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On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T..
Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game?
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On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T..
.... it still 3 shots probes. It's not like the drones won't die, you just won't kill the entire line instantly with two hellbats.
It'll take 2 seconds instead ^^
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On July 09 2013 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T.. Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game?
Teamliquid, where people cannot see the connection between midgame harass and an asymmetrically designed matchup
honestly, what a dumbass question
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On July 09 2013 03:07 Daswollvieh wrote:Your move Innovation. 
Given he was already dropping all over the place in Code S WoL with no afterburners, no hellbats and no mines, I think he'll be fine.
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On July 09 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 05:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 05:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:29 zhurai wrote:
how many hits does it take for hellbats to kill a zealot now?
It went up from 5 to 9. Without the upgrade. But Zealots still trade like crap with Hellbats on mass due to the AOE. Proof? It's something to test, and could be the case, but I haven't seen it yet. 9 shots is a lot... They both do the same amount of damage, except that zealots do it with two hit(9 damage, twice) and the Hellbat does it in an AOE. It means that is all about the angle, but multiple hellbats can hit a several zealots per shot, while a single zealot can only work on a single hellbat.
The attack cooldowns surely differ, hellbat fires every 2 seconds, the zealot every 1.2 seconds. And the Zealot has 15 more health.
+ Show Spoiler +
So, both do 18 damage. (Zealot 132/150 - Hellbat 117/135 )
1.2 - Zealot reaches 36 damage.
2 - Hellbat reaches 36 damage.
2.4 - Zealot reaches 54 damage.
3.6 - Zealot reaches 72 damage
4 - Hellbat reaches 54 damage
4.8 - Zealot reaches 90 damage
6 - Zealot reaches 108 damage, hellbat reaches 72 damage.
7.2 - Zealot reaches 126 damage
8 - Hellbat reaches 90 damage
9 - Zealot reaches the required 135 damage to kill a hellbat.
Theoretically, you still need 2 overlapping AOE's to kill a Zealot (how well do they line up?). But previously a hellbat narrowly beat a zealot 1 on 1.
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Do you think this makes straight mech without hb drops stronger? I'm talking about really defensive, reactive play. Mech lost a good tool for harass in the hb nerf, but I never used them for harass anyways..
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On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T..
I just simply disagree with you on more or less every count.
It's:
A) Okay to get an upgrade to do better harassment. Most races require teching of some sort to harass.
B) Not every form of harass is shut down by Photon Overcharge. Banshees can run in where there is no detection, drops can kill off tech buildings or workers or even snipe entire Nexi. Particularly, when we're debating the mid game, Protoss is torn between defending several bases at once and a favoured T strategy is to drop one location and attack another. Which is often effective. The change doesn't affect that.
Furthermore, to relate to the second part of your post, late-game P armies are built on the back of massive Zealot support. Stalkers are there to kill off Vikings which are attacking Colossi. The Hellbat is there to make it more viable to fight Zealots and that still remains the case.
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Hellbat nerf is good, although i think 19+11 would probably be better so hellbats can still 2shot lings regardless of +1 carapace, but that's a minor issue.
For banshees, this doesn't change the fact that they suck against the other races regardless.
Protoss: nexus cannon, standard robo openings, and detection on stargate which makes phoenixes (aka the banshee terminators) = what's the point?
Zerg: i believe 4 queens are standard? Or 5? Queens are decent against banshees, and with transfuse it makes the terran feel silly for investing several hundred gas and delayed mediavcs to take energy off queens and forcing spores. Spores no longer need evo. Hell, even overlord speed is cheaper so overseers w/ speed should never lose sight of a cloaked banshee. Once mutas come out, banshees become gift baskets.
TvT, i can see them being more annoying, but with widow mines and 1 turret per mineral line, I'm not so sure it's actually going to be an issue...
I would much, much rather see a build time decrease (like 10 seconds) so it's actually viable to make them in the midgame (remember that making banshees with your starport means its not making 2 medivacs at a time, and medivacs are pretty good.)
Knowledge bomb: Banshees take 60 seconds to build. 60 goddam seconds. A void ray takes 60 seconds, but can be chronoboosted to take 50 with 1 chrono or 40 with 2. A CARRIER can be chronoed just once and build quicker than 2 banshees. Immortals build in 55s without chrono. Ultralisks build in 55. I could go on and on, but basically in terms of build time rather than cost, banshees are just sad.
tldr banshees should build quicker, not cloak research buff
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On July 09 2013 06:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T.. Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game? Teamliquid, where people cannot see the connection between midgame harass and an asymmetrically designed matchup honestly, what a dumbass question
So when you wrote "lategame", you meant "midgame, with the expectation that people are smart enough to understand that I meant "midgame""
Why not write midgame instead?
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HELLBATS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 
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On July 09 2013 06:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T.. Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game? Teamliquid, where people cannot see the connection between midgame harass and an asymmetrically designed matchup honestly, what a dumbass question
The terran whining continues on TeamLiquid. They claim to be helpless and unable to do anything to protoss, they are helpless against zerg. Their plight is terrible and any nerf will cause them all to leave the ladder forever.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On July 09 2013 05:00 LiLSighKoh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:56 YourAdHere wrote:
As a Terran I haven't even played SC2 at all since the S1 finals because TvT went from my most favorite to my least favorite matchup almost over night. Hopefully Marine/Tank becomes viable again. You'll probably still see mech with hellbats, and hellbat drops in the mid-late game, just not in the early game, so I still think you won't be playing marine/tank.
I still don't understand why people prefer marine/tank in TvT. It's literally tank/blueflame hellions but the hellions can shoot up. It also sucks because dropping on tank lines isn't really possible as the other guy has marines.
The other issue I have with it is rather than actual good engagements it comes down to a split second decision of who manages to micro their marines a slight bit better to decide the game and that kinda sucks. Atleast with mech you have long drawn out positioning battles.
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On July 09 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:12 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T.. Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game? Teamliquid, where people cannot see the connection between midgame harass and an asymmetrically designed matchup honestly, what a dumbass question The terran whining continues on TeamLiquid. They claim to be helpless and unable to do anything to protoss, they are helpless against zerg. Their plight is terrible and any nerf will cause them all to leave the ladder forever.
really? feel like i'm posting on bnet
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On July 09 2013 06:13 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 05:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 05:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:29 zhurai wrote:
how many hits does it take for hellbats to kill a zealot now?
It went up from 5 to 9. Without the upgrade. But Zealots still trade like crap with Hellbats on mass due to the AOE. Proof? It's something to test, and could be the case, but I haven't seen it yet. 9 shots is a lot... They both do the same amount of damage, except that zealots do it with two hit(9 damage, twice) and the Hellbat does it in an AOE. It means that is all about the angle, but multiple hellbats can hit a several zealots per shot, while a single zealot can only work on a single hellbat. The attack cooldowns surely differ, hellbat fires every 2 seconds, the zealot every 1.2 seconds. And the Zealot has 15 more health. + Show Spoiler +
So, both do 18 damage. (Zealot 132/150 - Hellbat 117/135 )
1.2 - Zealot reaches 36 damage.
2 - Hellbat reaches 36 damage.
2.4 - Zealot reaches 54 damage.
3.6 - Zealot reaches 72 damage
4 - Hellbat reaches 54 damage
4.8 - Zealot reaches 90 damage
6 - Zealot reaches 108 damage, hellbat reaches 72 damage.
7.2 - Zealot reaches 126 damage
8 - Hellbat reaches 90 damage
9 - Zealot reaches the required 135 damage to kill a hellbat.
Theoretically, you still need 2 overlapping AOE's to kill a Zealot (how well do they line up?). But previously a hellbat narrowly beat a zealot 1 on 1.
A zealot also beats a roach 1v1, but no one tried to use that to justify them as a counter to roaches. I stand by my statement that zealots "still trade horribly against hellbats on mass."
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On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard
How does it hurt late game anything?
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On July 09 2013 05:22 baeric wrote:I like the patch and the timing  No great tournament coming up.
other than GSL/OSL
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On July 09 2013 06:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 06:12 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T.. Even if this were true, which it isn't, how is that related in any way to late game? Teamliquid, where people cannot see the connection between midgame harass and an asymmetrically designed matchup honestly, what a dumbass question The terran whining continues on TeamLiquid. They claim to be helpless and unable to do anything to protoss, they are helpless against zerg. Their plight is terrible and any nerf will cause them all to leave the ladder forever. really?
Yeah, your whining, making wild claims of how you are helpless, can never harass and will never be able to beat protoss ever again.
I quote: "yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.."
So I am calling you what you are: someone who is whining about a nerf that people have been expecting since launch. And its not even that huge.
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On July 09 2013 06:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 05:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:53 Plansix wrote:On July 09 2013 05:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 09 2013 05:29 zhurai wrote:
how many hits does it take for hellbats to kill a zealot now?
It went up from 5 to 9. Without the upgrade. But Zealots still trade like crap with Hellbats on mass due to the AOE. Proof? It's something to test, and could be the case, but I haven't seen it yet. 9 shots is a lot... They both do the same amount of damage, except that zealots do it with two hit(9 damage, twice) and the Hellbat does it in an AOE. It means that is all about the angle, but multiple hellbats can hit a several zealots per shot, while a single zealot can only work on a single hellbat. The attack cooldowns surely differ, hellbat fires every 2 seconds, the zealot every 1.2 seconds. And the Zealot has 15 more health. + Show Spoiler +
So, both do 18 damage. (Zealot 132/150 - Hellbat 117/135 )
1.2 - Zealot reaches 36 damage.
2 - Hellbat reaches 36 damage.
2.4 - Zealot reaches 54 damage.
3.6 - Zealot reaches 72 damage
4 - Hellbat reaches 54 damage
4.8 - Zealot reaches 90 damage
6 - Zealot reaches 108 damage, hellbat reaches 72 damage.
7.2 - Zealot reaches 126 damage
8 - Hellbat reaches 90 damage
9 - Zealot reaches the required 135 damage to kill a hellbat.
Theoretically, you still need 2 overlapping AOE's to kill a Zealot (how well do they line up?). But previously a hellbat narrowly beat a zealot 1 on 1.
A zealot also beats a roach 1v1, but no one tried to use that to justify them as a counter to roaches. I stand by my statement that zealots "still trade horribly against hellbats on mass."
And you still didn't provide any way to verify that claim. You did offer that they do the same amount of damage (18), but forgot to mention that the zealot attacks faster and has more health... So what is your actual evidence for your claim.
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On July 09 2013 06:08 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 06:06 Heartland wrote:On July 09 2013 06:03 c0sm0naut wrote:
What a bad change.. This will make late game TvP incredibly difficult and hurt terran in every matchup, all for the sake of fixing a mirror-specific problem......... Zerg and Protoss players are grinning right now becuase the builds they do every game anyways already counter cloaked banshee, it's their lack of map presence, unit control, unit positioning that loses their games to hellbats.. not the unit. banshees can't punish retard Late game will be bad because you'll have to get an upgrade? yes, especially when midgame harass is incredibly weakened by the need to research one, and it's the only harass in the matchup not 100% shut down by photon overcharge.. the problem is that i now have to research an expensive upgrade for a unit i'm just making to help my composition. They aren't even good vs stalker/sentry/collosus or regular armies, only baddies that rely purely on Z Archon are they truly powerful. This change makes it so protoss just cannot be harassed by T..
Oh ffs, you still have mines, stim drops, and in two minutes you'll have the exact same hellbat -.-'
And now, banshees will be even easier to use to harass.
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EPT
