History/Information Rank 1 Diamond NA (not much, but have played to high plat on KR) Made Masters twice on EU, but got demoted back to diamond after being beat too much. Played RTS from Warcraft 2 onward (i'm 31 this year) Follow SC2 fairly regularly (streams, replays, etc) Play somewhere over 25 games a week (sometimes more, some less, 57% ratio)
Problem I feel like i'm bumping into a skill ceiling every 5-10 games (the way MMR works, thats probably about right)
What i mean here is that, every 5-10 games, I run into mid masters players (or sometimes equal level diamonds, e.g., rank 1), that stomp me into the ground, by the sheer fact that they are faster.
I feel we both understand the game just fine, I know what i need to do, but they just do it quicker (I have 1 build per matchup, practice those exclusively)
This results in a few losses, bumping me back down to playing Diamonds below me and the cycle repeats (and also means a lack of promotion)
Note: When i return home, i'll post my MMR-Stats of the last 100ish games, to illustrate what i mean.
My Questions
Am i achieving all i can mechanically due to age vs speed? Hope that doesnt sound stupid, but it feels like a legitimate question. It seems widely accepted in a pro capacity that once you get to an 'age' you just can't compete.
Anyone similar age experienced this before and did you overcome it?
Simply accept you'll be Forever Diamond?
I really dont intend this to be a whine post, i literally dont know how much more I can do in game ... Do I just bounce around this level, and just have to get ok with that?
I suppose your speed deteriorates over time when you age, but it should definitely be possible to be higher than diamond with relatively low APM.
Perhaps you need to work on playing with other builds or trying new things, try scouting early and seeing what they are doing and choose an appropriate build to counter him accordingly.
Don't lose hope or think you will be forever diamond, I don't believe that your skill is capped due to your age.
EDIT: Just to add; instead of practicing one build, you should just try to play safe and scout and do your build on the fly to counter what your opponent is doing - thats how i play, and i've been a solid master player for quite some time, with very little practice.
The fact that you made this thread shows that you are concerned about your age and it could cause a mental block hindering your learning, cos every loss you might blame on your "age"...
If you think you lose because you lack speed, you're totally wrong. No way in hell you can't hit masters if you have the knowledge and know how to react in most of the situations. You very likely don't have the knowledge yet so you have to study more.
And no, there's no skill cap, age skill cap or whatever people may ever call it. The moment you start thinking you can't improve anymore, you're admiting to yourself that you won't improve anymore because you don't want to.
Even if age does diminish mechanical ability, why concern yourself with it? It's more constructive to operate with the mindset of 'what can I do to improve?'. If you feel you're hitting a skill ceiling then post replays in the strategy forum for feedback. Watch your own replays and watch vods featuring pro players: try to see what they're doing that you're not.
Mechanics are important but they're not the be all and end all for getting into masters. SC2 is a strategy game - it's not just about who can tap buttons the fastest.
I'm 27 and have been rank 1 masters for extended periods in the past, can't break into GM. I probably play slightly more than you do on average. I don't think it has anything to do with age, especially in NA. You can do a lot with better multitask and better strategic thinking, it doesn't come down purely to speed, especially at the diamond level where you are definitely making a ton of mistakes.
IMO speed/apm is overrated in sc2. Protoss also requires the least raw speed to accomplish its basic tasks (that's not to say that there aren't some speedy protoss pros). It's more about prioritizing your APM and remembering what you need to do than cranking up your speed altogether.
Unless you have crippling arthritis or something, I don't think that it's appropriate to blame your age for this. I know plenty of guitarists/pianists who can move their fingers faster than master league SC2 players and are well beyond your age. What's more likely is that you just aren't putting in enough time, or aren't using your time as efficiently as you could. Be more mindful or your decisions in game and try to analyze replays for yourself rather than blindly copying pros and you will find that you are winning more and having a better time playing.
Speed is a huge part of the game at the top level. Being able to play slightly faster is the difference between hitting an inject during an attack or not. A single inject gives you a handful of larva.. multiply times number of bases and you can see it's a lot of units... That said ESPORTS is pretty young and ther aren't that many gamers who are your age. I'm 26 and I feel like a dinosaur. In other sports your body becomes weaker. But in this i don't think age should start to kick in as fast. If Bret Favre can play football as long as he did, you should be fine So what im trying to say is that you're not losing because of your speed in Diamond league.
I have a friend who is around your age, plays without hotkeys, plays RANDOM, and is Masters. He is just a smart player who plays pretty safe and has a good understanding of the game. Sure sometimes he loses to super high APM builds, but he still wins a good chunk of the time.. enough to be Masters. He watches a lot of his replays when he can't play because he's holding his baby and learns from his mistakes.
What's your style? Do you deathball? Do you like to play harassy aggressive builds? There are ways to play that require more strategic planning and less APM. If you find yourself unable to play faster, try to play smarter. Better build orders and less micro focused stuff.
Look at Nestea... I guess he's turning/already turned 31 this year, or so. It's just hard to keep up your motivation at this age; at least that's the case for me (28 years old). ^^ But as a diamond random player, I definitely feel like I could play at a higher level if I put in more time/practiced builds more specifically... Definitely not a speed issue.
It's not only time you put on practice, but in knowledge too. I don't know about you, but i am not capable of thinking as much as i did about games, min/maxing than a i did when i was younger, not because i am dumber/slower, but because i have many other things to take care of.
ofc it does, older means more things to care about in life and not just gaming. There are more interests and worries as well so you can't sit there and play for long.
I agree with the statement and im 35 : Yes, age affects APM and therefore effects your MMR and leagueplacement aswell.
Its not because your old, its because the young peeps grow up in rts games, they grow in the game as they grow to adulthood. As we oldies, have to learn and/or relearn stuff. it just harder and takes more time.
i.e. my nephew was 8 years old and aced Mario bros 3 thx to his mechanics, i didnt
It's also true that when you're older you have less time to dedicate to the game. I have a friend who's 17 and gets home at 2:30 from school. Meanwhile I'm in the office until 9PM and when I get home I have shit to do, and need to get to bed early so I can get to work the next morning.
Axslav is a great example of how someone with super low APM and slow hands can out think, out position and out strategize 99.99% of all SC2 players. It may not be what you want to hear, but the same mentality that motivated you to make this thread is the same mentality that is holding you back on ladder. Focus on your mistakes and ask the community for help. They are an amazing resource. Good Luck!
Engagements are the most important part in a game. Have an optimal keybind configuration? Use camera location hotkeys? Use 3 control groups for your army? Never miss an inject? Great map awareness? Awesome! You can do all of these better than your opponent, but if he has a better understanding and execution of engagements, he could potentially beat you every time. (knowledge > physical aspects)
On May 17 2013 09:27 tuho12345 wrote: ofc it does, older means more things to care about in life and not just gaming. There are more interests and worries as well so you can't sit there and play for long.
potentially true, but not necessarily. A lot of the younger people also have to do things like uni/school + homework/assignments and work part time. Just "being older" doesn't magically give you less time to play. There are lots of masters league players that don't play more than the OP.
I'm 33 years old, currently GM as Zerg. I've beaten other GM players with around 130 average APM and lost games vs Plat players with an average APM of 350 back when I was in plat league. I call bullshit on that the only reason you can't get out of diamond is because of your speed, most likely you just don't understand what you are doing.
On May 17 2013 09:26 Godwrath wrote: It's not only time you put on practice, but in knowledge too. I don't know about you, but i am not capable of thinking as much as i did about games, min/maxing than a i did when i was younger, not because i am dumber/slower, but because i have many other things to take care of.
Probably this is the most helpful post i've found in here, cheers, sums up what I mean.
On May 17 2013 09:43 Integra wrote: I'm 33 years old, currently GM as Zerg. I've beaten other GM players with around 130 average APM and lost games vs Plat players with an average APM of 350 back when I was in plat league. I call bullshit on that the only reason you can't get out of diamond is because of your speed, most likely you just don't understand what you are doing.
Cool, good to know players of my 'age' are higher.
How many games per week do you play?
EDIT: Maybe I am not being eloquent enough. I dont think it is primarily because of speed, but speed, linked with the ability to make the decisions?
As you get older, my feeling is in sc2, you do one or the other, but at a slower rate?
Younger players can achieve one or the other quicker, which then translates ing ame to a win? Thanks for the reponse though.
I don't think that age matters in the same way that it does for pros. In fact with amateur players I think that older players can have a bit of an advantage in many regards simply because they might understand the principles better. There are also plenty reasons younger players might do better. I don't feel age has much bearing on your average players ability.
As for the statement that you lose games simply because the opponent executed their build faster, I feel that this is a gross oversimplification and perhaps part of the reason you've hit a bit of a plateau. I think you need to be honest with yourself in terms of why you give up and games and why you aren't making more progress. The reasons that one loses a game can be amazingly complicated or amazingly simple. I think simplifying things is good but not to the point where you neglect a real assessment of your strengths and weaknesses.
Also, are you hitting worker benchmarks? I think pre-Masters that even low level masters players really need to focus on basic things like worker production and hitting certain benchmarks. Just my opinion really but I've found that making enough workers by certain times is the foundation upon which you can execute a build with greater efficiency.
Simple answer, no. You simply don't put in the hard work to get as good, yes some of them may put in less work, but then just be naturally better at this than you.
There are great pianists twice your age, three times as fast (and more controlled) than the majority of young (sub 20) pianists in the world.
It is a matter of effort, not age. You can find plenty 60+ people who show speeds within their skill that exceed the majority of the younger population practicing that skill, be it martial arts or instruments.
You say 25 games a week, while when I played more actively I had nearly three times that (10 games a day), on rare occassions I had 25+ games in a single day, having peaked at 50 games in a day just for fun a few times.
On May 17 2013 09:43 Integra wrote: I'm 33 years old, currently GM as Zerg. I've beaten other GM players with around 130 average APM and lost games vs Plat players with an average APM of 350 back when I was in plat league. I call bullshit on that the only reason you can't get out of diamond is because of your speed, most likely you just don't understand what you are doing.
Cool, good to know players of my 'age' are higher.
How many games per week do you play?
Enough games so I maintain my skill and that's about it. Total maybe 10 hours a week? It happens in spurs though, I might play all those 10 hours during a three day period and then don't touch the game for the rest of the week. Keep in mind this is only for me to keeping up with the current level I am at. You actually have, besides keeping up, also squeeze extra time in to actually become better, which is something you really don't have to deal with if you already reached the highest league and don't really want to compete for money and such.
EDIT: this whole older makes it harder is from my experience just superstition, the primary reason is that people lose interest or wants to spend time doing other things which naturally leads to you becoming worse in the other activities you decided to dump in favour for other things.
On May 17 2013 09:50 Sekijitsu wrote: I don't think that age matters in the same way that it does for pros. In fact with amateur players I think that older players can have a bit of an advantage in many regards simply because they might understand the principles better. There are also plenty reasons younger players might do better. I don't feel age has much bearing on your average players ability.
As for the statement that you lose games simply because the opponent executed their build faster, I feel that this is a gross oversimplification and perhaps part of the reason you've hit a bit of a plateau. I think you need to be honest with yourself in terms of why you give up and games and why you aren't making more progress. The reasons that one loses a game can be amazingly complicated or amazingly simple. I think simplifying things is good but not to the point where you neglect a real assessment of your strengths and weaknesses.
Also, are you hitting worker benchmarks? I think pre-Masters that even low level masters players really need to focus on basic things like worker production and hitting certain benchmarks. Just my opinion really but I've found that making enough workers by certain times is the foundation upon which you can execute a build with greater efficiency.
On May 17 2013 09:51 NTTemplar wrote: Simple answer, no. You simply don't put in the hard work to get as good, yes some of them may put in less work, but then just be naturally better at this than you.
There are great pianists twice your age, three times as fast (and more controlled) than the majority of young (sub 20) pianists in the world.
It is a matter of effort, not age. You can find plenty 60+ people who show speeds within their skill that exceed the majority of the younger population practicing that skill, be it martial arts or instruments.
You say 25 games a week, while when I played more actively I had nearly three times that (10 games a day), on rare occassions I had 25+ games in a single day, having peaked at 50 games in a day just for fun a few times.
Its probably more than that actually, at least recently, and hence sparked this post i guess.
Age doesn't matter at all. It's more about your dedication to the game. If you don't put the time in/have the time to put in then you improve fast at all. That's usually the only problem with older people that want to play. They usually have a family and a job which leaves little to no time to practice/play and get better.
And you have to keep in mind, reaching masters/GM is pretty damn hard, just reaching masters means you are at the top 8%, GM is what? less than 1%? The people who actually reaches high Masters/GM more likely than not has talent for it or worked their ass off to attain it. It's not something the remaining 91-99% of the people actually can achieve, so if you wanna blame something then blame your lack of skill and start training to make up for it.
I feel like you can still improve, even if your speed doesn't. With 60 APM (1 action per second basically..) you can still beat master league players. If it makes you feel better, White-Ra is 32 ^_^. If you just look at your replays and think "what would have been a better decision in this spot?" all throughout the replay, you will learn. Just keep doing that, as boring as it may be, and you'll improve more than you might think. Just don't half-ass it.
Anyway, don't let age get you down. YOU GOTTA BELIEVE, M8.
Please take 2 minutes and 14 seconds to watch this video. Then take at least 20 minutes to contemplate the silliness of thinking that your advanced age (31?! Holy smokes, gramps!) has anything to do with speed. Seriously, If Horowitz could perform as a concert pianist into his 70's, 31 is not too old to play a fucking video game.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Silva, which I thought was a great example as well. There are lots of others too, from MMA, sports, music (the violinist Itzhak Perlman comes to mind), fighter pilots, formula 1 drivers, etc. Maybe you are just a 31 year old who is bad at a video game because at 31, you have different priorities in life.
Maybe at the very very very very very top, someone might argue for it. But in your case it literally has nothing to do with it, unless you are a 90 yr old man with parkinsons or arthritis or something.
Even then its mostly just that if u play at 350 (actual 350 not SC2 350) apm eventually u will develop problems with ur wrists/hands which is what would happen to Progamers in BW
but in 99.99999% of cases age has nothing to do with your skill
(unless u want to go really deep into the rabbithole and argue that with age comes responsibilities comes less times comes less practice etc)
On May 17 2013 10:07 Toons wrote: When did i say i was too old to play? WTF?!?
EDIT: Some good posts mixed with borderline passive aggressive shit from a few ppl, seriously.
Did my post come across as borderline passive aggressive? That wasn't my intent. You asked the question "Am i achieving all i can mechanically due to age vs speed?" and the point of my post is that age has nothing to do with speed. I posted a video that demonstrates this, and listed some examples in other fields.
If you prefer, I could just be straight-up aggressive, or just honest. You lose because you suck, not because you are 31. Stop blaming something that has nothing to do with your performance. But sucking at a video game is not a bad thing. You are 31, the have other priorities, you have less time to devote to your hobby. It's not a big deal. Play the game and have fun. As long as you are playing people that are on your level, the game provides an interesting challenge. Does it really matter if you never make it out of diamond?
No. Skill ceiling wise, just plain no. It's all about motivation and drive imo, which more youthful players have more of, cause they aren't as cynical and tied down as middle aged adults in general are.
I do think though, that teenagers learn faster. I can't give you a detailed physiological explanation for that, I'm simply not qualified. I do however think that since the brain is growing and devoloping in that period that it's logical to assume that it's a good time to take in information and store it.
I grasp the desire to want to play faster. At diamond level, it's not likely your issue. Either way, it's HARD to get faster and play like the pros. If you're anything like me and a ton of other players, it probably just seems like a mysterious wall that pros somehow magically can push past. I'd LOVE to play and jump around the map and operate with the precision that the pros have. In the end, it probably comes down to that they play easily 10x more than most of us. That helps a LOT. Play micro maps and things like that to help you micro better on the fly. To get faster in general, I'd recommend builds that cause you to multitask a lot. I remember back in WoL before the queen buff there was this aggressive expansion opening I'd do vs zerg players, and right as my army would tend to hit happened to line up with the exact same time I needed to be at home macroing and building structures. The first few times I managed to do it correctly made me feel completely amazing. I was playing super fast during that period of the game, and I'd often earn myself a big advantage in the game even if my aggression failed. It might be a good idea to have that type of a pre-planned heavy multi-tasking scenario that you can do over and over again, as opposed to waiting until your opponent stretches your multitasking with harass, which can be very inconsistent and hard to grow from. Do something on your end in every game to make you play faster at some point, and it will train you to be faster in general. I don't believe it's age, it's just... hard to play really quickly.
29 years old here, mid-high masters. I first played multiplayer rts when I was 16.
I am a lot slower now because I do not play as much. Some months I might only actually play 20 games. This is because I do not have as much time where I can just sit and focus on playing. Still, speed is not holding me back. If I were faster then it would help, but the beauty of rts is that it is complex enough that there are many ways that you can improve.
Also, speed in SC2 is not really about how fast you can move your hands. I think it is more about how much you can do subconsciously. If you play 20 games per day then you get into habits to do things without thinking about them and your apm doubles.
That video of the concert pianist is silly. He has probably been playing piano, developing that muscle memory for at least 50 years. I'd like to see him try to teach someone his age, who has never played piano before, to do that. Also, part of the effects of aging is slower reflexes and quick thinking in reaction to what happens in game. Neither of those are exhibited in a practiced piano piece, but are tested in every game of Starcraft. It's not just about the physical ability to move the fingers, which in itself also slows down, but the others I mentioned, all of which deteriorate with age.
On May 17 2013 11:08 Kaitlin wrote: That video of the concert pianist is silly. He has probably been playing piano, developing that muscle memory for at least 50 years. I'd like to see him try to teach someone his age, who has never played piano before, to do that. Also, part of the effects of aging is slower reflexes and quick thinking in reaction to what happens in game. Neither of those are exhibited in a practiced piano piece, but are tested in every game of Starcraft. It's not just about the physical ability to move the fingers, which in itself also slows down, but the others I mentioned, all of which deteriorate with age.
Ok, then how about the other examples? You know, things like sports, MMA, racing, being a pilot? The OP is 31. He does not lose because of age, or for that matter, speed either. He loses because he is bad.
This just popped in my mind too, remember when DRG stomped someone in masters while playing using chopsticks? That is far more of a handicap to hand speed than being 31. It still didn't matter. Speed actually isn't that important in SC2 beneath the professional level, and it certainly is not what is holding someone back when they play on ladder as a hobby.
i am 34 years old .a high diamond with a 66% winrate right now. with only 2 mornings under my belt. in hots. i play osme master league players already. i dont think age is a big factor really. unless your code S? then maybe.
On May 17 2013 11:08 Kaitlin wrote: That video of the concert pianist is silly. He has probably been playing piano, developing that muscle memory for at least 50 years. I'd like to see him try to teach someone his age, who has never played piano before, to do that. Also, part of the effects of aging is slower reflexes and quick thinking in reaction to what happens in game. Neither of those are exhibited in a practiced piano piece, but are tested in every game of Starcraft. It's not just about the physical ability to move the fingers, which in itself also slows down, but the others I mentioned, all of which deteriorate with age.
Ok, then how about the other examples? You know, things like sports, MMA, racing, being a pilot? The OP is 31. He does not lose because of age, or for that matter, speed either. He loses because he is bad.
This just popped in my mind too, remember when DRG stomped someone in masters while playing using chopsticks? That is far more of a handicap to hand speed than being 31. It still didn't matter. Speed actually isn't that important in SC2 beneath the professional level, and it certainly is not what is holding someone back when they play on ladder as a hobby.
I'm not saying the effects that come with age are the only factor, or even a major factor determining one's ability in Starcraft, just that there is an effect. I'd even say that with commitment, someone into their 40's can reach Master League, but it would be more difficult for them than if they were in their teens. This is even ignoring the whole part about the younger generation today basically grew up with these types of games, whereas someone in their 40's grew up before the internet and probably played video games with 4 buttons and a joystick.
I'm not saying the effects that come with age are the only factor, or even a major factor determining one's ability in Starcraft, just that there is an effect. I'd even say that with commitment, someone into their 40's can reach Master League, but it would be more difficult for them than if they were in their teens. This is even ignoring the whole part about the younger generation today basically grew up with these types of games, whereas someone in their 40's grew up before the internet and probably played video games with 4 buttons and a joystick.
hmm as someone well in their 40's most of my first PC games were keyboard control Wolfenstien etc. Then quake came in and the mouse was an option (i was the last in our quake clan to move over to mouse LOL) - first RTS i played was Dune 2 but in those days it was just single player. yes age does effect speed but the argument here seems to have moved on to how important speed really is.
the fact that younger people have grown up with the keyboard as their writing tool is more of a factor then older guys using joysticks. the average 18 year old knows there way around a keyboard much better than the average 40+ person - that's an advantage.
I don't feel age isn't that big of a deal at the diamond level. There are some pretty old pros. White-Ra is 32 and although he hasn't had any big results lately he was still pretty high up in the beta and he's grandmaster so age doesn't necessarily bar you from going higher than diamond.
I'm an old fogie and my biggest impediment is simply finding time to play the game. A busy schedule (work, family, etc) has me playing sc2 maybe 1-2 games a day.
This gets brought up on occasion and really it doesn't matter. As stated, the main difference between a 16 year old playing full time sc2 and a 30 year old full time sc2 player is the fact that the 30 year old LIKELY has a lot more in life to worry about, and less time to spend playing. Time spent practicing isn't everything though, as some people learn the game much faster than others, but its still a big factor.
For awhile it seemed like the popular opinion was that peak sc2 players were in their teens and after that you decline by early 20s. Maybe for brood war but for sc2 I just don't see that. e-sports in general is still so young and the reason you see so few pro gamers past mid 20s is because most of them have found other paths in life. Pro gaming has only been around a decade or so, and even then outside korea its nearly non-existant until sc2 came along, I think. It doesn't make sense either because a person at age 30 is generally in their prime for just about every other sport/profession so I don't see why your skill at clicking buttons and moving a mouse around is determined primarily by age. It has a lot to do with smarts, decision making, game sense, etc.
No way that speed is your main problem. (Maybe only in games where your opponent stretches you apart by very intensive multitasking) If you know when and where to take engagements, scout and know how to read what you see, you should be able to easily reach high-masters even with very low apm (unless of course you're pushing something insanely low say below 80 real-time apm). If you really play only a single build in each match-up, you should be able to crush most people (unless of course facing off against a counter build). Chances are: - your builds are inferior - you execute your builds in a suboptimal fashion - you don't respond properly to what your opponent does (or you don't scout properly) - you take engagements at the wrong time (or the wrong place)
On May 17 2013 09:37 Zenbrez wrote: Engagements are the most important part in a game. Have an optimal keybind configuration? Use camera location hotkeys? Use 3 control groups for your army? Never miss an inject? Great map awareness? Awesome! You can do all of these better than your opponent, but if he has a better understanding and execution of engagements, he could potentially beat you every time. (knowledge > physical aspects)
Engagements are almost entirely mechanical, lol. All the components of the actual engagement are mechanical - I suppose the only knowledge elements would be composition and deciding whether to engage/how to engage.
The other 90% of an engagement is purely physical.
Does there need to be a problem here? You being "stalled" at the same rank means the "average" ladder caught up and is improving at the same speed as you are.
I'd be pretty content with being consistent and remaining top 8 diamond if I played only 10 games a week. As long as you're enjoying the game the ladder rank is rather meaningless, you just want to be high enough to avoid facing non-stop all-ins and cheese builds.
As for age? RSS (repetitive stress syndrome) aside, I think someone can keep on playing at a high level for quite some time but you have to help yourself out. I've seen examples of athletes thrown around... These athletes may thank their genetics for it, but its mostly due to a very strict regimen and discipline. A lesson that can translate to almost anything in life.
I am one of the people who think starcraft 2 is better then broodwar, why? Because I feel with starcraft 2 age is way less of a factor. If you have a good hotkey/camera setup you do not need such a high APM. It also depends a little on your playstyle I suppose.
Maybe if you were like 60... it can't be to the point where at 31 you have suddenly lost so much speed of mind / hand that it is noticeable. If you did lose some speed it wouldn't be more than 1-5% of when you were 21. 31 isn't old, I would say just keep trying to get better, practice more, study more etc and u'll see results.
At my age (27), the biggest obstacle is time and dedication. I have far too many other, more important things to do than play. If I got to play more than an hour a day (up to 4 hours or more for a regular teenager or college student) I'd have more than 60apm and masters.
My personal opinion is that age does decrease your handspeed but not to the extent where you are at a significant disadvantage to your opponent. (not unless you are competing with the best of the best).
Bearing in mind that players like whitera, nestea and dimaga are pretty "old" and still regulars in masters and GM, i think you should not have a problem getting to masters.
On May 17 2013 09:09 Toons wrote: I have 1 build per matchup, practice those exclusively
i think this is what is the real issue for you. the difference between a real good player and an average masters player is how they scout and react to adjust their build to exploit the opponent. terran players are real good at this for example the 6:30 scan timing.
hand speed is not crippling to an older gamer until they are competing at a GM level where idle seconds on a medivac can mean the difference in a game.
Okay there is no supporting evidence that someone would be performing slower at the age of 31. There is, however, proof that if you keep practicing on a daily basis, older people can maintain their speed, senses and memory throughout aging, all the way up to 55+.
Once you hit 55 you will slowly start to notice the aging process, but at 31?! No way josé.
What I think:
- 25 games a week is slow - Your game knowledge is severely lacking - You compensate your lack of game knowledge with mechanics - Your mechanics are rusty because of the small game pool / week -> BAM back to diamond because you can't compensate enough.
Because if you would have had proper (enough) knowledge, you would;'ve hit masters with minimal required APM.
Like anything, speed is almost certainly going to be a normal distribution (or a bell curve).
Some people over 30 will be faster than most 18 year olds. 18-year-olds might be faster on average, but it's not a comment on all people in these age groups. It's only a statistical average.
Then there's the fact that practice counts for a great deal. Top players say that the best way to get high APM is just practice, practice, practice. No doubt though you have to be conscious of speed, and make sure you have a good mouse and mouse mat. I was using the back of an envelope for a mouse mat with a cheap mouse that I had since 2004. My APM was capped at like 50, and I was worried age might be making me slow (I'm late 20s). But now, after I got a proper gaming mouse + mouse mat, I'm 200 APM when playing well.
While the mantra here seems to be that age does not matter I would like to disagree. There is an optimal age for every sport. For sprinting (100m dash) it is around 26 for endurance sports it is above 30. For light weight classes in fighting sports it is also around 26. For higher weight classes it is above. Klitschko with 37 is understood to be slightly past his prime now. Pacquiao at 33 is supposed to be 3-4 or so years past his prime. Of course there are exceptions.
I remember hearing/reading some of the above points but don't claim they are scientific. Still it should not be too hard to accept.
My gut feeling is, that the optimal sc2 age is around 16-24. That's the period of time when the brain is at peak performance. So I think a 16-24 year old will improve a lot faster than a 30+ year old. That said reaching masters should be achievable for most people who really like to play. However not necessarily at the rate of 25 games per week or 4 games per day which the opening poster claims to have.
From a purely physical point of view, Starcraft2 requires an insane psychological dedication toward a video game, as well as finger/arms speed and reaction time. These 3 "qualities" tend to deteriorate past 16 years old. Usually other physical qualities start emerging at that time, such as stronger muscles and more technique, but these qualities are useless in the world of Starcraft where all you need is speed and experience.
In other words, small and tiny asian teenagers (20-) with a culture of hard work are definitely at an advantage.
On May 17 2013 15:51 kaluro wrote: Because if you would have had proper (enough) knowledge, you would;'ve hit masters with minimal required APM.
No need to be black-and-white about it. It's condescending and not even accurate anyway. In fact, it's dumb.
The dichotomy between APM and "game knowledge" is just about as stupid as saying the only two qualities required for being a good football player are speed and understanding of how to kick a ball.
Your APM has to be distributed well and you have to know how to apply your game knowledge in timed situations and under pressure. It's one thing to understand something, but it's another for it to be second nature.
You not hitting Masters is not because you are too old for it. However, I believe that there is an optimal age for every sport. While youngsters excel in having really good periods.
On May 17 2013 09:09 Toons wrote: Not sure if this belongs here, but here goes.
History/Information Rank 1 Diamond NA (not much, but have played to high plat on KR) Made Masters twice on EU, but got demoted back to diamond after being beat too much. Played RTS from Warcraft 2 onward (i'm 31 this year) Follow SC2 fairly regularly (streams, replays, etc) Play somewhere over 25 games a week (sometimes more, some less, 57% ratio)
Problem I feel like i'm bumping into a skill ceiling every 5-10 games (the way MMR works, thats probably about right)
What i mean here is that, every 5-10 games, I run into mid masters players (or sometimes equal level diamonds, e.g., rank 1), that stomp me into the ground, by the sheer fact that they are faster.
I feel we both understand the game just fine, I know what i need to do, but they just do it quicker (I have 1 build per matchup, practice those exclusively)
This results in a few losses, bumping me back down to playing Diamonds below me and the cycle repeats (and also means a lack of promotion)
Note: When i return home, i'll post my MMR-Stats of the last 100ish games, to illustrate what i mean.
My Questions
Am i achieving all i can mechanically due to age vs speed? Hope that doesnt sound stupid, but it feels like a legitimate question. It seems widely accepted in a pro capacity that once you get to an 'age' you just can't compete.
Anyone similar age experienced this before and did you overcome it?
Simply accept you'll be Forever Diamond?
I really dont intend this to be a whine post, i literally dont know how much more I can do in game ... Do I just bounce around this level, and just have to get ok with that?
Thanks for reading.
Im 100% sure that you dont understand the game perfectly, Im sure there are tons of things you can work on you just need the right mindset, Goody is a progamer with insanely low apm. another one is sOs (gsl ro8 protoss).
of course your reflexes become slower when you're aging, but the pure mechanics shouldn't be that much of a problem when you're getting older. you won't be able to play perfectly, but it's easily possible to have solid mechanics at higher ages. just keep in mind that it takes more practice to maintain a certain skill level. of course you won't reach the highest level anymore, but low master should be doable with some deliberate practice and enough knowledge.
it all comes down on how much effort you put into improving and how important it is for you. the older you are, the more things outside of gaming matter (job, family, household, etc.), so it's basically a question of time and dedication.
Do you feel like 25 games a week is enough to progress faster than the people around you? When you have kids with no commitments around you playing 100+ games a week, there's no wonder you don't climb the ladder like you want to
older people can use their life experiences to their advantage and really put that pain and hard work they've already endured into beautiful strategies.
Afaik reaction time and the ability to automatize already declines in the mid-early twenties on average.
I'm in my early 30's. One of the reasons I quit competetive FPS 5 years ago was the new kids catching up and leaving me behind so fast it got really frustrating. I didn't want to put in the effort any more. Same with SC2. My biggest problem is multitasking.
I was still playing with 90 apm when i hit masters, now i play with 150, and it has taken a lot of hard work to make this happen. I'm still pushing, i'd say i go up by an average of a few apm every couple of weeks.
So in other words. It takes time to get faster for some people, and NO, it is not what is holding you back. Just keep practicing, you will get there.
I think the most important factor with respect to why older people over 25 tend to be worse is that they don't care as much as the youngsters. We have bigger fish to fry and can't really justify pouring all our energy into a dumb game.
Age matter certainly in these kinds of games. From what I remember the brain starts to deteriorate in the early twenties, so when you hit your thirties you are well past your prime.
However, in some games age won't matter as much. Civilization for example that is pure strategy and turn-based which mean one can take as much time as needed to carry out commands.
From personal experience i can say that learning (physics, oral + written exams so you have to know what you are talking about) was easier with 22 than with 27 by far. Idk what changed but when being younger i could learn like 13h per day no problem.
No one over 23 has won a starleague yet iirc, and now that the scene is very much more competitive in sc2 with the kespa players I don't think it will ever happen in the GSL either. So yes, age matters.
On May 17 2013 17:39 Elroi wrote: No one over 23 has won a starleague yet iirc, and now that the scene is very much more competitive in sc2 with the kespa players I don't think it will ever happen in the GSL either. So yes, age matters.
That does not necessarily have anything to do with "old" people being slower. It could also very well be because people tend to retire when they hit a certain age and/or have to attend mandatory military.
I also think that APM is highly overrated. There may be scenarios where a high APM in a short time span can make a difference (Marine splitting), but overall i don't think that APM makes much of a difference if you can keep a steady 100 apm. I know that my APM has not changed much since i was high gold, and i am currently high diamond.
On May 17 2013 17:39 Elroi wrote: No one over 23 has won a starleague yet iirc, and now that the scene is very much more competitive in sc2 with the kespa players I don't think it will ever happen in the GSL either. So yes, age matters.
That does not necessarily have anything to do with "old" people being slower. It could also very well be because people tend to retire when they hit a certain age and/or have to attend mandatory military.
I also think that APM is highly overrated. There may be scenarios where a high APM in a short time span can make a difference (Marine splitting), but overall i don't think that APM makes much of a difference if you can keep a steady 100 apm. I know that my APM has not changed much since i was high gold, and i am currently high diamond.
APM makes a large difference past mid master. I wish it were not so, as i am a slow player, but it is.
Even Grubby, the most politically correct, and a (relatively) slower player himself described elfi as someone who "wins too much for someone who plays so slow" when talking to Cloud at one of the HSCs.
Am i achieving all i can mechanically due to age vs speed? Hope that doesnt sound stupid, but it feels like a legitimate question. It seems widely accepted in a pro capacity that once you get to an 'age' you just can't compete.
I think the age does matters in games which require a lot of reflexes, such like Quakelive. When you're like 30 you'll be less good at quakelive than when you was 20 (story of a friend who stopped QL because of that).
In a RTS game, I don't think at all you'll be handicapped by your age. The APM comes with the experience, and decrease when you play less. Not because of the age. The age will count if you are 60 of course, but you are totally able to have perfect mechanics at 31... Especially at SC2. It requires far less mechanics than BW. In a professional level, SC2 is only about good strats and gamesens. NO professional at SC2 are handicapped by their lack of mechanics (expected Adelscott).
Anyone similar age experienced this before and did you overcome it?
So no, never felt I was less good because I'm getting older at SC.
Simply accept you'll be Forever Diamond?
No. What you play does not require uber reflexes. Some young players had to stay during many season in gold / plat before reaching master. Just play regularly, and learn more build which are adapted to the map and the position (you told yourself that you only have a build per match up). SC2 is really more about brain and gamble than you think. Focus at your macro and the good choice of units, and try to learn from your defeat.
I don't know how many games you have played since the begining. I think some people are more talentuous than other at RTS, (like at everything), so maybe (I don't know just saying) you have less ease than other player. (For exemple, I've never had a good game sens. I've good mechanics but I play like a robot and never take the best decision, it's the contrary for some players). But your age has nothing to do with it.
There's a lot of misinformation being posted in this thread.
When you get older, your brain does not "deteriorate". You do not get slower. What happens instead is your brain shapes its pathways to accomodate the way you're used to thinking, and prunes the unnecessary stuff. That's why it's much easier to get into gaming when you're young, because your neural pathways are not fully formed. You learn new skills better when you're young, that's just common sense.
If you are already older and just getting into gaming, then yes, you will have a harder time (though it's not the reason you can't break into GM). However, if you've been gaming your whole life, evidence would suggest you actually get faster as you age. There is no magical skill cap for older players.
On May 17 2013 17:12 Morlock wrote: I think the most important factor with respect to why older people over 25 tend to be worse is that they don't care as much as the youngsters. We have bigger fish to fry and can't really justify pouring all our energy into a dumb game.
A million times this. At some point other priorities in life crop up and that's that.
If it really matters to you keep on practising and you'll eventually get there. Have someone knowledgeable watch you play or your replays, stuff like that. But don't worry too much as long as you're still having fun playing the game.
Does age matter? Maru and WhiteRA say no. There used to be a guy on my forums who would kick all our asses, I think hes high masters, hes also 68 years old.
Of course age matters, It always does. People change as the grow but age is only one tiny factor out of so very many.
I'll refer you to my sig:
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
There is much we cannot know about this subject, but one thing I can tell you for sure. You are not stuck in Diamond solely because of age. There are simply too many factors involved in determining how good you are at SC2 for one of these to be the only limitation for you.
I think your mindset hold your back more then your actual age.
There are a tons of factors that weigh in and I've had similar experiences where the enemy player is more "present" in the game, when i lose a bit focus after getting tired or playing too many tvz, suddenly I start missing things like drops and runbys on the minimap, its a downward spiral that force me to spend more time fixing things in macro then usual while trying to keep up with mapcontrol and bam I've just a-moved 2seconds unsieged into his army, I usually stop playing for the day when that happens because I feel bad playing when Im not 100% focused, I've seen this happen the other way around though its just how sc2 is sometimes =)
I'm a bit split on this. It's clearly harder to improve when you get older so you have to put in more time. On the other hand it's not really hard to keep your level if you have played before or as the OP (and me) since WC2. I see this alot in sports, old "youthstars" that quit when they were 19-23 and come back when their kids start, they'll get back to roughly their previous level pretty soon from having trained hard in the past. Also some ex XC skiiers and swimmers have made some impressive results with wery little training but they just had to "top up" the existing pool that they had. We also se quite few tweens and early teens making strong results so it's not only few old people in the top. I'd say that the best age seems to be 18-22 or around there. I doubt that a 30+ can get GM if he just picked up the game today and never tuched an RTS ever. When it comes to 30 people who have played quite a few RTS games before it's just about plowing down the time. We're not going to have the improvementcurve of kolll but 14h/day for a year should do it even it you lack a bit in talent.
You may be at a disadvantage but lack of speed certainly isn't holding you back from masters. I don't think having 300+ apm is that important unless you are a korean gm. If you think you understand the game just fine then you are fooling yourself, mechanics in sc2 are relatively easy, especially for zerg or protoss. If you actually know what to do then you will be high master easily.
I think the issue is mainly less time available. A highschool/college student has tons of free time to think about/play the game and not nearly as many external responsibilities as a working adult with a family. I don't think your reflexes/coordination degrade that much by 31, a lot of players are just slow due to lack of practice, has nothing to do with age.
You don't have to be very fast to reach top GM in sc2, 30 is not old, in MMA 30 is the peak of peoples carrers. I can't imagine that you would be so slow that you cannot compete at pro level at age 30. There are other reasons to why there are not many 30 y/o competetive sc2 players.
I can imagine that somewhere around 70 y/o you will lose so much reaction time/finger speed that it might acually matter at a GM level.
I think only reason why "older" progamers dont to so well is because they have too much stuff going on in their lives. Some have wife, start to live on their own and they just dont think starcraft all day every day like the younger ones can (and do).
On May 17 2013 19:54 Fus wrote: You don't have to be very fast to reach top GM in sc2, 30 is not old, in MMA 30 is the peak of peoples carrers. I can't imagine that you would be so slow that you cannot compete at pro level at age 30. There are other reasons to why there are not many 30 y/o competetive sc2 players.
I can imagine that somewhere around 70 y/o you will lose so much reaction time/finger speed that it might acually matter at a GM level.
I'm trying to work out if you're trolling at this point
This game is beautyful because of so many aspects, and this is just one of them. You dont have to be the fastest player in order to succeed, nor do you have to be the smartest person to have incredible mechanical skill. Usually the best players are pretty good at both of these things, but being the best player or being a really good player is a huge difference!
i think no.. like spanisiwha said once on his stream : " i can beat diamond players with 60 APM or less" his answer to the question about " how much apm do you think require for diamond and up"
so yeah.. i have about 195-250 apm(zerg), and a friend of mine that i practice with that plays protoss he has around 100-120 apm. and he still wins alot ,so i think that it wont matter what age you are, only restrictions i can think about would be if you got some bone/wrist pains due to age
TL;DR Whitra's like 40 yo and win over ppl less than half his age :D
Age is irrelevant, if someone was able to stay motivated they could be getting deep in the GSL.
The problem is when you've spent 10 years of your life training to play sc2 you start to get tired of it, especially when you are required to train 12 hours a day to be able to challenge for first place (in korea). If you've already won a Starleague, or have never won anything significant many pros struggle to motivate themselves to keep training at the level they used to
Mechanics don't just drop off after you turn 30, think of the number of classical musicians who are over 30 who can play their instruments at lightning speed. As long as you look after your wrists and can find motavation to train you can keep going for many years
On May 17 2013 19:54 Fus wrote: I can imagine that somewhere around 70 y/o you will lose so much reaction time/finger speed that it might acually matter at a GM level.
This is played by a 81 year old woman, and the piece she's playing requires more dexterity, eye-to-hand coordination and precision than what many, many progamers play with. The same goes for all the (older) pianists that can improvise pieces with insane precision and speed.
As long as you are healthy, the mechanical aspect of Starcraft 2 can be at the top level, I have no doubt in my mind about that.
I think age is only really relevant when it comes to physical sports like Tennis, Football, MMA etc, because it is a well known and documented fact that, our physical body does deteriorate slowly and steadily, and intense physical activity and strain will, over time accelerate that process, speed and strength declines and can't keep up with much younger bodies. However, the way our brain works, how it grows, absorbs information, and how it decays is still largely unknown.
Speed in SC2 is directly related to two things, how fast your brain can process information and how fast you can issue commands with the information received.
Its obvious dexterity in the fingers doesn't deteriorate if they are well maintained, otherwise we wouldn't have cases with 80 year old musicians being able to outplay much younger musicians. I guess you could lose that dexterity if you stop exercising your fingers, just like with any other muscle, but if you maintain them well you probably shouldn't see any decay.
That only leaves the information processing unit to analyze, the brain, while we don't know for sure how the brain operates, it is clear that it decays far, far slower then the rest of the body. It may be the case where, if you keep training your brain, at least in the areas critical to playing professional video games, then it won't decay in that sense either. Mechanical skill should technically not be lost once its gained, because the neural framework is there, it just needs some dusting from time to time.
What should be affected though is your ability to gain new mechanics or improve mechanics, since learning new things after a certain ages is reported to be more difficult, however it is not impossible, the more you use a certain area of the brain, the more neural pasterns will form around that area. It might be you could, at some point reach a critical phase where the time and effort needed to improve is disproportionately large to the improvements you'll see, and in that case it probably would be better to stop. But exactly where that threshold lies and at what age, is not very well documented.
At the end of the day, I think the answer could probably be a bit in between yes and no. Purely physically it shouldn't matter how old you are to perform well in a video game, I'm quite sure we will have another SC2 Starleague and GSL champion at 30+ years of age at some point, because dexterity doesn't decay and processing power shouldn't either. However once you grow older your priorities and your outlook on life change, you may not have the same time or motivation to maintain your level at the very top, even though physically you could probably do it. This is why I think we haven't had a Starleague champion past age 23 as someone has reported, I think after going trough mandatory military service a lot of the former pro gamers lost the motivation and drive to go on and reach their former peaks.
What it means for you, as a non professional gamer, is that, you need to have a set of priorities, a goal in mind and good mindset. For example if your goal is to get to get into X league (can be Diamond, Master, GM etc), you first need to analyze what it is that you need to improve to get there. For example to get into Masters, the only think you need to focus on, purely is mechanics, not getting supply blocked, building the right things at the right time, hitting injects, chronoing, muleing, upgrading etc.
And mechanics only really improve by playing a lot of games. Now once you have good mechanics, then its much, much more important to focus on strategy, because once at high master/GM an opponent's mechanics are so good that he can actually hit a 30 second timing window with certain builds/unit comps and kill you straight up. Until this level of play, focusing on strategy is meaningless, because you won't be able to hit that 30 second timing window to kill someone, if you get supply blocked for 10 seconds here, forget to put down a critical structure for 10 seconds, and then forget a critical upgrade for another 10 seconds, because over the course of the game those little mistakes here and there have added up to a good 30 seconds.
In short, knowledge is meaningless at certain levels, because you don't have the skill to make use of it.
Again, analyze your goals and make decisions and strategies tailored to your level of needs. Perhaps you have reached a point where, playing 25 games per week really isn't sufficient any more for you to develop your mechanics to the level of masters, or at least it isn't fast enough. In that case you need to maybe up it to 30 or 35 or 40 games per week (as time allows).
Another factor, and this comes into play more at higher levels, at some point the amount of practice you put in stops becoming the only thing that matters, and, to get really good results you have to focus on quality of practice. That doesn't mean going from playing 40 games per week back to play only 25 games per week where you focus on quality, what it means is that during those 40 games you play per week, you focus on each and every one of them like its the most important game of your life, you push and you claw and you struggle and you get out of your comfort zone just to get to the next level, once that is done, you do it again the next game.
My advice to you personally, don't worry too much about speed, not only does it not diminish as fast as you may think, but bellow pro gamer level, it doesn't even matter. EPM (not APM), actually matters the most at pro gamer level, because at that stage, with all things being equal, macro, micro, multi-tasking, awareness etc, EPM can be the defining factor that wins games because one player is simply able to execute more actions, and even if its just one more effective action per minute, over the course of a 15 to 30 minute game, those actions just add up.
So, just don't worry about it, focus instead on what you can do to improve, focus on your macro, your micro, your map awareness, your multi-tasking etc.
14-15 seems to be when prodigies pop up in Starcraft in general. You have til about 24-25 before you hit your peak. Perhaps it's a neuromuscular thing, but I know that you're at your brain prime ~25 years old before every year results in less neurons.
I'm also 31, and my apm has developed very slowly. I rarely break 150. I've noticed that players who developed high apm earlier in life seem like they are able to maintain it into older age, but at least for me it's very had to develop at my age.
I was once forever diamond, but when I stopped thinking about "ranking" up, that's when I managed to improve my play.
Don't think of leagues as stiff divisions, instead, think of them as indicators when you reach a certain level. When you reach Master you play approximately at the level of a rank 50 master, so you'd already have to surpass very many master's players to actually break into the league.
It's not the league that defines you, once you get into that mindset, you'll most likely be more exposed to tilting and becoming angry and stuff like that, stuff that will prevent your improvement. Your skill is what defines you, and your skill will put you into a league, when your skill improves, your ranking will follow, so improving your ranking as a goal is much weaker than improving your skill. By your skill I mean your general competency in the game, so everything, mechanics, fundamentals, understanding, defending against cheese, macro, micro, etc. So Improving all these aspects of your game is much more important than 'winning'. In fact, probably all master's players will say that you learn considerably more from losing a match than from winning.
TL:DR losses are a source of skill, wins are a source of false confidence. If you're improving, you're not playing to become the best player in your skill-bracket (which winning will prove), you're playing to move onto the next skill-bracket, which is an achievement that must be preceeded by improving your general skill.
If anything your knowledge will grow as you age and wise up. I guess you could make the argument that youngsters will have more energy and therefore be able to play more games at high speeds, but people seem to forget that at the end of the day sc2 is a strategy game, and 'starsense' can always overcome raw speed.
I think to some degree, super high apm is overrated in sc2. I've seen plenty of replays where 100 apm players have the same smooth macro as a 340 apm player. They're just being more efficient is all.
i'm 27 now, and I am faster currently then I was when I played scbw competitively back in 2005-2009. I am getting faster with every passing day, so no I don't think age matters.
I think age does matter, but not as much for the physical end of things, but just for the maturing/real life things. There would be exceptions to this with eye strain I think, I'm 28 now, but I definitely feel like my eyes hinder me to prolong gaming sessions more than they used to. I wouldn't attribute this to holding back sc2 skill though.
I think its just as you get older there are a lot more things going on in your life, and you realize the importance of those things as well as being the best at a game. You have a job, wife/kids, you have responsibilities, you have to cook, etc etc. Even if you dedicated a few hours to play starcraft only, other things are creeping into your mind. You might have to stop in between games and throw your clothes in the dryer..You might have to grab the mail or answer a work email. As a college student or before that, not working not having any responsibility, you really are just thinking about the game and the competition and being great. And that is the difference. I think you see this at the pro level, and why when some of these guys get great contract deals or win GSLs and stuff, their results slack off a lot. Other responsibilties creep in, they get their own place, they have to manage their finances, etc. As an example, I don't think Nestea can't compete or be a top Code S player anymore.. I just think he now has a lot of other shit going on, and knows hes very well respected and still can put up good successful progamer results while enjoying the luxuries his successful career and life has afforded him. Just look at who is the best at starcraft and what they do to be the best, and then look at what they have afterwards. Its not that complicated to understand.
Wanted to comment a bit on the musician comparisons (I don't really think it applies well to the sc2 discussion here): Musicians don't have the luxury of those breaks in between games or practice, or the beginning of the game lull where your concentration isn't completely required. When you play you are devoting 100% to the music 100% of the time, or its just not going to be very good. You also have to have complete technical mastery of your instrument before you even can be considered to be at a high level. 70 year old Horowitz technique was mastered in his 20s. Thats not to say you don't learn things along the way, but mostly everything is in place by the end of your training/shortly after that. Playing technically perfect is just a requirement to express the phrasing, expression, and colors of the piece. You also have the luxury of incorporating your other emotions into your performance, where that would hinder or get in the way of performing optimally in a video game. So you don't see age be a factor for either the physical reasons ( unless theres an actual medical condition) or for the growing up/maturing reasons for a professional musician.
Progaming is mostly about mindset - maturity and patience helps a lot, but some 15-16 year old kids have so much energy and confidence to make up for that, so it can be hard to keep up.
Im 29 Im a used car salesman so i work ALOT!.. but ive been playing sc since X'ds~Grr.. days when he was raping ... I feel alittle old but for some reason I just cant leave it alone..
On May 17 2013 11:08 Kaitlin wrote: That video of the concert pianist is silly. He has probably been playing piano, developing that muscle memory for at least 50 years. I'd like to see him try to teach someone his age, who has never played piano before, to do that. Also, part of the effects of aging is slower reflexes and quick thinking in reaction to what happens in game. Neither of those are exhibited in a practiced piano piece, but are tested in every game of Starcraft. It's not just about the physical ability to move the fingers, which in itself also slows down, but the others I mentioned, all of which deteriorate with age.
Its the exact opposite... You say the video is silly because someone in their 70's can play that fast due to PRACTICING, so through hard work he can perform better than the majority of pianists.
Reflexes is a valid point, however not relevant due to how miniscule it is, quick thinking can be countered by knowledge, if you alleready know the answer to a situation you aren't required to figure it out, basicly what the pianist in that video does, he alleready knows the piece he plays so he isn't required to think about every keystroke (though he could play it by paper marvelously as well).
A pianist suffers from the same things a Starcraft pro does apart from reflexes, however the importance of defending a drop within 1 sec or 1.2 sec isn't big enough to matter. In an FPS game it is relevant though, however still not an unbreakable wall.
As for quick thinking in starcraft, the older players might be at an advantage even, as the older we get the better our tought patterns get, a younger person can calculate things faster, but his brain often spends time on a lot of unecessary things that an older person understands he can ignore, however this is getting a bit technical now so I will end it at this "bonus" point.
Speed doesn't matter, for example players like GoOdy or Axslav have 80-100 APM and they're enough to be competitive, as long as you have enough APM to do all the actions you want to do then its fine. Maybe you're just failing in other aspects of the game like thinking fast enough/ responding that can be also related to the age.
On May 17 2013 19:57 Veriol wrote: I think only reason why "older" progamers dont to so well is because they have too much stuff going on in their lives. Some have wife, start to live on their own and they just dont think starcraft all day every day like the younger ones can (and do).
I agree with this, and this is what older progamers say when they are interviewd. As you get older, you cant think about starcraft 24/7
I'm sure that you get slower as you get older, although I honestly have no idea the "rate" at which it would happen, but there are also individual skill caps.
I'm never going to be able to get to grandmaster, so that is my bar no matter what. So I'm guessing that as I get older I will slowly start dropping from where I am (as I play less and less, and as I start to get slower).
So if I started playing a new rts when I'm 30, my individual skill cap would already be set, and I probably wouldn't be as good as I am now (I'm 20).
Edit: I also agree with the idea that older gamers may have other things going on in their lives. All I've got right now is school, a part time job, and friends. That leaves a lot of time for gaming.
I think age kinda affects you. I think kids are able to accept new ideas of how to play a lot quicker than older people.. I think pysically they are faster than adults. But I do think adults can compete with them just fine.
On May 17 2013 17:12 Morlock wrote: I think the most important factor with respect to why older people over 25 tend to be worse is that they don't care as much as the youngsters. We have bigger fish to fry and can't really justify pouring all our energy into a dumb game.
I agree. When I was younger (around 15-16) I used to play a lot of video games. Sessions of four or five hours at an end were very common. I'm 25 now, and I barely play two or three hours a week. Other priorities and interests. I play video games nowadays if I really can't find anything more useful to do. I still actively follow the SC2 esports scene though.
I don't think your speed/APM decreases from a PHYSICAL standpoint until you are like 60 years old. To think that you will hit your "max level" in terms of speed at 30 years old is only your mindset holding you back. I strongly believe that high speed/APM is only the result of rigorous practice and knowing what to do at every moment. Even a 60 year old person can get 300 APM if he just spams 3 keys non-stop, but there is no meaning in that. In my opinion, low APM is just the consequence of not knowing what to do. Pro gamers are pros because they are aware of all the little things they need to do, all the time.
I'm 24, with pretty low apm. (80-120 usually). And I'm playing in high masters/GM so I think that without a doubt you can get further. While there are obviously ceilings that make it much harder to advance beyond a certain point. I feel like it's way up there because of how easy SC2 is. There are a lot of high rated players with low apm.
My suggestions to you from another guy who's 30 and has far less time to play then some random 14 to 18 year old kid.
Don't play the game straight up and standard and put yourself in situations where your age can be more of a negative then a positive. So what do I mean by this?
Micro Wise: There is the possibility you can't micro as well as someone younger, so don't need to. Pick engagements that put you in a superior position where even if you can't micro as well as a younger version of yourself you don't need to.
Macro Wise: This is one area you just have to make sure your on top of, if your opponents all out macro you there just isn't anything you can do. So if there is one area of mechanics you should focus on keeping tip top this is it. I'd worry less about practicing any other mechanic over having good macro if time is a limiting factor.
Strategy Wise: Rather then focus on copying builds everyone has seen, try to find your own way to do things. The one advantage you should have in theory is in making good decisions and doing good analysis. Older gamers in the pro scene like a Nestea prove this point, it's not his pure mechanics that always made him a threat. It was his ability to push the meta game and make superior decisions over his opponents. Considering HoTS isn't 100% figured out there is more room for that then ever in the meta game right now.
What you watch: If you are going to take any ques from other pros in the scene...try to find ones who play in a manner you can play.
Example: I play Zerg...so if I was going to watch a stream and the two people that were streaming were say Life, and say someone like Catz...if I wanted to learn something I could use I'd watch Catz. Why? because it's unlikely i'll be able to play like a Life can play. I'm not as young, I probably can't be as quick or have his precision; so what he does probably won't work for me. A guy like Catz plays fairly non-standard and is going to play more on the level I can play, so what he does could possibly work for myself as well.
Age is hugely over rated as a factor. I find that people use age as an excuse to justify poor performance and why its not worth trying to do things, when history is littered with examples of people who have confounded societies expectations of what they "should" be doing at their age. In general, anyone can achieve anything. You are the one holding yourself back.
It's all skill + time. 25 games per week is most likely just keeping you refreshed and not demoted. Look at it like weight lifting. If you only do 25 reps of 150 pounds every week you most likely wont increase in strength. You will only maintain the strength that you have.
If it's possible increase you games per week and do a little analysis of your losses and see what happens.
Myself as an example. I am 30 and can still wipe the floor with all the younger players in FPS games just like I did when I was 18. Skill>age. You only get worse with age if you let yourself get out of shape and stop playing.
I think age slows you down, but not for the reasons one might think. I think it slows you down because of all the things you have going on inside your head. For example, I am 30, married with two kids with work and life etc. On a good day I will only work 8 hours and a longer days can be 12, and extreme end has been up to 20 depending on deadlines etc. Just using a good day as an example, I am up at 6 to get ready for work, get my kids breakfast, my oldest off to school, and my youngest to day care. I work all day, pick up the kids get supper ready (wife works too and I am the better cook, don't let her see me say this) and then do dishes and take the kids outside either to ride bike on the trails or play at the park. Then about 8:30-9:30 after the kids are in bed I can sit down and play some games. At this point I sit down to play for an hour or two or three(making myself even more tired). But you must consider, I am tired mentally from a full day and then things pop into my mind from the long list of things I must keep track of. For instance I might simply be doing a FFE vs a zerg and then remember that I need to pay a bill, pick something up, or have an event for one of my kids to go to the next day. So all these thoughts that I have in my head while playing ultimately slows me down. I believe that I play best when I have a clear head, and am well rested. This does not happen often. I play about twice as much as you, about 50 games a week because I play a little more on weekends and have been Masters since season 1, but I do feel that I could do better. When I was younger I played WC3 and was always top 20 on the ladder for example.
I dont know about you, but I feel if I dedicated more time and effort into starcraft, and not had a full time job that took a lot of energy, I could easily squeeze my way into top masters (I am mid diamond currently). Surely if your APM hits higher than say 150, you should be just fine
Interesting topic. Nerski has got it down, just do what he says. In fact, his advice works for almost everyone -- know what you're good at, be it executing a strategy perfectly or out-brawning the opponent in a macro-fest. For instance, I'm a high masters Terran player, and I've been one since pretty much the release of WoL. I tend to do plays that are a little cheesy in the early game, or have some harass potential, so that I can have a chance of winning and getting myself into what I consider the most fascinating parts of SC2. If it fails or doesn't kill the other guy, I proceed somewhat greedily to the max-max battles, essentially. If I see a weakness, I pounce on it.
However, I don't really rely on scouting and adapting to the other guy's composition or game plan, other than to deny expansions and from the scouting I get by harassing. I just kind of do my own thing, macroing and microing happily away.
You get slower as you age, and have a weakened ability to learn, but you can overcome this by playing the style you know a lot about and like, so that learning and speed is easier and more natural. If you prefer a reactive and calculated style, in opposition to the way I like to play, you'll probably be best off asking questions of your opponents and studying possible strategies of yourself and the opponent at points of the game.
I don't play much 1v1 anymore, maybe five games a week, but I play probably fifty team games a week, for reference. I personally think that after about 200 games played in WoL or 200 in HoTS (played and vaguely criticized by yourself), you can get along at high masters with about fifteen games a week. To get into and stay in Masters, ten games a week (again with simple criticisms of yourself by yourself) and thirty minutes of stream watching to stay up on the metagame.
I think age does matter in SC2, but I don't think it matters much. As someone gets older, I assume they do get slower. However, who knows how much slower they will get or how fast the deterioration occurs/at what age. NesTea was stomping kids 10 years younger than him a couple years ago. He was never, even in BW, known for having good mechanics, so who knows how much he has slowed down during his career... If he has slowed down.
The older you get the less motivated you are spending your whole life playing a videogame. The reaction time required to play Starcraft is not so extreme that a 40yo couldn't make it big.
Age is less about hand speed and more about outside-world pressure (i.e "why u not get real job?"), injuries(see BoxeR), and a decrease in passion after playing the same game for 20 years.
Pretty much as cloud said it imo, it's not about getting slower or dumber, it's just about not being as motivated.... since there's little to no future in this... our parents can't support us forever
To say age does not have any effect whatsoever is inaccurate for those above age 25 on average. The effect is slight and more likely does not affect anyone enough to notice anything right around that age line, but neurocognitive decline is a real, scientifically observed thing.
In practice though, it would not impact much below the top pro level of play, if anything.
You also have some advantages when you are older: A bit more maturity in dealing with winning and losing; a lot more patience; better, more efficient approaches to learning.
Compared to a slight decline in physical ability, these advantages may in fact be huge - and while the physical decline may prevent you from reaching pro level, it might even be easier to reach masters with 30 or 35 than with 16 or 20, if you invest the same amount of time. Of course this depends on when you reach what level of maturity.
I'm 27 and play RTS since I was 15 (AoE II). I don't think I got worse through the years. Maybe a bit, because I dont have the time to play as much anymore as before. I think reaction time and speed are a lot more important when playing shooters.
I'll be 29 in the next month, and my APM is extremely low. Another problem is that I never actually learned how to type without looking at the keyboard, I don't remember where all keys are, so I only use a few hotkeys while playing SC2.
My cousins who are more than 10 years younger than me definitely play faster than me, but I managed to beat them a few times because I made better decisions. Ohhh we are all low-ranked players by the way, so I'm not sure the comparison is useful here.
1. Reaction times will definitely increase as you practice, even up to the professional level, likely because of motor learning (automatizing common sequences of commands), perceptual changes (being faster at sizing up and army, or seeing what's in a base you're scouting), and decision-making changes (knowing what to do so that it doesn't take time to decide).
2. Reaction times will definitely decrease as you age, starting at a surprisingly young age.
Given the above, a younger person with equivalent experience will be faster, and faster is definitely better. There will always be exceptional players that have slower than normal APM for their league, but across everyone, APM is good predictor of league, especially at the highest levels (Masters-Pro).
That said, at the amateur level, you still have lots of room to improve, regardless of your age.
We're (the Cognitive Science Lab) working on an aging paper now that outlines the influence of age in SC2 based on the original 3300+ SkillCraft.ca sample. Will post when available. It will be a few months, probably.
On May 17 2013 09:16 synd wrote: If you think you lose because you lack speed, you're totally wrong. No way in hell you can't hit masters if you have the knowledge and know how to react in most of the situations. You very likely don't have the knowledge yet so you have to study more.
And no, there's no skill cap, age skill cap or whatever people may ever call it. The moment you start thinking you can't improve anymore, you're admiting to yourself that you won't improve anymore because you don't want to.
If there is no "age skill cap" why would Flash would beat Boxer 99% of the time? Boxer was the prime at Flashes age and now Flash is prime at that current age. That has nothing to do with anything? A 30/40/50 year old man could do just as well? Doesn't matter?
my belief is that age is a nonfactor in starcraft 2. i am 24 and i can think quicker and move my hands faster than i ever could in my earlier years. it's all a practice thing and! VERY IMPORTANT: being able to adapt to changes in how the game is played.
i believe the reason most older players would retire at a certain age is because of other priorities (includes military service for koreans), not being able to adapt or unwillingness to practice as much or just simply losing their enjoyment of the game.
(1) Less time to practice. (2) Learn slower (ofc you could be smarter than a younger guy, I'm just pointing the average human facts) (3) Slower reactions.
Still, If you always played RTS, you have the mechanics there, so you should be in much better spot. Same goes if you keep a good brain/ hand training like playing piano or chess, that mitigates point 2 and 3. Point 1 is very important since to be at top in Sc2 you need to memorize crisp build orders.
For the record, I consider myself an older guy for an RTS, never played online RTS games before Sc2 and I'm master, so is still posible. I'm 100% sure as other said that at least (3) is not a limiting factor until high master/gm.
And in any case,age shouldn't matter, since you should play just for fun! If you want a challenge, play chess, that is good brain excersice, not Sc2.
Being 33 I will say this. When you play a sport like basketball you typically play with those of similar age and skill. This keeps the sport fun b/c no one will have an extreme advantage. SC2 fails at ranking players of similar skill and age b/c is only ranks you base on your win/lose ratio (forces a 50/50 ratio).
So a 33 yro with 1k games played, APM 30 is matched with an 18 yro (I asked whn the game started), 5k games played and 60 APM.
So does age matter, HELL YA, a 30 yro has a full time job (correction: a career), other interests, a girl friend, etc. While an 18 yro lives w mommy and goes to school.
The issue is not w the age, it is Blizzard failure of matching players and is why we are having such discussions.
On August 19 2013 06:57 myVidster wrote: [...] The issue is not w the age, it is Blizzard failure of matching players and is why we are having such discussions.
Age does apply to everything. reaction-time usually decrease if you are 19, you reach the best reaction-time from 17 to 18. 90% of all games (where time plays a big role) show this, the older you are the more knowledge/experience you have and overcompensate it. From 16-19 years old player is reaction-time by far the biggest strenght vs people with bad reaction-time but have more knowledge/experience.
Speedwise you shouldn't decline in age, the best pianists are the oldest ones. Mechanically though you probably could decline since mechanics the the total sum of your efficiency in inputting commands and handling the output load from the game. Reaction speed probably does go down some which will affect that, and fatigue definitely gets much, much more taxing.
However, I'd say that until a really, really advanced age, your reaction speeds and mechanics shouldn't deteriorate to the point where you couldn't be competitive. What really kills competitiveness in players as they advance in age is more their mindset. Your outlook on life on life changes, your priorities shift, you feel the the burden of responsibilities you may have not shouldered before and all this changes you, to the point where you may not want to be a pro player any more. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, like NesTea, but in general as you grow older I just think you lose your passion.
I have no doubt if your put a 30 year old and a 20 year old together to practice with all things being equal, motivation, practice time, environment, equipment, talent etc they could probably reach the same level more or less.
More directed at the OP, your problem isn't that you are old, its that you only play 25 games per week, you just can't advance in skill any more with that small number of games, especially when there are people playing 25 games per day.
the match making is working as intended. if you get players you feel you can't beat right now, just give it a couple of games and you will be alright.
if you want to play with people your age group i am sure there are ways. 1 suggestion: just make a thread here and ask, i'm sure there are lots of 30+ year olds here who still play (i think i've even seen a thread like that before?).
On August 19 2013 07:15 willstertben wrote: the match making is working as intended. if you get players you feel you can't beat right now, just give it a couple of games and you will be alright.
if you want to play with people your age group i am sure there are ways. 1 suggestion: just make a thread here and ask, i'm sure there are lots of 30+ year olds here who still play (i think i've even seen a thread like that before?).
I tried making a thread to recruit and did not get a response (my guess is that most 30 yros left the game), any other suggestions? Also I am top 8 plat if you are curious.
I have like 90 APM and I've been master every season since season 2. Scouting, decisions, and consistency are more important than APM, you just have to tailor your playstyle to your abilities.
I can play roach/hydra in zvt at a much higher level of execution than muta/ling/bane, for example.
This was a bit of a necro on your part but I'd like to comment on what you said.
The issue is not w the age, it is Blizzard failure of matching players and is why we are having such discussions.
I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting instead. Matching against players of similar skill (overall) is a great way to handle matchmaking. Sure, some players are going to be faster at certain things than others, but to be playing at the same skill level they are going to be worse in other areas. I think age is absolutely irrelevant until you get to a very high level (I'm talking high masters+ at a minimum, and age certainly does not matter at the diamond/low masters level). For example, in golf you still have older players who can have fairly solid scores through the short game and beat younger players who may drive the ball 50 yards farther than them. Let's look at your basketball comparison. Let's say you are playing in a pick-up game and everyone is exactly 33 years old, including 1 NBA professional who happens to stop by and play with you guys. Is his skill level the same as yours? Not even close. However, you could substitute plenty of 20-25 year olds and they could be an even match, much worse than everyone or much better than everyone. It is more about whom has dedicated more time to improving/who has done so the most efficiently.
So does age matter, HELL YA, a 30 yro has a full time job (correction: a career), other interests, a girl friend, etc. While an 18 yro lives w mommy and goes to school.
It really sounds like your post is more of an excuse for being mediocre at starcraft 2 and putting blame on the matchmaking system. I mean, the quote above is ridiculous. There are plenty of 18 year olds who have a job, a girlfriend and other interests in addition to school. If you actually care about starcraft 2 (doubt it's particularly important to you), you can make time despite the obligations you listed to improve to a reasonable skill level. Master's isn't particularly difficult to obtain with a low APM.
It's a well known fact that aging effects your pylon placement, just look at cautionary tale of Artosis. Get old enough and soon you won't be able to predict the outcome of any games.
On August 19 2013 07:25 -Kaiser- wrote: I have like 90 APM and I've been master every season since season 2. Scouting, decisions, and consistency are more important than APM, you just have to tailor your playstyle to your abilities.
I can play roach/hydra in zvt at a much higher level of execution than muta/ling/bane, for example.
Do you feel at all that this hinders your progress? I've doubled my apm over time by playing micro intensive styles with lots of lings/mutas/counter attacks and whatnot. It encourages if not forces you to play with higher apm to keep up and be effective. I'm not sure I would have seen the same results if I was just balling up a big army.
I don't really think that age matters that much unless you're looking to compete for the #1 world spot, I mean look at White-Ra, dude's 30-something, married and such, and he's pretty good.
On August 19 2013 07:25 -Kaiser- wrote: I have like 90 APM and I've been master every season since season 2. Scouting, decisions, and consistency are more important than APM, you just have to tailor your playstyle to your abilities.
I can play roach/hydra in zvt at a much higher level of execution than muta/ling/bane, for example.
Do you feel at all that this hinders your progress? I've doubled my apm over time by playing micro intensive styles with lots of lings/mutas/counter attacks and whatnot. It encourages if not forces you to play with higher apm to keep up and be effective. I'm not sure I would have seen the same results if I was just balling up a big army.
I mean, it hinders my progress so far as the options that are available to me, but I play so seldom (just enough to stay Master, basically) that I have no delusions of going GM. There's always the option of playing styles that force speed and just working up my APM, but this thread is asking "Can I do it without it?", and the answer is definitely yes.
There's a master league guy that plays using the Xbox controller, and iNcontrol is in GM. Being consistent, tight, and making good decisions will take you just as far as speed if you play to those strengths.
If I put a spore and spine in my bases and make sure to keep a few units in position, I don't need massive APM to deal with drops. If I'm going roach/hydra, I don't need to worry about microing and multitasking so bad. If I play a midgame all-in style like roach/bane off 3 base, I don't need to worry about my macro or my lategame army control, etc.
If I'm bad vs protoss air, but good vs zealot archon, I'll deliberately do a disadvantageous opening that invites my opponent into zealot archon instead of air.
In clan wars, I do 'gimmicky' catz shit like proxy hatches and weird tech routes and unusual timings that allow me to take games off of GM and high master players, because I make the game into something I'm more familiar with than them.
You can play SC2 like a strategy game if you really want to, and it's plenty important. Platinum players have 120+ APM nowadays, but it doesn't help if you don't know what you're doing.
On August 19 2013 07:25 -Kaiser- wrote: I have like 90 APM and I've been master every season since season 2. Scouting, decisions, and consistency are more important than APM, you just have to tailor your playstyle to your abilities.
I can play roach/hydra in zvt at a much higher level of execution than muta/ling/bane, for example.
Do you feel at all that this hinders your progress? I've doubled my apm over time by playing micro intensive styles with lots of lings/mutas/counter attacks and whatnot. It encourages if not forces you to play with higher apm to keep up and be effective. I'm not sure I would have seen the same results if I was just balling up a big army.
I mean, it hinders my progress so far as the options that are available to me, but I play so seldom (just enough to stay Master, basically) that I have no delusions of going GM. There's always the option of playing styles that force speed and just working up my APM, but this thread is asking "Can I do it without it?", and the answer is definitely yes.
There's a master league guy that plays using the Xbox controller, and iNcontrol is in GM. Being consistent, tight, and making good decisions will take you just as far as speed if you play to those strengths.
Are you absolutely sure he is in masters? I thought it was diamond.
On August 19 2013 07:25 -Kaiser- wrote: I have like 90 APM and I've been master every season since season 2. Scouting, decisions, and consistency are more important than APM, you just have to tailor your playstyle to your abilities.
I can play roach/hydra in zvt at a much higher level of execution than muta/ling/bane, for example.
Do you feel at all that this hinders your progress? I've doubled my apm over time by playing micro intensive styles with lots of lings/mutas/counter attacks and whatnot. It encourages if not forces you to play with higher apm to keep up and be effective. I'm not sure I would have seen the same results if I was just balling up a big army.
I mean, it hinders my progress so far as the options that are available to me, but I play so seldom (just enough to stay Master, basically) that I have no delusions of going GM. There's always the option of playing styles that force speed and just working up my APM, but this thread is asking "Can I do it without it?", and the answer is definitely yes.
There's a master league guy that plays using the Xbox controller, and iNcontrol is in GM. Being consistent, tight, and making good decisions will take you just as far as speed if you play to those strengths.
Are you absolutely sure he is in masters? I thought it was diamond.
im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance
On August 19 2013 16:56 StatixEx wrote: im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance
I have been masters for 6 seasons straight without having pretty much any insight on scouting intelligence. I play my own game, my own pace and am really aggressive at that. My opponents have to adapt to my pace and not the other way around. I don't know anything about metagames or what to scout ( Yeah, I know how to scout whether it's mech or bio, and whether protoss is going stargate or robo.. which anyone can do at 7:30), I just play my own game and keep the aggression and map control on, while practicing good mechanics.
Saying you have to keep up with builds/metagame etc. to get anywhere is a lame excuse. Up to mid masters it does not make a single difference, as long as you play your own game and have good mechanics.
Sorry to disappoint you but I have no idea how to scout 'so called builds', I scout once at 7:30 to see which buildings are up so I know which tech is up, but builds? no. Spire = muta, stargate = air, robo = colossus/immortals, more than one barracks = bio, more than one factory = mech, that is IT.
The speed factor realistically only really comes into effect at the highest levels of competition. If you are struggling to stay in masters to me that doesn't sound like an age issue unless you have severely hurt your wrists/arms. Realistically You could be like white-ra who is much older then the average pro gamer and yet he is GM level. If your aging realistically being high masters isn't a big deal because there is a big skill gap between high masters, top gm, and then the top professional level. My advice is maybe seek some coaching from a younger player and see if they can identify some of your weaknesses.
Myvidster, the point of forums is to have a discussion. My post furthers the discussion. I'm not sure what you want in the way of facts and figures for a post of that nature considering the information I posted is highly relevant and can be seen in everyday life. But, facts and figures that might agree with me include the idea of approximately 10,000 hours are necessary to become highly skilled in a particular area, I believe age was irrelevant. I'm on my phone right now so if you are incapable of finding this material I will gladly do it later today. Other examples could include incontrol. He has put in a ton of time and is in GM. Clearly, age is not the reason you are in platinum or whatever league you are in.
I think age matters, at least that's my personal opinion. I am now 30 years, I have a taxing job that stresses and goes on my mind. This is a factor that comes with the age if you are a *normal* player who doesn't do this for a living. I don't entertain a family or my time for gaming would be even less. I remember when I was younger, when I was still at school or university I would think about my game of flavor during the lessons, I would spreadsheet and plan when I come home and play for hours. Nowadays I don't do these things anymore, I am simply to exhausted, when I come home I just wanna relax and have a good time and I just dont do spread-sheeting, think about meta gaming, or what not anymore. I just want to relax and well, at least for me starcraft is not relaxing, it is taxing and so I stopped playing it months ago because I played less and less until I was so bad that I din't want to play anymore. I knew I could be better if I had the time and if I was not so mentally exhausted from my work, but that's not in it for me so I quit playing and just lurk TL forums, watch streams or play Dota matches (most of them against bots).
I think that when you get older it is true for most people that they simply don't have the drive they once had for gaming. They want more relaxation, not necessary dumbed down play, but slower play (at least that's true for me).
I know that many will disagree and point out that this pro player or that guy is completely different and that's true. But for me and several of my gaming friends who aged with me, this is the way it feels for us. We remember the times when we got the craziest kills in Counterstrike or Battlefield Bad Company 2 or what not for example and when we play a game of Battlefield 3 today, we don't even know what hit us and just die all the time without ever even seeing the enemy.
You're right Holy_AT, it's the drive that goes first. I'm 36 and was pretty good BW player way back in the day, and an elite Quakeworld player before that. I just came back to SC2 after 2 years away, and after 3 weeks and about 70 games (team game, cbf with 1v1 yet), my APM is 45....lol. I think a couple of years ago at best it was maybe 120. I don't know what it was 10 years ago playing BW but it was alot more than 120. i'd like to get much faster so i can play some decent 1v1 but when i log on now i just find myself wanting to smash around in some team games and have a laugh. 10 years ago there is no way i would have that attitude
really sorry to hear about the angry kaluro above, how old was he again, sounds like 10 yrs old. I dont believe you when you say you dont know how to scout it as every single coach stream ive seen and every single improve point i get told is "u dont scout enough" i had the mentality of just build more shit but that just doesnt do it, if ur a masters i can safely say ur not a very good one. how old are you again?
I think age plays a factor, more so due to the other responsibilities that you have to worry about which can stress one out and make it harder to just focus on getting better. That and your drive to become better seems to decrease with age. I could play for hours on end straight through whether it was BW or RPG/FPS etc... games but nowadays, I'll be lucky to do an hour or two straight before needing a break. Makes me feel so old XD
These sort of questions (like this one, or "does APM matter" or whatever) sort of annoy me, feels like people should be able to think their way to the answer themselves. Age does not matter at all in sc2. If you perform the exact same way as an 18 year old or a 90 year old starcraft 2 will not know how old you are. Your mechanical skills do matter, and age can have an effect on, how much which varies for everyone. This really only comes in to play at the highest levels of play though, am pretty sure someone healthy in their 30s-40s-(50s even I guess) will have no problem physically reaching masters and potentially even grandmasters.
I mean OP is 32 and is asking if he is capped because of his age as diamond, Boxer and White-ra are 32 and pretty sure they could both reach grandmaster if they felt like it (assuming they aren't already which they very well might be)
People have mentioned this but I think it's important to emphasise that as far as success goes in SC2 mechanical ability does not take priority over game knowledge and decision making. Maybe your micro is not going to be on the same levels as BW Bisu, and that's okay. Know your weaknesses, play to your strengths, and constantly adjust your playstyle to what they are.
I'll turn 28 this year, so a few years younger than OP, and when I checked my last week's worth of games (86 of them) I had an average of 67 Bliazzard-APM. So pretty damn slow.
I've still managed to reach relatively high Masters (~450th atm on NA) and beat my fair share of GMs by building my play around my strengths (positioning, decision making, preparation, etc) instead of worrying how bad I might be if I tried to use Flash's latest build.
Pros start to struggle at an old age because they don't have an undying need to succeed. In the early 20s, men are doing everything they can to feel like they've accomplished something. But the late 20s, you have an idea of who you want to be. A lot of times, that means not committing 10 hours a day to gaming, and actually getting a career and starting a family. If you don't have that dying need, you won't be as good.
I want to criticize some of the comparisons made in this thread. I do not think it makes any sense to compare a casual or amateur player to a pro player. Its the 'job' of the pro player to be good at what he does but the rest of us folks will have other lines of work to do if we are not unemployed. Therefore a pro player will have tons and tons more practice then the average player.
In my opinion (effective)APM matters even at the lower levels of play because the difference can be even greater there as in the pro level. Whereas in a pro game, pro players can have a second or seconds of difference in their execution and this matters, lower players will have even greater differences and therefore difficulties.
For me Starcraft has 2 or three components. The strategic component: What do I build, when do I expand, where will I attack, generally "the decision making" as you may call it. And the execution component or micro (in my opinion the often quoted makro is just a form of micro or you may call it base micro it is part of the execution aspect of the game), where you build your workers, build your army and execute the attack/defense whatever. You can be the best at decision making if you are really behind in micro/execution and it would not matter. Your opponent will have the bigger army, better economy and simply steamroll you by numbers or a perfect timing. I think in lower levels the execution/micro component is even more important then some elaborate strategical play.
On August 20 2013 03:35 StatixEx wrote: really sorry to hear about the angry kaluro above, how old was he again, sounds like 10 yrs old. I dont believe you when you say you dont know how to scout it as every single coach stream ive seen and every single improve point i get told is "u dont scout enough" i had the mentality of just build more shit but that just doesnt do it, if ur a masters i can safely say ur not a very good one. how old are you again?
Enlighten me please on how any of my post was made in an angry manner? Are you just too stubborn to acknowledge that metagaming and proper reaction is more of a 1600+ MMR thing, and that it's all just mechanics up to low/mid masters? And how does any of what I wrote, sound immature, or something which a 10 year old would write?
You would also have known I had a job at which I was gone from home from 7 AM till 6 PM, do strength training 3-5 times a week and maintain a fulltime relationship ..Oh yeah I'm about to hit 25, in october.
You can watch my VODS @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo and also acknowledge that I barely scout at all, if at all. I know basic gas timings per match up, basic openers. Anything else is purely done through self-created tactics and not "I scout A so I have to do B".
Just for your sake, I'll paste my post once more, I'll allow you to dissect it and tell me exactly which part was angry or immature:
On August 19 2013 16:56 StatixEx wrote: im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance
I have been masters for 6 seasons straight without having pretty much any insight on scouting intelligence. I play my own game, my own pace and am really aggressive at that. My opponents have to adapt to my pace and not the other way around. I don't know anything about metagames or what to scout ( Yeah, I know how to scout whether it's mech or bio, and whether protoss is going stargate or robo.. which anyone can do at 7:30), I just play my own game and keep the aggression and map control on, while practicing good mechanics.
Saying you have to keep up with builds/metagame etc. to get anywhere is a lame excuse. Up to mid masters it does not make a single difference, as long as you play your own game and have good mechanics.
Sorry to disappoint you but I have no idea how to scout 'so called builds', I scout once at 7:30 to see which buildings are up so I know which tech is up, but builds? no. Spire = muta, stargate = air, robo = colossus/immortals, more than one barracks = bio, more than one factory = mech, that is IT.
Also anyone should be able to hit low masters through pure mechanics/macro, without any strategic insight. You can refer to my vods @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo for proof.. ^_^
On August 20 2013 03:35 StatixEx wrote: really sorry to hear about the angry kaluro above, how old was he again, sounds like 10 yrs old. I dont believe you when you say you dont know how to scout it as every single coach stream ive seen and every single improve point i get told is "u dont scout enough" i had the mentality of just build more shit but that just doesnt do it, if ur a masters i can safely say ur not a very good one. how old are you again?
Enlighten me please on how any of my post was made in an angry manner? Are you just too stubborn to acknowledge that metagaming and proper reaction is more of a 1600+ MMR thing, and that it's all just mechanics up to low/mid masters? And how does any of what I wrote, sound immature, or something which a 10 year old would write?
You would also have known I had a job at which I was gone from home from 7 AM till 6 PM, do strength training 3-5 times a week and maintain a fulltime relationship ..Oh yeah I'm about to hit 25, in october.
You can watch my VODS @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo and also acknowledge that I barely scout at all, if at all. I know basic gas timings per match up, basic openers. Anything else is purely done through self-created tactics and not "I scout A so I have to do B".
Just for your sake, I'll paste my post once more, I'll allow you to dissect it and tell me exactly which part was angry or immature:
On August 19 2013 16:56 StatixEx wrote: im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance
I have been masters for 6 seasons straight without having pretty much any insight on scouting intelligence. I play my own game, my own pace and am really aggressive at that. My opponents have to adapt to my pace and not the other way around. I don't know anything about metagames or what to scout ( Yeah, I know how to scout whether it's mech or bio, and whether protoss is going stargate or robo.. which anyone can do at 7:30), I just play my own game and keep the aggression and map control on, while practicing good mechanics.
Saying you have to keep up with builds/metagame etc. to get anywhere is a lame excuse. Up to mid masters it does not make a single difference, as long as you play your own game and have good mechanics.
Sorry to disappoint you but I have no idea how to scout 'so called builds', I scout once at 7:30 to see which buildings are up so I know which tech is up, but builds? no. Spire = muta, stargate = air, robo = colossus/immortals, more than one barracks = bio, more than one factory = mech, that is IT.
Also anyone should be able to hit low masters through pure mechanics/macro, without any strategic insight. You can refer to my vods @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo for proof.. ^_^
I agree. When I played, I got to masters (peaked at rank 1, even played some GM people) and all I did was copy build orders I saw from day9 and from streams.
Remembering my play now, I wasn't even really thinking while playing, my mechanics just allowed me to win most games. I don't really want this to sound like bragging, I haven't played in over a year and I'm sure the level of play is much better now and this might not be possible, but I was really dumb about the game and managed to get to masters just with mechanics, 2 basing and things I saw other people do.
I forced my opponents to play a game of mechanics with me and so I managed to win without any conscious strategic thinking basically. 2 cents
Efficiency is much more important than speed, you only need around 100 eAPM to do well, so if you can't play faster, work on taking out unnecessary actions.
I have horrible micro, and I'm old by progamer standards (23), but I still made highish masters playing random solely on the back of good macro and multitasking.
You don't need super gosu micro to win even at high masters, and micro is usually what gives you a lot of APM. I find screens per minute to be a much better indicator of how fast you are; as long as I'm not about to play ghosts vs. templars or fight a 200/200 laser war, I spread a bit, stim/use abilities if necessary, A-move and go back to macro or harassment.
It's simply better to use my attention and increase my army count by 30% through macro and harassment management, than watch the battle microing my heart out preserving 10% of my army count. The latter gives you more APM in the end, but it just doesn't matter if you don't find a second army at your rally point after an engagement.
I'll chime in again for people debating age with just this.
Age will 100% make it harder to go from someone who hasn't played or has played little RTS to get really good at the game.
Not because you'd be to slow, not because you couldn't learn. It will because your time is much more likely to be limited, your real life commitments are much more likely to make you less motivated, and there is a higher possibility of physical impediments making it difficult.
If somehow at say age 30 someone was able to be in good health, dedicate hours and hours to the game, keep themselves motivated, they could likely achieve some high level of play. However, at age 30 that'd be oh so difficult as there is a huge risk of failure resulting in your life situation being extremely adversely effected.
All that vs anyone under age 18 where you have virtually no backlash should you fail to achieve a high level of play.
The only thing that being older say 25+ won't stop you from doing is maintaing a high level of play if you already achieved it at a younger age. This is why you see 30+ year old main stream pro sports players. They have already achieved a high level of play and all they have to do is maintain it the best they can.
On August 20 2013 13:45 Nerski wrote: I'll chime in again for people debating age with just this.
Age will 100% make it harder to go from someone who hasn't played or has played little RTS to get really good at the game.
Not because you'd be to slow, not because you couldn't learn. It will because your time is much more likely to be limited, your real life commitments are much more likely to make you less motivated, and there is a higher possibility of physical impediments making it difficult.
If somehow at say age 30 someone was able to be in good health, dedicate hours and hours to the game, keep themselves motivated, they could likely achieve some high level of play. However, at age 30 that'd be oh so difficult as there is a huge risk of failure resulting in your life situation being extremely adversely effected.
All that vs anyone under age 18 where you have virtually no backlash should you fail to achieve a high level of play.
The only thing that being older say 25+ won't stop you from doing is maintaing a high level of play if you already achieved it at a younger age. This is why you see 30+ year old main stream pro sports players. They have already achieved a high level of play and all they have to do is maintain it the best they can.
This why most leagues (ie basketball, football) are grouped by age, a married biz owner working 50+ hours has no desire to play with an 18 yro college drop out. If the under 25 posters disagree I can post a few links to rec leagues that have age requirements. SC2 is a e-sport, not a game, and it should be treated as a sport and not a game which is how most posters are viewing it as.
Let me say it one more time SC2 is a sport not a game. Dead Space 3 is a game if you are curious.
Certainly not at the amateur level. I would worry about age at the point where you're thinking of making this a career, which it doesn't sound like applies to you. I imagine that any age person can play at a high-masters level with enough focus and dedication.
As many other posters have said, it is available-time not age that is the primary limiting factor. The two just happen to correspond.
I don't think that "getting slower trough age" is hindering your mechanics a lot. If we we simplify APM a lot it's nothing more than just hitting keys rapidly, doing so is just muscle memory and your keyboard and the key layout in SCII (depending on which one you use) isn't that big. If age would hinder you from typing fast most secretaries would have to quit their job in their 30ies which is just totally stupid. A secretary on average has to type around 65 words per minute (wpm), assuming each word has 5 letters on average and leaving out blank spaces and punctuation we will have 65*5=325 key-strokes per minute, that's 325 APM. Of course this calculation is highly simplified and typing actual words is different than executing different actions in reaction to what is happening in the game.
I think the real problem with getting older is, that your reaction time decreases. You can still hit 300+ APM but you just are not able to react properly to the stuff that is happening on your screen. That can be countered with good game knowledge and safe play I think but only to a certain extend.
It's simpler than the OP thinks it is. Depending on how hardcore you've gone on gaming/whatever, physical stuff wouldn't change due to age unless there were a lot of factors affecting your health (poor nutrition, etc). Mostly, it'd be a problem with straining yourself too often and/or have weaker wrists or sluggish joints due to how long you've been playing games with high apm/movement requirements.
Something a ton of gamers overlook is posture and positioning when playing anything. I hold an xbox 360 controller different than anyone I know and cannot hold a PS3 controller at all because it's grip is bad for me. I've got large hands with a wide palm that needs to be filled in order to hold a controller perfectly, otherwise it slips. PS3 controller layouts are the worst for me and their size is terrible.
Another good, personal example would be Guitar Hero. Not sure how many people have/are able to play on the Expert difficulty for any song, but it's very strenuous movement of your wrist and fingers on your left hand. The controllers for that and Rock Band aren't ergonomic in the slightest way, so my hand slips yet again and I can get awkward handling from it which magnifies any straining. I've actually played a set of maybe 4-6 really hard songs on Rock Band before and caused my left hand to have sharp shooting pains and numbness from it, even permanent damage from it likely. I also have bad genetics, so my joints, knees, ankles and wrists are naturally worse than most others (mother has R.A., CTS problems from accounting).
Anyway, there's a lot of contributing factors and I don't think age has anything to do with it. Length of time you've spent in awkward positioning of your hands and general usage of your fingers/wrists at a higher level than normal is way more important. That's why 'age' is considered a big deal in esports, because they've already spent x years straining themselves. Also would probably relate to the korean scene and their military service requirements, and it just transcended to the western world via slang terms and bullshit talk.
My recommendation is to work on your hotkey setup to get what works best for you, get a good chair, don't slump down or lean forward when you play, get a better desk for your posture and practice playing more often. You play nowhere near as much as a pro or nolifer, so you cannot expect to get better over time more quickly than you are currently without extra effort. Also, some people just have better performance in games than others. It doesn't help that you've got a billion other things factoring into your rank other than your apm or mechanics. You even said it yourself, you only play 1 freakin' build order, man!
Edit: as a response to the post above me, reaction time can be sort of 'fine-tuned' with brain exercise, a.k.a. pushing yourself beyond what you normally do. Simply playing more will help that, we're not talking about people in their 50s and 60s here.
EPT
So what im trying to say is that you're not losing because of your speed in Diamond league.
