Funny, cause he actually did get paid to do it for 3 years. His only mistake was explaining it to the audience who were too dumb to get it.
The community itself created this monster, by choosing what type of players to watch. HyuN can stream with sub 500 viewers while destiny and dragon have 5000, playing the same game. IdrA gave people what they wanted, even though they didn't understand it themselves.
That's because a lot of SC2 is about entertainment. There is like 2-5% in these master leagues that can actually reap something from watching top SC2 play (and hopefully commentate). This kind of knowledge is useless to all the other people, so they'd rather go for something else.
For example: I watched enough MKP to learn that marines are the counter to banelings. Guess what happened when I tried to apply that kind of knowledge to my ladder games
It is not necessary to have Code-S level skill to be an interesting streamer. This applies to Idra. He did not perform that well in tournaments etc, still he played way better than 99.99% of people who watched his stream. And that is more than enough to make the stream skill-wise interesting.
Than there is the fun factor that IdrA brought to his games, with all the rage, commentary, background etc. It worked pretty well together until IdrA went a bridge too far.
"It worked pretty well together until IdrA went a bridge too far."
It had to happen after what he said. He'd been reprimanded in the past for things he said and he pushed things too far too many times. Even if what he said was true you can't say it and expect to keep your job. You'll never see a representative for McDonalds going "Hey dipshits, you know this stuff is essentially poison right?" and him still collecting a paycheck, even if he's telling the truth that the food they sling is horrific for you. That's just not how the real world works.
He's got huge marketability so he will find another place to play if he so desires. He might take a hit to his salary because I doubt many teams can offer him the salary EG could. If they could he certainly couldn't be as reckless as he was with his mouth because they wouldn't have the standing with their sponsors to keep them content. I could see him going the personal sponsorship route and that is probably where the most money would be for him. But also I think he'd have to be the most tight lipped there. If you have no team to shield you from the sponsors they could pull their sponsorships very quickly if he fucked up again. There would be no buffer to shelter him.
I don't hate the guy, he could keep things interesting. When he did to casting I enjoyed it. He's a smart guy, he's marketable. If he wants to stay around he'll find a way.
The last major tourney idra was in, he had decent results. 2-0 both stephano and roro. Then lost 3-1 to Rain in WCS worlds. Since then, he lost to a good polt and revival. If he had won, things would have been different.
On May 11 2013 05:11 c0sm0naut wrote: I think this is unfair to Greg. I think this industry is suited well for the "bad boys" of sc. If EG hired him to be a player, they Should release him based on that, not an attitude issue. I agree that he was too vocal bout his opinions of fans/the game but I really dislike the idea that eg is setting/solidifying an already existing norm for esports organizations are both responsible for their players opinions/behavior and have to manage them. Basketball players like Kobe can rape women and still play for the same franchise for years, and as a community we just ignore it or develop stronger feelings of team rivalrly against the lakers. I have the mental power to understand that what idra says is not only separate from egs opinions, but also enough to understand that someone who has dedicated their life to this sport up until now is likely filled with pressure, emotional connection to the game and needs to be given respect. The people acting on this decision are not respecting the level of dedication Greg has to this game or what he as done to bridge the gap between NA and KR. EGs players still have my full support but I am tremendously disappointed in this company's inability to recognize Greg's consistent practice ad performance, instead deciding to focus on moments of meteoric emotions which are completely understandable from anyone who has played a game professionally. Period.
You can't possibly compare what Kobe did with what Idra did which is basically saying your employer endorses you shitting on community. Greg's performance ? Refusing to adopt to bl-infestor style because it's not his style when all other zergs dominate shows dedication of his...
On May 11 2013 02:16 IPA wrote: In professional life, you can't act like a spoiled, raging child and expect your employers to deal with it. I applaud EG for treating their business like a business and not like a day care center.
IdrA -- you can be relevent without being immature (I hope). Find your path bud. Your lack of respect for the community, other players, and yourself has become painful to see. Good luck.
You are probably right about his behavior and his professionalism - this is also the reason why I'm not a fan of him.
But the first thought in my mind after reading this news was that EG took the opportunity to get rid of Idra. This is of course pure speculation from myself but he got probably as much salary as their hole Korean Proleauge-Linup with exception of JD and Idra's level and his popularity and therefore his worth for EG slowly faded away through the last year. (just look at tournament results and stream numbers) I'm pretty sure if he would still be on top of his career EG would never released him for this stuff.
This isn't an unreasonable speculation, but I think it's highly improbable.
EG doesn't have a business model that is strictly related to skill-base - they also invest in strong personalities that get exposure (i.e Geoff. "Incontrol" Robinson). Idra, though quite the opposite of Incontrol with regards to his professionalism and personality, still was able to be marketed as a "tough" guy / "badass nerd".
That image of Idra, however, is severely damaged when he openly taunted and insulted his entire viewership and customer-base. To think that Idra's viewership only consisted of die-hard fans or trolls is ridiculous - it was mostly a casual audience that wasn't heavily invested in Idra, but had disposable income and enjoyed being part of the e-sports scene. He literally told those people, who have nothing to do with any drama or anything, really, that they were all "fucks" and "sheep".
When you say something like that to your customers, it's unrecoverable. I'll reiterate that it's like owning a bakery, and every time a customer walks in you say: "You're a fat fuck, can't believe you actually buy my pastries HAHA". . . regardless of who the customer is.
Well, in one regard Idra imo isn't totally wrong. This community sometimes has a lot of "sheep". Just imagine Idra would have dominated his wcs-group as he was able to 2 years ago - he would have been the story of the week and most people wouldn't have cared about his post. But this is not entirely my point - I believe EG sees his players as most company’s would do as a sort of profit-center and I'm pretty sure, they think they can get better return of their money with other investments so they took the opportunity given and released Idra over this.
If you think Idra wasn't going to still be a valuable asset to EG, regardless of whether he won in WCS or not, I'd have to say you are out of touch. I don't think there's any way they would have released Idra if he hadn't made that statement on a public forum.
And from the press release, Alex Garfield made that point - that Idra crossed the line with the worst transgression to date. I don't think there's a conspiracy here. It's Idra's fault that he's in this position. Idra, and no one else.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Idra is a poor victim, I'm just saying I think this is as much of a business decision as it is a moral one because of his statement. And I don't think Idra is as much of an valuable asset to EG as he was - he has probably a pretty good salary, therefore he was a pretty expensive asset to EG.
Yes I can agree with these points. It probably was easier for them to justify letting him go than say, a year ago. But I think, as a business, they have to let him go whether it was yesteryear or today after a statement like that.
I just don't know how, in EG's shoes, you can justify to your sponsors one of your players calling their customers "fucks' and "sheep". That's not how Monster Energy, Razor etc etc want to be branded. And they are higher on the food chain than EG.
I disagree. I don't think for a second that they would have fired him a year or two ago for something like this. It's like people somehow have gotten amnesia of all the stupid things he's said and done before. In so many words he's called his fans, players and community members similar things many times. This must have been something that's been building up for quite some time and this was the thing that pushed it over the top.
I don't recall any time in Idra's past that he has ever stated that his entire audience are "fucks" and blatantly stated that he is deliberately manipulating them with the consent of EG in order to profit from abusive behavior.
I think there is a disconnect for most people here. Do you not realize how utterly disrespectful Idra's statement was, to not only his viewership, but also his team and Alex Garfield? The statement implied that EG was deliberately paying him to be abusive towards customers. That's isn't just crossing "the line" . . .that's launching yourself over "the line" with a cannon.
On May 11 2013 05:14 uberism wrote: The last major tourney idra was in, he had decent results. 2-0 both stephano and roro. Then lost 3-1 to Rain in WCS worlds. Since then, he lost to a good polt and revival. If he had won, things would have been different.
Loss is not the correct word. Ragequitted would have been a better description. 200/200 with 3k/3k, even a bronze can tell you that you should at least play it out. That is also extremely disrespectful to the scene, along with his other comments.
Meh, I find him dropping matches left and right a worse offense than insulting his fans. Sure insulting his fans is in pretty bad taste and a really stupid thing to do, but it's not really that unexpected is it? Constantly dropping games however actually made watching him play rather frustrating for the viewer. I enjoyed watching him win and I enjoyed watching him lose, what I did not enjoy was watching him quit. I couldn't care less about him insulting the community, but seeing the way he chooses to perform at tournaments makes me say "good riddance".
On May 11 2013 05:18 BeeNu wrote: Meh, I find him dropping matches left and right a worse offense than insulting his fans. Sure insulting his fans is in pretty bad taste and a really stupid thing to do, but it's not really that unexpected is it? Constantly dropping games however actually made watching him play rather frustrating for the viewer. I enjoyed watching him win and I enjoyed watching him lose, what I did not enjoy was watching him quit. I couldn't care less about him insulting the community, but seeing the way he chooses to perform at tournaments makes me say "good riddance".
Agreed, but keep in mind he didn't just insult his fans. He insulted Evil Geniuses by implying that he had consent to be abusive. That's a key element to this that people are overlooking.
On May 11 2013 05:11 c0sm0naut wrote: I think this is unfair to Greg. I think this industry is suited well for the "bad boys" of sc. If EG hired him to be a player, they Should release him based on that, not an attitude issue. I agree that he was too vocal bout his opinions of fans/the game but I really dislike the idea that eg is setting/solidifying an already existing norm for esports organizations are both responsible for their players opinions/behavior and have to manage them. Basketball players like Kobe can rape women and still play for the same franchise for years, and as a community we just ignore it or develop stronger feelings of team rivalrly against the lakers. I have the mental power to understand that what idra says is not only separate from egs opinions, but also enough to understand that someone who has dedicated their life to this sport up until now is likely filled with pressure, emotional connection to the game and needs to be given respect. The people acting on this decision are not respecting the level of dedication Greg has to this game or what he as done to bridge the gap between NA and KR. EGs players still have my full support but I am tremendously disappointed in this company's inability to recognize Greg's consistent practice ad performance, instead deciding to focus on moments of meteoric emotions which are completely understandable from anyone who has played a game professionally. Period.
You can't possibly compare what Kobe did with what Idra did which is basically saying your employer endorses you shitting on community. Greg's performance ? Refusing to adopt to bl-infestor style because it's not his style when all other zergs dominate shows dedication of his...
Dignity is a rare trait nowadays. How many people wouldn't use an obviously overpowered unit/composition just because they knew it was not actual skill? So, actually, it really does show dedication of his. That's like refusing to use a gun in a sword fight! That deserves some respect.
I totally agree with Idra if I where Idra, (only that I wouldnt say it out in public)
The community, even mr bitter for example flamed Idra, most ppl have flamed him lately, I would if I was Idra feel uther hate against all the abusers and bullies out there, even tho I was one aswell...but it would make me depressed having all that shit said about me everywhere...like ppl say here "finally he got what he deserved" etc. Just think about it for a sec, what Idra would feel when reading that? And for him to hate the community is just as Eminim hates his fans, they still love him, and so does the sc2 fans of IDra, even tho Idra hates them, he also loves them, but he got issues explaining feelings, like most americans. Hate is so common in america. So I understand Idra, and I understand the teams choice aswell, Idra would have just had to be a bit nicer and ppl would stop all the hate against him, and everything for him especially would be better...its Karma...you get what you send out there, if you hate, you get hate back. If you love you really feel great with all the warmth ppl send you. So I hope Idra learn from this and grows up, this isnt him, its just him being depressed and hate is the most comfortable feeling to use when being depressed to cover the depression with. It feels true in a sence then.
But anyway, it would be awesome to see Idra make a comeback as a solo player or in a B team, winning a major or such, and then send out some nasty shit about EGs decition.
On May 11 2013 05:24 sPSalai wrote: I totally agree with Idra if I where Idra, (only that I wouldnt say it out in public)
The community, even mr bitter for example flamed Idra, most ppl have flamed him lately, I would if I was Idra feel uther hate against all the abusers and bullies out there, even tho I was one aswell...but it would make me depressed having all that shit said about me everywhere...like ppl say here "finally he got what he deserved" etc. Just think about it for a sec, what Idra would feel when reading that? And for him to hate the community is just as Eminim hates his fans, they still love him, and so does the sc2 fans of IDra, even tho Idra hates them, he also loves them, but he got issues explaining feelings, like most americans. Hate is so common in america. So I understand Idra, and I understand the teams choice aswell, Idra would have just had to be a bit nicer and ppl would stop all the hate against him, and everything for him especially would be better...its Karma...you get what you send out there, if you hate, you get hate back. If you love you really feel great with all the warmth ppl send you. So I hope Idra learn from this and grows up, this isnt him, its just him being depressed and hate is the most comfortable feeling to use when being depressed to cover the depression with. It feels true in a sence then.
But anyway, it would be awesome to see Idra make a comeback as a solo player or in a B team, winning a major or such, and then send out some nasty shit about EGs decition.
You're generalizing and stereotyping. "Most people" who watch Starcraft have nothing to do with the drama, are not heavily invested in Idra, and don't want to be called a "fuck" or a "sheep" by someone they are rooting for. If Idra had "called out" the select minority of trolls and rude individuals making things difficult on him, no one would have cared. But he went after his meat-and-potatoes audience.
This business isn't just catering to 12-year-olds anymore. It's an actual industry with real money to be made and a big, legitimate viewership. Consequently, companies like EG have to make big-boy, big-balls decisions that consider their long-term well being. The key message here is that Insulting the casual, adult-viewership (many of whom have disposable income) is not going to be a viable way of conducting business in this industry. The lines are drawn.
On May 11 2013 05:11 c0sm0naut wrote: I think this is unfair to Greg. I think this industry is suited well for the "bad boys" of sc. If EG hired him to be a player, they Should release him based on that, not an attitude issue. I agree that he was too vocal bout his opinions of fans/the game but I really dislike the idea that eg is setting/solidifying an already existing norm for esports organizations are both responsible for their players opinions/behavior and have to manage them. Basketball players like Kobe can rape women and still play for the same franchise for years, and as a community we just ignore it or develop stronger feelings of team rivalrly against the lakers. I have the mental power to understand that what idra says is not only separate from egs opinions, but also enough to understand that someone who has dedicated their life to this sport up until now is likely filled with pressure, emotional connection to the game and needs to be given respect. The people acting on this decision are not respecting the level of dedication Greg has to this game or what he as done to bridge the gap between NA and KR. EGs players still have my full support but I am tremendously disappointed in this company's inability to recognize Greg's consistent practice ad performance, instead deciding to focus on moments of meteoric emotions which are completely understandable from anyone who has played a game professionally. Period.
You can't possibly compare what Kobe did with what Idra did which is basically saying your employer endorses you shitting on community. Greg's performance ? Refusing to adopt to bl-infestor style because it's not his style when all other zergs dominate shows dedication of his...
Dignity is a rare trait nowadays. How many people wouldn't use an obviously overpowered unit/composition just because they knew it was not actual skill? So, actually, it really does show dedication of his. That's like refusing to use a gun in a sword fight! That deserves some respect.
No, it actually doesn't deserve any respect. I do respect Idra for being a hard worker, but that alone doesn't mean a whole lot...as the old adage goes, "work smart, not hard."
I mean, do you really respect Idra more than someone like MC just because MC is more prone to all-in or refine and use the current strong builds? I know I don't, I respect victory more than how it's gained.
On May 11 2013 05:14 uberism wrote: The last major tourney idra was in, he had decent results. 2-0 both stephano and roro. Then lost 3-1 to Rain in WCS worlds. Since then, he lost to a good polt and revival. If he had won, things would have been different.
I have to dissagree, with what he posted here, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411483¤tpage=4#73 there was still going to be a disciplinary action involved. Weather or not that was a realease or a time out like Stephano got, I am not sure, but I still do think there would have been some form of discipline if he lost to polt or not. Including his rage quit in game one, where not only did he have a chance, but he left at max supply with no gg.
I hate to see a man lose his livelihood, but this was deserved.
You can't be a prick all the time to everybody without consequences.
When you are a professional eAthlete, you should have some class, sportsmanship, and manners. Idra has always lacked all of these things and it's about time he got what was coming to him. If you act the way he acted, you sure as hell better be able to back it up, and he hasn't been able to back it up in a long time.
This only boosts the EG brand, which has only been getting better and better recently. This has been a long time coming.
On May 11 2013 02:16 IPA wrote: In professional life, you can't act like a spoiled, raging child and expect your employers to deal with it. I applaud EG for treating their business like a business and not like a day care center.
IdrA -- you can be relevent without being immature (I hope). Find your path bud. Your lack of respect for the community, other players, and yourself has become painful to see. Good luck.
You are probably right about his behavior and his professionalism - this is also the reason why I'm not a fan of him.
But the first thought in my mind after reading this news was that EG took the opportunity to get rid of Idra. This is of course pure speculation from myself but he got probably as much salary as their hole Korean Proleauge-Linup with exception of JD and Idra's level and his popularity and therefore his worth for EG slowly faded away through the last year. (just look at tournament results and stream numbers) I'm pretty sure if he would still be on top of his career EG would never released him for this stuff.
This isn't an unreasonable speculation, but I think it's highly improbable.
EG doesn't have a business model that is strictly related to skill-base - they also invest in strong personalities that get exposure (i.e Geoff. "Incontrol" Robinson). Idra, though quite the opposite of Incontrol with regards to his professionalism and personality, still was able to be marketed as a "tough" guy / "badass nerd".
That image of Idra, however, is severely damaged when he openly taunted and insulted his entire viewership and customer-base. To think that Idra's viewership only consisted of die-hard fans or trolls is ridiculous - it was mostly a casual audience that wasn't heavily invested in Idra, but had disposable income and enjoyed being part of the e-sports scene. He literally told those people, who have nothing to do with any drama or anything, really, that they were all "fucks" and "sheep".
When you say something like that to your customers, it's unrecoverable. I'll reiterate that it's like owning a bakery, and every time a customer walks in you say: "You're a fat fuck, can't believe you actually buy my pastries HAHA". . . regardless of who the customer is.
Well, in one regard Idra imo isn't totally wrong. This community sometimes has a lot of "sheep". Just imagine Idra would have dominated his wcs-group as he was able to 2 years ago - he would have been the story of the week and most people wouldn't have cared about his post. But this is not entirely my point - I believe EG sees his players as most company’s would do as a sort of profit-center and I'm pretty sure, they think they can get better return of their money with other investments so they took the opportunity given and released Idra over this.
If you think Idra wasn't going to still be a valuable asset to EG, regardless of whether he won in WCS or not, I'd have to say you are out of touch. I don't think there's any way they would have released Idra if he hadn't made that statement on a public forum.
And from the press release, Alex Garfield made that point - that Idra crossed the line with the worst transgression to date. I don't think there's a conspiracy here. It's Idra's fault that he's in this position. Idra, and no one else.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Idra is a poor victim, I'm just saying I think this is as much of a business decision as it is a moral one because of his statement. And I don't think Idra is as much of an valuable asset to EG as he was - he has probably a pretty good salary, therefore he was a pretty expensive asset to EG.
Yes I can agree with these points. It probably was easier for them to justify letting him go than say, a year ago. But I think, as a business, they have to let him go whether it was yesteryear or today after a statement like that.
I just don't know how, in EG's shoes, you can justify to your sponsors one of your players calling their customers "fucks' and "sheep". That's not how Monster Energy, Razor etc etc want to be branded. And they are higher on the food chain than EG.
I disagree. I don't think for a second that they would have fired him a year or two ago for something like this. It's like people somehow have gotten amnesia of all the stupid things he's said and done before. In so many words he's called his fans, players and community members similar things many times. This must have been something that's been building up for quite some time and this was the thing that pushed it over the top.
I don't recall any time in Idra's past that he has ever stated that his entire audience are "fucks" and blatantly stated that he is deliberately manipulating them with the consent of EG in order to profit from abusive behavior.
I think there is a disconnect for most people here. Do you not realize how utterly disrespectful Idra's statement was, to not only his viewership, but also his team and Alex Garfield? The statement implied that EG was deliberately paying him to be abusive towards customers. That's isn't just crossing "the line" . . .that's launching yourself over "the line" with a cannon.
I think you really highlighted well what makes this comment from Idra different from things he has said in the past. Even though it seems similar, the way he worded it basically says, "EG condones my behavior," which really forced EG's hand.
Sure, in the past EG has tacitly supported Idra by continuing to employ him despite his BM, but they could always say, "we do not approve, and are working with him to correct his behavior" or whatever.
This time, however, Idra didn't leave them that kind of wiggle room with his statement. As long as they kept cutting him paychecks, they'd be proving him right, which is not a desirable position to be in for a business like EG.
EPT
