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On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or make Terran mech viable against Protoss.
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On July 13 2013 00:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
You could nuke all one base all-ins in PvT and Protoss would have zero problem in the match-up. As it stands now, the myriad of existing one-base all-ins are just a comfortable bonus for Protoss, netting tons of free wins at each Terran's misstep. I know so many GM Protoss which almost never build a Nexus in PvT and can still remain competitive it's not even funny.
The worst thing is that many of those all-ins remain a major threat with strong odds to prevail even when scouted, which makes zero sense since a scouted one-base all-in should have very low chances to succeed if the defender prepares accordingly. And to add insult to injury, many of those all-ins are guaranteed so much damage anyway that they can still be salvaged in a macro game: Protoss drops a Nexus upon finding he won't break Terran's defence, and everything is forgiven since Terran is contained for years until Medivacs (naturally you just can't have 9'45 Medivacs with all the necessary defensive measures to hold the initial attack(s)), at which time Protoss has already superior natural saturation and AoE out.
Was the pre-Immortal buff 1-1-1 era on maps like XNC fun for you? I guess not, so why would it be OK when your side is the one having all the easy coinflips?
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On July 13 2013 01:01 WeRRa wrote:
Couldn't agree more, Terran can't touch at any state of the game and thats just silly. The deathball of toss was always dominating terran lategame, but you had at least some chances to do early damage. Now this is impossible and beating toss in a even fight in lategame is almost impossible.
Maybe, just maybe, use drops to contain toss on 2 bases and then push with 160/170 vs 140 supply due to mules while being 2 base as well. I see this playstyle more and more often in tourneys and always feel frustrated, because I don't see way to defend against this TvP playstyle other than ninja expo/ just all-in. There are ways to do so, but I don't see them...
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On July 13 2013 01:20 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:01 WeRRa wrote:
Couldn't agree more, Terran can't touch at any state of the game and thats just silly. The deathball of toss was always dominating terran lategame, but you had at least some chances to do early damage. Now this is impossible and beating toss in a even fight in lategame is almost impossible. Maybe, just maybe, use drops to contain toss on 2 bases and then push with 160/170 vs 140 supply due to mules while being 2 base as well. I see this playstyle more and more often in tourneys and always feel frustrated, because I don't see way to defend against this TvP playstyle other than ninja expo/ just all-in. There are ways to do so, but I don't see them...
It can work against Colossi, but not zeals/archons/storm.
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On July 13 2013 01:10 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or make Terran mech viable against Protoss.
Last time Blizzard tried they killed mech viability against zerg.
Perhaps it's better they just stick to balancing bio.
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On July 13 2013 01:39 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:10 jkim91 wrote:On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or make Terran mech viable against Protoss. Last time Blizzard tried they killed mech viability against zerg. Perhaps it's better they just stick to balancing bio.
I hear hellbats are pretty good against zerg when used with tanks.
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Most of the problems I see Terrans having with allins stem from their insistence on making a third CC or dual engineering bays into dual upgrades on 1 rax. Yeah, Protoss dies to allins too if they expand twice or make 2 forges off 1 gateway.
Simply building a missile turret in both mineral lines kills DT and Oracle allins. Immortal/Voidray busts die horribly to any build that actually builds a second rax before tech and upgrades. The blink allin has to be completely unscouted to work, as it's highly dependent on sniping stim research to work at all. If you see it in advance just lift your expo and put bunkers in your main, he can expand but he's still going to die because his units are all useless once you get stim.
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On July 13 2013 00:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or you can look the other way, well thought all-ins are what keeping Protoss a viable race. And that's really bad. DeMuslim is the worst guy preparing to defend all-ins, and he admits it, he doesn't thinks about it.
Finally someone who understand the game. Thank for your comment.
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On July 13 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:39 pmp10 wrote:On July 13 2013 01:10 jkim91 wrote:On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or make Terran mech viable against Protoss. Last time Blizzard tried they killed mech viability against zerg. Perhaps it's better they just stick to balancing bio. I hear hellbats are pretty good against zerg when used with tanks.
You heard wrong then.
Mech TvZ was a lost cause even without the hellbat nerf if only because newkirk was going out of map-pools.
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On July 13 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:39 pmp10 wrote:On July 13 2013 01:10 jkim91 wrote:On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
Or make Terran mech viable against Protoss. Last time Blizzard tried they killed mech viability against zerg. Perhaps it's better they just stick to balancing bio. I hear hellbats are pretty good against zerg when used with tanks.
Mech TvZ is pretty much dead due to swarm host/viper
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On July 13 2013 02:27 Xequecal wrote:
Most of the problems I see Terrans having with allins stem from their insistence on making a third CC or dual engineering bays into dual upgrades on 1 rax. Yeah, Protoss dies to allins too if they expand twice or make 2 forges off 1 gateway.
Simply building a missile turret in both mineral lines kills DT and Oracle allins. Immortal/Voidray busts die horribly to any build that actually builds a second rax before tech and upgrades. The blink allin has to be completely unscouted to work, as it's highly dependent on sniping stim research to work at all. If you see it in advance just lift your expo and put bunkers in your main, he can expand but he's still going to die because his units are all useless once you get stim.
with this knowledge, you have to be grandmaster terran at the least. Please share some replays, were you demonstrate your overwhelming Terran play to us dumb folks.
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I always found it pretty ironic that Blizzard said that they will try to make mech viable, while giving both protoss and zerg the ultimate mech counters. I feel like someone didn't think this through.
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On July 09 2013 06:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:28 Radel wrote:
Seeing cloaked banshees again regularly would be kinda cool You probably don't play Protoss  But it's something we'll have to deal with, sure.
I meant more in high level competitive games. I do play protoss but I am not very good haha
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Is the patch live yet ? =(
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since yesterday i believe
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On July 13 2013 00:09 Snowbear wrote:
I really wonder when blizzard will fix tvp, since it's really unfair for terran.
Watch a terran pro stream. I guarantee you he will whine about protoss. Even demuslim said that it's just insane what they can do.
First of all: allins. Terran has to guess out of 7 possible allins. If you guess/scout right, then you got a small chance of holing it (cf. naniwa vs lucifron). An example is: dt into blinkstalker (very popular these days). It's really hard for terran to defend right against this.
In the midgame you can't attack. The mccore shuts down every agression, unless the toss makes no army. You can't drop either: mccore + tosses learned to place observers at key spots. Then go into lategame? Nope. 10 spreaded hts. Emp 80% of them: nicely done, but 2 are left, and storm your army to dead.
But but but.... Allin! Nope, also not possible. The mccore shuts it down too.
I'm really happy with the hellbat nerf. It will bring the terran winrate in tvp down to where it actually is, and that's definately not 50%.
I really think it's time for a ghostbuff.
MsC has always been a bandaid fix that causes a lot of problems, mostly Nexus Cannon. But, MsC has also done some good by adding an entirely new dynamic and fixed the scouting disparity between races.
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On July 13 2013 04:22 Ambre wrote:
Is the patch live yet ? =(
Yeah imo it is really weird that the game doesn't tell you balance changes were done, and patch notes also don't say anything in the launcher. Aditionally also the ingame news thingie doesn't mention anything. A terran not visitting TL/similar sites would only stumble by accident on it, and non-terrans have no way of noticing banshee cloak changes.
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On July 11 2013 15:56 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 05:48 MoonCricket wrote:On July 11 2013 04:05 rikter wrote:On July 11 2013 03:12 MoonCricket wrote:
While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often. You can already do 1 gas banshees. The new patch wont allow you to hit a crisp cloak timing off one gas. I'll have to look at the timing again, but Gas first should be able to pull it off I think. Gas first, followed by rax. While rax builds you mine 100 gas, build factory after. While factory finishes you mine another 100 gas. While starport finishes you mine another 100 gas, which lets you build a banshee right away. While the banshee builds you mine another 100 gas. Now, you can either start cloak and delay banshee 2 or you can delay cloak and start banshee 2. Either way you wont have the gas to maintain continuous production while also getting cloak. Basically you still need pretty much the same second gas timing.
Have you tried research Cloak, build Banshee #1 and then attack with Banshee #1 while Banshee #2 is building and Cloak will finish before Banshee #1 is in the red and while Banshee #2 is enroute?
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I used blueflame hellbat drops. No one expected it, and it worked very nicely. I have no complaints.
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On July 13 2013 03:36 Mehukannu wrote:
I always found it pretty ironic that Blizzard said that they will try to make mech viable, while giving both protoss and zerg the ultimate mech counters. I feel like someone didn't think this through.
yeah I must say I saw alot more mech in WoL lol
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EPT
