The first round of the WCS Korea Challenger league (previously known as Code A) has been played out, with a portion of the matches being aired on GomTV. The unaired matches were also played at the GomTV studio.
Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
I really do enjoy seeing the whole "elephant" thing disproven time and again as hyperbolic nonsense. Certainly lots of great players on Kespa teams, but eSF shows time and again that they have lots of great players too.
yay for DRG, still in yay for jjakji dont want him to retire yay for MKP, good old MKP, but poor prime, byun and creator not in wcs now. Team ofcourse experiencing huge problems( result wise) I guess coach fault, based on gstl choice of players Poor Coca, but since he found a team, he will be fine now. Yoda is strong and happy for ex-ZeNEX players liked the team. And yay for Life ofc. at least still in.
agree pvp is now watchable and sometimes interesting to watch. zvz still sucks tho imho. maybe even worse with hots,cuz of mutas not only they were used a lot, but also cuz of not logic spore buff and not used cuz of it. kinda stupid same as hellbats for T, which are still healed by medivacs. lil bit offtopic tho :D
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
KT players who aren't Flash are notorious for never being able to do anything in individual leagues.
On July 14 2013 08:40 StarStruck wrote: Toss Stornk. CoCa and ZerO losing heh. Then again it was to Vampire who's playing really frigging good and Killer heh. Tough luck boys.
Meanwhile Creator continuing his battle with mediocrity in HOTS.
Wow, some really interesting results here... it seems like the skill level between esf/kespa has somewhat leveled off, or at least not on the top end of the spectrum.
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
KT players who aren't Flash are notorious for never being able to do anything in individual leagues.
He is 10-7 in PvP in Proleague so it doesn't really justify that claim.
Even a loss counts for 1 more game than Yonghwa has played, experience is sometimes the key factor
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
KT players who aren't Flash are notorious for never being able to do anything in individual leagues.
He is 10-7 in PvP in Proleague so it doesn't really justify that claim.
Proleague is irrelevant to his claim and as a KT fan we routinely do well at team leagues and suck at individuals (barring Flash).
Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
KT players who aren't Flash are notorious for never being able to do anything in individual leagues.
He is 10-7 in PvP in Proleague so it doesn't really justify that claim.
Proleague is irrelevant to his claim and as a KT fan we routinely do well at team leagues and suck at individuals (barring Flash).
Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
So Yongwa would fit KT well then, for he has excactly the same problem for a long time, the guy is insanely good with alot of bad luck, i for one am not suprised to see him beat a protoss. IM has a rather strong protoss line itself. And as First is proving the IM protosses arent behind in pvp in any way compared to those that play in Proleague.
On July 14 2013 11:59 Scarecrow wrote: Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
Out of the 24 matches played here, only 8 of them involved players who dropped down from Code S. And out of those 8 players, half were ESF and half were Kespa. And out of the 4 ESF players who dropped down from Code S, only 2 of them won their matches, while out of the 4 Kespa players who dropped down from Code S, all 4 of them won their matches (though it's noted that only 2 of those matches were Kespa vs. ESF).
In other words, ESF doing well in Challenger has pretty much nothing to do with a lot of them dropping from Code S. Most of the ESF wins were from ESF players not coming down from Code S. Nice try, though.
That is, assuming I'm understanding the symbols on the brackets correctly (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Challenger#Bracket_Stage). The S next to the player's name means they dropped from Code S, right?
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
KT players who aren't Flash are notorious for never being able to do anything in individual leagues.
He is 10-7 in PvP in Proleague so it doesn't really justify that claim.
Even a loss counts for 1 more game than Yonghwa has played, experience is sometimes the key factor
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Proleague isn't an individual league.
On July 14 2013 08:43 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: PIGBABY ON TO BEAT GUMIHO 2-0 NOW. I BELIEVE. Beats roro, rain, zest, 2-0 ragnarok. time to add another victim !
Gumiho will have bacon nightmares by the time PIGBABY is done with him.
I was really enjoying Ragnarok's playstyle, it's sad to see him in Code B now. Also sad to see that Hurricane didn't make it through seeing how good he was doing in GSTL.
On July 14 2013 11:59 Scarecrow wrote: Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
Out of the 24 matches played here, only 8 of them involved players who dropped down from Code S. And out of those 8 players, half were ESF and half were Kespa. And out of the 4 ESF players who dropped down from Code S, only 2 of them won their matches, while out of the 4 Kespa players who dropped down from Code S, all 4 of them won their matches (though it's noted that only 2 of those matches were Kespa vs. ESF).
In other words, ESF doing well in Challenger has pretty much nothing to do with a lot of them dropping from Code S. Most of the ESF wins were from ESF players not coming down from Code S. Nice try, though.
That is, assuming I'm understanding the symbols on the brackets correctly (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Challenger#Bracket_Stage). The S next to the player's name means they dropped from Code S, right?
Seems like you didn´t saw " last few seasons" on his post.
On July 14 2013 11:59 Scarecrow wrote: Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
Out of the 24 matches played here, only 8 of them involved players who dropped down from Code S. And out of those 8 players, half were ESF and half were Kespa. And out of the 4 ESF players who dropped down from Code S, only 2 of them won their matches, while out of the 4 Kespa players who dropped down from Code S, all 4 of them won their matches (though it's noted that only 2 of those matches were Kespa vs. ESF).
In other words, ESF doing well in Challenger has pretty much nothing to do with a lot of them dropping from Code S. Most of the ESF wins were from ESF players not coming down from Code S. Nice try, though.
That is, assuming I'm understanding the symbols on the brackets correctly (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Challenger#Bracket_Stage). The S next to the player's name means they dropped from Code S, right?
Seems like you didn´t saw " last few seasons" on his post.
Alright, fine. If we ignore all matches involving players who were in the last few seasons of Code S, it's ESF 6-2 Kespa (counting only Crazy vs. Sleep, Jjakji vs. Trust, Paralyze vs. Dream, Avenge vs. Argo, Bang vs. Bunny, Swagger vs. Zero, True vs. JYP, and sC vs. Songduri). It's also worth noting that many of the ESF players who fell out of Code S in the last few seasons were eliminated by other ESF players.
On July 14 2013 11:59 Scarecrow wrote: Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
Out of the 24 matches played here, only 8 of them involved players who dropped down from Code S. And out of those 8 players, half were ESF and half were Kespa. And out of the 4 ESF players who dropped down from Code S, only 2 of them won their matches, while out of the 4 Kespa players who dropped down from Code S, all 4 of them won their matches (though it's noted that only 2 of those matches were Kespa vs. ESF).
In other words, ESF doing well in Challenger has pretty much nothing to do with a lot of them dropping from Code S. Most of the ESF wins were from ESF players not coming down from Code S. Nice try, though.
That is, assuming I'm understanding the symbols on the brackets correctly (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Challenger#Bracket_Stage). The S next to the player's name means they dropped from Code S, right?
Seems like you didn´t saw " last few seasons" on his post.
Alright, fine. If we ignore all matches involving players who were in the last few seasons of Code S, it's ESF 6-2 Kespa (counting only Crazy vs. Sleep, Jjakji vs. Trust, Paralyze vs. Dream, Avenge vs. Argo, Bang vs. Bunny, Swagger vs. Zero, True vs. JYP, and sC vs. Songduri). It's also worth noting that many of the ESF players who fell out of Code S in the last few seasons were eliminated by other ESF players.
Isn't it depressing to see so few "non established-names" advancing ? Basically, the 2 no-names advancing, advanced through beating 2 other no-names. (P)Ruin 2 - 0 (P)Balloon (T)Bang 2 - 0 (T)Bunny[Name]
Bunny isn't really that much of a no name. He almost made it to code S last season through the up and down groups after beating Last in the first round of Code A last season and went 4-1 in Round 6 of Proleague. He looks to be a regular player in CJ's lineup
But it happens every season. Bracket luck is always a factor that can come into play.
also, just because you don't really know who someone is doesn't mean they aren't good.
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
Considering how apparently strong is First in the match-up and he probably practiced with Yonghwa before match against Rain it's not so big of a surprise.
On July 14 2013 05:39 Mackus wrote: Biggest surprise for me is Yongwa beating Stats - Purely because of the amount of PvP's Kespa players have had to play out in proleague that's a massive result for the IM player.
Jjakji vs Life easily tie of the next round.
Considering how apparently strong is First in the match-up and he probably practiced with Yonghwa before match against Rain it's not so big of a surprise.
Yonghwa needed years to recover from his Artosis curse and he´s still suffering.
On July 14 2013 11:59 Scarecrow wrote: Also not surprised ESF is doing well in Challenger with how many of them have been dropping from Code S the last few seasons. Glad herO[join] got through :D
Out of the 24 matches played here, only 8 of them involved players who dropped down from Code S. And out of those 8 players, half were ESF and half were Kespa. And out of the 4 ESF players who dropped down from Code S, only 2 of them won their matches, while out of the 4 Kespa players who dropped down from Code S, all 4 of them won their matches (though it's noted that only 2 of those matches were Kespa vs. ESF).
In other words, ESF doing well in Challenger has pretty much nothing to do with a lot of them dropping from Code S. Most of the ESF wins were from ESF players not coming down from Code S. Nice try, though.
That is, assuming I'm understanding the symbols on the brackets correctly (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Challenger#Bracket_Stage). The S next to the player's name means they dropped from Code S, right?
Seems like you didn´t saw " last few seasons" on his post.
Alright, fine. If we ignore all matches involving players who were in the last few seasons of Code S, it's ESF 6-2 Kespa (counting only Crazy vs. Sleep, Jjakji vs. Trust, Paralyze vs. Dream, Avenge vs. Argo, Bang vs. Bunny, Swagger vs. Zero, True vs. JYP, and sC vs. Songduri). It's also worth noting that many of the ESF players who fell out of Code S in the last few seasons were eliminated by other ESF players.
This kespa vs esf shiat needs to fucking stahp.
Oh, I agree. I guess I was making the problem worse there, but it simply annoyed me on principle that Scarecrow, a well-established Kespa fanboy, tried to cheaply take away from the results here by implying that ESF was only doing well because a bunch of their players got eliminated from Code S lately, especially because the statement isn't really even true. If people want to pull shit like that then I think I'm justified in proving them wrong when they're actually wrong.
On July 14 2013 05:51 Wpgstevo wrote: I really do enjoy seeing the whole "elephant" thing disproven time and again as hyperbolic nonsense. Certainly lots of great players on Kespa teams, but eSF shows time and again that they have lots of great players too.
Lots of <3 to both Kespa and eSF players!
Depends.
On the topic before, I'd said that within 6 months, half of the GSL Code S would be Kespa players. I got some flak for this comment from a couple of forum regulars who said it was nonsense. (This was ~Nov 2012 when there were only 5-6 Kespa players in Code S.) This season there were 17 (IIRC) Kespa players in the Ro32 WCS Korea. I was off by 2 months apparently.
eSF players are not inherently bad and some of them will always be good. Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players (certainly out of any tournament-winning professional player anyway). He just has a ridiculous amount of natural skill.
Now obviously eSF teams practice more/better than Stephano (just about everyone does) but I think the same concept applies. Kespa practices best (well, most Kespa teams practice better, but I'm sure eSF teams are improving in this area) so they have players who can become good through constant 14-hour practice days whereas eSF players have to rely more on natural talent.
I think the point we're at now is a pretty reasonable equilibrium and that the Kespa-eSF ratio probably won't change a whole lot any further, but I could be wrong.
On July 15 2013 04:38 kollin wrote: This is on at such terrible times for Korean viewers.
Did Wax start this meme or did it start elsewhere?
- Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players this isn't true
On July 14 2013 05:51 Wpgstevo wrote: I really do enjoy seeing the whole "elephant" thing disproven time and again as hyperbolic nonsense. Certainly lots of great players on Kespa teams, but eSF shows time and again that they have lots of great players too.
Lots of <3 to both Kespa and eSF players!
Depends.
On the topic before, I'd said that within 6 months, half of the GSL Code S would be Kespa players. I got some flak for this comment from a couple of forum regulars who said it was nonsense. (This was ~Nov 2012 when there were only 5-6 Kespa players in Code S.) This season there were 17 (IIRC) Kespa players in the Ro32 WCS Korea. I was off by 2 months apparently.
Well there's also the matter of nobody expecting that WCS would happen. Apparently, most Kespa players choose not to try their luck in the other regions. I'd imagine this is because the Kespa teams were already heavily invested in SPL and potentially having their players leave Korea for the offline ro16+ could cause problems.
non-Kespa players don't really have that commitment(though EG-TL still sent their top players...they were in sorry shape already though). So we lost MC, Nestea, Taeja, Hyun, Alive, Center, Ryung and HerO in the previous season of code A and a few others from code B like MVP.
Nearly all of those could've probably made code S or maintained code A. So that could also have accounted for greater numbers of Kespa players filling up code A/S spots.
Even more left this season too which is why so many Kespa players made it into code A if you look at the qualification brackets. Though I will concede that Kespa numbers did skyrocket in the last season of WoL in qualifying for the next code S season at 12/32 (Rain and Last were seeds so I'm not counting them).
On July 15 2013 07:19 rift wrote: - Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players this isn't true
I don't know how true it is now, but after winning his first tournament in 2011, he said he played '4 hours a day'. That's very low for somebody winning hundreds of thousands of dollars.
On July 15 2013 07:19 rift wrote: - Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players this isn't true
I don't know how true it is now, but after winning his first tournament in 2011, he said he played '4 hours a day'. That's very low for somebody winning hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Being the crucial word. I also recall him saying he played about 8 when he was properly practicing. I don't think he's ever really been a hardcore grinder by foreign standards, but he practices more than is perceived (or has in the past anyway). Unless he is a rather freakish outlier, it seems unlikely that he could have competed at that level for so long with a 4 hour a day regime.
On July 15 2013 07:19 rift wrote: - Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players this isn't true
I don't know how true it is now, but after winning his first tournament in 2011, he said he played '4 hours a day'. That's very low for somebody winning hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Being the crucial word. I also recall him saying he played about 8 when he was properly practicing. I don't think he's ever really been a hardcore grinder by foreign standards, but he practices more than is perceived (or has in the past anyway). Unless he is a rather freakish outlier, it seems unlikely that he could have competed at that level for so long with a 4 hour a day regime.
Didn't he say once that number of hours he is practicing a day fluctuates quite a bit? Also I wonder how that number changed after he went to EG.
On July 15 2013 07:19 rift wrote: - Stephano has managed to remain one of the best foreign SC2 players in the world while having probably one of the least rigorous practice schedules out of professional players this isn't true
I don't know how true it is now, but after winning his first tournament in 2011, he said he played '4 hours a day'. That's very low for somebody winning hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Being the crucial word. I also recall him saying he played about 8 when he was properly practicing. I don't think he's ever really been a hardcore grinder by foreign standards, but he practices more than is perceived (or has in the past anyway). Unless he is a rather freakish outlier, it seems unlikely that he could have competed at that level for so long with a 4 hour a day regime.
Didn't he say once that number of hours he is practicing a day fluctuates quite a bit? Also I wonder how that number changed after he went to EG.
From recollection the lowest value I've heard him quoted on is 4 hours a day when he#s not taking a break from playing altogether (which he has in the past done), and the highest is 8.
I do feel Stephano's mentality towards the game and various other attributes helps him gets results above and behind the sheer hours he puts in when compared to other pros, but equally don't believe that he doesn't practice hard
EPT
Pigbaby 2 - 0 
RagnaroK
GuMiho 2 - 0 
and happy for ex-ZeNEX players 
