Earlier this week, a few notable Chinese players were not included in the WCS NA Premier League qualifier bracket despite being some of the biggest names who registered. This sparked a controversy and plenty of outcry from both the Chinese and foreign communities. You can find discussion about the entire WCS NA qualifier on Teamliquid.net:
To give his take on the situation is iG.Edison, the coach of Invictus Gaming, who is also an important community figure in Chinese Starcraft scene. Invictus Gaming(iG) is the biggest and most notable team in China, home to two of the players who were excluded. iG is also the former team of Comm, the WCS 2012 China champion who was disqualified from WCS NA last weekend. Other notable excluded players include Warcraft III legend, Infi, and Comm's teammate, Ash. Special thanks to TL user, digmouse, for help with translation.
Can you summarize your take on the situation involving the WCS NA qualifiers?
At this point, Edison showed us the e-mail he sent to Blizzard regarding the situation:
Hello everyone, I'm Edison, coach and manager of Invictus Gaming's Starcraft II division. I want to show you the unfair treatment by Major League Gaming to Chinese Starcraft II progamers in WCS North America qualifiers.
1. All Chinese progamers registered into WCS NA well before 15th April, while a lot of Koreans register after 16th, well after the 512 player limit, yet almost all the Koreans get their spot in the qualifier, while famous Chinese players like iG.Jim (WCG 2012 China Nationals 3rd place), Comm (WCS 2012 China Nationals champion), iGXY (ESWC 2012 Chinese qualifier winner) and Infi (Warcraft III legend) didn't receive their spot despite they have superior results and notability. The rules of MLG states that the first 512 players to register are eligible to play in the qualifier and did not specify the reserved spots, if the matter is about late registration, the Koreans will not be able to play as well.
2. The Chinese players did ask the in-game MLG admin about a confirmation on bracket to see whether they are in, and received a "you are good to go" after providing corresponding MLG ids. Later the brackets were changed 3 times before the actual qualifier begins, which Chinese players questioned the admin again, who responded by saying this is not the final bracket. After the Chinese players found their absence in the bracket, they only get apologies from the admins, no reason was given. Other players questioned about this in the official MLG channel as well, but the MLG admins started kicking these people out for asking.
3. Severe lack of honesty in rule enforcement: First of all, the entire registration and check-in procedure is not reasonable, there were no gates like GSL Code A qualifers in which spots are reserved for progamers, players in Master and Grandmaster leagues and then rest players. This "openness" results in a lot of amateur and even low level players to participate in, and a lot of walkovers due to no-shows, which is greatly wasting resources. What's even worse is that there were even hackers as encountered by ROOTCatZ and other players, no explanation and actions were given. The eligibility of participants is also in chao. WCS Korea Season 1 GSL Code S participant QuanticHyuN, who is not eligible to play in Premier Division qualifier in WCS Season 1, played in the WCS NA qualifier. MLG DQed him after he knocked out 3 players, but after a shortwhile he returned to play in the loser's bracket, knocking out another 2 players before DQed for the second time. No further actions were taken, nor explanations were given to the players knocked out by HyuN. WCS 2012 China Nationals winner Comm was not able to get his qualifier spot due to the forementioned situation, and a amateur Chinese player gave his MLG id for him to play, this was a situation acknowledged by MLG admins, Comm's opponents and casters, no actions were given till Comm is about to play his final qualification match, which he was disqualified due to violation of rules. But Korean players AxCrank stated him advancing to WCS NA defeating Chinese player ZooTOP on his Twitter, and was confirmed by his team, which is also a direct violation of rules, but he is not disqualified because of this.
Did you try to talk to MLG beforehand to reserve spots? And were you in contact with MLG at all before the qualifiers?
I did talk with Blizzard China about securing spots in WCS NA, but it looks like they didn't pull it off.
It was my fault that JIm and XY didn't register until 15th. I misread the MLG GameBattle's system, thinking their "team" registration means we have to register as a team. I registered 'Invictus Gaming' on 12th when registering for MacSed, but didn't find our team later in their team system, I thought there might be update delays, so I waited 2 more days after that
Did you know MLG had reserved slots for players? Did you try contacting MLG beforehand about these spots or just through Blizzard China?
I didn't know about the reserved spots since it was not on the rules, and I wasn't told by Blizzard staff about this either. At my first meeting with Blizzard China, I did mention about securing qualifier spots. They told us to register ourselves and they'll see what they can help with.
By the way, when XiGua was playing in WCS EU qualifier, despite the massive latency, ESL was actively talking with us to see what they could do about it. On this part, I think MLG is way behind ESL.
How helpful was Blizzard China throughout this whole ordeal?
They helped a lot. I went to a meeting with them about tough things like travel and visa if our Chinese players actually made it through to see if they could offer any help. After the problems surfaced at WCS NA, I went to Blizzard China offices again. They are actively helping us submitting complaints to the esports department at the US headquarters.
If the two players who were barred from the qualifier (Jim and XY) were allowed to play, what do you think their chances of qualifying would be?
I can't say they are guaranteed to qualify, but as long there are a slim chance, we'll fight for it as hard as possible. Jim is currently top 20 in Korean GM, and XY is in top 100.
What do you think about the WCS 2013 system with AM/EU/KR regions, but not one that specifically includes China?
I was initially unhappy, even angry about the absence of WCS China. But after I calmed down, I realized it's not entirely Blizzard's fault that they don't have a WCS CN. First of all, HotS is not yet released in China. Secondly, we don't have a long-term stable league like MLG, IEM or GSL/SPL. But even though this is true, our Chinese players are looking forward to play in these tournaments all the time and we don't complain about latency or time difference. But even under these circumstances, we still took unfair treatment because of the lack of honestly of MLG. And because Sundance's apology didn't even mention a single word about Chinese players, we are truly hurt.
What would it mean for your team and also the Chinese scene as a whole if Chinese players couldn't compete in WCS?
Starcraft II in China is far from ideal. Like I previously said, there are no stable leagues to play in, and because of the early promotion and subscription model problem, we don't have a large player base. Because of this, there are not a lot of new players stepping it up and we are still relying on the old players. We need more Chinese progamers to play in major tournaments like WCS abroad to attract more attention. If we can't even play in WCS, a Blizzard official tournament, things are going to become harder and harder for us. There is one thing you need to know: last year we had 8 teams playing in a team league; now we are reduced to only 3 pro teams. And since a lot of Chinese players are students who play on campus networks, they prefer team games that can be played together like DotA or LoL.
Are there any lessons you can take away from this whole situation?
First of all, I need to improve my English. Also, never put your hope on others. No matter how busy you are, you have to confirm everything yourself to make sure everything is right in place. Though we have been trying out best to play in as many tournaments as we can, we are still troubled by things like visas. After this, we'll prepare better against this kind of situation and let the world know Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans. Our performance will show the results of our efforts.
Is there anything else you want to say to the foreign scene or foreign fans?
I want to thank all foreign fans for supporting us on Teamliquid, r/starcraft, and twitch chat after all these unhappy things happened. Because of your support, we will show you more great games to prove our skills and effort. This interview is not to bash MLG; we hope all tournaments could be more professional and mature, less frustrated by bias, whether economical or emotional, because fair play is the core element of e-sports. I just hope everyone will continue to support us and help us claim our deserved tournament rights. Thank all of you very much, we love you.
Good luck with future tournaments iG, it was sad to see your players didn't make it in because of this fiasco. Thanks to TL for the interview. We need to keep the pressure up.
This just makes me feel worse about the situation. These guys deserved to be able to play. It's extremely unfortunate that these problems had to occur. Edison is doing a good job trying to straighten things out and help get the true account of what happened out there. Thank you for the interview.
thanks to teamliquid for highlighting this interview, and helping the community to continue to keep pressure on MLG to fix this. Sundance's apology was completely unacceptable in that it lacked entirely any concrete steps to make things right.
this should not be esports, ashamed that our 'premier' league started out on this fraudulent basis.
That really sucks. It sounds like they did exactly what Blizzard told them to do and assumed Blizzard China was working with MLG to make sure they got slots. I will be willing to bet that Blizzard China didn't tell MLG anything. Hopefully something can be done to get those players into the challengers division qualifiers and make sure they have a change to play.
It really sucks that some really strong Chinese players didn't even get a chance to prove themselves. I also wish they would have let Comm play instead of the DQ but for consistency sake they had to.
About the reserving spots thing. I have no issue with it. ESL also had reserved spots but no one seems to care that they did (DeathAngel was included in the reserved list FYI) yet no one seemed to care. I do think MLG should have had AT LEAST comm on there reserved list since he was the WCS representative for China in the last event.
The incident was unfortunate and sloppy from both MLG and Blizzard China. The Chinese players/teams aren't blameless either. In the end couple Chinese players should be really upset.
However, "Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans". Come on now. If you were so confident about their abilities, you would have tried to qualify for WCS KR like Swim did.
They should re-do the WCS NA in my opinion. Give the pro-gamers priority then let open applicants. Its because of situations like this we're seeing the loss of the Chinese/Australia/Ect Sc2 scene
wcs without a single chinese player .. no invites and see them all went in finales of qualifiers 1-2 1-2 and then DQ their best vs top koreans and some good not even take part... i dont understand it they are so good and now we not see them their scene get hurt so much i want good chinese players back in the action !!!
On April 25 2013 02:04 Cattlecruiser wrote: The incident was unfortunate and sloppy from both MLG and Blizzard China. The Chinese players/teams aren't blameless either. In the end couple Chinese players should be really upset.
However, "Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans". Come on now. If you were so confident about their abilities, you would have tried to qualify for WCS KR like Swim did.
you have to LIFE in korea to play later on ... some chinese perhaps not want to leave their country and go to korea or not even have a chance to get a longer visa there ...
On April 25 2013 02:04 Cattlecruiser wrote: The incident was unfortunate and sloppy from both MLG and Blizzard China. The Chinese players/teams aren't blameless either. In the end couple Chinese players should be really upset.
However, "Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans". Come on now. If you were so confident about their abilities, you would have tried to qualify for WCS KR like Swim did.
you have to LIFE in korea to play later on ... some chinese perhaps not want to leave their country and go to korea or not even have a chance to get a longer visa there ...
also alot of esports teams in china have lol and dota2 teams and it would not be worth the budget to establish a team house in kr when you have a good one in china.
Man, I wish I could help manage these players and team, it sucks so hard to lose out on opportunity over misreading the terms or shitty bad luck through issues with registering/communication (as they had with MLG).
On April 25 2013 02:17 Torte de Lini wrote: Man, I wish I could help manage these players and team, it sucks so hard to lose out on opportunity over misreading the terms or shitty bad luck through issues with registering/communication (as they had with MLG).
Go ahead and ask them! I am sure they would love some help from someone like you
On April 25 2013 02:04 Cattlecruiser wrote:However, "Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans". Come on now. If you were so confident about their abilities, you would have tried to qualify for WCS KR like Swim did.
Yeah, they could have just taken the train over the the qualifiers like all the Koreans did, pay a couple bucks... Wait, no, that's not true at all.
Regardless of the organizations/persons/circumstances to blame, it is unfortunate for those Chinese players. I wish them best of luck in the future. I hope none of this happens again. I really want to see the Chinese SC2 scene flourish. China fighting!
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
Well it is good of him to finally accept fault for his players not registering ASAP but it's really passive aggressive to say things like "This interview is not to bash MLG; we hope all tournaments could be more professional and mature" and I laugh at assertions of "deserved tournament rights".
It's also kinda sad he feels running down other players (saying the Chinese "have superior results and notability") to make his argument. Personally I'm not so sure winning WCS China 2012 is more impressive than say, just making GSL Code A.
On April 25 2013 02:04 Cattlecruiser wrote: The incident was unfortunate and sloppy from both MLG and Blizzard China. The Chinese players/teams aren't blameless either. In the end couple Chinese players should be really upset.
However, "Chinese players are even more hard-working than Koreans". Come on now. If you were so confident about their abilities, you would have tried to qualify for WCS KR like Swim did.
Living in Korea to play Code B and Code A(if qualified) for a long time costs a lot of money, while the situation of Chinese scene is not good, Chinese teams have no interest in sending players to Korea, they would rather put these money to LoL and Dota.
In fact, there are only 3 SC2 teams in China now:iG,WE and Zoo. However, WE focusing on LoL now and only has 2 SC2 players(LoveCD and Loner), Zoo is a half-amateur team running by former progamer LoveTT, only iG is in a stable situation, but the team is also focusing on Dota2 and LoL, the only reason iG still run SC2 team is the coach Edison's efforts.
I dont know why you mention Swim here, maybe you misunderstand him as Taiwanese. Swim is a Korean played for Wayi Spider Korea before and now playing for Samsung Khan after Wayi Spider disbanded.
Poll: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done
Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (81)
58%
Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (32)
23%
In another way not defined above (20)
14%
None of the above (or not MLG fault) (6)
4%
139 total votes
Your vote: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done
(Vote): Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (Vote): Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (Vote): In another way not defined above (Vote): None of the above (or not MLG fault)
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I don't honestly understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
Sorry, forgot sarcasm doesn't work in text. You're completely right obviously. The situation itself is shameless, but the way MLG reacted after is really scary.
i think we chinese now only need the chance to play on international tournament，but not pity，we are not begging，just asking the right what we deserved to
Very interesting interview. This whole ordeal is a big shame, I would have loved to see Chinese players compete in the WCS. Hopefully their situation will improve for the second season, but that doesn't make it suck less right now.
Usually the community drama passes me by barely being noticed.
However, this time I am truly saddened. Just think about all the effort and hard work from the Chinese players just to not even have a chance... You can barely compare eastern and western work ethics and iG additionally has to struggle against all odds while many NA casuals could participate simply for the sake of it.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
On April 25 2013 02:53 Zenith_Zaephyr wrote: Can someone tell me why HoTs is still not released in China ? It's available in all the continents already. So what's the matter with that ?
Under review for release, should be released very soon.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I don't honestly understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
Sorry, forgot sarcasm doesn't work in text. You're completely right obviously. The situation itself is shameless, but the way MLG reacted after is really scary.
I'd honestly edit that post, if I were you because there are ignorant people who feel that that 'apology' was enough.
Anyway, I hope that Blizzard does step in. MLG doesn't even understand that there was a problem with this (as evidenced by that 'apology'), let alone have done something to fix it. It is a very unfortunate situation for the Chinese scene as well as the other players who were knocked out because of incompetence and poor communication. Also, hopefully we can see a statement from Blizzard regarding what they can do with preventing hackers too.
I still don't understand why Blizz was all about growing SC2 in China in 2012, even doing the final WCS there and then in 2013 they don't give a shit at all about the Chinese SC2 scene.
That's such a huge change in direction ... I really don't know what's going on there
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
MLG Gamebattles system is not even designed for starcraft, it is for halo, cod and lol, it is very very easy to misunderstand that the "team" actually means the participating individual not an actual team, especially if you didn't play in gamebattles before, MLG didn't even prepare their system for this tournament. Please refrain from making statements without understanding the context.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
This isnt the first time MLG has had confrontation with the Chinese fanbase/sc2 scene... Breaker (Ender116) has offered his services for MLG to cast in Mandarin for the Chinese viewers who cannot understand English. The result from that was him being told no, and consistently being shunned by MLG staff (from what I recall reading his Facebook post). So whether Sundance knows about the "situation" regarding MLG's (what comes off as to the chinese scene:discrimination, prejudice, racisim w.e they see it as) accidents/incidents, I feel its the communities' job to seek justice (not through hatred or disdain) and compensation for the chinese players. Its bad enough the Chinese government has walled-off global play for the chinese players, and basically nullified their ability to connect with other players in the other regions, but to have avoidable incidents occur for them in the offline plays as well is just detrimental to what could be the 2nd potentially biggest esports scene in the world.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
On April 25 2013 02:11 Fatlord wrote: never liked MLG
Blizzard is more to blame than MLG from what I understand, but it's true that MlG fucked up with this qualifier in general.
I don't think blizzard is to blame. They took a hands off approach running the qualifiers because they assumed their partners were competent enough to run an online qualifier. They were right with ESL, but were wrong with MLG. Blizzard is only at fault because they didn't micro manage it, but they shouldn't be expected to because they assumed MLG knew how to run an online qualifier. They were obviously wrong and now they both have egg on their faces.
On April 25 2013 02:53 Zenith_Zaephyr wrote: Can someone tell me why HoTs is still not released in China ? It's available in all the continents already. So what's the matter with that ?
Under review for release, should be released very soon.
digmouse, you who seem to know well the Chinese scene (thank you for the translation job btw), do you think there's enough players to create a worthy WCS CN ?
(I'm asking this just by sheer curiosity, I don't think it will happen, nor it will be a good thing anyway)
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
it's unbelievable that there are still people defending mlg after this mess and this pseudo apology. I can't understand what they are thinking.
On April 25 2013 02:11 Fatlord wrote: never liked MLG
Blizzard is more to blame than MLG from what I understand, but it's true that MlG fucked up with this qualifier in general.
I don't think blizzard is to blame. They took a hands off approach running the qualifiers because they assumed their partners were competent enough to run an online qualifier. They were right with ESL, but were wrong with MLG. Blizzard is only at fault because they didn't micro manage it, but they shouldn't be expected to because they assumed MLG knew how to run an online qualifier. They were obviously wrong and now they both have egg on their faces.
You know what they say about assuming right? That's like that time I let my kid brother write my history paper. I assumed he knew enough about 16th century politics in the Ottoman empire. It turns out I still got the bad grade.
On April 25 2013 02:17 Torte de Lini wrote: Man, I wish I could help manage these players and team, it sucks so hard to lose out on opportunity over misreading the terms or shitty bad luck through issues with registering/communication (as they had with MLG).
Go ahead and ask them! I am sure they would love some help from someone like you
Haha! I don't speak a lick of Chinese nor have any way to contact them :B, but thanks! I would have definitely followed through if I could.
On April 25 2013 02:53 Zenith_Zaephyr wrote: Can someone tell me why HoTs is still not released in China ? It's available in all the continents already. So what's the matter with that ?
Under review for release, should be released very soon.
digmouse, you who seem to knows well the Chinese scene (thank you for the translation job btw), do you think there's enough players to create a worthy WCS CN ?
(I'm asking this just by sheer curiosity, I don't think it will happen, nor it will be a good thing anyway)
Definitely yes, just see WCS 2012 Chinese qualifier, if there is a WCS 2013 Chinese qualifier and national playing on HotS the number of participants will only be significantly larger.
On April 25 2013 02:11 Fatlord wrote: never liked MLG
Blizzard is more to blame than MLG from what I understand, but it's true that MlG fucked up with this qualifier in general.
I don't think blizzard is to blame. They took a hands off approach running the qualifiers because they assumed their partners were competent enough to run an online qualifier. They were right with ESL, but were wrong with MLG. Blizzard is only at fault because they didn't micro manage it, but they shouldn't be expected to because they assumed MLG knew how to run an online qualifier. They were obviously wrong and now they both have egg on their faces.
From the interview, it appears that iG.Edison was under the impression that Blizzard China was going assist him in getting his players into the qualification bracket. Its unclear if they did anything, but there appears to be some miscommunication somewhere. iG.Edison was not aware of the 64 slots that MLG reserved for specific players and Blizzard China didn’t tell him about them. MLG seems to have been completely oblivious that the Chinese players even signed up, which is a little dumb too.
I would say that Blizzard is responsible for giving iG.Edison the impression that they would help get his players into the bracket. MGL is responsible to grossly underestimating the number of people that were going to sign up. iG.Edison should likely have taken more time to read the rules and maybe has someone else who understood English as well as him check his work. If anyone had done a better job on any of those fronts, this all would have been avoided.
On April 25 2013 02:11 Fatlord wrote: never liked MLG
Blizzard is more to blame than MLG from what I understand, but it's true that MlG fucked up with this qualifier in general.
I don't think blizzard is to blame. They took a hands off approach running the qualifiers because they assumed their partners were competent enough to run an online qualifier. They were right with ESL, but were wrong with MLG. Blizzard is only at fault because they didn't micro manage it, but they shouldn't be expected to because they assumed MLG knew how to run an online qualifier. They were obviously wrong and now they both have egg on their faces.
From the interview, it appears that iG.Edison was under the impression that Blizzard China was going assist him in getting his players into the qualification bracket. Its unclear if they did anything, but there appears to be some miscommunication somewhere. iG.Edison was not aware of the 64 slots that MLG reserved for specific players and Blizzard China didn’t tell him about them. MLG seems to have been completely oblivious that the Chinese players even signed up, which is a little dumb too.
I would say that Blizzard is responsible for giving iG.Edison the impression that they would help get his players into the bracket. MGL is responsible to grossly underestimating the number of people that were going to sign up. iG.Edison should likely have taken more time to read the rules and maybe has someone else who understood English as well as him check his work. If anyone had done a better job on any of those fronts, this all would have been avoided.
Actually both Blizzard and MLG are to blame for the fact that the Chinese players were left out of the bracket, both parties made false promises (Blizzard claiming that they would help them, MLG claiming that they are "good to go").
Who knows, had Edison known that his players were left out in time, and had he reacted fast enough, we probably wouldn't be in this mess right now.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
MLG: You must do SOMETHING to make this right. It's shameful and puts a huge question mark over the legitimacy of your tournament. I for one, will not be watching any of WCS NA until something is done. WCS EU will receive my viewership.
GL Edison, IG and all of the Chinese SC2 community.
On April 25 2013 02:44 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
On April 25 2013 03:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: WCS 2013 is going for the official eSports record of "most vague non-commital apologies in a single season".
You just described every public apology by every publicly owned anything, ever. They are by design vague and non-committal. Wait to see how they address the issues, rather than how specifically they apologize.
Thanks for the interview. Can't believe this guy is so nice about it.
First, MLG lets diamonds take the spots of the best players that could possibly be in the tournament (top 100 kr gm). Then they disqualify Comm (a wcs champion) -- for a technicality no one cares about -- when he's already very close to qualifying. And that's just what they did to the Chinese scene.
That's not incompetence. That's MLG spending Blizzard's money on blow and strippers while giving some homeless guy a couple beers to run the tournament for them.
On April 25 2013 02:44 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
Well, okay maybe I should've put it in better words. I am not only talking about the actual apology statement but also the stuff around it. While the first few tweets of Sundance almost felt a bit arrogant, Carmac's post on reddit showed that he understands the concerns of the community. Also technically it was more "detailed" (if not for much), as he explained that Kaelaris was supposed to find a co-caster for the qualifiers but wasn't able to actually find one.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
Don't know how u can say MLG did enough for the timeframe they had. ESL showed with even less time that alot more was doable. Also looking up last Years WCS top 3-5 finishers for each Region and having a list for these players takes less than 1hour (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series). If the whole WCS-NA Qualifier was too much for MLG why didn't they ask for some help from ESL/TL/NASL/Blizzard to be better prepared for Season1 Qualifier. They said we're able to do WCS-NA, they knew the timeframe, but it seems they a)have not the resources to handle something big like this or b)they did not put enough manpower behind it to reduce the cost and make maximum profit underestimating this community backlash.
MLG needs to do something more to correct this issue than just the public statement they put out. A simple statement saying "We are sorry" really isn't adequate. I don't think I will be watching anymore WCS NA until something more is done.
On April 25 2013 02:55 yawnoC wrote: [quote]What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
Dont know how u can say MLG did enough for the timeframe they had. ESL showed with even less time that alot more was doable. Also looking up last Years WCS top 3-5 finishers for each Region and having a list for these players takes less than 1hour (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series). If the whole WCS-NA Qualifier was too much for MLG why didnt they ask for some help from ESL/TL/NASL/Blizzard to be better prepared for Season1 Qualifier. They said were able to do WCS-NA, they knew the timeframe, but it seems they a)have not the resources to handle something big like this or b)they did not put enough manpower behind it to reduce the cost and make maximum profit underestimating this community backlash.
ESL has a history of running events like this only. MLG doesn't. Its not suprise that ESL did a better job and guess what? Even they had to fix things. Ultimately Blizzard shouldn't have pushed all this as fast as they did but they did. People fucked up but as long as they fix all those issues for the next event I have no real issue. When things are done for the first time problems are natural. I feel like everyone wants everything to be close to perfect out of the gate when that is just not possible.
Maybe it's because I am european, but I would've liked WCS NA alot better with some chinese players. Sadly I think there is no fair way to resolve this issue.
On April 25 2013 02:57 Undead1993 wrote: [quote] LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
On April 25 2013 02:55 yawnoC wrote: [quote]What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
Well, okay maybe I should've put it in better words. I am not only talking about the actual apology statement but also the stuff around it. While the first few tweets of Sundance almost felt a bit arrogant, Carmac's post on reddit showed that he understands the concerns of the community. Also technically it was more "detailed" (if not for much), as he explained that Kaelaris was supposed to find a co-caster for the qualifiers but wasn't able to actually find one.
I think in general the community would like MLG to be more open and less dismissive its concerns. Having a dialogue with them, rather than a shouting match. Qualifiers are always going to leave someone unhappy and complaining on the internet for any number of reasons. No process is going to be perfect, but being willing to talk about it would do a lot of their PR. And to be fair to Sundance, when he made the tweet about throwing money, there was some horrible stuff being sent to him on twitter. He shouldn't have responded like that, but the stuff that was coming in was pretty out of control.
On April 25 2013 02:57 Undead1993 wrote: [quote] LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
Dont know how u can say MLG did enough for the timeframe they had. ESL showed with even less time that alot more was doable. Also looking up last Years WCS top 3-5 finishers for each Region and having a list for these players takes less than 1hour (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series). If the whole WCS-NA Qualifier was too much for MLG why didnt they ask for some help from ESL/TL/NASL/Blizzard to be better prepared for Season1 Qualifier. They said were able to do WCS-NA, they knew the timeframe, but it seems they a)have not the resources to handle something big like this or b)they did not put enough manpower behind it to reduce the cost and make maximum profit underestimating this community backlash.
ESL has a history of running events like this only. MLG doesn't. Its not suprise that ESL did a better job and guess what? Even they had to fix things. Ultimately Blizzard shouldn't have pushed all this as fast as they did but they did. People fucked up but as long as they fix all those issues for the next event I have no real issue. When things are done for the first time problems are natural. I feel like everyone wants everything to be close to perfect out of the gate when that is just not possible.
How does this excuse MLG for not asking for informations/help on OnlineTournaments from organisations like ESL that have more experience with these things ?
On April 25 2013 03:03 Yello wrote: I still don't understand why Blizz was all about growing SC2 in China in 2012, even doing the final WCS there and then in 2013 they don't give a shit at all about the Chinese SC2 scene.
That's such a huge change in direction ... I really don't know what's going on there
To be fair, MLG is responsible for WCS NA, not Blizzard. This is entirely on Sundance.
On April 25 2013 03:04 yawnoC wrote: [quote]And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
On April 25 2013 03:51 semmeL wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:26 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:10 EnPassant wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:04 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:57 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:55 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:44 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:25 Mangooze wrote: Oh come on, MLG make a public apology, get over it already. What else can you ask from them...
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
Dont know how u can say MLG did enough for the timeframe they had. ESL showed with even less time that alot more was doable. Also looking up last Years WCS top 3-5 finishers for each Region and having a list for these players takes less than 1hour (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series). If the whole WCS-NA Qualifier was too much for MLG why didnt they ask for some help from ESL/TL/NASL/Blizzard to be better prepared for Season1 Qualifier. They said were able to do WCS-NA, they knew the timeframe, but it seems they a)have not the resources to handle something big like this or b)they did not put enough manpower behind it to reduce the cost and make maximum profit underestimating this community backlash.
ESL has a history of running events like this only. MLG doesn't. Its not suprise that ESL did a better job and guess what? Even they had to fix things. Ultimately Blizzard shouldn't have pushed all this as fast as they did but they did. People fucked up but as long as they fix all those issues for the next event I have no real issue. When things are done for the first time problems are natural. I feel like everyone wants everything to be close to perfect out of the gate when that is just not possible.
How does this excuse MLG for not asking for informations/help on OnlineTournaments from organisations like ESL that have more experience with these things ?
It doesn't. I never said it did. ESL also had to worry about all the projects they are doing/have coming up. So they probably couldn't have given much help anyway.
On April 25 2013 03:03 Yello wrote: I still don't understand why Blizz was all about growing SC2 in China in 2012, even doing the final WCS there and then in 2013 they don't give a shit at all about the Chinese SC2 scene.
That's such a huge change in direction ... I really don't know what's going on there
To be fair, MLG is responsible for WCS NA, not Blizzard. This is entirely on Sundance.
Regarding the qualifier? Yes.
But keep in mind Blizzard hasn't invited any Chinese players into *any* WCS Premier league.
On April 25 2013 03:04 yawnoC wrote: [quote]And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
It's truly frustrated with everything that happen to the Chinese players in WCS NA qualifier, but this was a lesson to learn what they have to do in the future. May be they need an agent in US or Coordinator in US for their players to participate in NA tournament. Your players already show the world how good they can be.
I believed MLG already try their best to run the show, but nothing is perfect. Don't give up to have the players to participate in NA tournament.
On April 25 2013 03:03 Yello wrote: I still don't understand why Blizz was all about growing SC2 in China in 2012, even doing the final WCS there and then in 2013 they don't give a shit at all about the Chinese SC2 scene.
That's such a huge change in direction ... I really don't know what's going on there
To be fair, MLG is responsible for WCS NA, not Blizzard. This is entirely on Sundance.
Regarding the qualifier? Yes.
But keep in mind Blizzard hasn't invited any Chinese players into *any* WCS Premier league.
I imagine that's because HoTS isn't released in China. They were, however, told to qualify from WCS NA.
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
On April 25 2013 03:51 semmeL wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:26 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:10 EnPassant wrote:
On April 25 2013 03:04 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:57 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:55 yawnoC wrote:
On April 25 2013 02:44 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
A public apology full of fluff and of no actual substance, that provided no new information regarding what went wrong or how they'll attempt to mitigate the damage already done. I honestly don't understand how any rational individual can look at that supposed apology and see it as anything more than a bunch of cookie-cutter nonspecific drivel that companies release all the time when they dun goof.
What went wrong? The manager just told you what went wrong. They didn't register at the same time MacSeed did because he didn't fully understand the rules and thought he was registering his whole team for an individual event. Which is the opposite of what people were originally saying. Both sides did things wrong. The apology didn't need to address every detail. They said they fucked up, they said they will improve for next time. If they don't that is when we really have to be up in arms with MLG and Blizzard.
LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
Dont know how u can say MLG did enough for the timeframe they had. ESL showed with even less time that alot more was doable. Also looking up last Years WCS top 3-5 finishers for each Region and having a list for these players takes less than 1hour (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series). If the whole WCS-NA Qualifier was too much for MLG why didnt they ask for some help from ESL/TL/NASL/Blizzard to be better prepared for Season1 Qualifier. They said were able to do WCS-NA, they knew the timeframe, but it seems they a)have not the resources to handle something big like this or b)they did not put enough manpower behind it to reduce the cost and make maximum profit underestimating this community backlash.
ESL has a history of running events like this only. MLG doesn't. Its not suprise that ESL did a better job and guess what? Even they had to fix things. Ultimately Blizzard shouldn't have pushed all this as fast as they did but they did. People fucked up but as long as they fix all those issues for the next event I have no real issue. When things are done for the first time problems are natural. I feel like everyone wants everything to be close to perfect out of the gate when that is just not possible.
How does this excuse MLG for not asking for informations/help on OnlineTournaments from organisations like ESL that have more experience with these things ?
It doesn't. I never said it did. ESL also had to worry about all the projects they are doing/have coming up. So they probably couldn't have given much help anyway.
U have a point there. But TL also did TSL, NASL is there, man would it have been so hard to jump over ur shadow and ask for help at the first season qualifier, cause it was on a timeframe that seemed not doable for MLG. I think in the negotiations with Blizzard about WCS they said they would be able to do it..., so if they could not guarantee it, they should not have said they could. And now they don't even aknowledge all the faults they had in this qualifier. If MLG takes action and do something for the upcoming ChallengerQualifier to compensate the Regions/Players they fucked over i'm willing to get over this and go forward. But if only the top #9-40 finishers of the first Qualifier are able to compete in the ChallengerQualifier and nothing changes until them i am not willing to forgive MLG.
Edit: About ur post above, yeah im angry about all the GMs/Masters that didnt get into it, but low league players that did. GSL system was known to prevent something like that.
On April 25 2013 03:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: WCS 2013 is going for the official eSports record of "most vague non-commital apologies in a single season".
You just described every public apology by every publicly owned anything, ever. They are by design vague and non-committal. Wait to see how they address the issues, rather than how specifically they apologize.
no, u r describing a ridiculous over-generalized white-wash
here is a specific apology that hits the issues head on.
very different from the vague comments coming from MLG. This apology is in person facing the camera with an active Q&A sesssion. MLG gives us a text only apology.
after hearing Gary Betman's apology i had some confidence the NHL would put together a solid 2013 season. the content of MLG's apology and Blizzard stone cold silence do not inspire the same level of confidence in WCS 2013.
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
The Chinese scene in SC2 is rather isolated from the Europe-North America-South Korea trifecta. However the top players there are considered to be very good, and we've seen glimpses of that in the past, however not nearly as much as we ideally would have wanted. What does this mean? This means the Chinese are mysterious wildcards who could turn up and dazzle everyone with mad skillz, the fact that they very rarely compete in European/North American tournaments (whether online or offline) only adds to the hype and mystique. And then, China has had a massive gaming audience for WarCraft 3, and still has one for DotA. Blizzard saw this market that could prove to be very important for SC2, as evidenced by their hosting WCS Asia and WCS Grand Finals last year in China, in an attempt to bring the Chinese scene closer to the international community, and also market their game there.
So MLG's mishaps take that unfortunately shoddy relationship between the Chinese and the rest of the community, and shit on it. And it's not only about some Chinese players not making it in (despite having registered in time and told they were good to go by MLG admins), it's also about disqualifying Comm only when he was one round away from qualifying, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, and also about attempting to censor and ban the people who brought this issue to light in their channels.
So yes, while I agree that Puck/LeiYa's case is also unfortunate, there's a lot more to it than you suggest.
On April 25 2013 03:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: WCS 2013 is going for the official eSports record of "most vague non-commital apologies in a single season".
You just described every public apology by every publicly owned anything, ever. They are by design vague and non-committal. Wait to see how they address the issues, rather than how specifically they apologize.
no, u r describing a ridiculous over-generalized white-wash
here is a specific apology that hits the issues head on.
very different from the vague comments coming from MLG. This apology is in person facing the camera with an active Q&A sesssion. MLG gives us a text only apology.
after hearing Gary Betman's apology i had some confidence the NHL would put together a solid 2013 season. the content of MLG's apology and Blizzard stone cold silence do not inspire the same level of confidence in WCS 2013.
That is fine if you feel the need to critic the length, breath and level of specific detail in the apology. I take Sundance and MLG at their word that they are sorry this took place and they are going to try and do better. I am more interested in how the problems gets solved than making MLG admit just how wrong they are.
On April 25 2013 03:26 yawnoC wrote: [quote]I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
The Chinese scene in SC2 is rather isolated from the Europe-North America-South Korea trifecta. However the top players there are considered to be very good, and we've seen glimpses of that in the past, however not nearly as much as we ideally would have wanted. What does this mean? This means the Chinese are mysterious wildcards who could turn up and dazzle everyone with mad skillz, the fact that they very rarely compete in European/North American tournaments (whether online or offline) only adds to the hype and mystique. And then, China has had a massive gaming audience for WarCraft 3, and still has one for DotA. Blizzard saw this market that could prove to be very important for SC2, as evidenced by their hosting WCS Asia and WCS Grand Finals last year in China, in an attempt to bring the Chinese scene closer to the international community, and also market their game there.
So MLG's mishaps take that unfortunately shoddy relationship between the Chinese and the rest of the community, and shit on it. And it's not only about some Chinese players not making it in (despite having registered in time and told they were good to go by MLG admins), it's also about disqualifying Comm only when he was one round away from qualifying, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, and also about attempting to censor and ban the people who brought this issue to light in their channels.
So yes, while I agree that Puck/LeiYa's case is also unfortunate, there's a lot more to it than you suggest.
I wish they went against there rules and let Comm play but they couldn't. If they don't take there own rules seriously why should anyone? I have heard and read that they didn't even ban the PhysicsLee for hacking but for account sharing so how can you DQ one player for it and not another?
By in there channels I assume you mean twitch chat. I have no issue with banning people for spamming. Spamming is also, again, against the rules. Twitch Chat is also NOT the place to do get MLG attention. People have also said MLG weren't the ones doing most of it and it was a filters etc.
I just wonder why Blizzard hasn't made a league from Asia w/o korean. So basically a WCS Amerika, Europe, Korea and Asia. While this may not make sense from a geographical standpoints, it sure makes sense from a players distribution.
On April 25 2013 04:54 testthewest wrote: I just wonder why Blizzard hasn't made a league from Asia w/o korean. So basically a WCS Amerika, Europe, Korea and Asia. While this may not make sense from a geographical standpoints, it sure makes sense from a players distribution.
I think they talked about doing that next year as this year was a bit rushed, which is why I don't fully blame MLG.
On April 25 2013 03:28 JustPassingBy wrote: [quote]
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
The Chinese scene in SC2 is rather isolated from the Europe-North America-South Korea trifecta. However the top players there are considered to be very good, and we've seen glimpses of that in the past, however not nearly as much as we ideally would have wanted. What does this mean? This means the Chinese are mysterious wildcards who could turn up and dazzle everyone with mad skillz, the fact that they very rarely compete in European/North American tournaments (whether online or offline) only adds to the hype and mystique. And then, China has had a massive gaming audience for WarCraft 3, and still has one for DotA. Blizzard saw this market that could prove to be very important for SC2, as evidenced by their hosting WCS Asia and WCS Grand Finals last year in China, in an attempt to bring the Chinese scene closer to the international community, and also market their game there.
So MLG's mishaps take that unfortunately shoddy relationship between the Chinese and the rest of the community, and shit on it. And it's not only about some Chinese players not making it in (despite having registered in time and told they were good to go by MLG admins), it's also about disqualifying Comm only when he was one round away from qualifying, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, and also about attempting to censor and ban the people who brought this issue to light in their channels.
So yes, while I agree that Puck/LeiYa's case is also unfortunate, there's a lot more to it than you suggest.
I wish they went against there rules and let Comm play but they couldn't. If they don't take there own rules seriously why should anyone? I have heard and read that they didn't even ban the PhysicsLee for hacking but for account sharing so how can you DQ one player for it and not another?
By in there channels I assume you mean twitch chat. I have no issue with banning people for spamming. Spamming is also, again, against the rules. Twitch Chat is also NOT the place to do get MLG attention. People have also said MLG weren't the ones doing most of it and it was a filters etc.
They don't even take their own rules seriously. They apply them on an arbitrary (or seemingly arbitrary, unless you want to justify it as racism) case-by-case basis.
Here's the thing. Twitch chat is awful, it really is. But at the same time, there's something wrong when you censor people en masse for trying to inquire about an issue of this kind of importance, when some of them are doing it in a civil, non-trollish, non-spammy way. And I'm fairly sure that people have tried to reach the MLG admins in various other ways as well, only to be met with utter indifference.
On April 25 2013 03:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: WCS 2013 is going for the official eSports record of "most vague non-commital apologies in a single season".
You just described every public apology by every publicly owned anything, ever. They are by design vague and non-committal. Wait to see how they address the issues, rather than how specifically they apologize.
no, u r describing a ridiculous over-generalized white-wash
here is a specific apology that hits the issues head on.
very different from the vague comments coming from MLG. This apology is in person facing the camera with an active Q&A sesssion. MLG gives us a text only apology.
after hearing Gary Betman's apology i had some confidence the NHL would put together a solid 2013 season. the content of MLG's apology and Blizzard stone cold silence do not inspire the same level of confidence in WCS 2013.
That is fine if you feel the need to critic the length, breath and level of specific detail in the apology. I take Sundance and MLG at their word that they are sorry this took place and they are going to try and do better. I am more interested in how the problems gets solved than making MLG admit just how wrong they are.
so u r now backing off ur initial claim that every apology ever made in public is always vague, great.
in any competitive league the confidence the general public has in the integrity of the competition is crucial. this is where... even the "Appearance of impropriety" is bad.
so the apology itself is a problem.
until MLG makes systematic changes i have zero confidence in the competitive integrity of WCS NA.
as a point of comparison, i have reasonable confidence in the competitive integrity of the NHL in 2013 now if Gary Betman arbitrarily decided to disqualify the NY Rangers for the Stanley Cup playoffs ...well..that confidence level would diminish
The current season of WCS 2013 NA... is just a bad joke.
Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
On April 25 2013 03:29 yawnoC wrote: [quote]I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
The Chinese scene in SC2 is rather isolated from the Europe-North America-South Korea trifecta. However the top players there are considered to be very good, and we've seen glimpses of that in the past, however not nearly as much as we ideally would have wanted. What does this mean? This means the Chinese are mysterious wildcards who could turn up and dazzle everyone with mad skillz, the fact that they very rarely compete in European/North American tournaments (whether online or offline) only adds to the hype and mystique. And then, China has had a massive gaming audience for WarCraft 3, and still has one for DotA. Blizzard saw this market that could prove to be very important for SC2, as evidenced by their hosting WCS Asia and WCS Grand Finals last year in China, in an attempt to bring the Chinese scene closer to the international community, and also market their game there.
So MLG's mishaps take that unfortunately shoddy relationship between the Chinese and the rest of the community, and shit on it. And it's not only about some Chinese players not making it in (despite having registered in time and told they were good to go by MLG admins), it's also about disqualifying Comm only when he was one round away from qualifying, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, and also about attempting to censor and ban the people who brought this issue to light in their channels.
So yes, while I agree that Puck/LeiYa's case is also unfortunate, there's a lot more to it than you suggest.
I wish they went against there rules and let Comm play but they couldn't. If they don't take there own rules seriously why should anyone? I have heard and read that they didn't even ban the PhysicsLee for hacking but for account sharing so how can you DQ one player for it and not another?
By in there channels I assume you mean twitch chat. I have no issue with banning people for spamming. Spamming is also, again, against the rules. Twitch Chat is also NOT the place to do get MLG attention. People have also said MLG weren't the ones doing most of it and it was a filters etc.
They don't even take their own rules seriously. They apply them on an arbitrary (or seemingly arbitrary, unless you want to justify it as racism) case-by-case basis.
Here's the thing. Twitch chat is awful, it really is. But at the same time, there's something wrong when you censor people en masse for trying to inquire about an issue of this kind of importance, when some of them are doing it in a civil, non-trollish, non-spammy way. And I'm fairly sure that people have tried to reach the MLG admins in various other ways as well, only to be met with utter indifference.
Examples of them being wishy washy with their own rules? Also, care to provide proof of people going through official channels and not getting a response from MLG about everything? I also have no problem with censoring people who are spamming something that is not an official channel for what they want to know. If so many people weren't bring trollish dicks in twitch chat maybe you could have gotten a response but when so much garbage is just flowing out its hard to separate people being civil and people being trolls. Sad but true.
On April 25 2013 02:57 Undead1993 wrote: [quote] LOL he still said that they registered 1 day before the koreans and the koreans were in the bracket they were not. srsly "both sides did thing wrong" god damn it.
And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
1. MLG also had the ability to do something about it. Many, many people, including myself, let MLG know how terrible of an idea this format was. Yet, just days before the event instead of making changes they reiterated that that was the way it is. IE. they saw the warnings, but instead of listening to the common sense of how terrible of an idea it was, they ignored them and went ahead. People would have thanked them greatly if they had changed to add more players, or even added a priority...which if you know is how GSL does their qualifier (again, common sense that shouldn't of even needed warning, but they did get one and still went ahead). PS. the technology has been there a long long time to see what league someone is in, it can be an automated process. They had many options of change and plenty of opportunity, they chose not to...this is a first time deal for them and they should have welcomed suggestions and criticisms rather than ignore them.
2. I know they don't understand what people are upset about because they didn't mention it in their 'apology' (how can you expect them to try to solve a problem they don't acknowledge exists). If they thought it was as big a deal as we do, obviously, they would have mentioned it.
3. You're right, they have fucked up a lot and made a lot of apologies, which is why it's safe to say we expected more/better from this one...they have plenty of practice.
4. No one is expecting anything to happen retrospectively, i have no idea where you got that from. I said they titled the apology "how we will improve" implying the future..which is why I was expecting something they are going to do in the future to prevent these situations. Furthermore, many of us have complained about the Challenger format. Did they bother to mention how they are going to take these lessons on to improve that? NO. because they don't even acknowledge them as problems!
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
On April 25 2013 03:31 JustPassingBy wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
If u know u do only 1 Qualifier, u have to make sure that it's doable/tripple fool proofed. So if u do only 1 Qualifier make sure beforehand that mistakes at this scale and how often they accured can not happen. Again MLGs fault for just doing 1 Qualifier and doing it so bad. They also could have run more Qualifiers and improve upon them like ESL did. But well more Qualifiers more work, better just do 1 and safe money.
Maybe they did? We have no idea what precautions they took. Again, the only mistake they made in regards to registering was not having enough spots (1024 instead of 512 for example). I hate to say it because I have always been a fan of Chinese players and teams from WC3 and CS 1.6 but the Chinese not registering early enough to get a spot is not really MLGs fault and I don't see how it can be. Don't get me wrong, MLG could have done a lot better, but I think people are manly focusing on the wrong things. No one is making a fuss over puck not getting in. Not saying puck is on comm or Jims level but if you are going to complain about people not getting in it should be about all the good players, not just the Chinese.
Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
The Chinese scene in SC2 is rather isolated from the Europe-North America-South Korea trifecta. However the top players there are considered to be very good, and we've seen glimpses of that in the past, however not nearly as much as we ideally would have wanted. What does this mean? This means the Chinese are mysterious wildcards who could turn up and dazzle everyone with mad skillz, the fact that they very rarely compete in European/North American tournaments (whether online or offline) only adds to the hype and mystique. And then, China has had a massive gaming audience for WarCraft 3, and still has one for DotA. Blizzard saw this market that could prove to be very important for SC2, as evidenced by their hosting WCS Asia and WCS Grand Finals last year in China, in an attempt to bring the Chinese scene closer to the international community, and also market their game there.
So MLG's mishaps take that unfortunately shoddy relationship between the Chinese and the rest of the community, and shit on it. And it's not only about some Chinese players not making it in (despite having registered in time and told they were good to go by MLG admins), it's also about disqualifying Comm only when he was one round away from qualifying, FOR FUCK'S SAKE, and also about attempting to censor and ban the people who brought this issue to light in their channels.
So yes, while I agree that Puck/LeiYa's case is also unfortunate, there's a lot more to it than you suggest.
I wish they went against there rules and let Comm play but they couldn't. If they don't take there own rules seriously why should anyone? I have heard and read that they didn't even ban the PhysicsLee for hacking but for account sharing so how can you DQ one player for it and not another?
By in there channels I assume you mean twitch chat. I have no issue with banning people for spamming. Spamming is also, again, against the rules. Twitch Chat is also NOT the place to do get MLG attention. People have also said MLG weren't the ones doing most of it and it was a filters etc.
They don't even take their own rules seriously. They apply them on an arbitrary (or seemingly arbitrary, unless you want to justify it as racism) case-by-case basis.
Here's the thing. Twitch chat is awful, it really is. But at the same time, there's something wrong when you censor people en masse for trying to inquire about an issue of this kind of importance, when some of them are doing it in a civil, non-trollish, non-spammy way. And I'm fairly sure that people have tried to reach the MLG admins in various other ways as well, only to be met with utter indifference.
Examples of them being wishy washy with their own rules? Also, proof people were going through official channels and not getting a response from MLG about everything? I also have no problem with censoring people who are spamming something that is not an official channel for what they want to know. If so many people weren't bring trollish dicks in twitch chat maybe you could have gotten a response but when so much garbage is just flowing out its hard to separate people being civil and people being trolls. Sad but true.
Here, I'll "proof" Example of them being "wishy-washy" with their own rules, Korean player Crank in EU compared to Chinese player Comm in NA. Perfect example for you.
As for people being censored on twitch channels by twitch admins, I agree with you. It's the same on TL, admins allow what they want, it is their right, since they are responsible for everything on their site and or chat channels, ect.
Because of this I will always cheer for Comm, Jim, and the other players that were hurt by this. Shame.
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
A lot of pro players had their spots in the tournament guaranteed. For some reason some others were overlooked and the Chinese were among those players..
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
A lot of pro players had their spots in the tournament guaranteed. For some reason some others were overlooked and the Chinese were among those players..
On April 25 2013 04:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
You have a lot to learn about rabble rousing. That is no way to continue stocking furor in a lynch mob. You use this to prove not only is MLG racist but that they hate the LBGT community as well.
Or wait, maybe it is the right plan because if/when something for the Chinese gets announced you can then continue complaining by then bringing up Puck/LeiYa. It's a riskier strat but it is valid.
I am going to do my best to ignore this stupidity forever more and daydream about heads exploding if Edison had come out with a statement that didn't point fingers and play victimology but instead went something like "It was my mistake that I did not get my players registered ASAP and I accept the responsibility that my negligence has cost them this opportunity. I will perform my duties better next season which is about 6 weeks away."
Then again who knows how many Chinese pros would have been able to survive those 6 weeks...
On April 25 2013 03:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: WCS 2013 is going for the official eSports record of "most vague non-commital apologies in a single season".
You just described every public apology by every publicly owned anything, ever. They are by design vague and non-committal. Wait to see how they address the issues, rather than how specifically they apologize.
no, u r describing a ridiculous over-generalized white-wash
here is a specific apology that hits the issues head on.
very different from the vague comments coming from MLG. This apology is in person facing the camera with an active Q&A sesssion. MLG gives us a text only apology.
after hearing Gary Betman's apology i had some confidence the NHL would put together a solid 2013 season. the content of MLG's apology and Blizzard stone cold silence do not inspire the same level of confidence in WCS 2013.
That is fine if you feel the need to critic the length, breath and level of specific detail in the apology. I take Sundance and MLG at their word that they are sorry this took place and they are going to try and do better. I am more interested in how the problems gets solved than making MLG admit just how wrong they are.
so u r now backing off ur initial claim that every apology ever made in public is always vague, great.
in any competitive league the confidence the general public has in the integrity of the competition is crucial. this is where... even the "Appearance of impropriety" is bad.
so the apology itself is a problem.
until MLG makes systematic changes i have zero confidence in the competitive integrity of WCS NA.
as a point of comparison, i have reasonable confidence in the competitive integrity of the NHL in 2013 now if Gary Betman arbitrarily decided to disqualify the NY Rangers for the Stanley Cup playoffs ...well..that confidence level would diminish
Jimmy I am not arguing with you, I am expressing my point of view on the subject. In my personal experience, most publicly owned entities with investors issue vague public statements when they apologize for things. I personally don't hold it against them as there is likely reasons for them to do so. I am not really interested in them listing off each individual detail wrong and how they feel it could have been corrected. I am interested in how they are going to handle the next qualifiers and address the problems in the future.
If you think that MLG has ruined it appearance of integrity, that's fine too. We don't have to agree on the subject.
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
A lot of pro players had their spots in the tournament guaranteed. For some reason some others were overlooked and the Chinese were among those players..
Including the national champion..
Indeed. And he should have been among the 8 non American premiere league invites in the first place.
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
I will guarantee you that KeSPA had absolutely nothing to do with it at all seeing as none of the participating players were from KeSPA teams.
Really sad about how badly MLG fucked this up. I do fully believe that the chinese players work just as hard as the koreans do(Dota/LoL, pretty sure what SC2 players are left work just as hard), despite not having much of a practice infrastructure apart from teamhouses. I don't really see a way for them to remedy the situation though without either rerunning qualifiers(unfair to the people who did qualify, regardless of how poorly it was run), or expanding the format to a RoXX and inviting/qualifying more people.
it is really stupid that they knew comm was playing on a friend's account as he even told the players he faced every game and admins present he was comm and get to the final round of losers bracket and get DQ'd. let the guy get to the final step to the premier league against a bunch of koreans and gets dq'd while hackers run free
On April 25 2013 03:04 yawnoC wrote: [quote]And MLG reserved spots, JUST LIKE ESL DID, for specific players who they have dealt with in the past... why is that hard to understand?
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
1. MLG also had the ability to do something about it. Many, many people, including myself, let MLG know how terrible of an idea this format was. Yet, just days before the event instead of making changes they reiterated that that was the way it is. IE. they saw the warnings, but instead of listening to the common sense of how terrible of an idea it was, they ignored them and went ahead. People would have thanked them greatly if they had changed to add more players, or even added a priority...which if you know is how GSL does their qualifier (again, common sense that shouldn't of even needed warning, but they did get one and still went ahead). PS. the technology has been there a long long time to see what league someone is in, it can be an automated process. They had many options of change and plenty of opportunity, they chose not to...this is a first time deal for them and they should have welcomed suggestions and criticisms rather than ignore them.
2. I know they don't understand what people are upset about because they didn't mention it in their 'apology' (how can you expect them to try to solve a problem they don't acknowledge exists). If they thought it was as big a deal as we do, obviously, they would have mentioned it.
3. You're right, they have fucked up a lot and made a lot of apologies, which is why it's safe to say we expected more/better from this one...they have plenty of practice.
4. No one is expecting anything to happen retrospectively, i have no idea where you got that from. I said they titled the apology "how we will improve" implying the future..which is why I was expecting something they are going to do in the future to prevent these situations. Furthermore, many of us have complained about the Challenger format. Did they bother to mention how they are going to take these lessons on to improve that? NO. because they don't even acknowledge them as problems!
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
1. I only saw people bitching about the barrier of entry IE paying to play in it. I also agree they should have increased the size of the playing field. Also changing the format/implementing those type of changes, like you say, days before the event would have probably cause more headaches and might have made things go even worse overall.
2. You are assuming they don't know. Just like I assume that even though they didn't explicitly mention every little detail in their apology doesn't mean they are doing nothing about the problems the community has brought up.
3. People have never complained about there apologies before so why change the format I guess?
4. People are saying "Let comm play his last match" after he has been DQ'd. People were saying MLG should go back and let those who played against the hacker player again while the event was live. There have been others but those were just to stupid to even give a second though to. Again just because they don't mention every single complaint the community has does not mean they haven't acknowledged those issues. I do agree that including how we will improve in the title was a stupid move but I am honestly not caught up on that because I know they will improve. They always have up until this point so why should I doubt them now?
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
If the format remains bad and they don't fix the issues. I agree.
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
1. MLG also had the ability to do something about it. Many, many people, including myself, let MLG know how terrible of an idea this format was. Yet, just days before the event instead of making changes they reiterated that that was the way it is. IE. they saw the warnings, but instead of listening to the common sense of how terrible of an idea it was, they ignored them and went ahead. People would have thanked them greatly if they had changed to add more players, or even added a priority...which if you know is how GSL does their qualifier (again, common sense that shouldn't of even needed warning, but they did get one and still went ahead). PS. the technology has been there a long long time to see what league someone is in, it can be an automated process. They had many options of change and plenty of opportunity, they chose not to...this is a first time deal for them and they should have welcomed suggestions and criticisms rather than ignore them.
2. I know they don't understand what people are upset about because they didn't mention it in their 'apology' (how can you expect them to try to solve a problem they don't acknowledge exists). If they thought it was as big a deal as we do, obviously, they would have mentioned it.
3. You're right, they have fucked up a lot and made a lot of apologies, which is why it's safe to say we expected more/better from this one...they have plenty of practice.
4. No one is expecting anything to happen retrospectively, i have no idea where you got that from. I said they titled the apology "how we will improve" implying the future..which is why I was expecting something they are going to do in the future to prevent these situations. Furthermore, many of us have complained about the Challenger format. Did they bother to mention how they are going to take these lessons on to improve that? NO. because they don't even acknowledge them as problems!
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
1. I only saw people bitching about the barrier of entry IE paying to play in it. I also agree they should have increased the size of the playing field. Also changing the format/implementing those type of changes, like you say, days before the event would have probably cause more headaches and might have made things go even worse overall.
2. You are assuming they don't know. Just like I assume that even though they didn't explicitly mention every little detail in their apology doesn't mean they are doing nothing about the problems the community has brought up.
3. People have never complained about there apologies before so why change the format I guess?
4. People are saying "Let comm play his last match" after he has been DQ'd. People were saying MLG should go back and let those who played against the hacker player again while the event was live. There have been others but those were just to stupid to even give a second though to. Again just because they don't mention every single complaint the community has does not mean they haven't acknowledged those issues. I do agree that including how we will improve in the title was a stupid move but I am honestly not caught up on that because I know they will improve. They always have up until this point so why should I doubt them now?
I was bitching about the entry fee because why should AM be the only region to have to pay to play..especially when they could of simply added a priority, which would of fixed/prevented the majority of this (just like GSL already does) and served the same purpose.
I don't assume they don't know..they know (we've made enough noise)...what I assume is that they don't see it as a problem, as evidenced by them not mentioning anything towards the Chinese or any of the players who couldn't get in or any of the players who were knocked out by ppl who were subsequently dq'd.
Again, they say "how we will improve" but don't finish the sentence. If you have faith in them, then that is what sets us apart..they have given me more than enough reason over the past 3 years to doubt them. I'm not going to discuss what they have done in the past because it has already been brought up in many of these threads...the info is around.
We'll see with the challenger who's lacked faith or misplaced faith (o btw, the challenger quali's are invite only and the invitees are based on the premier qualifier)
I feel sorry for the Chinese players affected by this. It's definately frustrating that low level players and players that didn't even show up took spots from professionals and masters/grandmasters. There should definately be prejudice... we want the best players, not players that are essentially wasting their time and our time. Why would anyone below masters get in? If that happened, that's just stupid. I don't think its MLG's fault that hackers got into an online qualifier, but MLG could have handled essentialy all of the problems mentioned in the OP's post much better, including the hackers.
I'm sad for the Chinese scene, MLG really messed up big time. The Chinese scene seems to be awesome, somehow all of this makes me want to follow them and root for them!
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
I cried when I found out MacSed was the only player who made it to the original 512 man bracket. Anywhere from 7-10 players on the Korean server that are GMs come from China. They have training curriculum that is comparable to the Koreans themselves in doing as much training as 14 hours each day.
The only reason why I think MLG even let or thought about letting MacSed in to the original 512 man bracket was because his name was once on the front page of Teamliquid.net, then regarded as the world's best non-Korean protoss and 3rd best foreigner worldwide.
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
1. MLG also had the ability to do something about it. Many, many people, including myself, let MLG know how terrible of an idea this format was. Yet, just days before the event instead of making changes they reiterated that that was the way it is. IE. they saw the warnings, but instead of listening to the common sense of how terrible of an idea it was, they ignored them and went ahead. People would have thanked them greatly if they had changed to add more players, or even added a priority...which if you know is how GSL does their qualifier (again, common sense that shouldn't of even needed warning, but they did get one and still went ahead). PS. the technology has been there a long long time to see what league someone is in, it can be an automated process. They had many options of change and plenty of opportunity, they chose not to...this is a first time deal for them and they should have welcomed suggestions and criticisms rather than ignore them.
2. I know they don't understand what people are upset about because they didn't mention it in their 'apology' (how can you expect them to try to solve a problem they don't acknowledge exists). If they thought it was as big a deal as we do, obviously, they would have mentioned it.
3. You're right, they have fucked up a lot and made a lot of apologies, which is why it's safe to say we expected more/better from this one...they have plenty of practice.
4. No one is expecting anything to happen retrospectively, i have no idea where you got that from. I said they titled the apology "how we will improve" implying the future..which is why I was expecting something they are going to do in the future to prevent these situations. Furthermore, many of us have complained about the Challenger format. Did they bother to mention how they are going to take these lessons on to improve that? NO. because they don't even acknowledge them as problems!
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
1. I only saw people bitching about the barrier of entry IE paying to play in it. I also agree they should have increased the size of the playing field. Also changing the format/implementing those type of changes, like you say, days before the event would have probably cause more headaches and might have made things go even worse overall.
2. You are assuming they don't know. Just like I assume that even though they didn't explicitly mention every little detail in their apology doesn't mean they are doing nothing about the problems the community has brought up.
3. People have never complained about there apologies before so why change the format I guess?
4. People are saying "Let comm play his last match" after he has been DQ'd. People were saying MLG should go back and let those who played against the hacker player again while the event was live. There have been others but those were just to stupid to even give a second though to. Again just because they don't mention every single complaint the community has does not mean they haven't acknowledged those issues. I do agree that including how we will improve in the title was a stupid move but I am honestly not caught up on that because I know they will improve. They always have up until this point so why should I doubt them now?
I was bitching about the entry fee because why should AM be the only region to have to pay to play..especially when they could of simply added a priority, which would of fixed/prevented the majority of this (just like GSL already does) and served the same purpose.
I don't assume they don't know..they know (we've made enough noise)...what I assume is that they don't see it as a problem, as evidenced by them not mentioning anything towards the Chinese or any of the players who couldn't get in or any of the players who were knocked out by ppl who were subsequently dq'd.
Again, they say "how we will improve" but don't finish the sentence. If you have faith in them, then that is what sets us apart..they have given me more than enough reason over the past 3 years to doubt them. I'm not going to discuss what they have done in the past because it has already been brought up in many of these threads...the info is around.
We'll see with the challenger who's lacked faith or misplaced faith (o btw, the challenger quali's are invite only and the invitees are based on the premier qualifier)
Where does it say challenger will be invite only? I have never seen it mentioned officially by MLG only unofficially (ie desrow asking about it on twitter)
On April 25 2013 05:13 CounterOrder wrote: Interesting point about Koreans getting in even though they registered later. Wonder where/if Kespa fits into this. We know they got deals with MLG and Blizz.
The whole world wants to see the Chinese play. This is the tourny to not exclude people. They excelled in doing just that however. I could almost shed a tear. My mind is just fucking blown.
I will guarantee you that KeSPA had absolutely nothing to do with it at all seeing as none of the participating players were from KeSPA teams.
Oh, well then, that makes sense why no one has mentioned them. lol
Difference is, that there were a lot more people allowed to participate in EU qualifiers. Also, this should be about fair competition and not about connections to "important" people at MLG. MLG just handled the whole thing unprofessional and intransparent. I really don´t think they should get away with this.
I only agree that not enough people were allowed to participate. MLG did what they felt was the fairest for them and the time frame they had. They obviously made mistakes, and they admitted to them (i.e should have had more spots in the qualifier). If they just had more spots Chinese players would have gotten in. That is that.
So Blizzard told them that they were not allowed to hold the qualifier on Friday? Or the days before that, for that matter.
I assume they didn't want the EU and NA qualifiers to run over each other/be to close. Who knows though. MLG fucked up but people are, IMO, overreacting right now.
Well, I'm sure people will calm down quickly once they get a detailed apology, like that one from the ESL for example.
You thought the ESL apology was detailed? all they said was "First two days could have been better" and they they increased the size of the brackets... or did I read a different "apology" (wasn't really an apology more of an explanation of what they did)
At least they actually did something...MLG's title was "how we will improve" and they didn't say a word about it. The MLG apology was a joke, no matter what you compare it too. What's even more frustrating is that they don't even know what people are most upset about...how can you expect them to change (with out making a large uproar) when they don't even know or acknowledge what was a problem.
ESL had the ABILITY to do something since they had more than one qualifier. How do you know they don't know what people are upset about? Everything people are upset about is because they are assuming way to much. People honestly feel like MLG will fuck up this bad again. Remember the shit storm that was MLG Dallas? MLG gave a similar apology and they next event everything went well. They have a good track record of correcting the mistakes they make (outside extended series). Everyone expecting retroactive fixes are crazy.
1. MLG also had the ability to do something about it. Many, many people, including myself, let MLG know how terrible of an idea this format was. Yet, just days before the event instead of making changes they reiterated that that was the way it is. IE. they saw the warnings, but instead of listening to the common sense of how terrible of an idea it was, they ignored them and went ahead. People would have thanked them greatly if they had changed to add more players, or even added a priority...which if you know is how GSL does their qualifier (again, common sense that shouldn't of even needed warning, but they did get one and still went ahead). PS. the technology has been there a long long time to see what league someone is in, it can be an automated process. They had many options of change and plenty of opportunity, they chose not to...this is a first time deal for them and they should have welcomed suggestions and criticisms rather than ignore them.
2. I know they don't understand what people are upset about because they didn't mention it in their 'apology' (how can you expect them to try to solve a problem they don't acknowledge exists). If they thought it was as big a deal as we do, obviously, they would have mentioned it.
3. You're right, they have fucked up a lot and made a lot of apologies, which is why it's safe to say we expected more/better from this one...they have plenty of practice.
4. No one is expecting anything to happen retrospectively, i have no idea where you got that from. I said they titled the apology "how we will improve" implying the future..which is why I was expecting something they are going to do in the future to prevent these situations. Furthermore, many of us have complained about the Challenger format. Did they bother to mention how they are going to take these lessons on to improve that? NO. because they don't even acknowledge them as problems!
Poor communication and a bad format will once again cause waves of hate toward MLG once the challenger qualifiers roll around.
1. I only saw people bitching about the barrier of entry IE paying to play in it. I also agree they should have increased the size of the playing field. Also changing the format/implementing those type of changes, like you say, days before the event would have probably cause more headaches and might have made things go even worse overall.
2. You are assuming they don't know. Just like I assume that even though they didn't explicitly mention every little detail in their apology doesn't mean they are doing nothing about the problems the community has brought up.
3. People have never complained about there apologies before so why change the format I guess?
4. People are saying "Let comm play his last match" after he has been DQ'd. People were saying MLG should go back and let those who played against the hacker player again while the event was live. There have been others but those were just to stupid to even give a second though to. Again just because they don't mention every single complaint the community has does not mean they haven't acknowledged those issues. I do agree that including how we will improve in the title was a stupid move but I am honestly not caught up on that because I know they will improve. They always have up until this point so why should I doubt them now?
I was bitching about the entry fee because why should AM be the only region to have to pay to play..especially when they could of simply added a priority, which would of fixed/prevented the majority of this (just like GSL already does) and served the same purpose.
I don't assume they don't know..they know (we've made enough noise)...what I assume is that they don't see it as a problem, as evidenced by them not mentioning anything towards the Chinese or any of the players who couldn't get in or any of the players who were knocked out by ppl who were subsequently dq'd.
Again, they say "how we will improve" but don't finish the sentence. If you have faith in them, then that is what sets us apart..they have given me more than enough reason over the past 3 years to doubt them. I'm not going to discuss what they have done in the past because it has already been brought up in many of these threads...the info is around.
We'll see with the challenger who's lacked faith or misplaced faith (o btw, the challenger quali's are invite only and the invitees are based on the premier qualifier)
Where does it say challenger will be invite only? I have never seen it mentioned officially by MLG only unofficially (ie desrow asking about it on twitter)
On April 20 2013 01:53 comabreaded wrote: Does 'WCS America Qualifier 1" indicate that there is more than 1 qualifier? I thought there were 2 qualifiers of 256 players (http://i.imgur.com/rJ9Hpwe.png)? Is there now only 1 qualifier of 512 players, or 2 qualifiers of 512 players?
There will be a 2nd invite only qualifier next weekend to decide the 16 players entering the challenger league.
9th-40th from the Qualifying Tournament 1, will get an invite the 2nd qualifier.
The fact you didn't even know goes to show the continued poor communication I was talking about.
On April 25 2013 04:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Multiple people have, in fact, made a fuss over Puck/LeiYa not getting in. But there are reasons why it's less important, from the point of view of most of the community.
You have a lot to learn about rabble rousing. That is no way to continue stocking furor in a lynch mob. You use this to prove not only is MLG racist but that they hate the LBGT community as well.
Or wait, maybe it is the right plan because if/when something for the Chinese gets announced you can then continue complaining by then bringing up Puck/LeiYa. It's a riskier strat but it is valid.
I am going to do my best to ignore this stupidity forever more and daydream about heads exploding if Edison had come out with a statement that didn't point fingers and play victimology but instead went something like "It was my mistake that I did not get my players registered ASAP and I accept the responsibility that my negligence has cost them this opportunity. I will perform my duties better next season which is about 6 weeks away."
Then again who knows how many Chinese pros would have been able to survive those 6 weeks...
MLG fucked up, and when someone fucks up as severely and with as much implications as MLG did, they need to be held accountable. This isn't a "lynch mob", this is the community expressing its displeasure with how MLG handled WCS NA.
Besides, the Chinese players had been wrongly informed that they were good to go by an MLG admin.
MLG racist but that they hate the LBGT community as well
What? I don't even know how this is relevant to anything.
The WCS America Open Qualifier for Challenger League will feature 512 players competing online in a single elimination bracket and will be FREE to enter. Registration: only Masters and Grandmasters players may register
Registration opens Thursday, April 25 at 5pm ET online. Registration will close on Friday, April 26 at 5pm ET. In order to be included in the bracket, all registered players must check-in between 10:00 AM and 12:30 PM on Saturday, April 27.
Prizing:
Top eight players will advance to play in the Invite-Only Challenger League Qualifier on May 4.
Note: A select group of players will automatically be granted entry into the Open Qualifier including players beaten by competitors who were disqualified in the first WCS America qualifier, and select Chinese players who were not able to compete in the first qualifier.
Edit: The thing i dont get is, why there have to be an Invite-Only Challenger League Qualifier after there was an Open one to find the People. So some players seem to get extra care so they get seeded into something like "second round of the Qualifier", still not equal terms for all players, cause some have to go through 2 Qualifiers. And people who got screwed over in the PremierLeague Qualifier only get into the Open..bla and have to run through 2 Qualifiers now.
Just feels like racism to me. Many many non-chinese players broke rules and didn't get DQ'd. Letting silver league players in instead of chinese pros, letting other pros in who registered AFTER the chinese players...
Hope that chinese players will qualifie to the challenger division. I would say that Blizzard should give some spot directly into the challenger division to chinese players but it would be unfair to other players
yeah great "hey guys, we didn't let you try to qualify for Premier, so hey, we will let you play to try to get into the subleague. Hope you're happy ! Are we even now ?"
Well, I had too little faith apparently (challenger bracket now has an open qualification into the invite-only). but it's still a victory because now they are doing things better (also proves my point that they could of changed on short notice)
They can't repair the fuckups they did 100% so now atleast they do some damage control for the bad treated players. If u get into Challenger in Season1 it's still way better than having to wait for Season2 start to try and qualify for it.
Still i see some problem with the System of OpenQualifier gets 8 places into InviteOnly-Qualifier, how do they select the people who are already in the InviteOnly-Qualifier, if from the PremierLeague Qualifier than its really shady.
On April 25 2013 01:51 Tppz! wrote: i hope blizz will do something about this.even if it needs to get rid of mlg or the current code a qualifier system which is still a huge f***up
I would cheer if MLG lost the rights to host WCS America. NASL all the fucking way. Their worst tournament, NASL Season 2, was far better than the shitshow MLG put on.
On April 25 2013 06:55 semmeL wrote: It's not optimal but better than nothing.
They can't repair the fuckups they did 100% so now atleast they do some damage control for the bad treated players. If u get into Challenger in Season1 it's still way better than having to wait for Season2 start to try and qualify for it.
Still i see some problem with the System of OpenQualifier gets 8 places into InviteOnly-Qualifier, how do they select the people who are already in the InviteOnly-Qualifier, if from the PremierLeague Qualifier than its really shady.
Towards Comm, there's an easy way. Force a best of 7 rematch between him and TheStC. Winner gets the seed that Comm could have earned if MLG's retarded admins didn't disqualify him.
As for those knocked out by PhysicsLee and HyuN, two illegitimate players... give them free Challenger Division seeds.
On April 25 2013 06:55 semmeL wrote: It's not optimal but better than nothing.
They can't repair the fuckups they did 100% so now atleast they do some damage control for the bad treated players. If u get into Challenger in Season1 it's still way better than having to wait for Season2 start to try and qualify for it.
Still i see some problem with the System of OpenQualifier gets 8 places into InviteOnly-Qualifier, how do they select the people who are already in the InviteOnly-Qualifier, if from the PremierLeague Qualifier than its really shady.
Towards Comm, there's an easy way. Force a best of 7 rematch between him and TheStC. Winner gets the seed that Comm could have earned if MLG's retarded admins didn't disqualify him.
As for those knocked out by PhysicsLee and HyuN, two illegitimate players... give them free Challenger Division seeds.
I think the same with Comm and the other statement. But how i know MLG and how they showed to react at first, i don't think that this is realistic.
They also couldve added x-amount of players for a bigger first round in PremierLeague and ran a second Qualifier, better organized, for these spots and let more people drop from Premier into Challenger for the first season. But i don't know if wishing for something like that is realistic.
Still only a Qualfier for a Qualifier not directly into Challenger.... Who are the already invited Players and why, outcome of the PremierLeagueQualifier is really questionable to seed them into the Invite stage of the Qualifier already. Again only 1 Qualifier, so if u run into an unknown Hacker or have tougher Bracket u can still get screwed. They could've run 2 or 4 Qualifiers and give the 8 or 4 top finishers the spots already into the ChallengerLeague itself instead going to play into another Qualifier yet again.
Still only a Qualfier for a Qualifier not directly into Challenger.... Who are the already invited Players and why, outcome of the PremierLeagueQualifier is really questionable to seed them into the Invite stage of the Qualifier already. Again only 1 Qualifier, so if u run into an unknown Hacker or have tougher Bracket u can still get screwed. They could've run 2 or 4 Qualifiers and give the 8 or 4 top finishers the spots already into the ChallengerLeague itself instead going to play into another Qualifier yet again.
Aw snap. I didnt realize it was a qualifier for the challenger i thought they got invited into the challenger.
Still only a Qualfier for a Qualifier not directly into Challenger.... Who are the already invited Players and why, outcome of the PremierLeagueQualifier is really questionable to seed them into the Invite stage of the Qualifier already. Again only 1 Qualifier, so if u run into an unknown Hacker or have tougher Bracket u can still get screwed. They could've run 2 or 4 Qualifiers and give the 8 or 4 top finishers the spots already into the ChallengerLeague itself instead going to play into another Qualifier yet again.
Aw snap. I didnt realize it was a qualifier for the challenger i thought they got invited into the challenger.
hmmmm
Well, if people believed they had a chance to get into Premier they should have no trouble in the "weaker" event. Right?
I Strongly think that the Chinese guys are the ones to stand a chance against Top Koreans cuz of their hard work and dedication but because of things like that the foreign scene looks even more lost against the best of the best
Still only a Qualfier for a Qualifier not directly into Challenger.... Who are the already invited Players and why, outcome of the PremierLeagueQualifier is really questionable to seed them into the Invite stage of the Qualifier already. Again only 1 Qualifier, so if u run into an unknown Hacker or have tougher Bracket u can still get screwed. They could've run 2 or 4 Qualifiers and give the 8 or 4 top finishers the spots already into the ChallengerLeague itself instead going to play into another Qualifier yet again.
Aw snap. I didnt realize it was a qualifier for the challenger i thought they got invited into the challenger.
hmmmm
Well, if people believed they had a chance to get into Premier they should have no trouble in the "weaker" event. Right?
Hahaha if I wanted to pick on this, I'd say that the premier qualifiers included players below masters League, whereas the challenger qualifiers is masters and up, making it a harder event :D
This just sounds like a really bad situation and not just by MLG. That MLG made mistakes with other players, particularly Koreans, is irrelevant to Chinese players.
I might point out in the midst of all the controversy that Chinese players are free to qualify in the EU next time. Or they could always try their luck at GSL. The drift policy also works to allow players to "vote with their feet" what makes them unhappy.
On April 25 2013 10:02 EpicDemente wrote: I Strongly think that the Chinese guys are the ones to stand a chance against Top Koreans cuz of their hard work and dedication but because of things like that the foreign scene looks even more lost against the best of the best
All 3 Chinese players who participated in the Premier qualifier made it into top 12, the only other foreigner to do so is Demuslim. And I believe more than half of the Premier foreign invites can't do it.
We got some superheroes in this thread with a superpower 'selective reading'. Never seen such high levels of this power either! So stronk man. Over 9000
Is there anything else you want to say to the foreign scene or foreign fans?
I want to thank all foreign fans for supporting us on Teamliquid, r/starcraft, and twitch chat after all these unhappy things happened. Because of your support, we will show you more great games to prove our skills and effort. This interview is not to bash MLG; we hope all tournaments could be more professional and mature, less frustrated by bias, whether economical or emotional, because fair play is the core element of e-sports. I just hope everyone will continue to support us and help us claim our deserved tournament rights. Thank all of you very much, we love you.
In a very very selfish way, I am happy that Chinese SC2 scene is dying. I hope they can get an even more dominate position in Dota 2 and hopefully out-compete the Koreans in LoL.
On April 25 2013 02:11 Fatlord wrote: never liked MLG
Blizzard is more to blame than MLG from what I understand, but it's true that MlG fucked up with this qualifier in general.
I don't think blizzard is to blame. They took a hands off approach running the qualifiers because they assumed their partners were competent enough to run an online qualifier. They were right with ESL, but were wrong with MLG. Blizzard is only at fault because they didn't micro manage it, but they shouldn't be expected to because they assumed MLG knew how to run an online qualifier. They were obviously wrong and now they both have egg on their faces.
You know what they say about assuming right? That's like that time I let my kid brother write my history paper. I assumed he knew enough about 16th century politics in the Ottoman empire. It turns out I still got the bad grade.
That's a terrible analogy.
MLG already runs tournaments. Blizzard assumed they would know how to run one properly. It's the same as getting your kid brother who is currently studying 16th century politics in the Ottoman empire in College to write your essay for you, on the material he is currently participating in, and has had plentiful experience with, getting a bad mark.
Also @above, how would the chinese SC2 scene dying help the Dota or LoL scene in any way?
Instead of an apology, MLG has to inform on all these issues he mentioned. What happened with the brackets, why did they change so many times and the exact rules by which everyone was chosen at their final form. What happened with QuanticHyuN What happened with AxCrank
Well, although it's all a bit of a mess, I am glad that people are now becoming really aware of the Chinese scene and Chinese players and everyone is pretty clear now that they must must must be properly accommodated in the future.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what the Chinese pros can do in whatever tournaments they do actually get to play sigh.
I don't always post on TL, but when I do, I want to support global esports. China is already having a difficult time establishing a scene and when they are treated like this, it makes me think that not enough people care.
Actually its his fault that iGXY,iGJim can't participate in the premier league qualifiers, there is nothing to do wif blizzard China.(they focus on WOW i guess.) However MLG did make exceptions for EG players, so the rule was not fully enforced.(and AxCrank leaked results too).
EPT
i want good chinese players back in the action !!!
(o btw, the challenger quali's are invite only and the invitees are based on the premier qualifier)
