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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
 Xenocider is 15 and he won't turn 16 until August. Why can he take part in WCS? Has the age restriction been lifted? Or does it only apply to WCS EU? HeRoMaRinE couldn't participate in WCS EU because of the age restriction and he is at least Challenger League material :|I don't want to get anyone disqualified, but it's unfair that it is different in different regions. WCS KR never had this restriction. Can this restriction be lifted for the other region if it still exists? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
This likely isn't a WCS thing or something they could control. | ||
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On April 11 2013 23:19 th3rogue wrote: Only when necessary. The age restriction for WCS is set by Blizzard for all WCS regions. On April 12 2013 00:07 th3rogue wrote: According to what we have been told, yes. It's possible that exceptions have been made for him/WCS Korea for this season, as WCS Korea "took over" the running GSL | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 03:36 SinCitta wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407359#11 And that is likely based on local laws and differs from region to region(like everything else). You should look the rules up yourself, rather than demanding people do the work for you. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'd be surprised if there wasn't an exception for players like Maru and Xenocider. | ||
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Mormel
Netherlands57 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On June 19 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote: And that is likely based on local laws and differs from region to region(like everything else). You should look the rules up yourself, rather than demanding people do the work for you. I don't even know which law I have to look for. Youth protection law, minors in TV law (is TwitchTV even considered TV under the German law?), employment laws, gambling laws? There are certainly people that are more qualified for this. Maybe we get a statement from German law student/ESL/Blizzard/EG/mouz? The second quote from my updated post above (here) says pretty unambigiously that the age restriction of 16 should be applied to all WCS regions. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 03:58 SinCitta wrote: I don't even know which law I have to look for. Youth protection law, minors in TV law (is TwitchTV even considered TV under the German law?), employment laws, gambling laws? There are certainly people that are more qualified for this. Maybe we get a statement from German law student/ESL/Blizzard/EG/mouz? The second quote from my updated post above (here) says pretty unambigiously that the age restriction of 16 should be applied to all WCS regions. I meant why don't you look up the WCS rules for each region and find out. There are somewhere out there. Also, linking to another post in TL from a random person claiming how the rules work for WCS does not prove anything. It's not really that big of a deal. Since a 15 year old couldn't enter without a parents approval in the US, WCS is likely aware of his age. | ||
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Lunchador
United States776 Posts
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On June 19 2013 03:54 Mormel wrote: MaruPrime is also 15 and he's playing in the WCS Maru also wasn't allowed to play at one of the recent IEMs due to his age after qualifying (he misinterpreted the age restriction and used his Korean age). Maru's in Code S, and no one's kicking him out. Heromarine can't play because he's too young according to some German law or ESL position. Pretty cut and dry. | ||
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Greendotz
United Kingdom2053 Posts
On June 19 2013 03:42 monk wrote: I'm not sure where you heard this rule. I just know that ESL, the league that runs WCS EU, has always had this age restriction. That might be where the misconception comes from. Well that put a pin in it. Yep, pretty sure it's just an ESL thing. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: I meant why don't you look up the WCS rules for each region and find out. There are somewhere out there. Also, linking to another post in TL from a random person claiming how the rules work for WCS does not prove anything. It's not really that big of a deal. Since a 15 year old couldn't enter without a parents approval in the US, WCS is likely aware of his age. The random person is the ESL Community Manager for SC2 and some posts earlier you find the statement of the ESL Headadmin. They explicitly say that the restriction has not been set by ESL (and yes, I know other ESL events have an age restriction set by ESL themselves) but in this case they were told by Blizzard that there is one. And I couldn't find a complete rulebook for WCS if there is one. Just some rules on blog posts, FAQs and copy-pastes on the tournament system's rule pages. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:28 SinCitta wrote: The random person is the ESL Community Manager for SC2 and some posts earlier you find the statement of the ESL Headadmin. They explicitly say that the restriction has not been set by ESL (and yes, I know other ESL events have an age restriction set by ESL themselves) but in this case they were told by Blizzard that there is one. And I couldn't find a complete rulebook for WCS if there is one. Just some rules on blog posts, FAQs and copy-pastes on the tournament system's rule pages. Well it has been answer above. The WCS KR is 12 years old and I don't know what NA is, but I bet it allows 15 year olds to play. Its a Germany thing. | ||
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Race is Terran
United States382 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:12 Lunchador wrote: Age restriction for WCS Korea is 12. I think all the regions have their own rules when it comes to this. cant have them 11 year old prodigies wiping the floor against current named gosus | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote: Well it has been answer above. The WCS KR is 12 years old and I don't know what NA is, but I bet it allows 15 year olds to play. Its a Germany thing. You are very stubborn in not reading, it is not and has been explianed multiple times now, no matter how much you would like to ignore it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:38 grs wrote: You are very stubborn in not reading, it is not and has been explianed multiple times now, no matter how much you would like to ignore it. Explain why. Is the WCS KR age restriction not 12 years old? What is the NA age restriction? What is EU? Other people have responded, but you folks just keep linking to the same post over and over like it proves something. | ||
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
In any case, either ESL is lying or there was a severe miscommunication between Blizzard and their regional partners again. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:49 SinCitta wrote: Can I have a source on the WCS KR age restriction? I know that there is a GSL age restriction of 12 years. But it is possible that Blizzard unified it to 16 with the introduction of WCS Korea. In any case, either ESL is lying or there was a severe miscommunication between Blizzard and their regional partners again. Or ESL is keeping the rules and Xeno was overlooked in NA. We had already figured out that GSL, won't kick a qualified player and seems to have a special case. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:54 AgentW wrote: JimmyJRaynor, is that you? LoL, really? I hope not. I vowed to avoid arguing with him if at all possible. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:56 Plansix wrote: LoL, really? I hope not. I vowed to avoid arguing with him if at all possible. I was joking, but this sounds like something he would be going on. | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:44 Plansix wrote: Explain why. Is the WCS KR age restriction not 12 years old? What is the NA age restriction? What is EU? Other people have responded, but you folks just keep linking to the same post over and over like it proves something. Literally the guy running WCS EU (together with Kennigit now) says: On April 11 2013 23:15 Shawngood wrote: The age restriction applies for all WCS regions though. and the ESL SC2 Community manager says On April 11 2013 23:19 th3rogue wrote: Only when necessary. The age restriction for WCS is set by Blizzard for all WCS regions. Plansix's response: linking to another post in TL from a random person claiming how the rules work for WCS does not prove anything Literally a random person on TL says: On June 19 2013 04:12 Lunchador wrote: Age restriction for WCS Korea is 12. Plansix's response: On June 19 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote: Well it has been answer above. The WCS KR is 12 years old and I don't know what NA is, but I bet it allows 15 year olds to play. Its a Germany thing. So that says something or what? You refuse to believe the guys running the tournament who are in constant contact with Blizzard on rules and shit that it's supposedly for all regions and not a Germany thing, but you're immediately willing to accept the answer of a random guy on TL because it doesn't contradict your own opinion. I'm not saying the information posted back then is necessarily still true, but tell me again how you're not stubborn. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:01 AgentW wrote: Thanks for digging that up StarVe. I think this has the potential to be a problem. Maybe Maru gets grandfathered in or something? Of note, Xenocider is almost 16 also. Thanks, StarVe!  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:57 StarVe wrote: Literally the guy running WCS EU (together with Kennigit now) says: and the ESL SC2 Community manager says Plansix's response: Literally a random person on TL says: Plansix's response: So that says something or what? You refuse to believe the guys running the tournament who are in constant contact with Blizzard on rules and shit that it's supposedly for all regions and not a Germany thing, but you're immediately willing to accept the answer of a random guy on TL because it doesn't contradict your own opinion. I'm not saying the information posted back then is necessarily still true, but tell me again how you're not stubborn. Valid point and I do concede that I did take Lunchador on face value, since I knew the Korean age limit was very low(under 14) from a previous discussion on TL about underage players in Korea. In truth, I found the post that is being used in the thread in regards to the age restriction to be a bit broad and does not provide any specific details at to the rule itself. But I am confused why people even talking about this. Each region and country is going to have its own laws covering minors and that could be the reason why some players cannot play. Even if the WCS rules all say 14 or 16 or 12, the local laws would still apply. It is totally reasonable to believe that each country is going to have its own age limit, since WCS can't make a one size fits all rule for the entire world. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
I have a hard time imagining countries having laws that would forbid someone under 16 to play in a video game tournament. Why you seem to think that each country has an age limit for playing in a tournament seems beyond silly to me. That just isn't the way it is. I've seen Germany mentioned a couple times, and maybe they do have some crazy anti-fun law, but I think a law like that would be quite rare. This thread is about WCS rules and what they are, nothing else. Nobody is asking what the laws are. The point is, there shouldn't be exceptions for some players who are too young to compete, while denying others players the same opportunity. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:11 skipdog172 wrote: I'm not sure why you keep talking about individual laws in each country. I have a hard time imagining countries having laws that would forbid someone under 16 to play in a video game tournament. Why you seem to think that each country has an age limit for playing in a tournament seems beyond silly to me. That just isn't the way it is. I've seen Germany mentioned a couple times, and maybe they do have some crazy anti-fun law, but I think a law like that would be quite rare. This thread is about WCS rules and what they are, nothing else. Nobody is asking what the laws are. The point is, there shouldn't be exceptions for some players who are too young to compete, while denying others players the same opportunity. A "teenagers can not play in competetive Tournaments including Prize Money. Teenagers that are 16 or older may compete with their Parents permission." rule wont surprise me at all in Germany, actually. :o | ||
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:22 Daumen wrote: A "teenagers can not play in competetive Tournaments including Prize Money. Teenagers that are 16 or older may compete with their Parents permission." rule wont surprise me at all in Germany, actually. :o Wow, the German government must really hate HeRoMaRinE then, changing the law in response of WCS 2012. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:22 Daumen wrote: A "teenagers can not play in competetive Tournaments including Prize Money. Teenagers that are 16 or older may compete with their Parents permission." rule wont surprise me at all in Germany, actually. :o Can you provide a citation or link for that? People might need it. I don't know why people would think there are no laws governing minors competing for cash. | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:24 Plansix wrote: Can you provide a citation or link for that? People might need it. I don't know why people would think there are no laws governing minors competing for cash. He said it wont surprise him to see something like that in our rules. But he doesnt say that he knows it is that way. I dont think that something with prize money under age of bla is there. Else u won't have some Teenagers already playing for football clubs or something at low ages and already getting paid. U just need someone who holds the money until u get to a certain age. Dunno if Gaming goes against some other laws that cause age problems or not. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:37 Race is Terran wrote: cant have them 11 year old prodigies wiping the floor against current named gosus Don't forget that SC2 has been rated T (Teen) by the ESRB. It says: "Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older". Blizzard (or god knows who :D) has to draw a line somewhere. Would be weird to have only a bunch of 9-year-old being the progamers of a 18+ rated game :D | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:30 ZenithM wrote: Don't forget that SC2 has been rated T (Teen) by the ESRB. It says: "Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older". Blizzard (or god knows who :D) has to draw a line somewhere. The rating (T) doesnt mean u are not allowed to play it before. It's just a measurement for the parents who maybe are not so informed and only a general guideline. U don't have to follow it, atleast in our country. Something else with games on index or 18. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:32 semmeL wrote: The rating (T) doesnt mean u are not allowed to play it before. It's just a measurement for the parents who maybe are not so informed and only a general guideline. U don't have to follow it, atleast in our country. Something else with games on index or 18. Yeah but I mean, if Blizzard did enforce an age restriction like that for the WCS, they could easily justify that as a lower bound at least. I know the ratings don't really matter otherwise. | ||
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TumNarDok
Germany854 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=301345&cid=0&kind=8 one of 4 german laws regulating the work for teenagers (14-18) http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/jarbschg/__14.html -- Still unknown though where the Blizzard rules came from, probably from their legal department after revisioning european laws. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:24 Plansix wrote: Can you provide a citation or link for that? People might need it. I don't know why people would think there are no laws governing minors competing for cash. I just tried to say that the "crazy anti-fun laws" that skipdog172 mentioned, arent as unimaginable in germany as he thinks they are, I didnt say that they were true. I actually checked the JuSchG (Jugendschutzgesetz, hard to translate, Laws to protect Children?) here. They dont mention Tournaments though, I tried looking it up because I thought the ESL were having the Age restriction because of our Rules(NOT SAY THAT THEY DO, I JUST THOUGHT THAT). They mention Lottery and Gambling, yet they wont apply here afair(as far as I can read). Before you ask, they should be allowed to, since there are Teenage Athletes, right? Not necessarily, keep in mind that E-Sports are not legally Sports in Germany. | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:35 ZenithM wrote: Yeah but I mean, if Blizzard did enforce an age restriction like that for the WCS, they could easily justify that as a lower bound at least. I know the ratings don't really matter otherwise. Yeah, could be some legal issues with showing people playing, who are underage, on stream with so many viewers. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:36 TumNarDok wrote: 12 years restriction for WCS KR Source: http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=301345&cid=0&kind=8 one of 4 german laws regulating the work for teenagers (14-18) http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/jarbschg/__14.html -- Still unknown though where the Blizzard rules came from, probably from their legal department after revisioning european laws. Im not sure wether that rule applies to Gaming... this is not about "work", its about Tournaments, isnt it? Not sure about legal stuff, ill ask a friend of mine that studies Law (or are you studying law too, maybe?) | ||
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TumNarDok
Germany854 Posts
Copuld be seen as work, or maybe there is also something for "competitions". (man german law is a jungle lol) | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
looket that up. "... video games only allowed to give to children/young people designated their age in public..", same applies to new medias (i assume streaming etc would be under these things). So legal problems to show people playing games not their age for the public. Edit: oh also found the english official translation for that german children law in english | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:40 Daumen wrote: Im not sure wether that rule applies to Gaming... this is not about "work", its about Tournaments, isnt it? Not sure about legal stuff, ill ask a friend of mine that studies Law (or are you studying law too, maybe?) In the US, the prize money would be considered "income" and there are legal restrictions on that when it comes to minors. Law is generally not that cut and dry and judges decided how to apply them. So it is best to take a "better safe that sorry route" and jut assume the law applies to what you are doing. On June 19 2013 05:46 semmeL wrote: http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/gesetze,did=5350.html looket that up. "... video games only allowed to give to people complying with FSK requirements in the public..", same applies to new medias (i assume streaming etc would be under these things). So legal problems to show people playing games not their age for the public. That's interesting. We don't have anything like that in the US. The more people look up, the more it seems like someone said "Fuck it, make the age 16 so we don't have to deal with the legal mine field." | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
"§ 6 Gambling rooms, games of chance (1) Children and Adolescents must not be permitted to be present in gambling rooms or comparable gambling facilities. (2) Participation of Children and Adolescents in games with prizes run in the public shall be restricted to fun-fairs, folklore festivals and comparable events under the condition of low- value prizes in kind. " under point (2) and Data Media Chapter3.. and so on | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: In the US, the prize money would be considered "income" and there are legal restrictions on that when it comes to minors. Law is generally not that cut and dry and judges decided how to apply them. So it is best to take a "better safe that sorry route" and jut assume the law applies to what you are doing. That's interesting. We don't have anything like that in the US. The more people look up, the more it seems like someone said "Fuck it, make the age 16 so we don't have to deal with the legal mine field." Thats a pretty good desctiption... Minefield, i like that... also applies to the Tax rules in Germany... :D | ||
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TumNarDok
Germany854 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: That's interesting. We don't have anything like that in the US. The more people look up, the more it seems like someone said "Fuck it, make the age 16 so we don't have to deal with the legal mine field." Which is what i would do if i ran a gaming platform with 3 million gamers, half of which probably are starting with video games at like .. 11.. 12. If anyone has expertise in the field then its yep ESL, and Blizzard has aswell, from now 10 years of running WoW. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:00 TumNarDok wrote: Which is what i would do if i ran a gaming platform with 3 million gamers, half of which probably are starting with video games at like .. 11.. 12. If anyone has expertise in the field then its yep ESL, and Blizzard has aswell, from now 10 years of running WoW. Oh I am sure there is a member of Blizzards legal department that just shoots down ideas all day. Most the the discussions must go like this: Blizzard-Esports: We would like have anyone who can play our game sign up for WCS and compete. As long as they can reach a keyboard and mouse, we want them to be able to play. Blizzard-Legal: I hope you don't want to vacation in Germany, England or Iceland, because they will arrest you when you land. You specifically, because you came up with the idea. Blizzard-Esports: You know, you could just say its not allowed by law in those countries. Blizzard-Legal: I did that before and people just tried to find ways around them. Now I just try to scare the shit out of people so they don't try. It would be a lot like my discussions with our very silly clients. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:46 semmeL wrote: http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/gesetze,did=5350.html looket that up. "... video games only allowed to give to children/young people designated their age in public..", same applies to new medias (i assume streaming etc would be under these things). So legal problems to show people playing games not their age for the public. Edit: oh also found the english official translation for that german children law in english SC2 is 12+ | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
It's 12+ but read the Paragraph i posted above with prize money. | ||
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Shodaa
Canada404 Posts
It's actually 16+ in some region of Europe Box picture in spoiler: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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semmeL
Germany85 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:13 Shodaa wrote: It's actually 16+ in some region of Europe Box picture in spoiler: + Show Spoiler + If its also 16+ in some regions of eruope, dunno with laws and whatever if u allow someone resident in another part of europe to play it in germany and so on... will get complicated i think. Or dont know maybe not. But i think the part with prize money is also a big part. + Show Spoiler + german children law in english (2) Participation of Children and Adolescents in games with prizes run in the public shall be restricted to fun-fairs, folklore festivals and comparable events under the condition of low- value prizes in kind. " | ||
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Junichi
Germany1056 Posts
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:13 Shodaa wrote: It's actually 16+ in some region of Europe Box picture in spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Thanks for your post, I checked my German-Wings of Liberty Box: USK 12 | ||
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a9arnn
United States1537 Posts
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