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TheStC and ViBE now move onto the live rounds of the tournament played starting on May 20th, while theognis and ViBE will fight in the online Challenger League for chances to re-enter the Premier League.
u wot m8 
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
TheStC and ViBE now move onto the live rounds of the tournament played starting on May 20th
Gratz ViBE! :p
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Any of the matches worth watching?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
america heroes thestc and snute showing us who's boss
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On April 30 2013 22:16 Dirkzor wrote:
Any of the matches worth watching?
Nope
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On April 30 2013 22:17 opterown wrote:
america heroes thestc and snute showing us who's boss
what you did there
i see it
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On April 30 2013 22:06 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
Let the guessing game begin ^^ Too much TLPD
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American players are showing outstanding performances.
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France9034 Posts
As expected !
Good job Snute !
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Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition.
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Congrats & Good luck to Snute & TheSTC
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On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition.
Probably because they´re communists.
Way to go Snute. Hope the Defoe-Zerg will go far and represent cuteness.
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On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition.
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. There is no product being provided to the player or exchange of goods for services. Adam Smith would not approve of your theory. If anything, Blizzard is attempting to have a promote a skilled player pool in each time zone.
Basing the prize pool on the projected skill of the players is very silly when anyone from any region can compete in the event. Also, if you knock down the prize pool based on the community's perception of the skill level of the player pool, the high skilled players will simply move to a different region the community believe that the skill level is higher.
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United States33397 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:32 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Probably because they´re communists.
Without joking, the arguments for equal prize/region locking fall pretty closely along the lines of some economic policy arguments
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On April 30 2013 22:34 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:32 Daswollvieh wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Probably because they´re communists. Without joking, the arguments for equal prize/region locking fall pretty closely along the lines of some economic policy arguments
Yes, but free market arguments do not apply to prize pools, since they are not driven by any market or interaction. Dream hack does not set it's prize pool based on MLG or IEM. The flattening of the prize pools is likely be to promote players to move to different regions, and have a more evenly distributed skill pool. I guess you could call that a skill market, but I think that is stretching the analogy.
Also, Happy Birthday!
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Hoping everything goes Snute's way ths time!
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hell yeah Snute fighting!
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well, technically TL is half EU and half US... so Snute fighting for FREEEEEDOOM!
//edit: on top of that - against Korean Aggressors!
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and  Snute leading the way for American StarCraft!
wasn't it the other way around
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United States97276 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:58 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! wasn't it the other way around
I changed my mind because isn't coL Canadian? and TL has hq in NY
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France9034 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft!
I feel you.... :/
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On April 30 2013 22:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:58 opterown wrote:On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! wasn't it the other way around I changed my mind because isn't coL Canadian? and TL has hq in NY
I think both of the Jason's who own Complexity are US born and raised. If you are doing it based on team, that is.
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United States97276 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:On April 30 2013 22:58 opterown wrote:On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! wasn't it the other way around I changed my mind because isn't coL Canadian? and TL has hq in NY I think both of the Jason's who own Complexity are US born and raised. If you are doing it based on team, that is.
then both Americans it is!
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Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:13 Surili wrote:
Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america?
he's canadian now
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On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft!
USA USA!
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How is Snute playing in WCS America if he's norwegian?
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United States97276 Posts
I can only hope this is from me throwing out flags in the LR thread
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Snute looked really impressive last night, and frankly scary to face as a Terran. I expect to see his aggressive ling style of denying the 3rd more often on the ladder now lol. TheSTC didn't look that strong actually, I felt like both vibe and Snute let him get away. Theognis didn't look very good at all except for a few games, hopefully he finds more sucess in Code A, I think it was his first big time match?
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On April 30 2013 22:16 Dirkzor wrote:
Any of the matches worth watching?
Not really. STC played really poorly, and the Americans didn't play much better. Both Vibe and Snute came very close to beating STC.
Vibe vs Theognis was fun to watch from a "they know each other so well" standpoint, but none of the other games were anything I'd watch again.
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Russian Federation367 Posts
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On April 30 2013 23:16 Nvar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! USA USA!
Hilarious and sad at the same time :D
Ah, whatever. Merica, fuck yeah!
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On April 30 2013 22:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:58 opterown wrote:On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! wasn't it the other way around I changed my mind because isn't coL Canadian? and TL has hq in NY
the site has hq in NY. The TL team is listed as a EU team.
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On April 30 2013 23:13 Surili wrote:
Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america?
Easy money brother. 
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United States97276 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:54 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:On April 30 2013 22:58 opterown wrote:On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft! wasn't it the other way around I changed my mind because isn't coL Canadian? and TL has hq in NY the site has hq in NY. The TL team is listed as a EU team.
ah well i'll just switch him back to Canadian. he seemed content with that on twitter
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On April 30 2013 23:13 Surili wrote:
Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america?
Same reasons koreans are competing there, I guess: easy money 
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On May 01 2013 00:01 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:13 Surili wrote:
Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america? Same reasons koreans are competing there, I guess: easy money
I'm confused because Liquid said they were playing in America, but Ret is still playing WCS Europe. Why did Snute go to America over Europe, while Ret chose not to do so?
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The confusion will be lifted when Eagle-Crank represents the US of A.
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@Boanerges: It's a joke...
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On May 01 2013 00:13 Thor.Rush wrote:
@Boanerges: It's a joke...
Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
User was banned for this post.
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On May 01 2013 00:19 Boanerges wrote:Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
No it's a joke not based on their skill level or anything, its a play on the tournament being an American based tournament being dominated by non-Americans, so we are now calling TheStC and Snute honorary "Americans".
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On May 01 2013 00:19 Boanerges wrote:Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
Some people have brains in their heads that are capable of understanding humour.
I'd think both of them are in that category.
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On April 30 2013 22:51 Shellshock1122 wrote: TheStC and Snute leading the way for American StarCraft!
Basically, this.
Snute winning is pretty good though. Was hoping for ViBE and Snute. ViBE didn't look bad against theSTC in his games.
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On May 01 2013 00:19 Boanerges wrote:Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
Please stop simultaneously insulting a country and missing the joke :|
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On May 01 2013 00:19 Boanerges wrote:Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
You're trying to hard. The only one taking this seriously is you.
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 theognisyung and Vibuuuu down, the invader is being repelled.
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/ro.png) Boanerges
Haha I love when tired old jokes find unique and funny ways to pop back up
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On May 01 2013 00:30 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: theognisyung and Vibuuuu down, the invader is being repelled.
THAT'S SO META
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges This made my day.
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On May 01 2013 00:19 Boanerges wrote:Ahhhh, so it's because they have no player with Skill's, they add this Flags... isn't this a bit insulting to TheSTC and Snute? A very silly and desperate thing to do :r
Relax it's a long running gag on TL Probably seem strange and not funny to new eyes I admit
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges
Shoulda put the Swedish flag since Sweden = Switzerland but ya, I still laughed.
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges
This thread is gold ahaha. xD
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On May 01 2013 00:44 Thor.Rush wrote:Shoulda put the Swedish flag since Sweden = Switzerland but ya, I still laughed.
Someone clearly doesn't know the Romanian joke... 
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Watched the games last night, not that impressed with the quality of production. One would expect more with the "Premier" Starcraft 2 league...
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The only NA player I can definitely see making it out of the group stages is Scarlett, and she has injury problems so I am not even sure if she is going through with WCS? Huk should also make it out of group but he seems like a kinda inconsistent player so I am not sure with him :/ Overall go team USA!
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Sorry if this has already been discussed but I don't get it. Why is it called WCS America?
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well that was expected ^^
gg wp snute and stc
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On May 01 2013 01:20 aTnClouD wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I don't get it. Why is it called WCS America?
Because the games and studio are in NA. Why in the National Hockey League called that the National Hockey league when it has players from Europe and Canada? There is nothing national about it.
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges
HAHA, this is the best post I've seen in a long time!
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3815 Posts
I honestly found the games pretty embarrassingly bad, but maybe that's because I've been watching DH/GSL...
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A bit disappointed by theognis performance....
Congratz to Snute !
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On May 01 2013 01:16 Torrnado wrote:
Watched the games last night, not that impressed with the quality of production. One would expect more with the "Premier" Starcraft 2 league...
Had a bit of lag durring the vibe/stc game 2 but other than that the stream was great. Production also seemed pretty good to me. Don't know what parts you didn't like, but generic complaining about "production" is so overused these days it carries almost no meaning to me anymore.
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see this is why I cant get behind this idea. the AMERICAN qualifiers had snute and thestc advancing, and, brace yourself everyone, NEITHER of them are american. what exactly is the point of regional qualifiers here??
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I'd love for someone to point out anything new from previous online MLG content, of course the casting is terrible as it always has been for the online content of MLG.
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On May 01 2013 01:41 Aveng3r wrote:
see this is why I cant get behind this idea. the AMERICAN qualifiers had snute and thestc advancing, and, brace yourself everyone, NEITHER of them are american. what exactly is the point of regional qualifiers here??
We still have State, Goswer, hellokitty, Suppy, illusion, minigun and IdrA left. My heart tells me one of them will get through. Although all my other senses tells me otherwise 
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On May 01 2013 01:20 aTnClouD wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I don't get it. Why is it called WCS America?
Oh you troll, you...
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On May 01 2013 01:55 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 01:41 Aveng3r wrote:
see this is why I cant get behind this idea. the AMERICAN qualifiers had snute and thestc advancing, and, brace yourself everyone, NEITHER of them are american. what exactly is the point of regional qualifiers here?? We still have State, Goswer, hellokitty, Suppy, illusion, minigun and IdrA left. My heart tells me one of them will get through. Although all my other senses tells me otherwise
America =/= USA
WCS America is the tournament in the Americas, which consists of North America, Central America and South America.
I can list a few more players that are American, but not a United States of America resident.
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United States97276 Posts
On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges
hahahaha just saw this. nice. So what nationalities are NesTea and Apocalypse? I can't quite remember for some reason
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On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges
This. Is. Awesome.
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Canada1169 Posts
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On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way.
You don't understand economics at all. A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors... sponsors may allow the prize pool to be made bigger...
On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:
There is no product being provided to the player or exchange of goods for services. Adam Smith would not approve of your theory.
There is a product being provided, high level SC2 games. The consumer is the fans, not the players. The prize pool is how the players get paid for their services, the better they perform, the more they get paid.
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Cool the invasion was a success! Its very niceeeee
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On May 01 2013 05:23 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You don't understand economics at all. A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors...
BroneKnee, stop editing my posts to serve your point. I am talking about the concept of the Free Market, created by Adam Smith
On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. There is no product being provided to the player or exchange of goods for services. Adam Smith would not approve of your theory. If anything, Blizzard is attempting to have a promote a skilled player pool in each time zone. Basing the prize pool on the projected skill of the players is very silly when anyone from any region can compete in the event. Also, if you knock down the prize pool based on the community's perception of the skill level of the player pool, the high skilled players will simply move to a different region the community believe that the skill level is higher.
I made a number of other points in that post and if you don't want to respond to those, don't respond at all. I agree with the points you made later in the post that the money promotes players moving to different regions, so I am even sure what you are trying to say.
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On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:23 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You don't understand economics at all. A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors... BroneKnee, stop editing my posts to serve your point. I am talking about the concept of the Free Market, created by Adam Smith Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. There is no product being provided to the player or exchange of goods for services. Adam Smith would not approve of your theory. If anything, Blizzard is attempting to have a promote a skilled player pool in each time zone. Basing the prize pool on the projected skill of the players is very silly when anyone from any region can compete in the event. Also, if you knock down the prize pool based on the community's perception of the skill level of the player pool, the high skilled players will simply move to a different region the community believe that the skill level is higher. I made a number of other points in that post and if you don't want to respond to those, don't respond at all. I agree with the points later in the post that the money promotes players moving to different regions, so I am even sure what you are trying to say.
I'm not editing your post. What you said was not a valid statement: "Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way"? Prize Pools are tied to the free market in every way. I didn't even take your quote out of context and I'll respond to the bold part now.
Tell me, why is Blizzard attempting to promote a skilled player pool? Let's think about... do you really think it has nothing to do with Blizzard wanting to make more money? No, they want to a create a skilled player pool to advance their game and attract fans who pay to watch those games and sponsors.
Remember, the rest of what I said: "A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors..."
So a big prize pool attracts and develops good players, who attracts fans who pay for the product and fans attracts sponsors that pay for the prize pool. And Blizzard takes a cut of it all..
This entire endeavor, E-Sports is about making money. They do so by producing games people want to watch and get excited about. Just like the NFL, or NBA, Boxing, ect... It is entirely driven by the free market.
Blizzard is investing in E-Sports with their prize pools to develop players to attract paying fans that will attract sponsors ect... they expect a return on this, Blizzard isn't a charity.
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On May 01 2013 05:35 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:23 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You don't understand economics at all. A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors... BroneKnee, stop editing my posts to serve your point. I am talking about the concept of the Free Market, created by Adam Smith On April 30 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. There is no product being provided to the player or exchange of goods for services. Adam Smith would not approve of your theory. If anything, Blizzard is attempting to have a promote a skilled player pool in each time zone. Basing the prize pool on the projected skill of the players is very silly when anyone from any region can compete in the event. Also, if you knock down the prize pool based on the community's perception of the skill level of the player pool, the high skilled players will simply move to a different region the community believe that the skill level is higher. I made a number of other points in that post and if you don't want to respond to those, don't respond at all. I agree with the points later in the post that the money promotes players moving to different regions, so I am even sure what you are trying to say. I'm not editing your post. What you said is not a valid statement: "Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way"? Prize Pools are tied to the free market in every way. Tell me, why is Blizzard attempting to promote a skilled player pool? Let's think about... do you really think it has nothing to do with Blizzard wanting to make more money is economically driven? Remember, the rest of what I said: A big prize pool attracts good players, which attracts fans, and those fans attract sponsors...So a big prize pool attracts good players, who attracts fans, who attracts sponsors that pay for the prize pool. And Blizzard takes a cut of it all.. This entire endeavor, E-Sports is about making money. They do so by producing games people want to watch and get excited about. Just like the NFL, or NBA, Boxing, ect... It is entirely driven by the free market.
Removing things from a post counts as editing. Removing things I say later on because you only want to respond to one sentence is editing the post to benefit your point. It's called quoting out of context, cite a single sentence or part of a sentence without the rest of the paragraph to distort its intended meaning.
I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. The prize pool itself is not a product or a service and no prize pool in any sport is reflective the amount of effort used to obtain it. The process of setting the prize pool not the same process as setting the price of a pair of shoes.
The prize pool and money make promote actions and affect the market for players and where they decide to play. I never argued that was not true. I also provided reasons why Blizzard and the leagues would want a level prize pool across the regions.
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Like anyone is even remotely surprised by who advanced here.
Right..
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Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament.
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On May 01 2013 01:55 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 01:41 Aveng3r wrote:
see this is why I cant get behind this idea. the AMERICAN qualifiers had snute and thestc advancing, and, brace yourself everyone, NEITHER of them are american. what exactly is the point of regional qualifiers here?? We still have State, Goswer, hellokitty, Suppy, illusion, minigun and IdrA left. My heart tells me one of them will get through. Although all my other senses tells me otherwise
if we are lucky than one of them will make it through the american qualifiers, I agree with you here
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On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament.
The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up.
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You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing.
To illustrate this, please quote me out of context.
Let's take a look at what you said...
I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed.
I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you...
On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way.
You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically.
Either way, it doesn't matter, both arguments you made are invalid. Prize pools are set by the free market. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports.
They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works. Blizzard is free in the market to set the prize pool to whatever point it thinks it can make the most money, provided they afford said point. Blizzard did exactly that, they would be stupid not too. In this case, this is a long term investment.
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On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up.
By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in.
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On May 01 2013 05:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up. By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in.
Yes, it is very likely going to change. We already get to see Koreans in the GSL and Proleague, we don't need to see them in WCS America too. I for one, want to see the American scene and European scene without Koreans.
I'd certainly watch more WCS if that was the case.
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United States97276 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up. By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in.
I thought I read somewhere that this was already the plan. Something about how these first few seasons were supposed to entice teams to set up houses in other regions and next year the whole tournament was going to be played offline. Dont 100% remember where I read that, though.
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On May 01 2013 05:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up. By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in.
Once the round of 32 and challengers division become an in studio broadcast, they won't need a residency rule. The fact that the players will be expected to show up weekly will solve that problem. It will also remove a lot of the players who aren't committed to the playing, because they simply won't move.
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On May 01 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up. By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in. Once the round of 32 and challengers division become an in studio broadcast, they won't need a residency rule. The fact that the players will be expected to show up weekly will solve that problem. It will also remove a lot of the players who aren't committed to the playing, because they simply won't move.
That's fine too, provided we don't see Koreans moving en masse to the USA in order to play WCS NA.
Basically WCS should exist to promote local talent. I have no issue with the odd Korean or European living elsewhere and therefore helping out the local scene (eg. Demuslim, ForGG, Polt, Violet, Select etc...) but the overwhelming majority should be players who are citizens of the region in question.
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On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... Show nested quote +I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless.
Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over.
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Not really spoilers in my opinion. :p
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On May 01 2013 06:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament. The qualification process will likely take care of that process if that is true. I am sure after a season or two we will have a very different line up. By the end of the year I expect it will basically become so bad than Blizzard will be forced to put a residency rule in. Once the round of 32 and challengers division become an in studio broadcast, they won't need a residency rule. The fact that the players will be expected to show up weekly will solve that problem. It will also remove a lot of the players who aren't committed to the playing, because they simply won't move. That's fine too, provided we don't see Koreans moving en masse to the USA in order to play WCS NA. Basically WCS should exist to promote local talent. I have no issue with the odd Korean or European living elsewhere and therefore helping out the local scene (eg. Demuslim, ForGG, Polt, Violet, Select etc...) but the overwhelming majority should be players who are citizens of the region in question.
Clearly, and I doubt that a lot of Korean players are going to come over on mass to play in WCS America. I mean, look at Korea and how many non-Koreans live there. I don't expect them to move en masse to NA for any reason. We might get a few more Polts and MCs(who is in EU), but that is about it.
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Congratulations to Snute and TheStC!
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Snute came VERY close to beating TheStC, glad he qualified too!
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On May 01 2013 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Neither of them should be allowed to play in this tournament.
This is funny to me because you, for the longest time, have been promoting the "lmao foreigner pros are shit" attitude.
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All this talk about free markets and communism in this situation really shows a profound misunderstanding of those concepts. Those concepts have nothing to do with this topic. Blizzard is not the State. What Blizzard does with their money is their decision. In a free market people do with their money what they want, and they enter in contracts with others as they choose, and that is all that has happened here. It's rather funny that some want to dictate how a company should spend their own money, and then claim they want to do that in the name of Free Markets. People are so full of random hate towards Blizzard that they'll make/defend any argument, so long as it supports the dogma: "Blizzard is evil/wrong about everything".
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On May 01 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless. Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over.
I argue like this on the internet, because this is the internet. I do enjoy debating in real life greatly, but that has nothing to do with this.
The free market is far more than pricing of retail products or basic services.
Take stocks for example. The stock price itself it based purely on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a stock, the lower the supply and the higher the price goes. Simple economics.
But what about the decision to buy a stock... that is where it becomes complex. Obviously, if you knew what each stock going to do in value, you'd put all you money into the stock that was going to make you the most money, and only that stock.
But people generally don't do that, because no one can say with certainty what each stock is going to do in value. So we spread out our portfolios to mitigate risk. That decision is related to supply and demand in some ways(related in that you might not buy a stock that you think will do well because the demand for it is high, and thus the price is more than you can afford or in the sense that you believe the future demand for a stock will increase, and thus it's price will increase) but supply and demand isn't the be all end all there. Yet, you can make different decisions in the free market because it is unhindered by external regulation or control by the government. No one is telling what stocks you must buy or can't buy.
And thus, the decision about whether or not to buy a stock, (which is connected the free market) is analogous to what Blizzard is doing here with prize pools. Blizzard is free and unhindered by external regulation or control by the government, to feed E-Sports with high prize pools, with the belief that these prize pools will ultimately lead them to make more money in the end by developing a better player base which in turn makes the game more fun to watch.
Blizzard is investing as much as money as they are believe is necessary (up to the point they can afford) to make as much money as possible, and they free to do so. They believe they can create a higher demand for E-Sports with this action, because they believe the action of creating bigger prize pools will result in a better product.
The piece about comparing the government to Blizzard, and the competitors to companies under a government is an interesting comparison, and goes far in showing that the beliefs of capitalism and the free market are incredibly flawed.
This has become overly complex. The entire point of this argument was to show that the free market controls prize pools. While you haven't outright admitted that it was a poor choice of words on your part, I believe I've shown that.
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On May 01 2013 07:41 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless. Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over. I argue like this on the internet, because this is the internet. I do enjoy debating in real life greatly, but that has nothing to do with this. The free market is far more than pricing of retail products or basic services. Take stocks for example. The stock price itself it based purely on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a stock, the lower the supply and the higher the price goes. Simple economics. But what about the decision to buy a stock... that is where it becomes complex. Obviously, if you knew what each stock going to do in value, you'd put all you money into the stock that was going to make you the most money, and only that stock. But people generally don't do that, because no one can say with certainty what each stock is going to do in value. So we spread out our portfolios to mitigate risk. That decision is related to supply and demand in some ways(related in that you might not buy a stock that you think will do well because the demand for it is high, and thus the price is more than you can afford or in the sense that you believe the future demand for a stock will increase, and thus it's price will increase) but supply and demand isn't the be all end all there. Yet, you can make different decisions in the free market because it is unhindered by external regulation or control by the government. No one is telling what stocks you must buy or can't buy. And thus, the decision about whether or not to buy a stock, (which is connected the free market) is analogous to what Blizzard is doing here with prize pools. Blizzard is free and unhindered by external regulation or control by the government, to feed E-Sports with high prize pools, with the belief that these prize pools will ultimately lead them to make more money in the end by developing a better player base which in turn makes the game more fun to watch. Blizzard is investing as much as money as they are believe is necessary (up to the point they can afford) to make as much money as possible, and they free to do so. They believe they can create a higher demand for E-Sports with this action. This has become overly complex. The entire point of this argument was to show that the free market controls prize pools. While you haven't outright admitted that it was a poor choice of words on your part, I believe I've shown that.
So its blizzards project where they dump what they deem an appropiate ammount of funds, which shows that prize pools are a free market?
Big mouth, lots of side examples, little substance!
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On May 01 2013 08:01 Nuzoybot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless. Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over. I argue like this on the internet, because this is the internet. I do enjoy debating in real life greatly, but that has nothing to do with this. The free market is far more than pricing of retail products or basic services. Take stocks for example. The stock price itself it based purely on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a stock, the lower the supply and the higher the price goes. Simple economics. But what about the decision to buy a stock... that is where it becomes complex. Obviously, if you knew what each stock going to do in value, you'd put all you money into the stock that was going to make you the most money, and only that stock. But people generally don't do that, because no one can say with certainty what each stock is going to do in value. So we spread out our portfolios to mitigate risk. That decision is related to supply and demand in some ways(related in that you might not buy a stock that you think will do well because the demand for it is high, and thus the price is more than you can afford or in the sense that you believe the future demand for a stock will increase, and thus it's price will increase) but supply and demand isn't the be all end all there. Yet, you can make different decisions in the free market because it is unhindered by external regulation or control by the government. No one is telling what stocks you must buy or can't buy. And thus, the decision about whether or not to buy a stock, (which is connected the free market) is analogous to what Blizzard is doing here with prize pools. Blizzard is free and unhindered by external regulation or control by the government, to feed E-Sports with high prize pools, with the belief that these prize pools will ultimately lead them to make more money in the end by developing a better player base which in turn makes the game more fun to watch. Blizzard is investing as much as money as they are believe is necessary (up to the point they can afford) to make as much money as possible, and they free to do so. They believe they can create a higher demand for E-Sports with this action. This has become overly complex. The entire point of this argument was to show that the free market controls prize pools. While you haven't outright admitted that it was a poor choice of words on your part, I believe I've shown that. So its blizzards project where they dump what they deem an appropiate ammount of funds, which shows that prize pools are a free market? Big mouth, lots of side examples, little substance!
You got it wrong. Read it again. Prize Pools are the result of a free market where people can dump what they deem an appropriate amount of funds into.
Actually, I think we are just arguing about different things and I'd like to apologize for my involvement in this twisted conversation.
It all started with this: On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition.
I agree with Plansix that this is a foolish comparison but my reason is because Blizzard can improve the market greatly without free competition. In other words, E-Sports is not dependent on free competition to succeed as many people argue that markets are (as poorcloud suggests). However, I disagree with most of Plansix reasoning, but I agree with some of his conclusion. And thus it lead to a strange argument where I was reaching the same conclusion partly, but by different means (that is actually kind of neat). Blizzard is simply trying to promote it's game as it should as Plansix was stating, and it in doing so it is controlling the prize pool market, which Plansix doesn't believe is happening, because he doesn't believe they are driven by supply and demand economics, yet I believe they are as poorcloud suggest. On the other hand Plansix is right in that in end the this will result in a better overall player pool skill wise.
And I will say that this kind of thing happens all the time in business. It is part of the free market.
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On May 01 2013 08:03 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:01 Nuzoybot wrote:On May 01 2013 07:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless. Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over. I argue like this on the internet, because this is the internet. I do enjoy debating in real life greatly, but that has nothing to do with this. The free market is far more than pricing of retail products or basic services. Take stocks for example. The stock price itself it based purely on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a stock, the lower the supply and the higher the price goes. Simple economics. But what about the decision to buy a stock... that is where it becomes complex. Obviously, if you knew what each stock going to do in value, you'd put all you money into the stock that was going to make you the most money, and only that stock. But people generally don't do that, because no one can say with certainty what each stock is going to do in value. So we spread out our portfolios to mitigate risk. That decision is related to supply and demand in some ways(related in that you might not buy a stock that you think will do well because the demand for it is high, and thus the price is more than you can afford or in the sense that you believe the future demand for a stock will increase, and thus it's price will increase) but supply and demand isn't the be all end all there. Yet, you can make different decisions in the free market because it is unhindered by external regulation or control by the government. No one is telling what stocks you must buy or can't buy. And thus, the decision about whether or not to buy a stock, (which is connected the free market) is analogous to what Blizzard is doing here with prize pools. Blizzard is free and unhindered by external regulation or control by the government, to feed E-Sports with high prize pools, with the belief that these prize pools will ultimately lead them to make more money in the end by developing a better player base which in turn makes the game more fun to watch. Blizzard is investing as much as money as they are believe is necessary (up to the point they can afford) to make as much money as possible, and they free to do so. They believe they can create a higher demand for E-Sports with this action. This has become overly complex. The entire point of this argument was to show that the free market controls prize pools. While you haven't outright admitted that it was a poor choice of words on your part, I believe I've shown that. So its blizzards project where they dump what they deem an appropiate ammount of funds, which shows that prize pools are a free market? Big mouth, lots of side examples, little substance! You got it wrong. Read it again. Prize Pools are the result of a free market where people can dump what they deem an appropriate amount of funds into. Actually, I think we are just arguing about different things and I'd like to apologize for my involvement in this twisted conversation. It all started with this: Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. I agree with Plansix that this is a foolish comparison. However, I disagree with his reasoning (there is a product being provided to the player, money, in exchange for his ability to play the game), but I agree with his conclusion. And thus it lead to a strange argument where I was reaching the same conclusion, but by different means. Blizzard is simply trying to promote it's game as it should as Plansix was stating. And I will say that this kind of thing happens all the time in business. It is part of the free market.
A) Free market = an economic system in which prices are determined by competition between privately owned businesses = open market
B) When there is a single supplier (blizzard) or monopolist, the different tournaments are product diversification not competition.
C) tournaments dont compete in terms of price pool, MLG has shown that in the past, and IPL went broke trying to.
For future reference: google define the term you are discussing, before telling other ppl they are wrong
Gg no re
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You should probably practice what you preach and Google the terms.
A is wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
"A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies"
Prices are set based on supply and demand in a free market, not competition. Huge difference. You don't need competition to set prices based on and supply and demand. Note, that no competition doesn't mean there is necessarily a monopoly is present! There can be lots of companies that sell said product, but if the supply is low, the price is going to be high regardless of competition, and may not even depend on competition at all.
To illustrate the difference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
"Early forms of market socialism consisted of proposals for cooperative enterprises operating in a free-market economy, so that exploitation would be eliminated and individuals would receive the full product of their labor. "
Also individual compete and help set prices, not just businesses.
Google B and C too, the logic behind them is wrong. Tournaments certainly compete in terms of prize pool. But that doesn't mean having a larger or smaller prize pool is necessarily worse or better.
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It seems to me that a lot of people have not really understood the actual purpose of the new WCS scheme. I understand people in North America wanting WCS to be a regional competition to foster local talent. Maybe for this reason, with the WCS America announcement, many jumped to the conclusion that this was Blizzard's attempt to improve the North American scene... so much that if you read most of the posts they still call it "WCS NA" instead of "WCS America".
One thing is what you wanted WCS America to be. Another thing is what WCS America is meant to be. Based on Blizzard's view (which I base on their CM's words during the last episode of State of the Game), their main aims with WCS are to grow the sport globally (World > USA) and to create a unique storyline for a better viewer experience.
The best way to have an easy to follow storyline is to have an ongoing league (vs random tournaments). It turns out that league already existed and it was called GSL. However, even though GSL receives any players with open arms, it's not practically accessible to foreign players.
Their next step: expand GSL to allow more players and to make it more accessible around the world. Obviously the ideal would be having one league per country, but I can see that at the moment that would not be sustainable. Thus, we have three regions which are meant to accommodate players around the globe: WCS KR, WCS EU, WCS AM. Their names only indicate where they are located, they do not imply any kind of restrictions on the participants (same as GSL).
Obviously there is still a huge gap for tournaments or leagues which foster regional talent. But, in my humble opinion, that is the responsibility of each region's community and not Blizzard's (at least at the moment). What we need is less people complaining that WCS should be for NA and more people with initiatives like TotalBiscuit's ShoutCraft: promoting regional competition to foster local talent and improve the legitimacy of each ladder.
On a side note, even if regional competition is not the main goal of WCS, I am almost confident that once the leagues start becoming offline, as is clearly Blizzard's intent, these leagues will in fact feel like regional competitions. In the same way not many foreigners are willing to commit and move to Korea to play GSL, not many Koreans will be willing to leave their country, their culture, and abandon the dreams of participating in GSL. And, even if some do, they will be entirely participating in the American scene, enriching the ladder and improving the level of games (like Messi does for the Spanish League).
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On May 01 2013 01:15 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:44 Thor.Rush wrote:On May 01 2013 00:26 Rostam wrote: TheStC Snute Boanerges Shoulda put the Swedish flag since Sweden = Switzerland but ya, I still laughed. Someone clearly doesn't know the Romanian joke...
I'm new here so I don't know either... and now I'm really curious
Anyone cares to explain this to a TL noob? Or link me to the proper thread?
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On May 01 2013 08:54 Asfer wrote:
It seems to me that a lot of people have not really understood the actual purpose of the new WSC scheme. I understand people in North America wanting WCS to be a regional competition to foster local talent. Maybe for this reason, with the WCS America announcement, many jumped to the conclusion that this was Blizzard's attempt to improve the North American scene... so much that if you read most of the posts they still call it "WCS NA" instead of "WCS America".
One thing is what you wanted WCS America to be. Another thing is what WCS America is meant to be. Based on Blizzard's view (which I base on their CM's words during the last episode of State of the Game), their main aims with WCS are to grow the sport globally (World > USA) and to create a unique storyline for a better viewer experience.
The best way to have an easy to follow storyline is to have an ongoing league (vs random tournaments). It turns out that league already existed and it was called GSL. However, even though GSL receives any players with open arms, it's not practically accessible to foreign players.
Their next step: expand GSL to allow more players and to make it more accessible around the world. Obviously the ideal would be having one league per country, but I can see that at the moment that would not be sustainable. Thus, we have three regions which are meant to accommodate players around the globe: WCS KR, WCS EU, WCS AM. Their names only indicate where they are located, they do not imply any kind of restrictions on the participants (same as GSL).
Obviously there is still a huge gap for tournaments or leagues which foster regional talent. But, in my humble opinion, that is the responsibility of each region's community and not Blizzard's (at least at the moment). What we need is less people complaining that WCS should be for NA and more people with initiatives like TotalBiscuit's ShoutCraft: promoting regional competition to foster local talent and improve the legitimacy of each ladder.
On a side note, even if regional competition is not the main goal of WCS, I am almost confident that once the leagues start becoming offline, as is clearly Blizzard's intent, these leagues will in fact feel like regional competitions. In the same way not many foreigners are willing to commit and move to Korea to play GSL, not many Koreans will be willing to leave their country, their culture, and abandon the dreams of participating in GSL. And, even if some do, they will be entirely participating in the American scene, enriching the ladder and improving the level of games (like Messi does for the Spanish League).
This might be the best 5 posts post on this forum. I agree 100%.
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On May 01 2013 08:54 Asfer wrote:
Obviously there is still a huge gap for tournaments or leagues which foster regional talent. But, in my humble opinion, that is the responsibility of each region's community and not Blizzard's (at least at the moment). What we need is less people complaining that WCS should be for NA and more people with initiatives like TotalBiscuit's ShoutCraft: promoting regional competition to foster local talent and improve the legitimacy of each ladder.
On a side note, even if regional competition is not the main goal of WCS, I am almost confident that once the leagues start becoming offline, as is clearly Blizzard's intent, these leagues will in fact feel like regional competitions. In the same way not many foreigners are willing to commit and move to Korea to play GSL, not many Koreans will be willing to leave their country, their culture, and abandon the dreams of participating in GSL. And, even if some do, they will be entirely participating in the American scene, enriching the ladder and improving the level of games (like Messi does for the Spanish League).
Here is the issue though, I watch the Koreans in the GSL and Proleague. I enjoy watching them play.
I also enjoy watching players other parts of the world compete, not just against Koreans, but against each other.
This new WCS format means I'll be seeing a lot more Koreans and less foreigners (especially in WCS America) in the short term which reduces my interest in watching SC2 in general, because the variety of the product has been reduced. The result is that it may end damaging the foreign scene in the long term as foreigners like me now are less interested, and thus we are even farther away from the goal that Blizzard wants, which is enticing regional competitions that lead up to a global finale. I know I would watch more WCS if it there were more foreigners, especially if foreigners versus Koreans weren't an everyday occurrence. The novelty of it makes it interesting, and it why I enjoy the World Cup so much more than any regional soccer league, where people from all over the world play.
So it seems like a very risky move that Blizzard is making to me. Hopefully, in the end you are right and people will devote themselves to the regions they live in as the tournaments move offline. But I'm worried about the moves they are making to get there will actually put them farther away from their goal as Koreans take over these regional tournaments in short term, and drive people from these regions away from wanting to compete or watch.
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On May 01 2013 08:28 Nuzoybot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:03 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2013 08:01 Nuzoybot wrote:On May 01 2013 07:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 05:52 BronzeKnee wrote:You're making basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism, mistaking who are the consumers (fans) and who are the providers (players and organizations). You're also making a mistake with your writing. Each statement you write should be valid and should stand on it's own, unless it is sarcasm, in which case it should be obvious sarcasm even if someone quote it alone. That is a good writing. To illustrate this, please quote me out of context. Let's take a look at what you said... I didn't say that prize pools were removed from the free market. I said they are not set by the free market, which is detailed in the parts you removed. I don't think you said that earlier. In fact let me quote you... On May 01 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:
Prize pools have nothing to do with a free market in any way. You were quite clear they have nothing to do with the free market in any way. Now you're just dancing around semantically. Either way, it doesn't matter. Blizzard is investing in E-Sports because they expect a return, that is how the free market works. When you put stock into a company, you think that company can use your money to make even more and money, and you think that company is going to do well. This is exactly the same to Blizzard's investment into E-Sports. They believe that higher prize pools will result in better players and more fans which means more money and sponsors for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have raised the prize pools in the first place. Blizzard believes this WCS thing is going to work out, and is backing it with it's money, the same way someone backs Google with the money by buying stock.
That is how the free market works.
Do you argue like this in real life? Jump on one sentence in a whole paragraph and then talk down to the person, using phrases like "basic mistakes in your understanding of capitalism"? I am citing Adam Smith, who coined the phrase "free market", so maybe I might not be totally clueless. Once again, I stated that the way prize pools are set is not done in the same way that a pair of shoes are priced. Prize pools are not a retail product and the amount they are worth is not reflective of the amount of work put in. The post I was responding to stated that Blizzard was trying to "control the market", which is a silly thing to say. There is no prize pool market that Blizzard is controlling or leagues are fighting over. I argue like this on the internet, because this is the internet. I do enjoy debating in real life greatly, but that has nothing to do with this. The free market is far more than pricing of retail products or basic services. Take stocks for example. The stock price itself it based purely on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a stock, the lower the supply and the higher the price goes. Simple economics. But what about the decision to buy a stock... that is where it becomes complex. Obviously, if you knew what each stock going to do in value, you'd put all you money into the stock that was going to make you the most money, and only that stock. But people generally don't do that, because no one can say with certainty what each stock is going to do in value. So we spread out our portfolios to mitigate risk. That decision is related to supply and demand in some ways(related in that you might not buy a stock that you think will do well because the demand for it is high, and thus the price is more than you can afford or in the sense that you believe the future demand for a stock will increase, and thus it's price will increase) but supply and demand isn't the be all end all there. Yet, you can make different decisions in the free market because it is unhindered by external regulation or control by the government. No one is telling what stocks you must buy or can't buy. And thus, the decision about whether or not to buy a stock, (which is connected the free market) is analogous to what Blizzard is doing here with prize pools. Blizzard is free and unhindered by external regulation or control by the government, to feed E-Sports with high prize pools, with the belief that these prize pools will ultimately lead them to make more money in the end by developing a better player base which in turn makes the game more fun to watch. Blizzard is investing as much as money as they are believe is necessary (up to the point they can afford) to make as much money as possible, and they free to do so. They believe they can create a higher demand for E-Sports with this action. This has become overly complex. The entire point of this argument was to show that the free market controls prize pools. While you haven't outright admitted that it was a poor choice of words on your part, I believe I've shown that. So its blizzards project where they dump what they deem an appropiate ammount of funds, which shows that prize pools are a free market? Big mouth, lots of side examples, little substance! You got it wrong. Read it again. Prize Pools are the result of a free market where people can dump what they deem an appropriate amount of funds into. Actually, I think we are just arguing about different things and I'd like to apologize for my involvement in this twisted conversation. It all started with this: On April 30 2013 22:27 poorcloud wrote:
Isn't it weird that the quality of the competition in this tournament is evidently lower but the prize pool is the same???
It almost seems like Blizzard is trying to manipulate and regulate the market rather than allowing free competition. I agree with Plansix that this is a foolish comparison. However, I disagree with his reasoning (there is a product being provided to the player, money, in exchange for his ability to play the game), but I agree with his conclusion. And thus it lead to a strange argument where I was reaching the same conclusion, but by different means. Blizzard is simply trying to promote it's game as it should as Plansix was stating. And I will say that this kind of thing happens all the time in business. It is part of the free market. A) Free market = an economic system in which prices are determined by competition between privately owned businesses = open market B) When there is a single supplier (blizzard) or monopolist, the different tournaments are product diversification not competition. C) tournaments dont compete in terms of price pool, MLG has shown that in the past, and IPL went broke trying to. For future reference: google define the term you are discussing, before telling other ppl they are wrong Gg no re
That is not the definition of a free market
blizzard is not the only supplier of tournaments (!?!?!?!?) not sure where the hell you think you are going with that one, there are a number of independent suppliers of tournaments
*prize pool and no that is not the only reason ipl has not continued business operations in sc2 tournaments
for future reference, maybe YOU should google definition the terms you are using beforehand and
never gg no re again after making a stupid ass idiot out of yourself
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On May 01 2013 09:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:54 Asfer wrote:
Obviously there is still a huge gap for tournaments or leagues which foster regional talent. But, in my humble opinion, that is the responsibility of each region's community and not Blizzard's (at least at the moment). What we need is less people complaining that WCS should be for NA and more people with initiatives like TotalBiscuit's ShoutCraft: promoting regional competition to foster local talent and improve the legitimacy of each ladder.
On a side note, even if regional competition is not the main goal of WCS, I am almost confident that once the leagues start becoming offline, as is clearly Blizzard's intent, these leagues will in fact feel like regional competitions. In the same way not many foreigners are willing to commit and move to Korea to play GSL, not many Koreans will be willing to leave their country, their culture, and abandon the dreams of participating in GSL. And, even if some do, they will be entirely participating in the American scene, enriching the ladder and improving the level of games (like Messi does for the Spanish League). Here is the issue though, I watch the Koreans in the GSL and Proleague. I enjoy watching them play. I also enjoy watching players other parts of the world compete, not just against Koreans, but against each other. This new WCS format means I'll be seeing a lot more Koreans and less foreigners (especially in WCS America) in the short term which reduces my interest in watching SC2 in general, because the variety of the product has been reduced. The result is that it may end damaging the foreign scene in the long term as foreigners like me now are less interested, and thus we are even farther away from the goal that Blizzard wants, which is enticing regional competitions that lead up to a global finale. I know I would watch more WCS if it there were more foreigners, especially if foreigners versus Koreans weren't an everyday occurrence. The novelty of it makes it interesting, and it why I enjoy the World Cup so much more than any regional soccer league, where people from all over the world play. So it seems like a very risky move that Blizzard is making to me. Hopefully, in the end you are right and people will devote themselves to the regions they live in as the tournaments move offline. But I'm worried about the moves they are making to get there will actually put them farther away from their goal as Koreans take over these regional tournaments in short term, and drive people from this regions away from wanting to compete or watch.
All valid points, and yes it is a risk... but sometimes you have to take a few steps back to make a jump.
In regards to people loosing interest I guess if they haven't by now they can wait one or two seasons more. I'm pretty optimistic things will only get better. This season was pretty much a test case. As much as people complain about Blizzard I for one think they do listen to the community and will try to correct their short term course without compromising their ultimate goal.
Furthermore, even if we are still far from having fully offline leagues, the fact that from now on players have to commit to a region for the full year will make them think twice... but the truth is we will have to wait and see and help as we can.
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Clearly they were the better American players last night.
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Oh shit! I came here to talk about Starcraft - I seem to be in the wrong place...
On May 01 2013 09:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Clearly they were the better American players last night.
I agree. I really think they should have led with .... not Group F. Something like Group C or Group G to build up some more hype. the games looked sloppy to me :/
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Regardless of the current Immigration arguments right now, we need to make these guys, and any other Koreans that want in, citizens stat! USA!
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On May 01 2013 10:26 TheTreeKing wrote:Oh shit! I came here to talk about Starcraft - I seem to be in the wrong place... Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 09:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Clearly they were the better American players last night. I agree. I really think they should have led with .... not Group F. Something like Group C or Group G to build up some more hype. the games looked sloppy to me :/
EDIT: nvm
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I predicted right. Wasn't very difficult for this group.
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Is there a reason why results are spoilered in title?
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I was expecting theognis to do better hope he can come back through challenger league.
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On May 01 2013 00:01 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:13 Surili wrote:
Can someone tell me WHY snute is competing in america? Same reasons koreans are competing there, I guess: easy money
Now, I don't exactly know how the individual player power balances go right now on the EU ladder, but zerg IS struggling here..
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/smallbannermlgwcs.jpg)
coL.TheStC and 
Liquid`Snute advance to the Ro32 from Group F.
Snute..
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