|
On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals).
Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal...
|
On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal...
That's silly. To show it, let's make an analogy. If we were to increase the nexus cost to 800, we would not buff or nerf a single unit. It just changes the timing at which P can take expansions. Do you think that would not change balance?
It's the same with hellbats in TvP and TvZ, the opportunity cost is much higher, so it weakens T in the MU.
|
On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal...
I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.)
|
well, i dont really do helldrops. i use hellbats for defense behind bunkers and to buffer damage with bio. i honestly liked how the hellbats were being used, i dont think they were op and just needed to be figured out. on the other hand, i love the change made to the banshee. the banshee is still prob my favorite unit, i use them two at a time. i didnt really mind the cost, wouldve preferred a faster cloak. in the long run i think more people will op for the blue flame which is what i always do and will make the hellbats more interesting
|
On July 12 2013 15:01 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal... I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.)
Removal of the upgrade is NOT a buff, because it didnt change the unit one bit. Sure it "buffed" the race because it removed that necessity, but it isnt really a buff .... unless you define buff as "anything that makes it easier to win", but then you have to call a nerf to other races a buff and that would be too silly.
The term buff usually applies to "improving the stats of another player in an MMO" (they have lots of entries for the term in the urban dictionary ... and none in Liquipedia), which was the first game-related definition I found. So it really should apply to "anything that lets the unit perform better". Simply changing the timing by changing build time or removing an upgrade and giving it to you for free should not be called a buff when talking about the unit ... it is only a buff to the race.
|
In theory, you have 100 additional gas to spend during that time, cause before you have been spending that on banshee upgrade. It is a buff, because it affects timing in the way you have more gas during that.. You timing will be stronger with additional 100 gas. In practice, however, 100 free gas does not create viable build order, with certain set of buldings and addons.
|
On July 12 2013 16:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:01 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal... I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.) Removal of the upgrade is NOT a buff, because it didnt change the unit one bit. Sure it "buffed" the race because it removed that necessity, but it isnt really a buff .... unless you define buff as "anything that makes it easier to win", but then you have to call a nerf to other races a buff and that would be too silly. The term buff usually applies to "improving the stats of another player in an MMO" (they have lots of entries for the term in the urban dictionary ... and none in Liquipedia), which was the first game-related definition I found. So it really should apply to "anything that lets the unit perform better". Simply changing the timing by changing build time or removing an upgrade and giving it to you for free should not be called a buff when talking about the unit ... it is only a buff to the race.
It is a buff to Terran, since Terrans do benefit from it greatly. While you needed double gas to have defensive tanks early you now don't need to do it. You can play defensive tanks with one gas just fine and you got siege mode already researched. Besides it not being a buff on the unit itself , it is a buff in defence and gameplay.
You can play greedier/more economical and still be save. (For example see LucifroNs one gas tank build). Another fact that keeps being mentioned are the timings, while I disagree that there are timings buffed by it in TvP and TvZ, the 1-1-1 allin if you don't face 1-1-1 yourself in TvT are certainly greatly buffed by 100 less-gas that needs to be spend and earlier siege.
|
On July 12 2013 16:36 NightOfTheDead wrote:
In theory, you have 100 additional gas to spend during that time, cause before you have been spending that on banshee upgrade. It is a buff, because it affects timing in the way you have more gas during that.. You timing will be stronger with additional 100 gas. In practice, however, 100 free gas does not create viable build order, with certain set of buldings and addons.
100 more gas = gas for earlier lair, difference between cloak and no cloak on banshee, having a robo or no robo. 100 gas in the early game is a big deal. obv it doesnt help the unit tank itself which is more needed than free siege mode so blizz should look into that.
|
On July 12 2013 16:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 16:08 Rabiator wrote:On July 12 2013 15:01 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal... I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.) Removal of the upgrade is NOT a buff, because it didnt change the unit one bit. Sure it "buffed" the race because it removed that necessity, but it isnt really a buff .... unless you define buff as "anything that makes it easier to win", but then you have to call a nerf to other races a buff and that would be too silly. The term buff usually applies to "improving the stats of another player in an MMO" (they have lots of entries for the term in the urban dictionary ... and none in Liquipedia), which was the first game-related definition I found. So it really should apply to "anything that lets the unit perform better". Simply changing the timing by changing build time or removing an upgrade and giving it to you for free should not be called a buff when talking about the unit ... it is only a buff to the race. It is a buff to Terran, since Terrans do benefit from it greatly. While you needed double gas to have defensive tanks early you now don't need to do it. You can play defensive tanks with one gas just fine and you got siege mode already researched. Besides it not being a buff on the unit itself , it is a buff in defence and gameplay. You can play greedier/more economical and still be save. (For example see LucifroNs one gas tank build). Another fact that keeps being mentioned are the timings, while I disagree that there are timings buffed by it in TvP and TvZ, the 1-1-1 allin if you don't face 1-1-1 yourself in TvT are certainly greatly buffed by 100 less-gas that needs to be spend and earlier siege.
It's buff. HT got nerf when blizzard removed that ugrate.
|
On July 12 2013 16:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:01 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal... I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.) Removal of the upgrade is NOT a buff, because it didnt change the unit one bit. Sure it "buffed" the race because it removed that necessity, but it isnt really a buff .... unless you define buff as "anything that makes it easier to win", but then you have to call a nerf to other races a buff and that would be too silly. The term buff usually applies to "improving the stats of another player in an MMO" (they have lots of entries for the term in the urban dictionary ... and none in Liquipedia), which was the first game-related definition I found. So it really should apply to "anything that lets the unit perform better". Simply changing the timing by changing build time or removing an upgrade and giving it to you for free should not be called a buff when talking about the unit ... it is only a buff to the race.
The removal of an upgrade is a nerf. The removal of the upgrade cost and having the vanilla unit come with the upgrade is a buff. The stats of the units are increased: The vanilla tank has an additional ability.
|
On July 12 2013 16:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 16:08 Rabiator wrote:On July 12 2013 15:01 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal... I don't know whether ppl redefining the meaning of buff or not, but Siege mode removal is a 'buff'. Isn't it? terran players don't need to spend 100/100, 80s anymore. (but i agree that this buff did not make a significant difference.) Removal of the upgrade is NOT a buff, because it didnt change the unit one bit. Sure it "buffed" the race because it removed that necessity, but it isnt really a buff .... unless you define buff as "anything that makes it easier to win", but then you have to call a nerf to other races a buff and that would be too silly. The term buff usually applies to "improving the stats of another player in an MMO" (they have lots of entries for the term in the urban dictionary ... and none in Liquipedia), which was the first game-related definition I found. So it really should apply to "anything that lets the unit perform better". Simply changing the timing by changing build time or removing an upgrade and giving it to you for free should not be called a buff when talking about the unit ... it is only a buff to the race. It is a buff to Terran, since Terrans do benefit from it greatly. While you needed double gas to have defensive tanks early you now don't need to do it. You can play defensive tanks with one gas just fine and you got siege mode already researched. Besides it not being a buff on the unit itself , it is a buff in defence and gameplay. You can play greedier/more economical and still be save. (For example see LucifroNs one gas tank build). Another fact that keeps being mentioned are the timings, while I disagree that there are timings buffed by it in TvP and TvZ, the 1-1-1 allin if you don't face 1-1-1 yourself in TvT are certainly greatly buffed by 100 less-gas that needs to be spend and earlier siege.
My point was that the siege tank buff is not very meaningful apart from early defense and TvT. The unit itself is too weak, compounded with the fact that vipers, swarm hosts, and immortals hard-counter them way too much.
Tanks make up the core the of Terran mech play, do they not? If the core is weak, then the playstyle is also weak, which discourages many players to use it.
|
On July 12 2013 11:59 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). Thank god, finally someone make the difference between buff/nerf and timing change. I don't consider this patch will affect balance at all, only timing will be changed. I don't know why people cry so much about this patch, it's not a big deal...
How about we put the bonus dmg to light from banelings into an upgrade on the infestation pit then? wouldn't be a big deal either I guess?
|
There is so many alternative units you can use until the hellbat upgrade is done. For exemple drop marines or helion or mine who will do exactly the same dommage than a drop hellbat. So this patch don't affect the balance of the race, that just change the composition army early game. For banshee 100mineral 100 gas at this period of time of the game (around 7 min ) that won't change anything. This patch will not change the balance of the game or win/ration of terran. Seriouly I don't know why Blizzard do patch in that way, if they wanted change timing I will agree with Blizzard but this patch don't change anything in term of balance.
|
On July 12 2013 23:42 Mura19 wrote:
There is so many alternative units you can use until the hellbat upgrade is done. For exemple drop marines or helion or mine who will do exactly the same dommage than a drop hellbat. So this patch don't affect the balance of the race, that just change the composition army early game. For banshee 100mineral 100 gas at this period of time of the game (around 7 min ) that won't change anything. This patch will not change the balance of the game or win/ration of terran. Seriouly I don't know why Blizzard do patch in that way, if they wanted change timing I will agree with Blizzard but this patch don't change anything in term of balance.
hahaahahahahahhaahhaahahahah
sry but your post is so wrong
|
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
|
On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
|
On July 13 2013 00:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
Demuslim never complained about allins. He complained about tvp mid - lategame.
|
On July 13 2013 00:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
bullshit, at least for TvP. With MSC allowing extreme greediness in the early game, Protoss has clearly the upperhand in midgame and lategame until terran gets with a miracle a really high ghost/viking count. Protoss has the better and easier to execute harassment options and the stronger standing midgame army.
I don't expect a lot of PvT loses with the new patch. But if some Terran manages to find the new way of TvP that's working reliable and somewhat robust against allin, I would be more than pleased with it.
|
On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Couldn't agree more, Terran can't touch at any state of the game and thats just silly. The deathball of toss was always dominating terran lategame, but you had at least some chances to do early damage. Now this is impossible and beating toss in a even fight in lategame is almost impossible.
|
On July 13 2013 00:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
I disagree with that. Protoss can certainly play long, macro games and win, like Rain, for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
