of distance and wallability.
I liked Neo. It was a fun map where in every match up, anything was possible. However, Derillict is just bad. I am a bronze zerg player, and I just hate it.
I can't be the only one looking forward towards Polar Night, i find that map quite interesting, and it has that Abyssal city thing that makes it quite attractive to me, but even tho i don't quite like the texturing of it, i think it is quite lazy tbh, it could have been so better if it has had more icicle feel to it, but other than that it is quite interesting. ^^
On July 31 2013 07:58 FusionSC2 wrote: I liked Neo. It was a fun map where in every match up, anything was possible. However, Derillict is just bad. I am a bronze zerg player, and I just hate it.
Sorry but this is just straight wrong. Macro was not possible on Neo Planet if you were a Protoss. That map needs to die in a fire and never ever come back.
On July 31 2013 07:58 FusionSC2 wrote: I liked Neo. It was a fun map where in every match up, anything was possible. However, Derillict is just bad. I am a bronze zerg player, and I just hate it.
Dude,in bronze anything is possible...don't worry about the maps,you got more important things to worry about.
On July 31 2013 07:58 FusionSC2 wrote: I liked Neo. It was a fun map where in every match up, anything was possible. However, Derillict is just bad. I am a bronze zerg player, and I just hate it.
Sorry but this is just straight wrong. Macro was not possible on Neo Planet if you were a Protoss. That map needs to die in a fire and never ever come back.
Macro was possible it's just that you needed a standing army to take a third which is what set the map apart from every other map.
On July 31 2013 07:58 FusionSC2 wrote: I liked Neo. It was a fun map where in every match up, anything was possible. However, Derillict is just bad. I am a bronze zerg player, and I just hate it.
Dude,in bronze anything is possible...don't worry about the maps,you got more important things to worry about.
jaeh bronze players should play perhaps even more maps there is nothing to worry about maps for you just have fun on changes ^^
On July 30 2013 04:06 zephiK wrote: I liked Newkirk, not too much of a fan of Planet S. Too much of a cheesy map and not a favorable map for protoss against zerg. Predictable to do a 2-base timing.
Will never understand how protoss can dislike Neo Planet S vs zerg. Cheesy is true, but just fyi in Proleague it was more than 70:30 Protoss favored and the single biggest contributor to the matchup overall favoring protoss in that league.
wish they would keep neo planet s in the map pool. my winrate on it isn't very high, but I like the map because it's fundamentally different than all the other maps.
Thanks for the bigger picture of polar night, finally get a good grasp of the map. Love the neat expansion tucked away in the corner, although its probably going to be a 4th base because of the sets of rocks leading there and blocking it.
First impression makes me feel like its the best of the bunch, but I've ended up hating maps that looked good before.
On August 03 2013 06:56 dabom88 wrote: Looks like we're gonna have to wait another season to get Gwangali Beach on ladder.
that's not going to happen. The map is far from hitting melee criteria I think (custom pictures....), visually assymetric with walkable water + the name. blizzard wont put this on the ladder.
On August 03 2013 06:56 dabom88 wrote: Looks like we're gonna have to wait another season to get Gwangali Beach on ladder.
that's not going to happen. The map is far from hitting melee criteria I think (custom pictures....), visually assymetric with walkable water + the name. blizzard wont put this on the ladder.
Also Blizzard wants to keep the Starcraft feel intact, thus "joke maps" like fruit land or gwangali will never end on ladder.
On August 03 2013 06:56 dabom88 wrote: Looks like we're gonna have to wait another season to get Gwangali Beach on ladder.
that's not going to happen. The map is far from hitting melee criteria I think (custom pictures....), visually assymetric with walkable water + the name. blizzard wont put this on the ladder.
I'm happy about that too, I really don't like the aesthetics of that map. Also the games play out pretty weird on that map... And, a Colossus having to walk around the beach chairs because they're blocking its path albeit being smaller than a marine just looks silly.
On July 31 2013 18:34 Tonyk1 wrote: omg neo is removed... really enjoyed it.
On July 31 2013 20:37 Aunvilgod wrote: I hate that they keep Akilon and Derelict watcher, probably the worst maps in the pool. WTF Blizzard?
On July 30 2013 21:29 Bahajinbo wrote: Wtf, Derelict Watcher will not be removed? I hate this map. But the new ones look cool and I like the fact that they remove more 4 player maps. 2 player maps ftw!
On July 30 2013 21:29 Bahajinbo wrote: Wtf, Derelict Watcher will not be removed? I hate this map. But the new ones look cool and I like the fact that they remove more 4 player maps. 2 player maps ftw!
It's their opinions on the maps that are leaving and that derelict watcher the imba zerg map is still going to be there. Akilion Wastes going to be the one new map that stays across 3-4 seasons.
I only enjoyed neo planet b/c I could place my proxy stargate in the middle of the map without terran knowing.
On July 30 2013 03:44 TXRaunchy wrote: 1v1 Removals: (2) Neo Planet S (2) Newkirk Precinct TE (4) Red City LE (4) Star Station (4) Korhal Sky Island LE
On August 05 2013 19:52 Aunvilgod wrote: wtf PvZ will be a nightmare on Polar Night. 2 base win all day every day.
Well I think that protoss will have more success with turtling and go mass voidrays/colossus/tempest and a-move after 23 minutes. You get 4 bases for free and the third base does not seem hard to defend and protects the fourth if you manage to get it up. #Missed the ramp leading to blocked base, which just makes mass air play so much easier. You probably want to expand to the bases under your main since your rally will run straight into your army and not facing it sideways. Besides it seem harder to push for the protoss.
On frost I can see 2-base colossus pushes be incredible hard to defend if you spawn vertical or horizontal. It has been ages since we seen those, maybe because of the wide open maps.
Polar night's layout reminds me of Destination without the back alley ramp EDIT: nvm there is the backdoor ramp :D it just leads to the bottom of the main instead of straight into the main.
I'll join the minority and say that Korhal Floating Island is an awesome map and sadly I must say that those who think that its impossible to wall on that map really need to start thinking in new ways.
A minor gripe, I played a few practise games on Yeonsu, the version thats available on EU-servers and the "rocky" terrain texture that is in the lower half of the map is somewhat confusing, at least on the first time. Might not be so after a few hundred games :D
Why not remove Whirlwind/derelict/akilon? These maps are SO bad .. I mean nobody can be enjoying those maps. I dont undesrtant why remove newkirk/star station these are good maps viable in all matchups etc.
On August 15 2013 09:05 Qwyn wrote: Wow, polar night looks sick!
This map pool is shaping up to be better than it's EVER been in the history in the game. So stoked.
It's just a shame there's so many 2 player maps that'll end up playing really similarly. :/
Well, compared to all the other junk that players have had to live with for the past 3 years, I couldn't be happier. It's just, as I was made aware, there are so many potential problems with gameplay that can arise with 4P maps that it doesn't even seem worth it.
On August 15 2013 02:27 Veriol wrote: Why not remove Whirlwind/derelict/akilon? These maps are SO bad .. I mean nobody can be enjoying those maps. I dont undesrtant why remove newkirk/star station these are good maps viable in all matchups etc.
Not sure what you're smoking but Whirlwind has produced some of the best games in SC2 history. At least when it was considered still kinda new-ish.
On August 15 2013 09:05 Qwyn wrote: Wow, polar night looks sick!
This map pool is shaping up to be better than it's EVER been in the history in the game. So stoked.
It's just a shame there's so many 2 player maps that'll end up playing really similarly. :/
Well, compared to all the other junk that players have had to live with for the past 3 years, I couldn't be happier. It's just, as I was made aware, there are so many potential problems with gameplay that can arise with 4P maps that it doesn't even seem worth it.
Psyched!
I don't agree with that. As long as the map is evenly sized then other than a 6 pool which is a problem on 2 player maps anyway, there's very few issues. 4P maps are also a lot more interesting, although 3P are the best.
its so ridicolous that newkirk is being removed but derelict stays. stupid blizzard idiots, but hey finally they realized that their maps are shit and wont be putten in the ladderpool.
Derelict actually leads to somewhat interesting games due to the base layout. 4 bases isn't super easy and taking a fiffth is actually an effort which leads to a lot of contention over certain map positions. It's also a map which in the lategame isn't just super dominated by air like Akilon is for example due to the terrain.
On August 15 2013 02:27 Veriol wrote: Why not remove Whirlwind/derelict/akilon? These maps are SO bad .. I mean nobody can be enjoying those maps. I dont undesrtant why remove newkirk/star station these are good maps viable in all matchups etc.
just tested polar night and OMG the guy that build this map is a reaper hater to the bone! every cliff on the map cannot be jumped except the cliff close to the ramp of the main. Seriously a map designed obviously to kill reaper play is just absurd. Blink works perfectly fine on the other side -_-
Hopefully Frost is also being added to the gsl this season. Something tells me that map will go down as one of the greats like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak.
On August 19 2013 03:32 rwalton1129 wrote: What has been seen cannot be unseen. Frost corners are ovaries and the middle are two uterus. It looks like a model of the female reproductive organs!
Well, seen it that way, any thing that slightly resembles a T can be a Uterus, but i think that aknoledge Akilon's central Bulva is more urgent matter.
Also as i said in the previous thread, i'm looking forwards to Polar Night, i find that map quite fluid in the layout and i really like that back door to the fourth.
On August 20 2013 20:10 DarkLordOlli wrote: Played a few games on Yeonsu and Frost. LOVED Yeonsu in those, liked Frost.
My only concern with Yeonsu, Frost and Polar Night is the fact that we may see none of these maps until Ro8 and further in WCS. And it is hard to judge about real balance of map, when you never have games on it.
On August 19 2013 03:32 rwalton1129 wrote: What has been seen cannot be unseen. Frost corners are ovaries and the middle are two uterus. It looks like a model of the female reproductive organs!
I tested Yeonsu and Frost for the TLMC and i am pretty afraid for TvP on there, especially Yeonsu.
Protoss can macro up easily because it's a fairly standard map with an easy third, but there's also a ton of proxy spots, abusable rocks for immortal busts, and most importantly absolutely ABSURD surface aread to cover for blink allins and fe>blink pressure. Terrans are going to hate it.
On August 20 2013 20:21 Teoita wrote: I tested Yeonsu and Frost for the TLMC and i am pretty afraid for TvP on there, especially Yeonsu.
Protoss can macro up easily because it's a fairly standard map with an easy third, but there's also a ton of proxy spots, abusable rocks for immortal busts, and most importantly absolutely ABSURD surface aread to cover for blink allins and 3gate>blink pressure. Terrans are going to hate it.
That may be the exact reason why I liked them so much.
Nah, jokes aside. I like the way that high ground and airspace can be used on Yeonsu. You can use the highground above your third to defend it but it also becomes a strong place to pressure from if your opponent takes control of it. Same goes for the 4th, it's like Cloud Kingdom but reversed. You can harass it from below if you have vision but you can also defend it well from above. It's just a really cool map in general I think.
On August 20 2013 20:21 Teoita wrote: I tested Yeonsu and Frost for the TLMC and i am pretty afraid for TvP on there, especially Yeonsu.
Protoss can macro up easily because it's a fairly standard map with an easy third, but there's also a ton of proxy spots, abusable rocks for immortal busts, and most importantly absolutely ABSURD surface aread to cover for blink allins and fe>blink pressure. Terrans are going to hate it.
It's not like Terrans like TvP nowadays anyway, do they :D?
Polar Night just say don't play reaper ! there is no cliff that can be jumped in the entire map except close to the main ramp. this is such a joke, just remove reaper as a unit on this map it will be quicker ! Hope blizzard will fix cliff on this map before releasing it !
On August 20 2013 20:27 klup wrote: Polar Night just say don't play reaper ! there is no cliff that can be jumped in the entire map except close to the main ramp. this is such a joke, just remove reaper as a unit on this map it will be quicker ! Hope blizzard will fix cliff on this map before releasing it !
What is the problem with map that is bad for reapers? It's not like every map must be good for ones, right!? EDIT: I am noob and i don't know. Please explain
in this map all cliffs cannot be jumped. it's a type of object that can't be jumped by reapers but you can blink up without a problem. So the map designer intended to prevent reaper play at all on his map because every single cliff cannot be jumped except the close cliff around the main
On August 20 2013 20:57 klup wrote: in this map all cliffs cannot be jumped. it's a type of object that can't be jumped by reapers but you can blink up without a problem. So the map designer intended to prevent reaper play at all on his map because every single cliff cannot be jumped except the close cliff around the main
And what is the exact problem with that? That's what i do not understand, even though i remember those complaints about reapers not really being useful at this map.
On August 20 2013 23:22 klup wrote: a map designed to ban a specific or some specifics unit of the game is a bad designed map imo. Less strategy available, less fun
In my opinion, a map that encourages different strategies is a boon. If all strategies are available on all maps, you'll always do the same thing, which ends up truly forcing less strategy.
there is a difference between slightly favor or desavantage certain playstyle and completely deny some. Just try to use a reaper on Polar Night and you will see it yourself.
and if there are very few strategy for some maps this lead to a very boring game when you know in advance what will come up the argument is a double blade
On August 22 2013 21:39 Mahtasooma wrote: Yeonsu is like 100% totally ridiculous. This is a the-whole-map-is-a-choke-and-I-kill-you-with-mines-from-highground map
I love it as a mech player purely because it's finally a map that benefits tanks over bio for a damn change.
Also to the previous comment I really do wish Xel'naga towers didn't exist on maps anymore. I really think they're detremental to the game.
None is reaper friendly. made some test and yeosun and frost are reaperable at least. for me those map are the same for reaper as for example belshir vestige.
In general if you look at the map pool, it's very simple : all reaper friendly maps are gone. I am a specialist of reaper play and i don't know how i will now save them from speedlings or just poke some key point on the map.
My old vetoed maps were :
Derelict Watcher Whirlwind
because they are very hard to play with reaper. guess what maps are staying... If you add the new maps to this you have basically 4 maps you can play reaper in
Yeonsun Akilon Wastes Frost (but meeeh) Belshir vestige (but meeeh) Forced to play standard from now on. RIP the only very good change of a wol unit....
4 (with 2 meeeeeeeh) sounds good for reaper play for me, am i wrong? Ah, i forgot, nobody wants to play different styles on ladder.
none of them are 'good' and meeeeh its bearly playable. If you want some maps where reaper are good :
Star Station
Red City
Newkirk precinct
I play for fun and I found new reaper extremely fun because it's one of those unit that you can actually micro in early game and add a little bit of 'spice' in the usual extremely boring early game of terran. I play very different playstyle but i like to reaper opening with 2 or 3 rax every time because i like it. IF there was only maps where air unit can't harass bases easily because of a lack of 'empty' terrain you will hear cry a lot of people that like air units. I just don't see the point to have absolutely no map where reaper can be 'good' to open with
I find it amusing this controversy about reapers not being that amazing, forcing innovation and revision of current builds. It can be nothing but good for the game.
On August 22 2013 21:39 Mahtasooma wrote: Yeonsu is like 100% totally ridiculous. This is a the-whole-map-is-a-choke-and-I-kill-you-with-mines-from-highground map
I love it as a mech player purely because it's finally a map that benefits tanks over bio for a damn change.
Also to the previous comment I really do wish Xel'naga towers didn't exist on maps anymore. I really think they're detremental to the game.
I want more flavors of Xel'naga towers, that provide vision is weird ways, like in a line or down one arch. Being able to get vision of one path is more interesting than "all vision".
Also, Yeonsu looks like it will be interesting. Island expansion are back in style and I like that is can go split map. I just hope it isn't super passive, because I don't need Daybreak part 2.
I can predict a lot of blink play in PvP which to me is fun, and maybe in PvT too (I never do it in this matchup though). What I'm not sure about is how good these maps will be for mid-late game PvT and especially PvZ. Too many paths, expansions are too spread out. Frost has a weird vulnerable spot right behind your third's mineral line too. I guess I'll have to wait and see.
On August 22 2013 21:39 Mahtasooma wrote: Yeonsu is like 100% totally ridiculous. This is a the-whole-map-is-a-choke-and-I-kill-you-with-mines-from-highground map
I love it as a mech player purely because it's finally a map that benefits tanks over bio for a damn change.
Also to the previous comment I really do wish Xel'naga towers didn't exist on maps anymore. I really think they're detremental to the game.
I want more flavors of Xel'naga towers, that provide vision is weird ways, like in a line or down one arch. Being able to get vision of one path is more interesting than "all vision".
Also, Yeonsu looks like it will be interesting. Island expansion are back in style and I like that is can go split map. I just hope it isn't super passive, because I don't need Daybreak part 2.
Daybreak was only so bad due to the terrible map designs. Three paths around the map, but all of them were on top of each other and the expansions were all far too close together.
Frost placed first in the Team Liquid Map Contest for both the pro player and public votes.
We were looking for a four player map to add this season that was not only solid overall, but different as well. We wanted to try Frost LE because of the variety in play styles it will provide depending on each player’s start location.
This is a new map created by EastWindy for WCS Korea GSL. We believe Polar Night LE will create some interesting choices for players when deciding how to best take advantage of Destructible Rock and Line of Sight Blocker positioning. We think these map features will help make for some exciting games.
Yeonsu placed second in the Team Liquid Map Contest public vote, and third in the pro player vote.
Although the base and expansion layouts on Yeonsu LE are quite standard, we believe this map’s cool factor lies within the flow of its ground paths. The ways in which the various ramps by the natural and third bases interact feel unique, and seem to be a standout feature on this map.
Complete Ladder & WCS Season 3 Map Pool Akilon Wastes Bel’Shir Vestige LE Derelict Watcher TE Frost LE Polar Night LE Whirlwind LE Yeonsu LE
This fortress map is easy to macro on and has a very long rush distance. However, once the Destructible Rocks toward the center of the map are destroyed, the attack path between teams will become much shorter. The goal on Isle of Slaughter should be to macro up while keeping a close watch on when the combat starts, since reaction times will need to be much quicker during the mid to late game.
Resupply Tanker has an easy to take fast expansion, but allies can’t easily assist each other on this map, so be careful not to grab this expansion too soon. The two attack paths along the sides of the map are good for focusing attacks on one opponent, but taking some time to clear out the center Xel’Naga Watchtower area before initiating an attack will often be a much safer way to engage on this map.
derelict is like one of the few playable maps left. really sick of all this rocks and opening up path bullshit. Polar night looks like an automatic veto, way too fucking confusing.
On August 23 2013 08:55 VayneAuthority wrote: derelict is like one of the few playable maps left. really sick of all this rocks and opening up path bullshit. Polar night looks like an automatic veto, way too fucking confusing.
Yeah, right, why try and play the map, if you can look on thumbnail and think that this map sucks.
On August 23 2013 08:55 VayneAuthority wrote: derelict is like one of the few playable maps left. really sick of all this rocks and opening up path bullshit. Polar night looks like an automatic veto, way too fucking confusing.
Yeah, right, why try and play the map, if you can look on thumbnail and think that this map sucks.
Because you get 3 vetos, so why not use them to avoid strange maps?
I really dislike what Blizzard done with my map. Especially when I had a newer version with simplified textures and minor balance changes, hell I even spent the last 30 minutes mocking up how my version would look with their design changes...
On August 23 2013 20:44 eTcetRa wrote: I really dislike what Blizzard done with my map. Especially when I had a newer version with simplified textures and minor balance changes, hell I even spent the last 30 minutes mocking up how my version would look with their design changes...
So this is blizz version ? And yours is the one in the op ? I don't see a lot of changes (only the islands). I like island not balanced. But fun !
On August 23 2013 20:44 eTcetRa wrote: I really dislike what Blizzard done with my map. Especially when I had a newer version with simplified textures and minor balance changes, hell I even spent the last 30 minutes mocking up how my version would look with their design changes...
So this is blizz version ? And yours is the one in the op ? I don't see a lot of changes (only the islands). I like island not balanced. But fun !
More asthetics ? not sure.
EDIT : OH ! they added rocks
Haha its even worse, they completely changed the design of the map (this is Blizzards)
Seriously i wish there was a way for us to kick blizzard awake , so they stop fooling around with their crappy mapmaking team, and save themself some money. Why would they let us have a Mapmaking contest, only to freaking change the maps WE liked.
PS: fuck Watchtowers, i hate them so much and their turtly design :S
On August 23 2013 20:44 eTcetRa wrote: I really dislike what Blizzard done with my map. Especially when I had a newer version with simplified textures and minor balance changes, hell I even spent the last 30 minutes mocking up how my version would look with their design changes...
So this is blizz version ? And yours is the one in the op ? I don't see a lot of changes (only the islands). I like island not balanced. But fun !
More asthetics ? not sure.
EDIT : OH ! they added rocks
No, you've got it mixed up.
This is eTcetRa's revised version. He made it to match Blizzard's edits:
Then Blizzard added really long narrow paths to the islands with 6x6 rocks blocking the ramp, completely changed the texturing (super contrasted two-tone style). (this one: http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg).
Then I made the same changes as they did (minus the shitty aesthetics) and came up with this. (this one: http://i.imgur.com/MBmSlwn.jpg).
Basically what has annoyed me is that Blizzard didn't give myself or Semmo (the author of Frost) the same courtesy they gave the winners of the original TLMC, in that they made changes to our maps instead of letting us make the changes like they did with IronmanSC for Ohana.
Then Blizzard added really long narrow paths to the islands with 6x6 rocks blocking the ramp, completely changed the texturing (super contrasted two-tone style). (this one: http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg).
Then I made the same changes as they did (minus the shitty aesthetics) and came up with this. (this one: http://i.imgur.com/MBmSlwn.jpg).
Basically what has annoyed me is that Blizzard didn't give myself or Semmo (the author of Frost) the same courtesy they gave the winners of the original TLMC, in that they made changes to our maps instead of letting us make the changes like they did with IronmanSC for Ohana.
Edit: Thanks guys above. :D
Fair call, they should not make such big changes like that. I'm glad they took out the islands though, what are map makers thinking when they make maps with islands in them?
Then Blizzard added really long narrow paths to the islands with 6x6 rocks blocking the ramp, completely changed the texturing (super contrasted two-tone style). (this one: http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg).
Then I made the same changes as they did (minus the shitty aesthetics) and came up with this. (this one: http://i.imgur.com/MBmSlwn.jpg).
Basically what has annoyed me is that Blizzard didn't give myself or Semmo (the author of Frost) the same courtesy they gave the winners of the original TLMC, in that they made changes to our maps instead of letting us make the changes like they did with IronmanSC for Ohana.
Edit: Thanks guys above. :D
To be fair, they didn't contact monitor about the changes to Korhal Compound in TLMC1 either.
Then Blizzard added really long narrow paths to the islands with 6x6 rocks blocking the ramp, completely changed the texturing (super contrasted two-tone style). (this one: http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg).
Then I made the same changes as they did (minus the shitty aesthetics) and came up with this. (this one: http://i.imgur.com/MBmSlwn.jpg).
Basically what has annoyed me is that Blizzard didn't give myself or Semmo (the author of Frost) the same courtesy they gave the winners of the original TLMC, in that they made changes to our maps instead of letting us make the changes like they did with IronmanSC for Ohana.
Edit: Thanks guys above. :D
To be fair, they didn't contact monitor about the changes to Korhal Compound in TLMC1 either.
I might be wrong (I don't remember that well) wasn't it added to ladder with no changes and then changed afterward? It was just the natural choke if I recall correctly? I don't know. That is true, though.
Then Blizzard added really long narrow paths to the islands with 6x6 rocks blocking the ramp, completely changed the texturing (super contrasted two-tone style). (this one: http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg).
Then I made the same changes as they did (minus the shitty aesthetics) and came up with this. (this one: http://i.imgur.com/MBmSlwn.jpg).
Basically what has annoyed me is that Blizzard didn't give myself or Semmo (the author of Frost) the same courtesy they gave the winners of the original TLMC, in that they made changes to our maps instead of letting us make the changes like they did with IronmanSC for Ohana.
Edit: Thanks guys above. :D
To be fair, they didn't contact monitor about the changes to Korhal Compound in TLMC1 either.
I might be wrong (I don't remember that well) wasn't it added to ladder with no changes and then changed afterward? It was just the natural choke if I recall correctly? I don't know. That is true, though.
It was added to ladder with changes, there were no changes made after it hit ladder. It was natural choke amongst other little things iirc.
i like the original, but i prefer blizzards version. For 2 main reasons. Because each side has a different tile set it is much easier on the eyes i feel. I like the original evergreen look but i completely understand not only from a player but a viewers perspective on why the two toned look. Remember Dual Sight. Thing is Blizzard could have maybe been a little bit more subtle with the tile-sets.
The other reason is the islands. I liked lost temple but as a zerg getting the islands is tough with the few amount of bases. The same is here. I like that i can plan to take that expansion without having to account for upgrades just to acquire it. And it can still be used as an island expansion early on.
I really can't honestly work out why they did that they did to Yeonsu. The only reason I liked it was it changed things up and now the texturing looks rather obnoxious and the fact they've removed the island I think is stupid.There's not a single map on ladder with islands despite there being no reason in HoTS to not have them. Air is stronger for all races and drops are good for all races as well, there's very little reason to constrict variety like this.
Why would you bother having different maps if they all play the same?
Why claim using a Team Liquid Map Making Contest winning map if you then butcher it through and through ? The two tones aesthetics are ugly. Please use eTcetRa revamped version on ladder or give the map another name.
On August 24 2013 06:26 Qikz wrote: I really can't honestly work out why they did that they did to Yeonsu. The only reason I liked it was it changed things up and now the texturing looks rather obnoxious and the fact they've removed the island I think is stupid.There's not a single map on ladder with islands despite there being no reason in HoTS to not have them. Air is stronger for all races and drops are good for all races as well, there's very little reason to constrict variety like this.
Why would you bother having different maps if they all play the same?
Pretty much this... Islands aren't nearly as much of a problem in Heart as they were in Wings, with the increased versatility of mutalisk play and stargate play combined with the structure of this map really promotes different styles of play.
It just makes me sad
Edit: And their effort is so lazy. They remove a bunch of non-pathable cliffs but don't even bother to retexture the low-ground afterward. It is this kind of thing that is off-putting aswell..
Pretty much this... Islands aren't nearly as much of a problem in Heart as they were in Wings, with the increased versatility of mutalisk play and stargate play combined with the structure of this map really promotes different styles of play.
Disagree: • widow mines • turrets • range/armor for turrets • island may be occupied only by brood lords
On August 24 2013 06:26 Qikz wrote: I really can't honestly work out why they did that they did to Yeonsu. The only reason I liked it was it changed things up and now the texturing looks rather obnoxious and the fact they've removed the island I think is stupid.There's not a single map on ladder with islands despite there being no reason in HoTS to not have them. Air is stronger for all races and drops are good for all races as well, there's very little reason to constrict variety like this.
Why would you bother having different maps if they all play the same?
Well we have had red city, korhal sky island, klontas mire, etc.All recently and all played differently, all got veto'd by 90% of people because they are bad maps, the variety you want has been delivered already, with poor results. Islands are a bad idea imo.
Pretty much this... Islands aren't nearly as much of a problem in Heart as they were in Wings, with the increased versatility of mutalisk play and stargate play combined with the structure of this map really promotes different styles of play.
Disagree: • widow mines • turrets • range/armor for turrets • island may be occupied only by brood lords
Everything you mentioned were Wings problems except for mines. There are options
- Use them Mutaseer snipe skills that Zerg players use everywhere else. - Nydus was a pretty good option to take them and harass them aswell, there were spots to place a nydus that a PF couldn't even get to. - Protoss air is pretty good and out-ranges them (mostly). - Islands are blinkable. Blink in and snipe. - Terran? Well you are Terran too. Do the same thing lol. - Mech is a good option on this map, siege on nearby mid-ground, scan and snipe turrets/mines, then drop.
On August 24 2013 06:26 Qikz wrote: I really can't honestly work out why they did that they did to Yeonsu. The only reason I liked it was it changed things up and now the texturing looks rather obnoxious and the fact they've removed the island I think is stupid.There's not a single map on ladder with islands despite there being no reason in HoTS to not have them. Air is stronger for all races and drops are good for all races as well, there's very little reason to constrict variety like this.
Why would you bother having different maps if they all play the same?
Well we have had red city, korhal sky island, klontas mire, etc. All recently and all played differently, all got veto'd by 90% of people because they are bad maps, the variety you want has been delivered already, with poor results. Islands are a bad idea imo.
Theres a difference between variety and creating poor results, and then there's poorly designed variety and poor results. Atleast the other maps had a chance to work.
I think there are far too few true islands on the maps and thus the changes made by Blizzard to that Frost map seem to be bad. They also cleared off the "decoration" of the plateaus on the side and they seem useable now. That might seem like a neat idea to hide production, but I dont think anyone would use it.
Islands are not a problem IMO, because no one uses them anyways and there are plenty of aerial harrassment methods available for all races.
On August 24 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote: I think there are far too few true islands on the maps and thus the changes made by Blizzard to that Frost map seem to be bad. They also cleared off the "decoration" of the plateaus on the side and they seem useable now. That might seem like a neat idea to hide production, but I dont think anyone would use it.
Islands are not a problem IMO, because no one uses them anyways and there are plenty of aerial harrassment methods available for all races.
It's not just an Island on Yeonsu. It's a zerg 4th base (since the one close to main by air is not even an option to take). Zerg was just supposed to 3 base all'in every game or play a macro game were his 4th was ages delayed and harder to defend.
Yeah I'd like cross spawns only on Frost. Having to take a 4th towards your opponent if players spawn in bottom and top right could really be a problem
On August 24 2013 18:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah I'd like cross spawns only on Frost. Having to take a 4th towards your opponent if players spawn in bottom and top right could really be a problem
Go to the other corner of the map. Seriously. Why bother having 4 player maps if you're just going to force spawns?
God damn I really hate how SC2 map design has forced people into thinking they can never move out to another corner of a map, it really pisses me off.
On August 24 2013 18:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah I'd like cross spawns only on Frost. Having to take a 4th towards your opponent if players spawn in bottom and top right could really be a problem
Go to the other corner of the map. Seriously. Why bother having 4 player maps if you're just going to force spawns?
God damn I really hate how SC2 map design has forced people into thinking they can never move out to another corner of a map, it really pisses me off.
Good luck taking a 4th base on the other side of the map as zerg or terran.
On August 24 2013 18:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah I'd like cross spawns only on Frost. Having to take a 4th towards your opponent if players spawn in bottom and top right could really be a problem
Go to the other corner of the map. Seriously. Why bother having 4 player maps if you're just going to force spawns?
God damn I really hate how SC2 map design has forced people into thinking they can never move out to another corner of a map, it really pisses me off.
Good luck taking a 4th base on the other side of the map as zerg or terran.
Terran has bunkers, planetaries and turrets (and defensive tanks/mines as mech). Zerg has spine crawlers/spore crawlers which are the best static defense in the game for cost and also have nydus' that you could transport units to your bases to (although you don't need to due to being so mobile).
On August 24 2013 18:08 Zygno wrote: I really dislike both watchtowers on Yeonsu, especially because they're on the high ground.
Removing the towers on Yeonsu is the one thing I would have liked to see Blizzard change, not other stuff they have done. I often added and removed those towers during development.
Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
On August 25 2013 05:30 ant885 wrote: Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
Just don't open Nexus first then if you can't scout. It's not stupid and it certainly isn't going against competitive gaming.
You don't have to open super greedy on every single map. It's nice to have maps that make people scout more and change their openings to reflect that. Why bother with 4 player maps if there's only two spawns. it's dumb.
On August 24 2013 18:07 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah I'd like cross spawns only on Frost. Having to take a 4th towards your opponent if players spawn in bottom and top right could really be a problem
Go to the other corner of the map. Seriously. Why bother having 4 player maps if you're just going to force spawns?
God damn I really hate how SC2 map design has forced people into thinking they can never move out to another corner of a map, it really pisses me off.
i agree, players need to experiment with expanding away from their bases. you don't need to "ninja expand" its just a smart expansion if you know how to spread armies up, defending and counterattacking as needed.
On August 25 2013 07:14 VayneAuthority wrote: blink stalker all-ins are a joke now anyway now that widow mine play is so prevalent. 1 widow mine in their mineral line and it's gg.
basically if you don't see a nexus before 27 supply you should expect to get gayed by stargate play/blink all-in etc and build widow mines.
And that's why I build my Nexus at 26 when I Blink Stalker rush, lol.
I like the Resupply Tanker map. It reminds me a lot of how 2v2's worked on Python in Brood War when the allies are close by air.
Otherwise, glad they took out Star Station and Neo Planet S, I'm going to miss Korhal Sky Island and Red City. Very happy that Akilon Wastes is here to stay. The new 1v1 maps are very interesting, with Polar Night being my favorite of the three.
On August 25 2013 05:30 ant885 wrote: Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
and whats to stop 6pool if you already know exactly where your opponent is? (insert huge map here)
people only complained about spawn location because of that one fucking antiga shipyard map.
On August 25 2013 05:30 ant885 wrote: Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
and whats to stop 6pool if you already know exactly where your opponent is? (insert huge map here)
people only complained about spawn location because of that one fucking antiga shipyard map.
Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, I'm sure theres a few more. Did people bitch about spawns on Delta Quadrant?
On August 25 2013 05:30 ant885 wrote: Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
and whats to stop 6pool if you already know exactly where your opponent is? (insert huge map here)
people only complained about spawn location because of that one fucking antiga shipyard map.
Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, I'm sure theres a few more. Did people bitch about spawns on Delta Quadrant?
Every zerg I know bitched about that map in general (me being one of them :D).
But yeah there was metal/shattered temple and I want to say there was another one but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.
On August 25 2013 05:30 ant885 wrote: Why aren't more people opposed to 4 player maps not forcing cross spawns?
Asymmetric scouting due to sheer luck is pretty stupid from a competitive standpoint IMO, and makes for some silly coinflip games (nexus first vs 6pool etc)
and whats to stop 6pool if you already know exactly where your opponent is? (insert huge map here)
people only complained about spawn location because of that one fucking antiga shipyard map.
The fact that you can 9 scout and get to your opponents base in time to not 17 nexus. Whereas on WW you can scout horizontal, zerg scouts vertical, finds you and you don't find him - insta build order win, it's silly.
It works both ways, forge first vs hatch first -cannon rush.
CC first vs standard opening (you just start out behind, whereas if you can scout you can drop the nexus before cyber etc), CC first vs 10 gate (rain vs bomber)
Asymmetric scouting just creates stupid games and imo leaves no real room for competitive integrity, blind advantages are bad.
Pretty much this... Islands aren't nearly as much of a problem in Heart as they were in Wings, with the increased versatility of mutalisk play and stargate play combined with the structure of this map really promotes different styles of play.
Disagree: • widow mines • turrets • range/armor for turrets • island may be occupied only by brood lords
Everything you mentioned were Wings problems except for mines. There are options
- Use them Mutaseer snipe skills that Zerg players use everywhere else. - Nydus was a pretty good option to take them and harass them aswell, there were spots to place a nydus that a PF couldn't even get to. - Protoss air is pretty good and out-ranges them (mostly). - Islands are blinkable. Blink in and snipe. - Terran? Well you are Terran too. Do the same thing lol. - Mech is a good option on this map, siege on nearby mid-ground, scan and snipe turrets/mines, then drop.
On August 24 2013 06:26 Qikz wrote: I really can't honestly work out why they did that they did to Yeonsu. The only reason I liked it was it changed things up and now the texturing looks rather obnoxious and the fact they've removed the island I think is stupid.There's not a single map on ladder with islands despite there being no reason in HoTS to not have them. Air is stronger for all races and drops are good for all races as well, there's very little reason to constrict variety like this.
Why would you bother having different maps if they all play the same?
Well we have had red city, korhal sky island, klontas mire, etc. All recently and all played differently, all got veto'd by 90% of people because they are bad maps, the variety you want has been delivered already, with poor results. Islands are a bad idea imo.
Theres a difference between variety and creating poor results, and then there's poorly designed variety and poor results. Atleast the other maps had a chance to work.
Fair call again, i guess ill respectfully bow out at this stage Again i do not approve of the changes being made in this fashion, Chin up cobber.
On August 26 2013 01:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Someone tell me why people vetoed Korhal Sky Island?
From what I gather, a lot of people hated that it was a two-in-one map and played completely differently depending on your spawns. As a spectator, I thought it was pretty awesome and would love to see an experimental season where there are only four maps, but each one is a two-in-one like Korhal Sky Island. Maybe that's a bit too experimental, though.
On August 26 2013 01:59 BaltA wrote: When is the ladder closing? ANyone knows?
I actually like the fact that they kept Shakuras Plateau in with some modifications as long as they did, it was actually a really fun map to play on.
I always thought that on the spawns on Sky Island that were flanked by collapsible rocks/towers, you could take either adjacent expansion for your third and it would just take more effort to scout both locations. On the other spawns I'd expand vertically to the rock main for my third, collapse the side facing my enemy, and then use that natural as my fourth if I needed it.
In the end I do want another two-in-one map though, with better thirds if it suits everyone else.
On August 25 2013 07:14 VayneAuthority wrote: blink stalker all-ins are a joke now anyway now that widow mine play is so prevalent. 1 widow mine in their mineral line and it's gg.
basically if you don't see a nexus before 27 supply you should expect to get gayed by stargate play/blink all-in etc and build widow mines.
And then an Immortal all-in comes and your Mines are useless and you die!
On August 25 2013 07:14 VayneAuthority wrote: blink stalker all-ins are a joke now anyway now that widow mine play is so prevalent. 1 widow mine in their mineral line and it's gg.
basically if you don't see a nexus before 27 supply you should expect to get gayed by stargate play/blink all-in etc and build widow mines.
And then an Immortal all-in comes and your Mines are useless and you die!
What are peoples first impressions on the new maps?
I really liked Yeonsu, its a pretty standard and compact map but the layout is interesting enough and its pleasing to look at. Frost and Polar night are both way bigger than I expected and the third bases feel a little awkward right now, especially on polar night where I have basically have 3 options to choose from.
Polar night feels like map with easy 5 bases and hilarious amounts of air space to compensate for that. Yeonsu in it's butchered (visually, i do not like full islands anyway) form is... shortly, it feels standard. Also, i did not notice, but did not Blizzard made those collapsible rocks at that (let's call it 3rd base) close the ramp completely and not half way like in original version? Frost... well, if it had original textures it would be best 4 player map evah, P. S. Strangely, i had FPS issues with Crux Polar Night (original version) even on low settings. On Polar Night LE everything is alright even on high O_o.
Does any Protoss player has a good way to wall in vs zerg on polar night? If you go for the standard wall in with zealot block, you get awkwardly stuck between your nexus and forge/gateway so like two stalker can attack while the zerg has the best concave on the other side :/
as I am very sensitive to light, 2 of the 3 new maps are instant vetoes for me. i hate snow/ice maps with a passion. frost is okay, because only the main bases are somewhat brighter. yeonsu is the most terrible of them all, because one part of the map is dark and the other one is made of pure terror. polar night also is non-playable, even if I toy around with the gamma settings.
I know that I'm part of a very very small minority, but it still sucks. The good thing is that with only five playable maps I can focus more on specific builds on every map.
On August 27 2013 01:15 IronManSC wrote: I love that blizzard did the same thing to Yeonsu what they did to Ohana - take the map, say it's good, then overhaul the textures.
You forgot Frost. And compared to version on KR server Polar Night LE also feels like map with changed textures (to the better side IMO).
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The 3rd with rocks looks super safe to take as P/T.
It's still early, but I think I dislike Frost the most. I hate maps that are so dark you can't make it out on the minimap or, if you are not playing in a pitch black darkness. Polar Night I would love to love, because I think we need small two player maps, but it just feels weird and I've yet to get a third up, because boosted medivacs take about a second to reach it(I'm Z).
On August 27 2013 01:43 juusoko wrote: It's still early, but I think I dislike Frost the most. I hate maps that are so dark you can't make it out on the minimap or, if you are not playing in a pitch black darkness. Yeonsy seems the most legit.
Frost and dark? someone misconfigured his gamma settings lol Drops on Polar Night are looking to be painful though.
The forward 3rd base on Yeonsu is pretty hard to hold i think (as Zerg). Just played a TvZ where he burrowed widow mines at bottom and dropped with marines behind the minerals. (Just like earlier in WoL on Taldarim with Tanks). But i love every other thing on this map (and also on the others^^).
On August 27 2013 01:57 ArkanTos wrote: The forward 3rd base on Yeonsu is pretty hard to hold i think (as Zerg). Just played a TvZ where he burrowed widow mines at bottom and dropped with marines behind the minerals. (Just like earlier in WoL on Taldarim with Tanks). But i love every other thing on this map (and also on the others^^).
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The only third you can take is the one in the corner. You need to break 2 rocks to get it but even with a FFE into phoenix opening (which is the worst to break rocks) I could start my nexus at 10:00 which is decent. It's a safe third, but you still can't take it too early, unlike Akilon wastes.
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The 3rd with rocks looks super safe to take as P/T.
They force you to go out in the open with your army and stand there for a long amount of time, giving you two choices: a) Go out too early, remain out of position for a long time and risk losing all your sentries (or forcing T to delay their third until they have enough marines to clear the rocks) b) Go out later than usual and end up behind in macro
Additionally, rocks at the third base outright kill any kind of fast third build for P, without anything to compensate.
Finally, all that air space makes mutas and drops INSANELY strong, more so than even Star Station and Derelict Watcher (which is impressive)
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The only third you can take is the one in the corner. You need to break 2 rocks to get it but even with a FFE into phoenix opening (which is the worst to break rocks) I could start my nexus at 10:00 which is decent. It's a safe third, but you still can't take it too early, unlike Akilon wastes.
Taking third too early together with easy 4 bases is the main reason Akilon sucks (especially considering, that getting 5th on that map is painful as zerg, unless you go full Soulkey and double expand@10:00 against void ray into 3 stargates into zealot archon void ray with storm). Also, alternative third (i am talking the one on the side, not one forward to opponent) is not star station open either IMO.
On August 27 2013 00:35 GumBa wrote: So the new maps any good? Reviews out of a terran perspective?
Frost is horrible to play. It's so huge that you will have hard time pressuring Protoss/Zerg whilst they can do pretty much anything they want. Then again, it's so big that Zerg will have hard time defending drops in the lategame. Protoss can still teleport units all around the damn map.
Polar Nights is pretty huge as well. Coupled with the fact that if the rock base is taken as a fourth it will be pretty much undroppable. Neither of the maps strikes me as a favorable for Terran. Maybe Frost on some spawns is slightly better, but Cross is such a pain.
The 3rd map feels pretty okayish for both match ups.
yeonsu is a good map for ambush and flank tactics as opposed to 1 control group army movement. lots of ways to reposition your army and a few places where you can overextend and get caught from multiple angles. having good spotting seems fairly important on this map.
frost is more traditional SC2 map design in that you can kind of just waltz out into the middle with your whole army and kind of just spot in front of you since theres not many ways for the enemy to move behind your army without you knowing and there's a lot of open space, making flanks a little less threatening.
i think that polar night does promote aggressive strategies since the middle of the map is so open and focused on the high ground that controlling it is just a matter of numbers rather than tactics. if you take control of either of the watchtowers, it's going to be much easier to deny your opponent from expanding further or moving out to deny your expansions. so i wouldn't say that it's "hard to take a third base," but i think the best way to get it is to work for it by getting aggressive.
On August 27 2013 04:09 Aocowns wrote: So on that frost map, protoss can wall off with 2 pylons just above my ramp and cannon rush me? okay lol, guess that's one easy veto
On August 27 2013 04:09 Aocowns wrote: So on that frost map, protoss can wall off with 2 pylons just above my ramp and cannon rush me? okay lol, guess that's one easy veto
Screenshots, please.
edit: I'm not the guy that was complaining, I just have pictures.
On August 27 2013 04:09 Aocowns wrote: So on that frost map, protoss can wall off with 2 pylons just above my ramp and cannon rush me? okay lol, guess that's one easy veto
Screenshots, please.
Cannons at the top of the ramp, fully walled:
Cannon at the natural, fully walled:
Way too much surface area for it to be something imbalanced IMO.
I get too mad over stupid shit like that when it does happen that it's worth keeping it. Like fuck me if I'm going to sit there keeping vision of my ramp in case the protoss decides to cannon rush it. You have to react pretty much instantly if you're going to deny on top of the ramp it seemed to me. Happened the very first time I played it I immediatly flashbacked to the days where there were no depots on ramps
On August 27 2013 05:22 Aocowns wrote: I get too mad over stupid shit like that when it does happen that it's worth keeping it. Like fuck me if I'm going to sit there keeping vision of my ramp in case the protoss decides to cannon rush it. You have to react pretty much instantly if you're going to deny on top of the ramp it seemed to me. Happened the very first time I played it I immediatly flashbacked to the days where there were no depots on ramps
Your problems, you miss out on really great map :D
I like the new maps, but blink is waaaaaay too strong against terran (and probably in pvp too). Just the danger of blink allins is too big here. there is so much surface area to cover, it simply can´t be done and it´s hard to figure out if your opponent actually goes for blink if you are not that lucky to scout the twillight. I wonder when mapmakers will start to put this ability into account, creating maps. All of them are like Antiga Shipyard in this regard, but with way bigger main bases, which even increases the strength of blink....
blink actually seems really weak on polar night since all terrans go for like 3/4 raxes before factory on this map with the short distances...Oracle proxies are what you have to watch out for there.
1 base terran play is pretty brutal on this map, still haven't figured out a way to stop it (low masters atm) The timing on a 2 rax 2 medivac push on this map off 1 base is insane with the short distances, not even nexus cannon can save you since elevator is so easy.
I think I have to veto it until there is a way to stop the 1 base play. Every terran is starting to catch on and doing it
i wish the new maps didn't have watch towers, improves the quality of a map so much not having free vision of a large part of the map ;_; RIP Neo Planet S
I think Frost would be better if it served as a replacement to Whirlwind, but having two large 4 player macro maps is a bit much. I also wish there were some three spawn maps ;x
Polar Night seems like it would be a nightmare as protoss but Yeonsu is like a protoss dream map for blink all-ins D:
On August 27 2013 09:19 VayneAuthority wrote: blink actually seems really weak on polar night since all terrans go for like 3/4 raxes before factory on this map with the short distances...Oracle proxies are what you have to watch out for there.
1 base terran play is pretty brutal on this map, still haven't figured out a way to stop it (low masters atm) The timing on a 2 rax 2 medivac push on this map off 1 base is insane with the short distances, not even nexus cannon can save you since elevator is so easy.
I think I have to veto it until there is a way to stop the 1 base play. Every terran is starting to catch on and doing it
I for myself try to train my mechanics, not to play abusive builds D: and the way the mainbases are setup on those maps is just an invitation for the protoss to blink in and do serious dmg...
Polar nights is awful. I can't believe someone would make such a map in 2013. -Open ass third -Forward expansions and few of them -rocks everywhere -abusable cannon positions.
Might as well call it Xelnaga Caverns Part II. Ugh.
On August 27 2013 23:16 shid0x wrote: Polar night is horrible. Played first games on it,Protoss night no thank you.
lol what? this map is completely terrible for protoss. As I already explained, there is an unstoppable 1 base push a lot of terrans are already abusing on this map at masters.
I've been having a lot of trouble with Blink all-ins in TvP on Yeonsu. The long shape of the main is giving me fits figuring out where to place Bunkers and how to see it coming in enough time to pull the SCVs. How are people defending that particular build on that map? Every other map and matchup has been okay for me (holy SHIT is Polar Night an aggressive map - I have to dig out my 2-base timing builds again).
On August 28 2013 00:12 TXRaunchy wrote: With the lack of maps and the same duration of season, its going to get boring vetoing 3 maps and playing on 4 for the next 2-3 months...
You can veto old maps for a bit so you play the new ones ..and then unveto those maps later on
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The 3rd with rocks looks super safe to take as P/T.
Additionally, rocks at the third base outright kill any kind of fast third build for P, without anything to compensate.
Finally, all that air space makes mutas and drops INSANELY strong, more so than even Star Station and Derelict Watcher (which is impressive)
Free 4th seems a good compensation to me and if being able to drop/harass is bad ..then it's game fault not map (well actually is toss design fault T_T, LoTv please save us!).
I've seen zergs vetoing this map (Polar) after 1 game just because "the nat ramp is so far from the main, fuxx this!".
If people is so scared by such minor differences well ..i'm seriously scared by their attitude :| .
On August 27 2013 01:21 KalWarkov wrote: PvZ impossible on Polar Night, 1 game and downvote
Don't remind me of my wall-in that included natural's CC as part of it (as a terran, obv). Also, what exactly is impossible? Wall-in? i believe it is possible, but hard as **** to do on bottom spawn.
walling in is fine when u use brain. taking a 3rd is impossible though
Why exactly? And no, argument 'i want to take 3rd with 1 sentry, 1 zealot in wall and 1 MSC' does not work.
The 3rd with rocks looks super safe to take as P/T.
Additionally, rocks at the third base outright kill any kind of fast third build for P, without anything to compensate.
Finally, all that air space makes mutas and drops INSANELY strong, more so than even Star Station and Derelict Watcher (which is impressive)
Free 4th seems a good compensation to me and if being able to drop/harass is bad ..then it's game fault not map (well actually is toss design fault T_T, LoTv please save us!).
I've seen zergs vetoing this map (Polar) after 1 game just because "the nat ramp is so far from the main, fuxx this!".
If people is so scared by such minor differences well ..i'm seriously scared by their attitude :| .
But... but my ladder points... they are what help drive back the crushing despair... HOW WILL I GET ENUFF LADDER POINTZ TO BE TEH PWNZRZ IN REEL LIFE?!?!?!
In all seriousness, I don't understand why everyone is complaining about these maps. So you can't go cookie-cutter on every map in the pool. Heaven forbid you learn a more-than-one amount of build orders, and doubly forbid that you learn to adapt a strategy to specific map features that change from game to game.
Polar night seems like a hard map to play a macro game on for a toss.
I played a couple of pvts today(high M) and terrans abused the SHIT out of dropping and doing 2 pronged attacks early on. I almost never cheese or all in unless I have to and the 10min attack with a medivac or 2 in the main and a second attack in natural was hell. A terran managed to kill my natural nexus because the medivacs take shorter to return to army than my defending stalkers in main.. Also TWO ROCKS?! Not one but two freaking destructible rocks to take a third unless of course you want your third to be as "easy" as taking a gold base in wol.
PvZ is no cakewalk either.. Open third that can't be walled off if your life depended on it and big areas everywhere. Not to mention muta harass because the main and natural are so far apart and the airspace.
Curse my no veto policy! Might have to break that very soon.
On August 28 2013 09:04 brain_storm wrote: Polar night seems like a hard map to play a macro game on for a toss.
I played a couple of pvts today(high M) and terrans abused the SHIT out of dropping and doing 2 pronged attacks early on. I almost never cheese or all in unless I have to and the 10min attack with a medivac or 2 in the main and a second attack in natural was hell. A terran managed to kill my natural nexus because the medivacs take shorter to return to army than my defending stalkers in main.. Also TWO ROCKS?! Not one but two freaking destructible rocks to take a third unless of course you want your third to be as "easy" as taking a gold base in wol.
PvZ is no cakewalk either.. Open third that can't be walled off if your life depended on it and big areas everywhere. Not to mention muta harass because the main and natural are so far apart and the airspace.
Curse my no veto policy! Might have to break that very soon.
Tip of the day: there is wallable 3rd on the side. But yep, mutas and drops on polar night will piss off everyone and his dad.
Tip of the day: there is wallable 3rd on the side. But yep, mutas and drops on polar night will piss off everyone and his dad.
Yeah you're right but another thing is that the current meta in pvz is roach,hydra comps which means any good zerg can figure out that it takes a long time for a toss army to move between the natural and third, which inevitably means that a few roaches can brake that wall and slip in your third while your off fighting an army in natural.
Tip of the day: there is wallable 3rd on the side. But yep, mutas and drops on polar night will piss off everyone and his dad.
Yeah you're right but another thing is that the current meta in pvz is roach,hydra comps which means any good zerg can figure out that it takes a long time for a toss army to move between the natural and third, which inevitably means that a few roaches can brake that wall and slip in your third while your off fighting an army in natural.
I really dislike Yeonsu. So stressful, you have to worry about blink harassment, low ground, seige tanks and ling run-by's with 4 points of attack. If this map makes it into competitive tournament map pools I'll be very surprised.
Also I actually really like Polar Night, but it's just unwinable (for me) in PvZ only played 8 games vs Z on it but I lost 7 of them, that was enough for me to veto. Shame too cause I really enjoyed the PvT and PvP on that map.
I really like Polar Night so far. Just seems fairly different from the normal,boring maps I've played on last season. Yeonsu has been very entertaining to play on as well. Haven't faced the dreaded blink all in though. Frost seems huge and incredibly boring.
On August 30 2013 10:50 Greendotz wrote: I really dislike Yeonsu. So stressful, you have to worry about blink harassment, low ground, seige tanks and ling run-by's with 4 points of attack. If this map makes it into competitive tournament map pools I'll be very surprised.
Also I actually really like Polar Night, but it's just unwinable (for me) in PvZ only played 8 games vs Z on it but I lost 7 of them, that was enough for me to veto. Shame too cause I really enjoyed the PvT and PvP on that map.
All 7 ladder maps are using for the WCS Season 3, so you shoul not be surprised.
Wish they'd get rid of at least Whirlwind, and kept Neo Planet S or Red City.
Polar Night is a terrible map..
I'll also throw in that I hope that next season has more variety in maps. Frost is great imo, and Yeonsu seems pretty balanced. The rest can GTFO, I'm sick of Akilon Wastes and Bel'shir. Derelict Watcher is ok, I guess..
yea if I have to play on bel'shir one more time I'm gonna cry. seems like I get that map every game and it's terrible. Hate any map with 2 main paths, the pathing always gets fucked up
On September 02 2013 09:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: So why the hate for Akilon Wastes?
That and Bel'shir both lead to incredibly stale games with lack of variety and they're just really boring maps to watch/play on at this point.
Maps need to be constantly rotated to keep the game interesting and evolving. It's why proleague is so damn good, they cycle pretty much all the maps in a quick time period.
GSL and WoL was almost ruined for me purely because Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom and Ohana were in the map pool for what felt like 2 years and every game on them played out exactly the same every single time.
On September 02 2013 09:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: So why the hate for Akilon Wastes?
That and Bel'shir both lead to incredibly stale games with lack of variety and they're just really boring maps to watch/play on at this point.
Maps need to be constantly rotated to keep the game interesting and evolving. It's why proleague is so damn good, they cycle pretty much all the maps in a quick time period.
GSL and WoL was almost ruined for me purely because Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom and Ohana were in the map pool for what felt like 2 years and every game on them played out exactly the same every single time.
I agree with this we need a constant rotation of maps to keep things interesting. The problem comes when the new maps we get suck as in the case currently. Yeonsu isn't too bad and its base layout is interesting and leads for some interesting tactics. Polar Night is completely retarded though and was obviously designed by Blizzard. Frost isn't too bad but it is kinda too big and I think it's kind of boring
polar night is more of a spectator's map then one you want to play on. I have high hopes for it when it comes to professional play, but it is really quite terrible to play on
On September 02 2013 10:31 VayneAuthority wrote: polar night is more of a spectator's map then one you want to play on. I have high hopes for it when it comes to professional play, but it is really quite terrible to play on
This, this, i have come to the idea that many people like to watch starcraft being played by professionals in non-standard maps, but they don't like playing on those maps since playing on those maps means that they have to be much more active trough the game, and what they want is just to sit and macro at their base make some drops and then throw their armies at one each other, and while the players start to become more good at the game and advance leagues that feeling tends to disappear in most guys (but it still remains in some) and they start to want more dynamic and less easily defendable maps so they can enjoy more of the early and midgame with timing attacks, pushes and all-ins.
On September 02 2013 10:31 VayneAuthority wrote: polar night is more of a spectator's map then one you want to play on. I have high hopes for it when it comes to professional play, but it is really quite terrible to play on
This, this, i have come to the idea that many people like to watch starcraft being played by professionals in non-standard maps, but they don't like playing on those maps since playing on those maps means that they have to be much more active trough the game, and what they want is just to sit and macro at their base make some drops and then throw their armies at one each other, and while the players start to become more good at the game and advance leagues that feeling tends to disappear in most guys (but it still remains in some) and they start to want more dynamic and less easily defendable maps so they can enjoy more of the early and midgame with timing attacks, pushes and all-ins.
Why not both?
3 maps that are experimental/not standard which are balanced but require a new playstyle so they can be vetoed, then rest of maps are standard.
I think Polar Night is just hell for Protoss in general. If there's a playstyle that would allow multifaceted Protoss, Zerg and Terran play (i.e. you have at least some choice of strategy, not just resorting to something like 2 base timing) on that map or any map in general, I don't care how nonstandard it is, I'll play it.
What I like about Sky Island, for example, is the ability to either 2 base timing as Protoss, or (if spawning at 1:30 and 7:30), ninja expand to one of the unused mains and collapse the rocks. I want maps like that.
My vetoes (so far) are Derelict Watcher, Whirlwind, and Polar Night.
I think Polar Night could be potentially awesome to watch in tournaments, but right now it's too far out there for me to try and figure out with my limited time to play SC2 at the moment. :c Whirlwind I'm just tired of, and there's another big 4 player map in Frost to replace it with (I'll see how things go with Frost, only played 1 game on it so far). Derelict Watcher is... just an awful map IMO.
In other news, I'm really hoping we see Akilon Wastes disappear soon, but it's not unplayable so it remains in my pool for now. Just really silly and BGH-esque.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rAwf1aEl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ge9wWCLl.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/ENP8KBXG06FF1377034378547.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/U1SKB6VGX47E1377038398934.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/51ERVE9HS70M1377038428826.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OB0S4II.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/agpQpr5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/pjaenew6q/SC2_2013_07_30_04_39_30_697.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/b7mb4romq/SC2_2013_07_30_04_39_32_952.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/h7a28f9f6/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_16_830.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/f6jinld9u/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_27_360.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/ypo3wyc1e/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_29_214.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/mqh73dvua/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_32_614.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/8zcq166wi/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_35_202.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/4c6nzejjm/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_36_569.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/t803mw67m/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_40_876.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/hk61sch2q/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_42_611.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s11.postimg.org/v3mvy1v1u/SC2_2013_07_30_04_40_53_706.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yNl0zFH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/69/AbyssalCity.jpg/400px-AbyssalCity.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/22YBcYl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Klu6veg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LCpjwAP.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E2G9v2o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZRxVLZ4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VntXN0P.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NvWz3zZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MBh4TLH.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vyJWWh9.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/f/fa/Polarnight.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/69/AbyssalCity.jpg)
