EPTBalance patch this week - Hellbats nerfed, Banshees buffed…
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43774 Posts
On July 09 2013 06:33 shelfofjustice wrote: There seems to be a lot of people not quite understanding how Hellbats currently fit in to TvP. It is not the drops that are potent in the least (read: if you're losing to Hellbat drops as a Protoss you're just not paying attention), but rather the front line effectiveness, particularly against non-Colossus openers. The Hellbat adds some meat to the aggression before Protoss can get their dual AOE up, after which point you still need to transition to heavy Ghost Viking--the Hellbat's lack of upgrades means the unit simply falls behind the later the game goes. The vast vast vast majority of the time, you will not see Terrans go for Blue Flame--we will instead just invest more heavily into bio, and transition to Ghosts more quickly once again. You might--MIGHT--see some useage of Blueflame Hellbats in 2 base Marauder Hellbat all-ins, but frankly those aren't particularly great regardless. With only one path of playing, I'd expect PvT winrates to go up to the high 60% range in the coming months. Are you actually saying that Terrans can't get the blue flame upgrade before Protoss get both colossi and high templar out? Blue flame can easily be finished long before even one of thermal lance or psionic storm is done. So you invest a little more gas into starting an upgrade earlier. And you can't make two hellbats at a time for two whole minutes. Boohoo. Protoss is far more gas-heavy than Terran, and yet we somehow now manage to fit the mothership core into our early game, regardless of our tech paths. I think people are severely overreacting to the hellbat nerf. | ||
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theslayer922
Canada304 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 09 2013 06:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Are you actually saying that Terrans can't get the blue flame upgrade before Protoss get both colossi and high templar out? Blue flame can easily be finished long before even one of thermal lance or psionic storm is done. So you invest a little more gas into starting an upgrade earlier. And you can't make two hellbats at a time for two whole minutes. Boohoo. Protoss is far more gas-heavy than Terran, and yet we somehow now manage to fit the mothership core into our early game, regardless of our tech paths. I think people are severely overreacting to the hellbat nerf. Its like they are playing a different game where protoss gets 4 times as much gas as terran. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
1) I'd have liked the cloak research to become 150/150 more than 100/100. 2) I hope that once the blue flame research is done, hellbats will actually use blue flames ! | ||
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Taronar
Netherlands177 Posts
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On July 09 2013 06:28 Radel wrote: Seeing cloaked banshees again regularly would be kinda cool you won't, be sure! Banshees don't play any role in TvP for a reason way different than cloak research costs: they are already countered by everything protoss will get anyway. Even if Banshees had cloak right from the start without any research, it wouldn't make any difference in TvP, because you have the banshee ready at the same time you have a widow mine drop ready and even with more or less similar costs. So Protoss has to get detection at this particular timing anyway! If they wanted to bring more banshees to the table, perhaps a slight speed buff and an HP nerf on the banshee would've done it. So we have a buff to terran that does not affect any non mirror matchup (Oh I didn't talk about TvZ. Quick cloaked banshees are good to deny creep. If the zerg doesn't fuck up big time, that's everything they should accomplish. You don't need to be an expert to get that this is not enough for the cost.) and a huge nerf that affects TvP bigtime: Here I don't only mean the possibility of Hellbat drops - they can really turn around any game, if not dealt correctly, yes I totally admit that this is bullshit in any matchup - , I mean that Hellbats are a crucial part of the standard terran midgame composition right now. Protoss can play way more greedy with MSC defending 2 bases in the early against any attack for 100/100. That leads to a way more powerful midgame for protoss, than it used to be in WoL. Protoss will have more tech, more harassment potential (especially with the cheap DT shrine and WP speed buff), more of everything, if they play a good build and if they want to. (Tails DT drop into dbl forge into coloss comes into mind). Terrans already have a hard time dealing with that, if they don't crush the protoss economy early with widow mine and hellbat drops. Now we have 2 problems: A: One of those drop options is massively nerfed and I'm unsure if it will be still viable. B: We have a much weaker mid game army for terran. If you really think the 100/100 saved money on banshee cloak research can compensate for that, you might be either very optimistic or plain dumb. This patch shows very little understanding of Blizzard for their very own game. We had this with the queen patch last year and this might be another change that ruins a whole matchup. EDIT: and don't get me wrong. I was hoping for a hellbat nerf rather sooner than later, because I can't stand the QQ from Protoss and Zerg (while they have pretty good options to deal with them) and much more because TvT is such a mess with it. But without any real compensation it just sucks to be terran. Banshees are not better with that, we just safe a 100/100 when going cloak. It seems like Blizzard is making fun of us terrans, because this cannot be taken seriously. A 100/100 safe on an unnessecary tech for an unnessecary unit for nearly halfing the damage on a key unit in both non mirrors (until now Hellbat instead of Widow mines were at least somewhat viable in TvZ)???? I'm really frustrated and please guys, don't come with comments "the metagame has to evolve", "Terrans will find other strategies" and so on. We had this shit with the queen patch and we all knew how the metagame evolved and how successful those other strategies were in the end. I was right back then and I'm pretty sure, I'm right again. -_- | ||
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Azurues
Malaysia5612 Posts
really what needed imo | ||
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
 Does that mean that we will have blue flame Hellbats ? Will be interesting to watch... | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
and now everyone goes banshees because u always force scans and turrets with ur banshee and it makes the 100/100 worth without actually doing dmg | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On July 09 2013 06:15 magnaflow wrote: Will the flame be blue? Read the thread bro. They will be blue. | ||
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freerolll
Belgium1056 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420576 | ||
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Eliezar
United States481 Posts
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On July 09 2013 06:58 Prog455 wrote: Does anyone know if they will reduce cargo size aswell? Now that they are not as strong it would be appropriate to change the completely arbitrary cargo size. I get the feeling that four hellbats per 'vac would still be overpowered unless they disable the heal. | ||
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CountZero71
Germany89 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43774 Posts
On July 09 2013 07:01 Daralii wrote: I get the feeling that four hellbats per 'vac would still be overpowered unless they disable the heal. I'm actually surprised that Blizzard didn't just remove the medivac healing, and keep everything else the same. | ||
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FridayNext
Germany13 Posts
On July 09 2013 03:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I see it as removing "automatic damage" and making it slightly risky (which is what should happen with any race's harassment options, imo). That's totally what I think, they were way too cost effektiv and easy to (/didn't need any) contoll, especially in the early game. | ||
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