Me and my friend were recently trying to get a mutual friend into Starcraft 2. He said it seemed to difficult and he had no prior experience with it and that he never had played BW. We then started to discuss his previous gaming experience, and he stated that he played Warcraft 3 quite a lot.
So while Warcraft 3 is not identical to Starcraft 2, it still seems like the transition is not that difficult, seeing as we started to discuss how the Warcraft 3 pros were doing in Starcraft 2.
This lead to a long and interesting discussion, which brought up quite a few questions I'd like to bring up here aswell.
First of all, let us look at the current foreign SC2 pros, or more so the most succesful ones. Have you guys ever noticed that most of them are actually former WC3 players?
I mean Stephano was long regarded as the best foreigner and still is by many. Some of the best Swedish players are mostly former WC3 players aswell. (Naniwa, Thorzain, SjoW, Sase)
Actually I will just list some names now: Lucifron Vortix Demuslim Targa Bly Kas ToD NightEnd Grubby Harstem HasuObs Socke Happy Elfi MacSed
While obviously not all the listed are the top players right now, I still think it shows that in general the WC3 players seem to be the most succesful foreigners.
But if we go to the Korean scene, this does not seem to be the case. When Moon switched to SC2 he was hyped so much for being the best and most succesful WC3 player, but unfortunately he never really made a name of himself in SC2. He had a good IEM run and that is about it. I think the only noteable Korean ex-WC3 players are violet and polt.
So to sum it all up: How come the most succesful foreigners seem to be former WC3 players, while the former WC3 Korean players seem to have failed? Also it is odd that while the foreign BW players (Nerchio, Socke and so on) are definitely doing good, and especially in the beginning of SC2 the foreign BW players were obviously doing best, it seems that the WC3 players are just way more dominant on the foreign scene.
I mean this could probably just be explained by WC3 players catching up, but I still find it strange how big difference there is between the successrate between the Korean WC3 players and the foreign wc3 players in general. And considering so many former foreign WC3 players seem to be doing very good in SC2, I can't help but think they have a different mindset.
It's fairly simple. The WC3 scene was much more established in Europe compared to the BW scene in Europe. Conversely, the BW scene in Korea was much more established than the WC3 scene in Korea.
There was almost no pro BW scene outside Korea, but there was a good deal of WC3. So if you're looking for the best foreigners, of course you'll get mostly WC3 players. In Korea there was very little WC3, but tons of BW, so if you look at the best players there you get tons of BW players. If you look at overal best, of course Korea will come out on top because they have a history of much more serious progaming in general, established teams and pro houses and so forth.
In order to know which game was actually better preparation, you'd need two sets of people who were playing both games, but were similiarly professionalized with equally big tournaments and so forth, and then have them switch at the same time. Both games are good preparation for SC2. I think that BW is better, but there's just not the data to really be sure.
On June 19 2013 04:21 StarMoon wrote: Not 100% sure on this, but I would say its mostly a matter of scenes.
WC3 wasn't huge in Korea, although it was big in china, and had more of a foreigner scene.
BW was the opposite, HUGE in Korea, very lackluster foreigner scene.
Pretty much this. It should also be said that since BW was huge in Korea so the Kespa teams already have excellent practice regimes established and a very high skill pool to practice against. Where as the Korean WC3 teams probably didn't have practice regimes/training even close to comparable to the kespa teams. As far as EU WC3 players doing well it could be a matter of just more time/practice being put into the game. Aside from Strelok/White-ra I don't remember very many EU BW pros but then again I mostly just followed the korean scene.
A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China.
However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable:
The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down. An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds.
Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3.
Me and my friend were recently trying to get a mutual friend into Starcraft 2. He said it seemed to difficult and he had no prior experience with it and that he never had played BW. We then started to discuss his previous gaming experience, and he stated that he played Warcraft 3 quite a lot.
So while Warcraft 3 is not identical to Starcraft 2, it still seems like the transition is not that difficult, seeing as we started to discuss how the Warcraft 3 pros were doing in Starcraft 2.
This lead to a long and interesting discussion, which brought up quite a few questions I'd like to bring up here aswell.
First of all, let us look at the current foreign SC2 pros, or more so the most succesful ones. Have you guys ever noticed that most of them are actually former WC3 players?
I mean Stephano was long regarded as the best foreigner and still is by many. Some of the best Swedish players are mostly former WC3 players aswell. (Naniwa, Thorzain, SjoW, Sase)
Actually I will just list some names now: Lucifron Vortix Demuslim Targa Bly Kas ToD NightEnd Grubby Harstem HasuObs Socke Happy Elfi MacSed
While obviously not all the listed are the top players right now, I still think it shows that in general the WC3 players seem to be the most succesful foreigners.
But if we go to the Korean scene, this does not seem to be the case. When Moon switched to SC2 he was hyped so much for being the best and most succesful WC3 player, but unfortunately he never really made a name of himself in SC2. He had a good IEM run and that is about it. I think the only noteable Korean ex-WC3 players are violet and polt.
So to sum it all up: How come the most succesful foreigners seem to be former WC3 players, while the former WC3 Korean players seem to have failed? Also it is odd that while the foreign BW players (Nerchio, Socke and so on) are definitely doing good, and especially in the beginning of SC2 the foreign BW players were obviously doing best, it seems that the WC3 players are just way more dominant on the foreign scene.
I mean this could probably just be explained by WC3 players catching up, but I still find it strange how big difference there is between the successrate between the Korean WC3 players and the foreign wc3 players in general. And considering so many former foreign WC3 players seem to be doing very good in SC2, I can't help but think they have a different mindset.
The main problem is, that people constantly forget, that there are a huge variety of factors other then the differences between WC3 and BW. Additional factors which come to mind include amount of training (europeans back then trained even less than today), general acceptance and size of E-sport in general (WC3 was the newer game so more europeans played it, hence talented player where less likely to play BW. In korea BW was the game Period) and game switches (as said before, WC3 was new, so many people actually switched from BW to WC3 due to lack of succes and/or extrinsic incentive.
The variety of things that have changes is too big to give a definite answer. I, personally, think that BW players did better in general. That being said, this applies to the switch from one game to another, the progamers you named have been playing sc2 for years now. Transition is no longer an issue, rather factors refering to training and aquisition of tactical diversity.
That being said I think that we are way way way beyond the transition phase and SC2 has been around long enough for it to pretty much nullify the previously aquired abilities. Therefore think, that at least on a pro level, this topic is not relevant anymore.
On June 19 2013 04:39 monk wrote: A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China.
However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable:
The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down. An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds.
Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3.
Dayfly and Moon found out about those modification before the final... Moon vs Romeo was played on normal maps! Damn, I was so happy when Romeo reached the final after beating Freedom with some crazy strategy like TC first or SH first, only to be more dissapointed after hearing about this scandal.
Nearly every former top korean wc3 player dislike sc2 (Lyn, Moon (both are back to wc3), Check retired 6months after sc2 release) or went to military short before sc2 release (FoV, Susiria). Other haven't entered sc2 (Lucifer, Remind and Focus dont like sc2 and they never entered sc2 officially). What about Soccer?
Very very similiar to the chinese wc3 pros (TeD, Th000, Sky). Apparently HotS change the mind of some top chinese player to switch from wc3 to sc2 (Infi).
On June 19 2013 04:24 Noocta wrote: You can actually see that the most successful foreign progamer are old WC3 player. Very few of the BW days are still relevant.
I don't know, MaNa, Nerchio, IdrA and DIMAGA are/were top foreigners. There are probably fewer BW players among the top 20 foreigners (because of the BW/WC3 scenes out of Korea) but their presence is still solid.
On June 19 2013 04:39 monk wrote: A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China.
However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable:
The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down. An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds.
Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3.
On June 19 2013 04:24 Noocta wrote: You can actually see that the most successful foreign progamer are old WC3 player. Very few of the BW days are still relevant.
I don't know, MaNa, Nerchio, IdrA and DIMAGA are/were top foreigners. There are probably fewer BW players among the top 20 foreigners (because of the BW/WC3 scenes out of Korea) but their presence is still solid.
If you actively participated in the BW scene? Yup, it was pretty substantial in terms of competitiveness/pool of players. You really had to know where to look though and all of us were pretty scattered. Several leagues & ladders and it was more hobby than anything else because there was practically no money in our scene at all. It was about the love & passion for the game and to get better. Nothing to write off, but yeah WC3 was definitely a lot bigger and had more money involved globally as a kick starter. It really doesn't matter what background you have in RTS as long as you played a half decent one.
Here the ppl you could consider very good foreigners and played wc3 as their main title before sc2 (e.g. TLO and socke played a bit of wc3 i think, but more casually)
Casters: Axslav (Nightelf / Random) Rotterdam (Orc) TaKe (Human)
WC3 was more popular and way more played in europe than BW, but way less popular in Korea than BW. Funnily enough, koreans were still the best in war3, but the best 5-10 europeans were almost or acutally on korean level. Moon (NightElf), Sky (Human), TeD (Undead) and Lyn (Orc) were still slightly favored against them at all times (with the small exception of Grubby). As you might know, Moon and Lyn played Sc2 for a bit, with decent success (Moon = Dreamhack runner up; Lyn = Code S), but they sadly never seem to have played the game full time. I dont know what Sky is doing, he was without a doubt the best Human player in the world; TeD bought a chinese wc3-related restaurant back then after he stopped playing, not sure how it goes
On June 19 2013 04:39 monk wrote: A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China.
However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable:
The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down. An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds.
Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3.
Was WC3 successful relative the bw at the time? Or was it like Halo is to us
Edit: I like reading bits of history about bw and wc3. If you have anything more that you think might be interesting.. don't hesitate
I played the fuck out of those games but had no idea of a pro scene until early 2011
It was decently popular. A good analogy would be something like SC2 international today : Dota2 international today :: BW in korea then : WC3 in korea then
That's mostly because W3 pros were much younger when SC2 came about. Foreign BW scene was pretty much dead at that point and the only person playing actively was Idra. Most established BW pros ceased to play before SC2 appeared (and even then most played it out of curiosity rather then with intent to come back to progaming).
Think of it this way - name the TOP 30 foreigners of all time and think about how many of them actually gave SC2 a *serious* shot. Very, very few.
Quite a few top Korean WC3 players still play as far as I know...competing in Chinese tournaments and stuff.
Quite a few actually tried SC2, but I guess they were used to the success in WC3, and saw that it would be incredibly hard for them to have the same level of success:
Moon oGs.Ven (known as SocceR in WC3) Lyn (playing for Chinese teams) FoCuS and Shy (Fnatic players, teammates to Go)Space ) - I think tried playing in the first GSL Opens in 2010 but weren't very successful.
Thanks for all the replies. Yes I suppose there was a huge difference between the foreign BW and WC3 scene, but I was still quite surprised by how well the WC3 players are doing. Also Monk I actually did not know that story about the rigged maps, even though I did follow the WC3 quite a lot, thanks for sharing and that is actually quite interesting. I suppose it did impact the Korean scene.
On June 19 2013 05:18 eurTsItniH wrote: Thanks for all the replies. Yes I suppose there was a huge difference between the foreign BW and WC3 scene, but I was still quite surprised by how well the WC3 players are doing. Also Monk I actually did not know that story about the rigged maps, even though I did follow the WC3 quite a lot, thanks for sharing and that is actually quite interesting. I suppose it did impact the Korean scene.
Just like the money fixing scandal did a number on us with IPXZerg. Both were well documented on TL. We weren't too thrilled with certain players trying to break the rules in the TSL ladder, or the fact certain players were maphacking/having other players play for them on their accounts to smurfing etc. List goes on and on. Just a whole lot of bullshit going down in both scenes. No other way to put it, but hell good thing we were right on top of it most of the time.
Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer) Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother) Moonglade
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
All I know is that it was a lot easier to be a macro player and use that to your advantage in BW. Now anyone can have "perfect" macro. If you neglected micro in BW, it's pretty tough. Macro is easy enough that anyone can do it, meanwhile micro is either harder or at least more important now, favoring WC 3 players. As for Koreans, I dunno. I guess to be the best and spend that much playing, you had to master ever aspect of Starcraft, so having micro be more of a difference maker isn't that big of a deal for them.
Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well.
On June 19 2013 05:25 StarStruck wrote: Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well.
Grubby won WCG twice. i don't know if you consider Chinese players foreigners, but Sky won twice as well. just saying.
Creo was definitely the only player to win a WCG while being retired from progaming though :D
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus Lucifron (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ( ThorZaiN (was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Moonglade (known for massing fiends) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Dood, stephano was called "miniToD" in the late wc3 years, he was quite good already. almost on the level of the better human foreigners (demuslim/thorzain/kas). Also, Bly and VortiX were quite decent UD players. moonglade played Nightelf mainly.
My ranking of wc3 players that appeared in Sc2 would be the following (only counting their wc3 performances, some of them were good at different times, hard to measure)
1) Moon, Lyn, Grubby (maybe between 1 and 2? hard to judge how many you put here) 2) Infi 3) ToD (in between 2 and 3 probably), viOlet, SocceR, Check, Lucifron, Happy, Madfrog (?) 4) SaSe 5) XlorD, Demuslim, HasuObs, ThorZaiN, Satiini 6) Titan, Kas, Bly, NightEnD, RotterdaM 7) VortiX, mOOnGlaDe, Stephano, Axslav, elfitaja, Naama 8) TargA, NaniWa 9) Strifeco, TaKe
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus Lucifron (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ( ThorZaiN (was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Moonglade (known for massing fiends) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Dood, stephano was called "miniToD" in the late wc3 years, he was quite good already. almost on the level of the better human foreigners (demuslim/thorzain/kas). Also, Bly and VortiX were quite decent UD players. moonglade played Nightelf mainly.
My ranking of wc3 players that appeared in Sc2 would be the following (only counting their wc3 performances, some of them were good at different times, hard to measure)
1) Moon, Lyn, Grubby (maybe between 1 and 2? hard to judge how many you put here) 2) Infi 3) ToD (in between 2 and 3 probably), viOlet, SocceR, Check, Lucifron, Happy, Madfrog (?) 4) SaSe 5) XlorD, Demuslim, HasuObs, ThorZaiN, Satiini 6) Titan, Kas, Bly, NightEnD, RotterdaM 7) VortiX, mOOnGlaDe, Stephano, Axslav, elfitaja, Naama 8) TargA, NaniWa 9) Strifeco, TaKe
something in those lines ~~
I honestly haven't heard anything from Stephano besides the fact that he played in some Zotac cups and that he went to a few Lans.
Sky dabbled with SC2 and played in a showmatch vs Moon. He coaches the WE LoL/Dota team now. Remind tried to qualify for GSL once. Creo is the coach for a Norwegian SC2 team. I'm fairly sure moonglade played Ud.
On June 19 2013 05:25 StarStruck wrote: Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well.
Grubby won WCG twice. i don't know if you consider Chinese players foreigners, but Sky won twice as well. just saying.
Creo was definitely the only player to win a WCG while being retired from progaming though :D
Fly and Ted also won WCGs. (Although the most recent WCG won by Ted only featured around 7 competitive players.)
Towards the end of the international WC3 scene, the Chinese players were pretty much dominating, mainly since the European and the Korean scenes dwindled, but at the same time Chinese eSport became massive, and WC3 was at the centre of it all, so I'd rank Sky above Moon/Grubby, and probably Infi as well. ToD was very good, but he was far from being as consistent as the Koreans on MYM and SK.
Something interesting i found from a few years ago: I let the readmore.de community rank the best orcs, nightelves, humans and undeads in 2009 - their current performance in 2009 was ranked by the community. Note that some players that had huge success before that point might not appear therefore (e.g. Zacard, Lucifer) or too low ranked compared to their all time results. 2009 was probably the last year of truely competetive Wc3.
Here the results from back then (in spoilers, sc2 relevant figures marked)
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer) Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother) Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Missing Tillerman, Zacard, maybe Hanfy. Also honorable mentions for tak3r and AKM for playing batshit crazy.
why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Lucifron, demuslim and other players should never get close to top20 players ever. I wonder why so many people forgt about TH000, Soju, Zacard and other legends. For some reason people also are not even including some of the 4 UD legends: Lucifer, Sweet, Fov and Reign. Decent players like Creo/Susiria were also better than Lucifron/Demuslim (Lucifron used to be a total BM abuser ;/) and other players mentioned here.
some notes:
1) Remind said himself that Soju was his master and taught him everything he knew. 2) At some point, all NE were losing to UD players, with only Soju (and sometimes Moon) being able to beat them 3) When Sky came to the scene, he was much better than Tod. 4) When Lyn broke the scene, he was also better than grubby 5) All the big 3 UDs (Lucifer, fov and sweet) had their time of brilliance and domination, each on a different time. 6) Many o the players dicussed on this threat were only able to start winning tournaments and zotacs after the scene started dying 7) Infi was terrible when the scene was on top 8) Happy used to be a little bit BM (and too sincere) in WC3. He made very good points tho and had one of the best micros of all time.
Edit: Players like vortix, Bly, hasuobs and other names also only appeared in the very late scene (when wc3 was completely dead). On the other hand, Tod and Happy (mainly Tod) dominated when the scene was bigger. Violet also did pretty decent, but the scene was kinda dead as well
"koreans are dominating bw, its hard to be a bw pro in korea or anywhere, lets try our luck with wc3" (this would apply to korean non bw pros wanting to be bw pro)
so there just happens to be many wc3 pros playing sc2, and many of them fully capable of good bw pro if given the chance however since bw pro scene was so saturated with talent, it could be easier to become a wc3 pro.
seems plausible.
sc2 scene is still largely dominated by bw players. naturally there are more wc3 pros coming from na/eu since there wasnt a big bw scene and wc3 was bigger.
tldr: in korea bw scene held talent. in eu/na, wc3 scene held talent. so naturally, thats what we see with sc2 transition.
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer) Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother) Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Missing Tillerman, Zacard, maybe Hanfy. Also honorable mentions for tak3r and AKM for playing batshit crazy.
None of those players played SC2. Otherwise, I'd have to include Fly, Ted, Th000, Sweet, Reign, Fov, Lucifer etc...
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Korea was the better country most of the time, but I would say that China was marginally better in 2009, right before the release of SCII. The was mostly because Moon was slumping and Fly/Th000/Infi got especially really good. Only Remind/Lyn could really compete.
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer) Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother) Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Missing Tillerman, Zacard, maybe Hanfy. Also honorable mentions for tak3r and AKM for playing batshit crazy.
None of those players played SC2. Otherwise, I'd have to include Fly, Ted, Th000, Sweet, Reign, Fov, Lucifer etc...
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Korea was the better country most of the time, but I would say that China was marginally better in 2009, right before the release of SCII. The was mostly because Moon was slumping and Fly/Th000/Infi got especially really good. Only Remind/Lyn could really compete.
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best) Lyn Tod (retired early) Infi Remind Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer) Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Soccer Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late) Check SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament) Happy Xlord Demuslim Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling) Hasuobs Titan (don't remember him too well) Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this) Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster) Nightend ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3) Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups) Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother) Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Semi competitive SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3) Naniwa (known more for BM than skill) Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r) Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player) Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive Stephano (no real accomplishments) Polt (casual)
Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Missing Tillerman, Zacard, maybe Hanfy. Also honorable mentions for tak3r and AKM for playing batshit crazy.
None of those players played SC2. Otherwise, I'd have to include Fly, Ted, Th000, Sweet, Reign, Fov, Lucifer etc...
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Korea was the better country most of the time, but I would say that China was marginally better in 2009, right before the release of SCII. The was mostly because Moon was slumping and Fly/Th000/Infi got especially really good. Only Remind/Lyn could really compete.
Yes, you're right. I just think its important to note that after 2009 only Remind and Lyn were really competing. Soccer was also a monster but for some reason people considered him to be the underdog, even through he had much better results than Remind when both competed at the same tournament/year.
As many stated the wc3 scene was just much bigger in EU and paved the way for sc2 by establishing RTS infrastructure. I don't think the games matter that much, TLO played some weird game I can't remember and Apollo played command and conquer (he planned on going pro first) etc. It's just that the rts scene was already big in EU compared to NA.
On June 19 2013 06:41 Musicus wrote: As many stated the wc3 scene was just much bigger in EU and paved the way for sc2 by establishing RTS infrastructure. I don't think the games matters that much, TLO played some weird game I can't remember and Apollo played command and conquer (he planned on going pro first) etc. It's just that the rts scene was already big in EU compared to NA.
On June 19 2013 06:41 Musicus wrote: As many stated the wc3 scene was just much bigger in EU and paved the way for sc2 by establishing RTS infrastructure. I don't think the games matters that much, TLO played some weird game I can't remember and Apollo played command and conquer (he planned on going pro first) etc. It's just that the rts scene was already big in EU compared to NA.
On June 19 2013 06:41 Musicus wrote: As many stated the wc3 scene was just much bigger in EU and paved the way for sc2 by establishing RTS infrastructure. I don't think the games matters that much, TLO played some weird game I can't remember and Apollo played command and conquer (he planned on going pro first) etc. It's just that the rts scene was already big in EU compared to NA.
I would just say that NA players were just bad had extremely terrible manner and will to improve.
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high.
On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote: Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
-snip- Moonglade (known for massing fiends) -snip-
-snip- Polt (casual) -snip- Other Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them) Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Would have been hard for mOOnglade to mass fiends considering that he played as Night Elf . I think you are mixing him up with Philbot, who was another Australian wc3 player who was semi-successful on the international level and went DK+fiends every single game (including UD mirror, where Lich first was clearly the strongest build).
Also Polt wasn't really casual, he just restricted himself to playing in Korean tournaments due to school, and I remember him playing as early as 2005-2006 in the Korean MBC Prime League WC3 tournaments. He was the pioneer of early Mountain King first builds(even before players like Infi and TH000 were popularized them) though he was never really successful enough to go deep into these tournaments, but he was capable of qualifying for them regularly.
Didn't Moon try to jump over to SC2 about a year or so back? I remember seeing him play and losing my shit about it since I love me some goddamn WC3 and Moon is one of the best players of the game.
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high.
Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby.
Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case.
satiini was known for playing with solo warden only.
demuslim was on 4k.
madfrog was the inventor of the gargoyle harrass.
Happy was probably best foreign undead player of all time. Always playing extremelly close series with grubby, many times managing to defeat him in the darkest times for undead.
Lucifron was known to be a prodigy , second best orc to Grubby in the foreign scene.
Titan was a really good night elf player using good staff micro.
SaSe known for crazy staff micro and great ladder rankings.SaSe reached lvl 60 i tihnk when a no-limit ladder was introduced.
Naniwa was pretty bad and had a very bad reputation. Was playing undead and (rightfully) complaining about orc.
Stephano was an upcoming human player called "miniToD".
Kas was known for good control and almost always playing Archmage first and rushing to lvl 2 water elementals.Was becoming really strong at the end of TFT
Same can be said about thorzain.
ToD was probably the second most consistent foreigner after Grubby. Moon stole a peasant of his with his darkranger in a televised match and defeated ToD with siege engines and a bloodmage.as night elf
HasuObs known for using DeathKnight/Lich/Alchemist in late stages of TFT to counter air armies. In my eyes a really solid undead player.
Bly , more known as bly4eg was a rather mediocre undead player.VortiX was playing undead too and hasnt done anything quite notable.
MacSeD was a chinese orc player, a really good friend of SaSe . Was overshadowed by xiaOt though.
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high.
Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby.
Based on pure accomplishments, Lucifer is still overshadowed by Infi, Fly, Th000, Tod and Remind. An argument for Lucifer being 4th only makes sense if you give him bonus points for being Ud and Korean.
Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case.
That's fair enough though and I respect that. I believe Lucifer was still around when those three were dominating though.
I never followed the BW pro scene and tbh never knew much about it until I caught up some years later. I did know about the wc3 pro scene and so did quite a lot of people in Europe, it was pretty damn popular for a while. As far as I know though BW did not have much of a pro scene anywhere outside of Korea, unlike wc3 which was popular in Europe and China. Also wasn't Idra like the best foreigner for a long time in BW? That says quite a lot for how under devoloped the BW scene was outside of Korea. I played enough of that game to know how mechanically taxing it was though, maybe that had something to do with stifling growth amongst players Worldwide. Shame it never got the love outside or Korea it probably deserved.
Shedding some light in something I read : WC3 was not big in Korea for this exact reason: It started becoming huge (OGN and MBC leagues or something similar it was in 2004) then there came a scandal with rigged maps towards one race (they actually changed the dmg of orc units and their HP) while in-game the values showed normal.
This came as a huge shock and killed the status and the growth of the game. Still it was big in there but not as big as BW.
also: yeah almost all the top foreight sc2 players are ex wc3 pros/semi pros.
also yeah CH never really >>> KR, it was only after the KR pros retired that CH players started winning things.
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Lucifron, demuslim and other players should never get close to top20 players ever. I wonder why so many people forgt about TH000, Soju, Zacard and other legends. For some reason people also are not even including some of the 4 UD legends: Lucifer, Sweet, Fov and Reign. Decent players like Creo/Susiria were also better than Lucifron/Demuslim (Lucifron used to be a total BM abuser ;/) and other players mentioned here.
some notes:
1) Remind said himself that Soju was his master and taught him everything he knew. 2) At some point, all NE were losing to UD players, with only Soju (and sometimes Moon) being able to beat them 3) When Sky came to the scene, he was much better than Tod. 4) When Lyn broke the scene, he was also better than grubby 5) All the big 3 UDs (Lucifer, fov and sweet) had their time of brilliance and domination, each on a different time. 6) Many o the players dicussed on this threat were only able to start winning tournaments and zotacs after the scene started dying 7) Infi was terrible when the scene was on top 8) Happy used to be a little bit BM (and too sincere) in WC3. He made very good points tho and had one of the best micros of all time.
Edit: Players like vortix, Bly, hasuobs and other names also only appeared in the very late scene (when wc3 was completely dead). On the other hand, Tod and Happy (mainly Tod) dominated when the scene was bigger. Violet also did pretty decent, but the scene was kinda dead as well
hasuobs played wc3 since almost forever. he was very solid, sometimes took games of koreans, but he wasnt a top 5 foreigner at any point probably. pretty much like in sc2 i think, lol.
infi was NOT terrible when the scene was in the prime. that must be some huge hate. violet was decent when the scene was on top, he was great when the scene started to die and won every cup when it was dead before transitioning into sc2.
you completly forget TeD.
sry dude, you got some things wrong in your head over time i think^^
On June 19 2013 07:32 MyNameIsAlex wrote: Shedding some light in something I read : WC3 was not big in Korea for this exact reason: It started becoming huge (OGN and MBC leagues or something similar it was in 2004) then there came a scandal with rigged maps towards one race (they actually changed the dmg of orc units and their HP) while in-game the values showed normal.
This came as a huge shock and killed the status and the growth of the game. Still it was big in there but not as big as BW.
also: yeah almost all the top foreight sc2 players are ex wc3 pros/semi pros.
On June 19 2013 07:32 MyNameIsAlex wrote: Shedding some light in something I read : WC3 was not big in Korea for this exact reason: It started becoming huge (OGN and MBC leagues or something similar it was in 2004) then there came a scandal with rigged maps towards one race (they actually changed the dmg of orc units and their HP) while in-game the values showed normal.
This came as a huge shock and killed the status and the growth of the game. Still it was big in there but not as big as BW.
also: yeah almost all the top foreight sc2 players are ex wc3 pros/semi pros.
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high.
Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby.
Based on pure accomplishments, Lucifer is still overshadowed by Infi, Fly, Th000, Tod and Remind. An argument for Lucifer being 4th only makes sense if you give him bonus points for being Ud and Korean.
Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case.
That's fair enough though and I respect that. I believe Lucifer was still around when those three were dominating though.
Hmm, thats interesting, I looked up earnings for Th000 and Fly versus Lucifer, and they seem to be much lower. I am not sure what happened in 2009-2010, perhaps the site is missing a few tournaments, but from those statistics, Lucifer is 2nd only to infi.
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high.
Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby.
Based on pure accomplishments, Lucifer is still overshadowed by Infi, Fly, Th000, Tod and Remind. An argument for Lucifer being 4th only makes sense if you give him bonus points for being Ud and Korean.
Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case.
That's fair enough though and I respect that. I believe Lucifer was still around when those three were dominating though.
Hmm, thats interesting, I looked up earnings for Th000 and Fly versus Lucifer, and they seem to be much lower. I am not sure what happened in 2009-2010, perhaps the site is missing a few tournaments, but from those statistics, Lucifer is 2nd only to infi.
The SK one is more complete. You can tell because all the numbers are higher. Also, the esportsearnings site seems to be missing all the tournaments starting from 2009. Most notably, TH000 doesn't seem to have any winnings.
i agree with mostly what monk said, but i would also like to add a small theory that since army control and correct positioning and good engagements are much more important in sc2 than they were in BW because of they way the units work, with their new AI, and the 'x unit counters y' design, so therefore it would make sense that wc3 players who excel at micro would succeed in this area of the game!
On June 19 2013 07:52 Champi wrote: i agree with mostly what monk said, but i would also like to add a small theory that since army control and correct positioning and good engagements are much more important in sc2 than they were in BW because of they way the units work, with their new AI, and the 'x unit counters y' design, so therefore it would make sense that wc3 players who excel at micro would succeed in this area of the game!
The theory is an interesting one but seems to hold little weight when looking at the sc2 pro scene now and see virtually everyone who is at the top is an ex bw pro.
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman.
Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain.
Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO.
UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems.
Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu.
HeMaN and Insomnia were good only at the begining of wc3. FoCuS , i have to agree.forgot about him he deserves to be there. And the undead was GoStop, not GoRush. I think there was a bw player that was called gorush?
For those who are interested in the situation between me and ownitsch, I am writing the story. When we were driving to Hamburg from Cologne (ownitsch was the driver), I had to smoke a cigarette because it’s a bit annoying to be stuck on the road when no cars are moving and everyone is waiting. I even opened a window so I won’t disturb anyone but ownitsch told me to stop smoking.I told him, “no, I need to smoke that cigarette!” He then stopped the car like crazy, stepped out of the driver’s seat, walked to the other side of the car, opened my door, and took my cigarette out of my hand (in bad manner). I walked off from the car and asked him why he was doing this, and kicked him in the body (because I can’t accept those bad manners from him, which he commited by removing my cigarette from my hand). After we had arrived at the hotel, gues what happened? Ownitsch told me that I will be flying home tomorrow and told me to stay here. I was like “wtf” ownitsch, why are you doing this? At the hotel I was taking another cigarette to smoke because I couldn’t believe what he told me, then after I smoked I came to him and asked him if I will be flying home tomorrow. Guess what happened? He just gave the room card. I was like “wtf” again and went to my room but I couldn’t sleep because tomorrow was going to be the wc3l finals but ownitsch didn’t tell me anything (what time it was going to be etc). So I was knocking on the other players’ doors but nobody opened them and then after some time ownitsch appeared. I was asking him “what happened, where have you been?” Guess what? He told me to go eat and didn’t even explain anything to me. After that I was really thinking about flying home and told him that, but he was acting bad manned again and I was like “wtf!” He just closed the door to my face. I told myself “enough of this shit” and left to the reception. So they called ownitsch’s room and asked him to come downstairs. There I could ask him again if I will be playing or flying back the next day, but he was acting bad mannered again so I kicked him in the face. After that, inso kicked me in the face and said something about my mother so I in return kicked him (with my leg). After that we left to the rooms to go to sleep. The day after ownitsch told me that I will be flying back and called the police, the police took me away from the hotel and I had to be outside. And then I had to go to the PC club to look for the address of the wc3l finals. By the time I arrived there I was off the team. Then I had to give an interview and had to pay for a flight from Hamburg to to Kalinigrad to Moscow for 400 euro.
Post by Deadman when he was kicked off of SK gaming. Ahhh...fun times :D
"o they called ownitsch’s room and asked him to come downstairs. There I could ask him again if I will be playing or flying back the next day, but he was acting bad mannered again so I kicked him in the face. After that, inso kicked me in the face and said something about my mother so I in return kicked him (with my leg)."
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman.
Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain.
Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO.
UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems.
Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu.
almost all the players you talking about (farseer, who, heman, evenstar shortround) stopped playing just right when TFT went out... so you cant really compare them to xiaot etc.
Focus should be on the orc least, agreed. Guy was a beast.
The undead list has many "old" players in it.
Deadman got benched and carreer-destroyed after that "kick with the leg" thing. Good player, stupid boy. Oh god the memories :D
mOOnGLaDe was also a WC3 player! Strategic thinking used in WC3 can be transferred mostly to SC2, but as you're all well aware you have to brush up your mechanics and push them as far as you can to compete against the best.
On June 19 2013 04:39 monk wrote: A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China.
However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable:
The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down. An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds.
Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3.
everyone forgets about SeleCT too, but he was a beast in WC3.. and one of the best foreigner terrans today (if you consider him foreigner.. I have no idea what to consider him, but since hes lived outside of Korea for a long time now)
Shortround too, who was awesome.. I just played him on HotS ladder back in April too! Think hes just having fun though, not serious... if he was, look out USA.
On June 19 2013 08:39 SnowfaLL wrote: everyone forgets about SeleCT too, but he was a beast in WC3.. and one of the best foreigner terrans today (if you consider him foreigner.. I have no idea what to consider him, but since hes lived outside of Korea for a long time now)
Select is good but one of the best foreigner terrans? I would disagree maybe after a bit more practice, he is topping NA ladder right now so that is quite impressive considering that he switched games for a while but he has yet to prove himself in a recent tournament.
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Lucifron, demuslim and other players should never get close to top20 players ever. I wonder why so many people forgt about TH000, Soju, Zacard and other legends. For some reason people also are not even including some of the 4 UD legends: Lucifer, Sweet, Fov and Reign. Decent players like Creo/Susiria were also better than Lucifron/Demuslim (Lucifron used to be a total BM abuser ;/) and other players mentioned here.
some notes:
1) Remind said himself that Soju was his master and taught him everything he knew. 2) At some point, all NE were losing to UD players, with only Soju (and sometimes Moon) being able to beat them 3) When Sky came to the scene, he was much better than Tod. 4) When Lyn broke the scene, he was also better than grubby 5) All the big 3 UDs (Lucifer, fov and sweet) had their time of brilliance and domination, each on a different time. 6) Many o the players dicussed on this threat were only able to start winning tournaments and zotacs after the scene started dying 7) Infi was terrible when the scene was on top 8) Happy used to be a little bit BM (and too sincere) in WC3. He made very good points tho and had one of the best micros of all time.
Edit: Players like vortix, Bly, hasuobs and other names also only appeared in the very late scene (when wc3 was completely dead). On the other hand, Tod and Happy (mainly Tod) dominated when the scene was bigger. Violet also did pretty decent, but the scene was kinda dead as well
hasuobs played wc3 since almost forever. he was very solid, sometimes took games of koreans, but he wasnt a top 5 foreigner at any point probably. pretty much like in sc2 i think, lol.
infi was NOT terrible when the scene was in the prime. that must be some huge hate. violet was decent when the scene was on top, he was great when the scene started to die and won every cup when it was dead before transitioning into sc2.
you completly forget TeD.
sry dude, you got some things wrong in your head over time i think^^
I was going to mention TeD but I had typed so much already .Yes, you are right about violet and hasuobs and it was exactly what I tried to say, I actually meant that hasuobs became more recognized a little bit later. He was just an "ok" european player. Sorry I guess my english is just bad I didnt express myself very well.
I only disagree with Infi, he was not "terrible", but he took a little bit more time to get to the top when compared to other legends. I remember he used to lose every single of his wc3l matches, he only started rising when wc3 started dying.
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi).
I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all).
Lucifron, demuslim and other players should never get close to top20 players ever. I wonder why so many people forgt about TH000, Soju, Zacard and other legends. For some reason people also are not even including some of the 4 UD legends: Lucifer, Sweet, Fov and Reign. Decent players like Creo/Susiria were also better than Lucifron/Demuslim (Lucifron used to be a total BM abuser ;/) and other players mentioned here.
some notes:
1) Remind said himself that Soju was his master and taught him everything he knew. 2) At some point, all NE were losing to UD players, with only Soju (and sometimes Moon) being able to beat them 3) When Sky came to the scene, he was much better than Tod. 4) When Lyn broke the scene, he was also better than grubby 5) All the big 3 UDs (Lucifer, fov and sweet) had their time of brilliance and domination, each on a different time. 6) Many o the players dicussed on this threat were only able to start winning tournaments and zotacs after the scene started dying 7) Infi was terrible when the scene was on top 8) Happy used to be a little bit BM (and too sincere) in WC3. He made very good points tho and had one of the best micros of all time.
Edit: Players like vortix, Bly, hasuobs and other names also only appeared in the very late scene (when wc3 was completely dead). On the other hand, Tod and Happy (mainly Tod) dominated when the scene was bigger. Violet also did pretty decent, but the scene was kinda dead as well
hasuobs played wc3 since almost forever. he was very solid, sometimes took games of koreans, but he wasnt a top 5 foreigner at any point probably. pretty much like in sc2 i think, lol.
infi was NOT terrible when the scene was in the prime. that must be some huge hate. violet was decent when the scene was on top, he was great when the scene started to die and won every cup when it was dead before transitioning into sc2.
you completly forget TeD.
sry dude, you got some things wrong in your head over time i think^^
I was going to mention TeD but I had typed so much already .Yes, you are right about violet and hasuobs and it was exactly what I tried to say, I actually meant that hasuobs became more recognized a little bit later. He was just an "ok" european player. Sorry I guess my english is just bad I didnt express myself very well.
I only disagree with Infi, he was not "terrible", but he took a little bit more time to get to the top when compared to other legends. I remember he used to lose every single of his wc3l matches, he only started rising when wc3 started dying.
Infi had an insane record vs Ud when he first started wc3l. There was also always the factor of Chinese lag.
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman.
Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain.
Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO.
UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems.
Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu.
almost all the players you talking about (farseer, who, heman, evenstar shortround) stopped playing just right when TFT went out... so you cant really compare them to xiaot etc.
Focus should be on the orc least, agreed. Guy was a beast.
The undead list has many "old" players in it.
Deadman got benched and carreer-destroyed after that "kick with the leg" thing. Good player, stupid boy. Oh god the memories :D
What? FarSeer played for MYM as late as 2007 (he used to play under the nick a_headache, and he probably was at the top of his game in 2006-2007 season, when he went something ridiculous like 99-1 on the Kalimdor ladder versus top Korean players)
WhO made a comeback and joined SK in 2007-2008 I think, and actually won ESWC in 2008. You can check out WhO's achievements for yourself.
As for Undead, Blizzard pretty much killed the race. The only notable players were the old ones.
Edit: Also Holy Check! We completely forgot about Check ! Probably the most oldest and consistent WC3 player. He was solid as a rock through most of his career, except briefly when he switched to Orc because he couldn't handle the imbaness of Orc.
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman.
Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain.
Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO.
UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems.
Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu.
almost all the players you talking about (farseer, who, heman, evenstar shortround) stopped playing just right when TFT went out... so you cant really compare them to xiaot etc.
Focus should be on the orc least, agreed. Guy was a beast.
The undead list has many "old" players in it.
Deadman got benched and carreer-destroyed after that "kick with the leg" thing. Good player, stupid boy. Oh god the memories :D
What? FarSeer played for MYM as late as 2007 (he used to play under the nick a_headache, and he probably was at the top of his game in 2006-2007 season, when he went something ridiculous like 99-1 on the Kalimdor ladder versus top Korean players)
WhO made a comeback and joined SK in 2007-2008 I think. You can check out WhO's achievements for yourself.
On June 19 2013 08:45 monk wrote: Anyone remember how good select was? I honestly can't recall at all.
SeleCt had a great reputation on ladder and was supposedly really really good. He was on the YECA saints proteam (as SeleCt[Saint]) and later on in Phoenix clan (as Phoenix_AnelCa I think), Early on YECA saints merged with SK gaming, and he was briefly on SKs korean wc3 division (along with EvenStar, BestWolf, Angels, Skelton, Sweet etc.). He didn't play in many tournaments though, and switched to Dawn of War with its release, where he was pretty much the best DoW player in the world. He won 2 WCGs in DoW if I'm not mistaken.
Edit: I also remember some internal drama between Skelton (who was the playing captain/manager of SK kor briefly) and EvenStar, which led to EvenStar being sidelined for a while and not playing in many WC3L matches, even though he was supposed to be SK's strongest player at that time.
Me and my friend were recently trying to get a mutual friend into Starcraft 2. He said it seemed to difficult and he had no prior experience with it and that he never had played BW. We then started to discuss his previous gaming experience, and he stated that he played Warcraft 3 quite a lot.
So while Warcraft 3 is not identical to Starcraft 2, it still seems like the transition is not that difficult, seeing as we started to discuss how the Warcraft 3 pros were doing in Starcraft 2.
This lead to a long and interesting discussion, which brought up quite a few questions I'd like to bring up here aswell.
First of all, let us look at the current foreign SC2 pros, or more so the most succesful ones. Have you guys ever noticed that most of them are actually former WC3 players?
I mean Stephano was long regarded as the best foreigner and still is by many. Some of the best Swedish players are mostly former WC3 players aswell. (Naniwa, Thorzain, SjoW, Sase)
Actually I will just list some names now: Lucifron Vortix Demuslim Targa Bly Kas ToD NightEnd Grubby Harstem HasuObs Socke Happy Elfi MacSed
While obviously not all the listed are the top players right now, I still think it shows that in general the WC3 players seem to be the most succesful foreigners.
But if we go to the Korean scene, this does not seem to be the case. When Moon switched to SC2 he was hyped so much for being the best and most succesful WC3 player, but unfortunately he never really made a name of himself in SC2. He had a good IEM run and that is about it. I think the only noteable Korean ex-WC3 players are violet and polt.
So to sum it all up: How come the most succesful foreigners seem to be former WC3 players, while the former WC3 Korean players seem to have failed? Also it is odd that while the foreign BW players (Nerchio, Socke and so on) are definitely doing good, and especially in the beginning of SC2 the foreign BW players were obviously doing best, it seems that the WC3 players are just way more dominant on the foreign scene.
I mean this could probably just be explained by WC3 players catching up, but I still find it strange how big difference there is between the successrate between the Korean WC3 players and the foreign wc3 players in general. And considering so many former foreign WC3 players seem to be doing very good in SC2, I can't help but think they have a different mindset.
Korean WC3 players did not switch completely, most of them are still joining WC3 tournaments
On June 19 2013 08:39 SnowfaLL wrote: everyone forgets about SeleCT too, but he was a beast in WC3.. and one of the best foreigner terrans today (if you consider him foreigner.. I have no idea what to consider him, but since hes lived outside of Korea for a long time now)
never heard of select in wc3. What team was he in?
On June 19 2013 08:39 SnowfaLL wrote: everyone forgets about SeleCT too, but he was a beast in WC3.. and one of the best foreigner terrans today (if you consider him foreigner.. I have no idea what to consider him, but since hes lived outside of Korea for a long time now)
never heard of select in wc3. What team was he in?
You can add moonglade to that list. WC3 drew a lot of the young up & comers when BW was declining outside of Korea so it's only natural they make up a lot of the top players now.
For those who are interested in the situation between me and ownitsch, I am writing the story. When we were driving to Hamburg from Cologne (ownitsch was the driver), I had to smoke a cigarette because it’s a bit annoying to be stuck on the road when no cars are moving and everyone is waiting. I even opened a window so I won’t disturb anyone but ownitsch told me to stop smoking.I told him, “no, I need to smoke that cigarette!” He then stopped the car like crazy, stepped out of the driver’s seat, walked to the other side of the car, opened my door, and took my cigarette out of my hand (in bad manner). I walked off from the car and asked him why he was doing this, and kicked him in the body (because I can’t accept those bad manners from him, which he commited by removing my cigarette from my hand). After we had arrived at the hotel, gues what happened? Ownitsch told me that I will be flying home tomorrow and told me to stay here. I was like “wtf” ownitsch, why are you doing this? At the hotel I was taking another cigarette to smoke because I couldn’t believe what he told me, then after I smoked I came to him and asked him if I will be flying home tomorrow. Guess what happened? He just gave the room card. I was like “wtf” again and went to my room but I couldn’t sleep because tomorrow was going to be the wc3l finals but ownitsch didn’t tell me anything (what time it was going to be etc). So I was knocking on the other players’ doors but nobody opened them and then after some time ownitsch appeared. I was asking him “what happened, where have you been?” Guess what? He told me to go eat and didn’t even explain anything to me. After that I was really thinking about flying home and told him that, but he was acting bad manned again and I was like “wtf!” He just closed the door to my face. I told myself “enough of this shit” and left to the reception. So they called ownitsch’s room and asked him to come downstairs. There I could ask him again if I will be playing or flying back the next day, but he was acting bad mannered again so I kicked him in the face. After that, inso kicked me in the face and said something about my mother so I in return kicked him (with my leg). After that we left to the rooms to go to sleep. The day after ownitsch told me that I will be flying back and called the police, the police took me away from the hotel and I had to be outside. And then I had to go to the PC club to look for the address of the wc3l finals. By the time I arrived there I was off the team. Then I had to give an interview and had to pay for a flight from Hamburg to to Kalinigrad to Moscow for 400 euro.
Post by Deadman when he was kicked off of SK gaming. Ahhh...fun times :D
On June 19 2013 06:23 jinorazi wrote: couldnt it be like;
"koreans are dominating bw, its hard to be a bw pro in korea or anywhere, lets try our luck with wc3" (this would apply to korean non bw pros wanting to be bw pro)
so there just happens to be many wc3 pros playing sc2, and many of them fully capable of good bw pro if given the chance however since bw pro scene was so saturated with talent, it could be easier to become a wc3 pro.
seems plausible.
sc2 scene is still largely dominated by bw players. naturally there are more wc3 pros coming from na/eu since there wasnt a big bw scene and wc3 was bigger.
tldr: in korea bw scene held talent. in eu/na, wc3 scene held talent. so naturally, thats what we see with sc2 transition.
Amen man, you spoke out of my heart, SC2 is still dominated by Broodwar Pros
nich thread. I only read till the end of page 2 so far though.
thanks for the wc3 power rank monk "Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r)" haha, yes, tak3r... I remember him what was the name his 2v2 teammate?? something with an L... i was always kinda cheering for them but didnt know why :D
I particularly loved watching th000 play, his playstyle was amazing and unique. I think he was also most present in the top10 of game-of-the-year-replays for several years in a row.
MaNa, BRAT_OK, DIMAGA, TLO (TC + BW), Socke are all from Broodwar. While more top foreigners now are from Warcraft 3 - what does it mean? It simply means more top-foreign players came from Warcraft 3 to begin with, because the foreign broodwar scene wasn't that big to begin with and older than Warcraft 3. Lots of players quit and turned their back on eSports as an active player.
On June 19 2013 07:25 Inimic wrote: Grubby called it, that the wc3 players would eventually dominate the scene. Stephano was a wc3 player btw
And all do shit vs Koreans. Especially KeSPa who translate their training from years of Broodwar into Starcraft 2 did rise above everyone else within a few month.../ a year.
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman.
Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain.
Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO.
UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems.
Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu.
almost all the players you talking about (farseer, who, heman, evenstar shortround) stopped playing just right when TFT went out... so you cant really compare them to xiaot etc.
Focus should be on the orc least, agreed. Guy was a beast.
The undead list has many "old" players in it.
Deadman got benched and carreer-destroyed after that "kick with the leg" thing. Good player, stupid boy. Oh god the memories :D
What? FarSeer played for MYM as late as 2007 (he used to play under the nick a_headache, and he probably was at the top of his game in 2006-2007 season, when he went something ridiculous like 99-1 on the Kalimdor ladder versus top Korean players)
WhO made a comeback and joined SK in 2007-2008 I think, and actually won ESWC in 2008. You can check out WhO's achievements for yourself.
As for Undead, Blizzard pretty much killed the race. The only notable players were the old ones.
Edit: Also Holy Check! We completely forgot about Check ! Probably the most oldest and consistent WC3 player. He was solid as a rock through most of his career, except briefly when he switched to Orc because he couldn't handle the imbaness of Orc.
nah FarSeer played for mYm.Hanbit in 2005 as part of the partnership between Hanbit Stars & mYm. Beside ridiculous ladder score, his peak was MWL semis & beating countless top players in StarWars I (koth style). He moved to mouz and then NiP later iirc
WhO first came back as part of the Beijing Esport Team project (alongside Fov, Sweet, Zad, Check, Myth). He only switched to SK after BeT ceased operation
This thread is so unfair. First of all, I wouldn't say that WC3 players dominated foreign SC2 scene. Sure, recently there's been a few more former WC3 pros at the top than their BW counterparts but if you look at the whole lifetime of SC2 I would say BW players were slightly more successful (but then again, I might be as biased as you, WC3 fans).
Secondly, BW is a way older game. A LOT of exceptionally talented players retired YEARS before the release of SC2. The ones that transitioned, are a very small fraction of a talent pool that we had in our scene. I know of very many great retired players that thought about trying SC2 but commiting into something as fragile and unsure as Esports is too risky at the of ~24. If you compare it to WC3 which is a younger game and thus its players were much younger on average, they don't risk too much trying to get good at SC2 at the age of ~18-20.
Still, the distribution of top players in SC2 is fairly even and IMO, considering the above circumstances, it proves that BW was the more demanding and better game in general.
Never seen Polt play in any decent wc3 tournament. Also Soju requires a memorable mention to all those listed in monk's power rank.
Madfrog should be placed among Creolophus level. Damn he went to Korea, and dominated the ladder there, which was not done by any other foreign progamer.
On June 19 2013 10:53 JP Dayne wrote: Am i the only one that thinks that playing SC2 feels more like playing WC3 than BW?
You may be because I don't at all... WC3 was super slow paced and its mechanics are just completely different from SC2. In fact, SC2 have simple Starcraft mechanics but WC3 has a lot of weird shits going on like upkeep,heroes,natural creeps,mercenary and MORE!.
Me and my friend were recently trying to get a mutual friend into Starcraft 2. He said it seemed to difficult and he had no prior experience with it and that he never had played BW. We then started to discuss his previous gaming experience, and he stated that he played Warcraft 3 quite a lot.
So while Warcraft 3 is not identical to Starcraft 2, it still seems like the transition is not that difficult, seeing as we started to discuss how the Warcraft 3 pros were doing in Starcraft 2.
This lead to a long and interesting discussion, which brought up quite a few questions I'd like to bring up here aswell.
First of all, let us look at the current foreign SC2 pros, or more so the most succesful ones. Have you guys ever noticed that most of them are actually former WC3 players?
I mean Stephano was long regarded as the best foreigner and still is by many. Some of the best Swedish players are mostly former WC3 players aswell. (Naniwa, Thorzain, SjoW, Sase)
Actually I will just list some names now: Lucifron Vortix Demuslim Targa Bly Kas ToD NightEnd Grubby Harstem HasuObs Socke Happy Elfi MacSed
While obviously not all the listed are the top players right now, I still think it shows that in general the WC3 players seem to be the most succesful foreigners.
But if we go to the Korean scene, this does not seem to be the case. When Moon switched to SC2 he was hyped so much for being the best and most succesful WC3 player, but unfortunately he never really made a name of himself in SC2. He had a good IEM run and that is about it. I think the only noteable Korean ex-WC3 players are violet and polt.
So to sum it all up: How come the most succesful foreigners seem to be former WC3 players, while the former WC3 Korean players seem to have failed? Also it is odd that while the foreign BW players (Nerchio, Socke and so on) are definitely doing good, and especially in the beginning of SC2 the foreign BW players were obviously doing best, it seems that the WC3 players are just way more dominant on the foreign scene.
I mean this could probably just be explained by WC3 players catching up, but I still find it strange how big difference there is between the successrate between the Korean WC3 players and the foreign wc3 players in general. And considering so many former foreign WC3 players seem to be doing very good in SC2, I can't help but think they have a different mindset.
What if the former WC3 Korean players can become top foreigner level in SC2 if they struck it out? Obviously, that's not going to fly in Korea. Then again, you do have players like Polt and Violet who are Korean level and not foreigner level in SC2.
Former foreign WC3 players don't have a different mindset than former Korean WC3 players. They are just competing in a different scene. Even with the current WCS, it's still not easy for a Korean to compete in foreign tournaments. If the foreign WC3 players had to compete in Korean SC2 scene like the former Korean WC3 players did, they wouldn't amount to anything, either.
On June 19 2013 23:20 C[h]ili wrote: By now, the foreign BW heros are too old for this shit.
jaeh alot, but some (just think about white-ra) play until they die ^_^ dimaga etc alot was metioned, i think in the foreign scene bw AND wc3 players did both pretty well
On June 19 2013 23:20 C[h]ili wrote: By now, the foreign BW heros are too old for this shit.
jaeh alot, but some (just think about white-ra) play until they die ^_^ dimaga etc alot was metioned, i think in the foreign scene bw AND wc3 players did both pretty well
It's interesting that you bring up white-ra. Real-world earnings are pretty low in his country, so he is doing fine with stream money alone. On the other side, for example Mondragon should have fnished his degree in business administration by now and he should earn pretty good (does anybody know what he is doing?). So of course he is no longer playing SC2!
European WC3 was dominating the RTS foreign scene, so naturally when they switch WC3 players will dominate the SC2 foreign scene. Korean BW scene was dominating the RTS Korean scene, so naturally when they switch BW players will dominate the SC2 scene.
*insert a random country* Solitaire scene was dominating the competitive scene, so natually when they switch Solitaire players will dominate the SC2 scene.
On June 19 2013 23:24 CoR wrote: i rly wonde why the korean wc3 gamers did so poorly
I don't think they did that poorly. It's more like there're not enough players to make a big splash. Korean WC3 scene when SC2 came out was kind of dead. People were retired/military duty/married/move to China. If you compare the ratio of active Korean WC3 players in SC2 scene, it doesn't look that bad.
I think overall it's about the quantity of players in the scene. WC3 Korean scene didn't have many players playing SC2 to begin with.
I think the amount of notable high level foreign war3 players that switched over to sc2 is much higher than the amount of notable foreign bw players. As for why the korean war3 players didn't exactly blow the sc2 scene up, the competition is much more fierce in korea. They were competing with Brood War pros and not lots of newer rts players, which is how it went down in EU/NA, or at least this is how I view it anyways.
Also consider the war3 players came into sc2 most likely with no or limited knowledge on how to play the game. Brood War players switched over with pre-conceived notions on how they should play SC2, and I think especially early on this caused a lot of problems. I'm thinking mostly of how rushes gained a bad reputation after WoL launched. Lots of War3 players just played to win, lots of foreign BW players would try to avoid "cheap" tactics (which looking back, it was complete nonsense).
On June 19 2013 23:52 AnomalySC2 wrote: Also consider the war3 players came into sc2 most likely with no or limited knowledge on how to play the game. Brood War players switched over with pre-conceived notions on how they should play SC2, and I think especially early on this caused a lot of problems. I'm thinking mostly of how rushes gained a bad reputation after WoL launched. Lots of War3 players just played to win, lots of foreign BW players would try to avoid "cheap" tactics (which looking back, it was complete nonsense).
Baloney. You must be only thinking about players who liked to drone up. Very narrow minded.
On June 19 2013 23:52 AnomalySC2 wrote: Also consider the war3 players came into sc2 most likely with no or limited knowledge on how to play the game. Brood War players switched over with pre-conceived notions on how they should play SC2, and I think especially early on this caused a lot of problems. I'm thinking mostly of how rushes gained a bad reputation after WoL launched. Lots of War3 players just played to win, lots of foreign BW players would try to avoid "cheap" tactics (which looking back, it was complete nonsense).
Baloney. You must be only thinking about players who liked to drone up. Very narrow minded.
On June 19 2013 07:01 Musicus wrote: Someone (Take would be perfect for the job) should organize a wc3 tournament with current sc2 pros.
This!
I'd watch that, I got into competitive WC3 too late to follow any scene (started playing like 2005, started playing actual 1v1s in ~2011) so it would be great to see some current WC3 :D
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
On June 19 2013 06:37 Aiobhill wrote: Hanfy plays SC2. Tak3r was quite active in the beta and at least 'a' AKM was resonably high ealier on the Korean ladder iirc.
I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough.
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
BM/SH 4grunts/raiders/spirit walker for spirit link (and obviously dispel if needed), take an expo at tier 2 when undead had no way to stop it. That was the standard last I played/paid attention to the scene. Speaking of the Blade Master....*shudders*
Semi competitive Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
The joke almost writes itself.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
BM/SH 4grunts/raiders/spirit walker for spirit link (and obviously dispel if needed), take an expo at tier 2 when undead had no way to stop it. That was the standard last I played/paid attention to the scene. Speaking of the Blade Master....*shudders*
Yeah, most games I won were due to Blade Master harass into two grunts then raiders
My general tactic though as the game progessed was to get Tauren, 3/3, raiders, Shamans and kodos...
I don't know whether these were actual builds though cause I didn't follow any proscene.
While you were a nostalgic nerd playing SC1 in 2010 in Europe, you were a hyped well earning professional in Korea. The guys that were good enough to make a living off Esports played WC3 because that was the only place were you could make a living from an RTS.
heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
BM/SH 4grunts/raiders/spirit walker for spirit link (and obviously dispel if needed), take an expo at tier 2 when undead had no way to stop it. That was the standard last I played/paid attention to the scene. Speaking of the Blade Master....*shudders*
Yeah, most games I won were due to Blade Master harass into two grunts then raiders
My general tactic though as the game progessed was to get Tauren, 3/3, raiders, Shamans and kodos...
I don't know whether these were actual builds though cause I didn't follow any proscene.
I can remember same games grubby pulled a strategy out like that (I think a game on Turtle Rock vs Moon maybe), though you rarely saw shaman or tauren towards the end. Bloodlusted tauren and BM is lol dps.
On June 20 2013 00:40 Schelim wrote: [quote] heh. the difference is that Naniwa was really bad at war3 and never had any memorable results, which is unfortunately far from the truth in sc2.
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
BM/SH 4grunts/raiders/spirit walker for spirit link (and obviously dispel if needed), take an expo at tier 2 when undead had no way to stop it. That was the standard last I played/paid attention to the scene. Speaking of the Blade Master....*shudders*
Yeah, most games I won were due to Blade Master harass into two grunts then raiders
My general tactic though as the game progessed was to get Tauren, 3/3, raiders, Shamans and kodos...
I don't know whether these were actual builds though cause I didn't follow any proscene.
I can remember same games grubby pulled a strategy out like that (I think a game on Turtle Rock vs Moon maybe), though you rarely saw shaman or tauren towards the end. Bloodlusted tauren and BM is lol dps.
Yeah, Bloodlust was a lot of fun! Nice to see that I wasn't too far off the mark if it got pulled off at least once or twice, knowing about spirit walkers would have been unbelievably helpful though as my friend usually went undead TT
If I remember he was an undead player and one of the more notable undeads at that. Undead was a....very unexplored race in war3, and not many at all had success with it, especially during the later years of the scene. There was like Ted and Happy, those were basically the only 2 und players that took any high placements at tournaments during the era before SC2 launched.
This makes the fact I always struggled against my Undead friend worse :s
Not so much lol. Undead was extremely strong, it's just no one really wanted to try anything new. It was always dk/lich + fiends of some sort xD.
My friend would end up with meatwagon + necromancer and ended up with an army I couldn't kill
Now that was a strategy like no one ever used. People thought, ok elf has dryads/wisps (both of which were used vs undead standard anyways), orc has spirit walkers (also standard), undead has destroyers (standard) and human has assloads of towers, can't use it, too much dispel. I have to admit I never really tried it much after RoC so I wasn't really sure how good it was.
What did you main in war3?
I was Orc. I can see now that my problem was I never used Spirit Walkers...
BM/SH 4grunts/raiders/spirit walker for spirit link (and obviously dispel if needed), take an expo at tier 2 when undead had no way to stop it. That was the standard last I played/paid attention to the scene. Speaking of the Blade Master....*shudders*
Yeah, most games I won were due to Blade Master harass into two grunts then raiders
My general tactic though as the game progessed was to get Tauren, 3/3, raiders, Shamans and kodos...
I don't know whether these were actual builds though cause I didn't follow any proscene.
I can remember same games grubby pulled a strategy out like that (I think a game on Turtle Rock vs Moon maybe), though you rarely saw shaman or tauren towards the end. Bloodlusted tauren and BM is lol dps.
Yeah, Bloodlust was a lot of fun! Nice to see that I wasn't too far off the mark if it got pulled off at least once or twice, knowing about spirit walkers would have been unbelievably helpful though as my friend usually went undead TT
Yeah you could use that vs any race really. Spirit link would spread the damage between your entire army (which is already high hp), and lvl 2 healing wave would heal it all back up + healing scrolls if you got your expo up and running. Nothing scarier than a tanky and practically infinite hp blade master ^_^
All the BW talents bled to WC3. The best foreigners in BW became the best because they stayed in the scene while others chose to play War3. Foreign War3 pros like Stephano Naniwa Thorzain Demuslim would've outplayed Idra Ret in BW if they were told to invest their time on BW under their war3 training regiment.
Same can be said about Sziky becoming the foreign BW Bonjwa. Guy didn't even make it to the TSL2 tournament. He dominates the foreign BW scene simply because the other players left.
On June 20 2013 02:39 ppshchik wrote: All the BW talents bled to WC3. The best foreigners in BW became the best because they stayed in the scene while others chose to play War3. Foreign War3 pros like Stephano Naniwa Thorzain Demuslim would've outplayed Idra Ret in BW if they were told to invest their time on BW under their war3 training regiment.
Same can be said about Sziky becoming the foreign BW Bonjwa. Guy didn't even make it to the TSL2 tournament. He dominates the foreign BW scene simply because the other players left.
Well it's a bit much to say that, but obviously they would have been good at BW.
On June 20 2013 02:39 ppshchik wrote: All the BW talents bled to WC3. The best foreigners in BW became the best because they stayed in the scene while others chose to play War3. Foreign War3 pros like Stephano Naniwa Thorzain Demuslim would've outplayed Idra Ret in BW if they were told to invest their time on BW under their war3 training regiment.
Same can be said about Sziky becoming the foreign BW Bonjwa. Guy didn't even make it to the TSL2 tournament. He dominates the foreign BW scene simply because the other players left.
In which world are Stephano and Naniwa WC3 pros? And in which world did the european wc3 players have a training regiment anywhere close to what Idra and Ret had in korea?
On June 20 2013 02:39 ppshchik wrote: All the BW talents bled to WC3. The best foreigners in BW became the best because they stayed in the scene while others chose to play War3. Foreign War3 pros like Stephano Naniwa Thorzain Demuslim would've outplayed Idra Ret in BW if they were told to invest their time on BW under their war3 training regiment.
Same can be said about Sziky becoming the foreign BW Bonjwa. Guy didn't even make it to the TSL2 tournament. He dominates the foreign BW scene simply because the other players left.
In which world are Stephano and Naniwa WC3 pros? And in which world did the european wc3 players have a training regiment anywhere close to what Idra and Ret had in korea?
Which is why Ret and Idra are doing so much better than Naniwa and Stephano. Korean training.
Ret has played in way more GSL matches than Stephano and Idra has gone much further in the GSL than Naniwa.
Wasn't Moon playing WC3 and SC2 when he first switched and was doing really good for someone playing 2 games simultaneously? I'm not sure if he tried going full SC2 afterwards or not but he did just kind of stop and vanished afterwards.
Wow..so many fucking memories. So many hours of Warcraft3 and everything related to warcraft.I mean I remember watching so many freaking replays and never for 1 second getting tired.And im really sad that people dont really mention MadfroG.Sure he wasnt at the freaking PEAK but the guy was a beast. I still remember his epic early matches with Moon and Tod.I was pretty bummed that he didntlike the game anymore and quit.
Even towards the end of Wc3 I was still following it very much. I was there for every stage that wc3 was in.
I love threads like these. Man and so many names that slipped my mind cause I never really though about wc3 that much for some time.Like when I saw names like Deadman and Shortround , Soju , Insomnia, Susiria. I was like holy shit I forgot those.
this thread made my made and obviously tthe power rank blog :D
le : O not to mention wcreplays . com, that was like my home, + the audio commentaries. Nowadys we just have youtube commentaries. In that time usually there werent so many but we had the wcreplays audio ones where u had to sink up with the speaker like 3...2...1.. UNPAUSE...no try again.
On June 20 2013 03:50 Diavolo222 wrote: Wow..so many fucking memories. So many hours of Warcraft3 and everything related to warcraft.I mean I remember watching so many freaking replays and never for 1 second getting tired.And im really sad that people dont really mention MadfroG.Sure he wasnt at the freaking PEAK but the guy was a beast. I still remember his epic early matches with Moon and Tod.I was pretty bummed that he didntlike the game anymore and quit.
Even towards the end of Wc3 I was still following it very much. I was there for every stage that wc3 was in.
I love threads like these. Man and so many names that slipped my mind cause I never really though about wc3 that much for some time.Like when I saw names like Deadman and Shortround , Soju , Insomnia, Susiria. I was like holy shit I forgot those.
this thread made my made and obviously tthe power rank blog :D
le : O not to mention wcreplays . com, that was like my home, + the audio commentaries. Nowadys we just have youtube commentaries. In that time usually there werent so many but we had the wcreplays audio ones where u had to sink up with the speaker like 3...2...1.. UNPAUSE...no try again.
hahaha good times. It warms the soul to know wcreplays is still going too.
The main thing that made the WC3 scene fun was the WC3L. Best teamleague in any game ever. Nothing in SC2 has even reached its knees so far. The scene was at its peak when teams like Sk, mYm, 4k, mTw, 64AMD were duking it out weekly, with a good mix of korean and foreigners.
I kinda lost interest in the scene after Creolophus retired. I feel like after that, it was always the same 10-15 players vs each other. Orc was also way too strong with Blademaster. TeD and Th000 were fun to watch, but the magic wasn't there with the lack of patches, proper WC3L and a strong foreign scene.
On June 20 2013 06:17 OKMarius wrote: [...], it was always the same 10-15 players vs each other.
Exactly this is what i miss in sc2. Most likely all 3 months there are the other 10-15 players in the top20 worldwide best players. And see 1x monthly Parting vs Life or Innovation vs Soulkey is not enough for me.
In wc3, for several years the same 10-15 players, they played like 5x monthly each other.
On June 19 2013 18:44 Dingodile wrote: Everyone forgot HoT? :D He was the best EU Nightelf every year except 2007 (Creolophus).
HoT was very good, but in no way the best EU NE "every year except 2007". Zeus was better in early TFT, and Deadman was always better until around 2006, and then Creolophus took the crown some time after joining 4k.
In the transitional period between Deadman and Creo's respective "reigns", Creo, HoT, Deadman, SaSe and Satiini were pretty even.
EPT
And XlorD was wc3 player too. Naama also, etc.
Terran 
Zerg 
Protoss 
. I think you are mixing him up with Philbot, who was another Australian wc3 player who was semi-successful on the international level and went DK+fiends every single game (including UD mirror, where Lich first was clearly the strongest build).
