EPTOn July 09 2013 10:41 Rhaegal wrote:
why not just make tanks 2 supply? or do extra vs shields
why not just make tanks 2 supply? or do extra vs shields
Because then Terran would be broken?
Balance patch this week - Hellbats nerfed, Banshees buffed…
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Because then Terran would be broken? | ||
|
TeslasPigeon
464 Posts
How so? Vipers have blinding cloud which render tanks useless. Protoss have immortals, carriers, voids, and storm. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 09 2013 10:47 TeslasPigeon wrote: How so? Vipers have blinding cloud which render tanks useless. Protoss have immortals, carriers, voids, and storm. Because that a massive buff and the game is pretty well balanced right now. Why break something that isn't broken? I like immortals, but I don't want them to 2 suppy and beat all ground units. | ||
|
MacroNcheesE
United States508 Posts
| ||
|
Fission
Canada1184 Posts
| ||
|
syroz
France249 Posts
He is not that wrong. Its a strong nerf, it may be too much. With that, hellbat may vanish from the metagame. They will need a looot of tech to be actually good now, Blizzard could remove one of the last nerf as hellion transformation for instance (with is barely used nowadays despite the fun of it). | ||
|
highsis
259 Posts
The balance might be alright overal, but at the very top protoss has always been and will always underperfom unless some changes(like oracle speed) are introduced to increase the skill cap of the race. | ||
|
TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
| ||
|
midnight999
United States257 Posts
On July 09 2013 10:57 MacroNcheesE wrote: @Rockafella: Agreed, I'm Protoss and I think that the DT shrine is far too cheap. I disagree. I think it's fine now. | ||
|
TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On July 09 2013 11:02 highsis wrote: I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly hope protoss wins a tournament with this change. it's been almost a year and a half since Rain's victory and for P to win any Korean tourney. SOS's appearance in the WCS final was after 1 years and 3 months of no protoss presence in finals in korean tourneys. Even now top protoss progamers Rain and SOS's last 30 days winrate is underwhelming(in 50%s) compared to top zerg Soulkey and top Terran Innovation whos winrate are in 70%s. The balance might be alright overal, but at the very top protoss has always been and will always underperfom unless some changes(like oracle speed) are introduced to increase the skill cap of the race. Hold your horses man. Protoss just got their buff in the warp prism. Overall, this looks like a nerf to Terran which contradicts blizzard's statement that the game is balanced. Zerg players can more easily deal with the banshees the same way they deal with hellbats (queens and spores). | ||
|
UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On July 09 2013 11:01 syroz wrote: He is not that wrong. Its a strong nerf, it may be too much. With that, hellbat may vanish from the metagame. They will need a looot of tech to be actually good now, Blizzard could remove one of the last nerf as hellion transformation for instance (with is barely used nowadays despite the fun of it). Uhh, i kind of have to disagree with a few of your points. Its a strong nerf to the initial hellbats that weakens the hellbat drops and the marauder hellbat all in. Both of which should be manageable after this but still with potential to actually deal damage. Hellbat drops were, and still are since the patch isn't in effect yet, terrible for the game as it made it a joke of whoever makes more hellbats wins or that terran didn't make hellbats so he lost to the zerg. As for this being an overnerf? i doubt that as well since they can still get that same damage output with the blue flame upgrade. Meaning that mech will still be the same and any terran going mech can toss the gas they normally would have put into blue flame in WoL into this instead and then go do their hellbat drops. Will this drop hellbats out of the metagame? There is a high chance to see if reverting to banshees is better or not with the cloak cost cut. But i still feel as though hellbat drops wont disappear, 3 shotting a worker instead of 2 simply gives the defensive player more than a split second to actually move and control their workers out of the way before they get roasted which will help a LOT. As for reverting the hellion transformation nerfs that wont happen. Those nerfs happened to stop the marauder hellbat all in from hitting at an impossible defensive time for zergs, not to deal with hellbat drops like this nerf was aiming for. So essentially. Yeah this nerf was GREATLY needed and i'm going to actually start playing ladder again once this goes into effect. | ||
|
iGn1t3
Hong Kong73 Posts
| ||
|
TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
Edit: A lot of people seem to forget that you can drop in the late game... | ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
However, I REALLY like the possibilities it opens up for TvZ. Opening up early gas is fairly normal in TvZ (for Reapers). So you can't jump to the conclusion of Banshees. You will likely assume Reapers into Reactor Hellions into either a quick third CC or Bio with Medivacs and either Widow Mines or Hellbats. Now, Terran can also go for an mid-game Banshee into 3 CC or bio push. I feel like it will be played with a lot soon after the buff, but then it'll fall back into being something you bring out for a Bo5 or Bo7 (not a totally standard build, because I don't think it'd feel very strong overall due to the ease of getting out AA defense WITH detection). For TvT, the Banshee buff basically says you should probably get a blind Ebay, because now Cloak is affordable whether you shit on your economy or not to rush it out (or hold Scans and go Viking->Raven->Viking or Raven->Viking->Viking if you have a good number of Marines). I feel like TvT is going to go back into Banshee wars... I sense a lot of Marine Banshee Tank pushes incoming... T.T For TvP, we have nothing but losses here. Hellbat, nerfed for harass and mid-game Zealot-melting. Banshee, not likely to do a ton of damage anyways unless the Protoss player fucks up hard, which is how TvP can look silly as fuck to viewers when it is actually a fairly long and difficult matchup for Terran. You're probably actually better off getting a Banshee without Cloak... The Protoss is going to have so much detection by the time you get there. Hellbats needed a nerf, this much is certain. Where they are after this buff, I'm somewhat happy with (could drop the damage down to 16, but then they wouldn't 2-shot Lings I guess). Wasn't a big fan of Hellbats in late-game TvP (just wasn't a fan of them at all), but this is a depressing point... BLIZZARD, PLEASE BUFF MECH! T.T I really like Hellion mech in TvT (it actually does better than Hellbat Mech in a straight up fight unless I'm behind, which Hellbat Drops can easily do to you). I liked mech in WoL TvZ (sure as hell am not gonna do mech now cause Vipers rape the crap out of it). Why can't we have mech in TvP?! I'm perfectly down for nerfs to bio for that to happen (but I still want bio TvZ to be viable, since that is sick as fuck to watch when good bio players play the matchup; and it's also sick as fuck to play when you have a long, evenly matched game). Like FlaSh said, Tanks SHOULD be 2 supply, and should probably go back to doing 50 damage to all units (I don't care if they 1 shot Marines and this results in purely mech TvT, biomech TvT is boring as shit to both play and watch). Also, we should have a more committed AA unit than the Thor. We don't need a bloody anti-mech unit, the Thor does that well enough on its own (why the fuck you gave us the Warhound for 3 months instead of bringing back a Goliath rip-off when EVERYONE said that is what was needed goes beyond the normal depths of WoL era Blizzard stupidity). Also, Spider Mines would be sick as fuck to have back, though they would be massively overpowered. Widow Mines are nice and all, but the ability to plant disposable mines was amazing. I know the main reason they're against it (they want it to cost supply so that it breaks up the deathball), but that hasn't really been happening, and it ISN'T going to happen because players either won't use them beyond early harass or they will find a way to use them offensively. A Terran will drop at most 2 Widow Mines and a Bunker with 4 Marines at his third (8 Supply). It's more likely to just be 1 Bunker and MAYBE a Widow Mine (4-6 Supply). With Oracles, you never see them beyond the first 10 minutes of the game unless the Protoss kept his early Oracle alive and is very diligent about poking with it (VERY RARE). MAYBE, one day, a Protoss will make a mid to late-game Oracle and harass with it (most likely not with free Speed Warp Prisms warping in Zealots made with USELESS RESOURCES directly into the enemy base; whereas the Oracle costs a fair amount of gas). The "breaking up the deathball" plan has failed, and will always fail. Oddly enough, the actual answer to alleviate that problem, is to increase supply efficiency to levels experienced in Brood War, or to make dealthball compositions inherently weak, which isn't really possible unless you create maps with more chokes like Bel'shir Vestige and Red City (which are broke as fuck maps) AND increasing unit collision size, so can't have an entire army walk through the map easily. If maps and unit collision were designed in such a way that a large, maxed-out army attacking into pre-positioned, medium-sized army would almost never win, THEN players would be forced to thinking about splitting the army to either get a better engage or to harass a weaker location with some units to force the opponent out of that defensive position, enabling the rest of the army (or another small army) to move forward. If any of you remember how freakin' ridiculous it was to get an army through a choke (like a bridge) in Brood War, you'll understand what I'm getting at. It'd be funny if the ones to actually fix the deathball problem wasn't Blizzard, but the community map makers... It'd only make sense since Blizzard produces shitty maps and their ability to balance the game properly is terrible (especially to the ideals they're looking for). In the end, it's not really Blizzard who balances the game all the way, but the community, through both the players, and the maps they create. However, to do this, we would first need to remove certain OP spells... (Force Field, Fungal Growth, and Time Warp, since they all completely demolish the ability to micro and make attacking into, and fighting in, chokes 10x worse than they should be. Also, given the way Roaches and Hydras function, their supply efficiency would have to be greatly buffed as well, most likely through a reduction in supply cost and/or unit collision size, since a mass choke map would get them demolished against Protoss Colossi and 2 supply Terran Siege Tanks). | ||
|
bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
I don't think Hellbat will completely disappear. There will be some 2 fact blue flame multi-prong Hellbat drop build into mech. Blue flame hellions run by is still around.. TvT should be fixed now. I don't think banshee opening will be that strong, since you can probably open bio again. Good patch blizzard! | ||
|
Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
Good job blizzard. | ||
|
XDEKSDEEXD
622 Posts
| ||
|
Serpico
4285 Posts
On July 09 2013 11:43 Kim Hyuna wrote: With banshee research reduced, I'm expecting every match up, not only TvT, they will spam cloak banshee every game. Good job blizzard. Yeah I don't see TvT being a decent matchup still, we'll see in time how it plays out. | ||
|
althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On July 09 2013 11:46 ottoottoottootto wrote: Wouldn't hellbats be a little weak without blue flame? But at least banshee buff is quite huge, many times you are researching it during early game, where resources are scarce They won't be as ridiculous, but they'll still be pretty strong. That said, I thought hellbat-dropping games were pretty exciting to watch - the problem to me was the ridiculously low cost of the hellbat, not the damage it does. Hellbat drops are like reaver drops, if reavers could be healed by shuttles and didn't cost gas. Now, they are just like all other drops, annoying, but not terrifying. | ||
|
Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
| ||
| ||
