On April 11 2013 02:19 Iberville wrote: Meh, if the Koreans feel they can't compete in Korea anymore, it only means that the best of the best in Korea will be competing.
I do feel that it's silly to see so many Koreans competing in a North American regional tournament, however.
Until the round of 32 moves to off line only and they have to find a place to live for two months or more while the event is going on. If its in the Bay Area of California, that could take the wind out of their sails.
Reading the whole CLG thing, Catz rant, and half of the post on this board and this is so silly that it's laughable.
1) Cultivating eSports on the NA/EU Regions.
You can look at it glass half full or glass half empty. It seems like if the glass is completely full, people are going to complain. Completely inane. WCS NA +EU will only promote and encourage players to play more, train harder if they truly aspire to become a progamer Why? It essentially becomes an extra tournament that gives more incentives (with a format that copies the most prestigious league in SC2), along with the MLG weekends, Dreamhack, IEM etc. (Editors note: I wish MLG really did bring back open brackets...even if its an online one for growth). For what reason would a small group of koreans transfer deter sponsorship, deter players from working hard? Because suddenly there's high level players and now all the money seems unattainable?? Is money is sole and only source of motivation to a player?
To all the people that are heads of clans/teams. Look at yourselves and compare yourself to the Korean teams/clans. Practice schedules, team-mates to constantly train with, staff etc. They treat the game seriously and determined to make a profession out of it where the team seeks to make profit from its investment. FXO, Evil Genius and TotalBiscuit's team took the right approach, set up a similar environment. Evil Genius is one massive market now, FXO is in two regions and running smoothly. TB's Axiom team paired with Acer is 2-0 in the GSTL. The NA teams, not all I assure you, treat it most as a past-time and a side-job thing. Not enough investment/fundsso the team never really gets going, doesnt yield a high success rate.
The very fact that korean players are looking at WCS NA and having the approach of "oh look, WCS NA has the same prize pool; easier attainable money! Lets jump ship!" It's a very insult to all the teams, players on this continent disrespecting the skill level (and I assure you, with the right scouting there are terrific players tucked away in this continent!) even if they play with a small disadvantage with lag issues and what not. They should be using as a self-motivating tool with the mentality to play up to par with them, even go beyond where they are to try to even out the playing field and playing up to their competition.
It makes logical sense that gaining sponsorship and funding becomes harder. If there's a little chance to obtaining a high $ of money and little exposure because all your players are of inadequate skill and going to be all knocked out by the Ro16, well fuck, if I was a president of a company I sure wont invest a single cent to your team. But look at a team like MVP, Prime, teams that started with essentially nothing but scraps of noname b-teamers and amateurs with a sketchy bw background but took the right approach slowly but surely built up their regiment of players drawing enough sposnsors to maintain a level of sustainability. Why isnt it possible for the NA teams to follow this model and slowly build up a team fro the bottom up? Why always look for the easy way out?
Look at other sports. Basketball as a prime example. You have the NBA, the Euroleague and then smaller leagues like the Chinese basketball association, Korean basketball association etc. During lock out years that just happened recently you had an influx of NBA stars going to the Euroleague, the CBA and dominating the competition (because..you know they're top of the class) Was there complaints about how this is going to ruin their league because it's going to deter people from trying to make basketball a profession? No. If anything it encouraged. I see the Koreans coming to the NA in the same way.
Let's not forget, outside of Finale, Tails, MVP and Nestea, all the koreans jumping over thus far from the list are NOT from korean-oriented teams. They're foreigner teams that just happens to have koreans within them. So whether if its Polt, Violet Jaedong or JYP, it ultimately helps build up the foreign teams in place and promotes growth.
While it may deter sponsorship to a team, do not count out of the very fact that it may also draw some markets to invest because of the tournament exposure itself. Instead of "Major League Gaming", and "Intel Extreme Masters" a name known to almost everyone in TL but little to the people outside of it; attach the title of "World Championship Series" and "Blizzard" and suddenly it draws appeal for companies to invest to give additional exposure of their product to the audience.Look at FXO and how they have a Europe and Korea division. There is a distinct possibility that rich sponsors like LG, Samsung, may look at the model and be compelled enough to monopolize the market by building team houses in foreign soil, taking in and training local talent with profiteering in mind.
Seriously I do not understand why everyones all pissed about this. Yes, its rushed (and because they're making players make haste decisions and putting players in awkward spots, shame on the organizers for not keeping things orderly as it should be) Yes, the WCS format can be refined and easily improved on...but its not doom and gloom to the esports scene. The head of teams which is complaining about this whole Korean influx to different regions thing, are basically just crying because this was a perfect opportunity to make some easy cash with little monetary investment but it's been essentially stripped away from them and have to develop the talent to get to that point.
To the people who say the prestige of the OSL and GSL is gone. I agree. It's been diluted with 4-5 code sand another 7-8 code A players moving around to different regions. Do not forget the fact of how the WCS is arranged such that at the end of each finals; top 5 from each region meet up at an offline event anyway so the best of the best would still end up playing each other.
On April 10 2013 22:23 avilo wrote: This is pretty terrible lmao. The entire point of WCS and this initiative was to get other countries/regions to have an ecosystem of their own, as well as infuse prize money that those players in those regions could feasibly win.
Instead, what we have set up is a system where blizzard basically said, "here koreans, free moneys, foreigners...screw you." Perhaps that was not their intention, but that's going to be the result.
So what is the incentive here for people to train, and invest their own money to go to events, etc? You know a korean with 10x the training, a team house, team backing will be at the event.
Oh wait, I got that wrong. Instead of a few like previously, now it's going to be 15+ all here to take your region's cash lol.
This is insanely stupid. Imagine the Olympics allowing NBA teams to play "in any region." I can imagine it now.
"Welcome to the 2016 Olympic basketball finals! Your finalists, China's LA lakers, Russia's Boston Celtics, Canada's Clippers," wait a minute...what happened to the other countries basketball teams?
How does this prevent the various regions to have their own ecosystem in any way?
How does Blizzard offering "foreigners" (though I don't understand the relevance of "foreigners" in this context) a chance to win more money by playing a game translate into "foreigner... screw you"?
What the incentive is? Good question. However, given the amount of cash available, I sure do hope these people don't train and go to events to make a living, as 99% of them will never manage such, despite the extra money Blizzard is putting on the table. I hope that it's, like in any sport, the fact that they enjoy the game and enjoy being competitive. Training to earn cash only becomes relevant after you've gone professional.
Your region's cash? First of all, what the hell makes you feel so entitled to that money? Though more importantly maybe, why should people from with different nationalities not be allowed to participate in a tournament located in "your region"? Sure it's good to also have national championships, however, this never was intended to be such.
NBA teams at the Olympics? You really have a hard time understanding competitive sports, don't you? Besides, if you look at other sports like you do, this luckily happens all the time. Half of the average football squad consists of foreign players. They improve quality, mix things up and keep the leagues interesting. I'm pretty certain the premier league wouldn't be the most entertaining competition in the world if it weren't for this.
Obviously Blizzard isn't doing thing perfectly, but it seems a good effort at setting up a global league system, something that has direly been missing in SC2. It's basically the next step towards having a truly professional competitive scene. It's good (EVEN if only for the extra cash spent). What ever mistakes they make, they'll learn from those. All this bitching and whining is totally uncalled for (without meaning to say we shouldn't give feedback, once we bump into issues, not before) - even though I realise it was inevitable, given how entitled and narrow minded this community has seem to become.
It is not rocket science to understand. Blizzard intended this to help stimulate each region's player base, not turn NA into Korea2, and EU into Korea3.
You're one of those people that has no clue. You're blanket calling people "entitled and narrow minded." You don't see the larger picture, that this does not help facilitate NA/EU growth.
Apparently, you also have no understanding of real sports or progression systems. You don't join a local basketball qualifer tournament and have to play against Lebron James straight away if you're a basketball player. That would be ridiculous.
You start with your local region, you win that, you go to regionals, then national level, pro level, etc. There has to be a progression.
Yes, professional sports have athletes from other countries, but you're dellusional if you think that players from other countries are joining another countries NATIONAL TEAM. Sports do not work like that.
Read Catz post from reddit. He basically covers and echos the thoughts of rational minded people in the foreign scene.
You might be sad that top level players in each region will have to be imported from Korea on the short run, but this doesn't turn said region into Korea2 or 3 - if only because those players moving there won't be in Korea anymore. Having a top division that's worth watching in fact helps the local competition.
And there we have it. Top division. You even mention the topic yourself: progression system! The WCS is not a local basketball qualifier. It's a place where the absolute best compete, in order to give a great show, a showcase of the sport.
I'm all for having such a progression system, and so seems Blizzard, as this seems to be exactly what they're trying to create here, starting by setting up the top layers.
However, I don't get why you think this means they ought to set up charity matches exclusively for American or European players. This seems to be the main point you're not getting. This is the Champions League, not the World Cup or some national tournament. Perhaps you don't like it, but that's what they're offering. (Not to get me wrong, a large scale world cup sounds awesome as well.) Edit: Also, for all existing sports, you can sign yourself or your team into a local competition and compete. This doesn't depend on your nationality in any way.
Catz makes some interesting point and I see where he's coming from (there's plenty I disagree with a well), and there's no one saying the international competitive SC2 scene is perfect right now. However, this won't be fixed that easily, and while there are other things that can and should be done, these effort on the WCS are definitely a good thing and a step in the right direction. To give one example, Koreans moving to NA/EU will create an competition worth watching, while also result in them bringing the Korean esports knowledge/mentality/(team house)infrastructure to these places. Local players will benefit a lot more from this than giving the top 3 NA/EU players a little bit of cash.
Ps. "its not rocket science", "you're one of those people that has no clue", "you have no understanding", "you don't see the larger picture", "you're delusional", "rational people" while not posting a single good point and failing to understand a word I write... kind of sad. Makes me think... Kind of sad I'm still trying to explain as well.
You still don't seem to grasp the concept of local/regional/national events and organizations that help grow a scene within that community. No one is arguing they don't want to see the best players play.
This league is meant to promote regional play, meaning the best of the best from that region fight it out and then fight the top dogs (aka the koreans).
What it's not supposed to be is you just import koreans, destroy all local competition that has no chance to develop, and then say, "job well done, all the best players are playing."
The point is basically flying way over your head. It's about developing the NA/EU scenes. You have no "free money" argument. The local competition earns those prizes.
Also, spectators want people to root for. Not just koreans. That's another thing you don't seem to get. How the fuck do you think this "e-sport" looks to people outside of this niche viewing audience/market? "Oh, wow, all koreans...let's go watch NFL, this asian stuff is boring." -> that's an outsider perspective or the common person that is not a massively educated viewer.
You seem to think this is about "giving NA/EU players free cash" then yes, you're missing the entire point. Your point of view is very short sighted, or you must be in your teens and not understand how the real world works.
On April 11 2013 02:11 tuho12345 wrote: this bullshit thing is gonna hurt GSL code S so badly. Fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, GSL won't be the same anymore without MVP, MC, Nestea, MMA
They're the old generation who left because they knew they didn't have what it takes to compete at the top level anymore. They weren't going to win any more GSLs, as hard as it is to hear and accept for some die-hard fans. Majority of them were in Code B, a few in Code A, only 2 were still in Code S. There are dozens of players to replace them, and more will come.
Those who think otherwise will see in the seasonal finals, the GSL Koreans will dominate, they're the best of the best.
The people complaining are blind to say they least. We all have known korean players were gonna move after this announcement, because Code S now is a qualifier for WCS, like code A was for code S. So, the gsl code s isnt the best of the best anymore, that will be WCS blizzard.
U could even say your subscriptons to gomtv.net are a waste of money in the future, as blizzard will host the new code S (best of the best), and gomtv only shows qualifiers, are u gonna pay for qualifiers with not the best of the best?
Blizzard will come with a subscription model to view the qualifiers of code s NA, KR and EU, dont worry. It's all logical.... But i still feel like this format would be best for the future, to bas code s now, is a waste..
On April 11 2013 02:09 ZeromuS wrote: I am no longer excited for WCS. Oh I will watch, I will enjoy but seriously this just shows how strong a hold Korea appears to have over Blizzard. Stronger competition? Yup. Give them more money to reflect that.
I dont see why we cant grow the local scenes. In two years no one from NA will be competing at a decent level and very few from EU. What motivation does some 15 year old kid have when all he has is NA ladder and no prospects of anywhere to go?
Some might say that the reason he's got no prospect is because teams prefer recruiting Koreans instead of growing local talents.
It's been Koreans winning the larger foreign tournaments for a while now (it's been almost 2 years since MLG Columbus where MMA/Losira/MC placed 1-3). How has this news changed anything regarding the life of the foreign scene?
WCS last year was a nice opportunity for local heroes to earn some fame, but it didn't prepare them to die to Parting's soul train. If they're gonna have equal prize pools for each region, it would be awfully dumb to be handing out cash to foreigners so they can earn more money than better Korean players who went out in the ro32 in Korea. Plus, as stated, Koreans have been taking money for a while now.
Blizzard can't kill something already dead. With any luck, as they stated in the recent Morhaime interview, this will increase the quality of practice outside Korea. The current system isn't working.
This is going to be a hilarious "the sky is falling" thread, I can already tell. Like we all won't be watching these incredible games. Sorry you won't be able to watch Random NA Player #467 lose 3-0.
On April 11 2013 01:53 Dexington wrote: Sweet, WCS NA is now GSL. Blizzard has effectively killed the NA scene in my opinion by allowing this many Koreans to play in NA.
Hey now, there wasn't much of a scene to ruin. While this is still nowhere near what it should have been (i.e a proper NA GSL), it's still much better than the nothing they had before.
The tournament fucked over most by this is the GSL and the Korean scene which just lost a bunch of great players.
They didn't "lose" them. The players choose to go outside of Korea in the hope of making money. How does that fuck over the Korean scene? If anything, it leaves room for new players to make a name for themselves. As far as I can tell, this means more money from outside Korea to Korean players.
There will probably need to be a culling of heads in the Korean SC2 scene, but that is because there are too many SC2 progamers and because SC2 is not very popular in SK. The home market is not able to support them. NOT because of Blizzard.
A lot of us liked having a tournament which was just the pure best of the best all the time no exceptions. We had that in Code S, we don't have that anymore.
On April 11 2013 00:46 vesicular wrote: Does nobody else realize that almost half of that NA list is EG-TL players? And that EG-TL players doing well is NA is great for teams like EG as a whole and TL, the site you're f'n POSTING on?
The stupidity of this forum is impressive to say the least.
Lol, just noticed that too.
As long as people are thinking entirely on the present and near future about their biases and wallets, stupid outcries like this are always bound to happen.
I'm pretty sure every NA pro had a raging boner that was immediately killed because they realized that they might actually have to compete for prize money. Once their perceived injury has been accepted through all the stages of grief they will realize that this is very good news for the long term. Blizzard didn't owe anyone anything of this scale, nor the money they injected into it. What makes NA/EU players more entitled to this money when they weren't really winning any of the big tournaments anyway? If this hadn't been done as it is Koreans would keep widening the gap until it became BW 2.0, and then no one would have any chance and SC2 would become a Seoul centered niche attraction.
Just because they can't cash in asap obviously means that it has already failed and that their is no hope, /s. True, the short term does not alleviate the immediate concerns, but in the end the outcome will hopefully reveal a much more internationally competitive and sustainable endeavor. Immediate and strict region locks would actually kill that off and it might be decades, if ever, until the 2nd rate NA/EU scenes might even take a single game off a KR in Global Finals.
Blizzard has stated, numerous times very clearly that they intend to transition into fully region locked offline only tournaments. I already shared my view on why this is significantly beneficial. If these pros are suggesting that they might as well retire because of the WCS system, then they should have done it a year ago. But looking at the prize distribution of these regional WCS it seems to me that these foreigners have a greater chance of winning more money more often than they have this entire past year. Subjective bias is always present and constant, and the level of idiotic statements reflect that.
How the fuck are people that aren't pro in NA supposed to beat these players ? These players can afford to practice 10 hours a day in team houses where they don't need to worry about paying bills or even cooking food or cleaning because they have a maid that does it.
If you try to play 10 hours a day in NA you can't because NA doesn't have the infrastructure that Korea has, you don't have a team backing you or a job for money you're gonna starve trying to keep up with the Koreans that are farming NA for money.
I think your idea is great that the people who can't keep up in the scene should just retire and people that can't break through because they have zero opportunities to shine and have to play against players that can practice 10 hours a day without worrying about anything else.
Instead of growing the NA scene we're just gonna slowly see it die out, sure there will be a few pros left that have the teams so they can practice but no one else is going to make it.
Ok, let's say WCS wasn't announced and Blizzard did nothing to change the status quo. What then? Oh right, and I'm going to quote you: "Instead of growing the NA scene we're just gonna slowly see it die out, sure there will be a few pros left that have the teams so they can practice but no one else is going to make it."
Long run
Long term
Ostensibly bad
Eventually good
"How the fuck are people that aren't pro in NA supposed to beat these players ? These players can afford to practice 10 hours a day in team houses where they don't need to worry about paying bills or even cooking food or cleaning because they have a maid that does it." - Blizzard wants to make this a reality. To expect that it will happen in 5 months? Please, have realistic expectations. I don't want to explain something I've already written in this thread so I kindly ask you, for my sake, to read my earlier post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407158¤tpage=56#1113
If Blizzard didn't want to someone else would have tried, It's great that Blizzard is making this effort and I was fucking excited when I read about it, it doesn't mean that the system they are creating can't be criticized. WCS was awesome last year and I actually learned about a lot of NA players that I had never really heard of because of it. There is no way that it will happen in 5 months, but with the way they are doing it now it's NEVER going to be a reality because people can't even dream about it when they're going to get beat down by players who have more time and a better environment to practice.
I read your previous post but I don't understand how Blizzard is going to create infrastructure to have everything offline with what they're doing now, I wish I could ask someone at Blizzard what their plan is because I can't figure it out. I don't see how a team like LG - IM could afford to relocate to a team house in Germany because it will be a lot more expensive then the one in Korea with travel costs included, also the esf teams don't have that much money, I think if we grow the NA scene and get more team houses in NA then LG - IM can partner up with them and have some players move over just like foreigners do now. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the combined SKLG - IM has enough money to do it Europe.
On April 11 2013 02:17 ronpaul012 wrote: Congrats to blizzard on completely mismanaging this tournament. The original idea is to have local tournaments and leagues for each location. While the message never seemed to change, they are now changing it to just 3 code S around the world. The better players will be winning more money, but that seems to be the complete opposite of what the intention for the WCS as initially.
On April 11 2013 00:46 vesicular wrote: Does nobody else realize that almost half of that NA list is EG-TL players? And that EG-TL players doing well is NA is great for teams like EG as a whole and TL, the site you're f'n POSTING on?
The stupidity of this forum is impressive to say the least.
Lol, just noticed that too.
As long as people are thinking entirely on the present and near future about their biases and wallets, stupid outcries like this are always bound to happen.
I'm pretty sure every NA pro had a raging boner that was immediately killed because they realized that they might actually have to compete for prize money. Once their perceived injury has been accepted through all the stages of grief they will realize that this is very good news for the long term. Blizzard didn't owe anyone anything of this scale, nor the money they injected into it. What makes NA/EU players more entitled to this money when they weren't really winning any of the big tournaments anyway? If this hadn't been done as it is Koreans would keep widening the gap until it became BW 2.0, and then no one would have any chance and SC2 would become a Seoul centered niche attraction.
Just because they can't cash in asap obviously means that it has already failed and that their is no hope, /s. True, the short term does not alleviate the immediate concerns, but in the end the outcome will hopefully reveal a much more internationally competitive and sustainable endeavor. Immediate and strict region locks would actually kill that off and it might be decades, if ever, until the 2nd rate NA/EU scenes might even take a single game off a KR in Global Finals.
Blizzard has stated, numerous times very clearly that they intend to transition into fully region locked offline only tournaments. I already shared my view on why this is significantly beneficial. If these pros are suggesting that they might as well retire because of the WCS system, then they should have done it a year ago. But looking at the prize distribution of these regional WCS it seems to me that these foreigners have a greater chance of winning more money more often than they have this entire past year. Subjective bias is always present and constant, and the level of idiotic statements reflect that.
How the fuck are people that aren't pro in NA supposed to beat these players ? These players can afford to practice 10 hours a day in team houses where they don't need to worry about paying bills or even cooking food or cleaning because they have a maid that does it.
If you try to play 10 hours a day in NA you can't because NA doesn't have the infrastructure that Korea has, you don't have a team backing you or a job for money you're gonna starve trying to keep up with the Koreans that are farming NA for money.
I think your idea is great that the people who can't keep up in the scene should just retire and people that can't break through because they have zero opportunities to shine and have to play against players that can practice 10 hours a day without worrying about anything else.
Instead of growing the NA scene we're just gonna slowly see it die out, sure there will be a few pros left that have the teams so they can practice but no one else is going to make it.
Ok, let's say WCS wasn't announced and Blizzard did nothing to change the status quo. What then? Oh right, and I'm going to quote you: "Instead of growing the NA scene we're just gonna slowly see it die out, sure there will be a few pros left that have the teams so they can practice but no one else is going to make it."
Long run
Long term
Ostensibly bad
Eventually good
"How the fuck are people that aren't pro in NA supposed to beat these players ? These players can afford to practice 10 hours a day in team houses where they don't need to worry about paying bills or even cooking food or cleaning because they have a maid that does it." - Blizzard wants to make this a reality. To expect that it will happen in 5 months? Please, have realistic expectations. I don't want to explain something I've already written in this thread so I kindly ask you, for my sake, to read my earlier post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407158¤tpage=56#1113
If Blizzard didn't want to someone else would have tried, It's great that Blizzard is making this effort and I was fucking excited when I read about it, it doesn't mean that the system they are creating can't be criticized. WCS was awesome last year and I actually learned about a lot of NA players that I had never really heard of because of it. There is no way that it will happen in 5 months, but with the way they are doing it now it's NEVER going to be a reality because people can't even dream about it when they're going to get beat down by players who have more time and a better environment to practice.
I read your previous post but I don't understand how Blizzard is going to create infrastructure to have everything offline with what they're doing now, I wish I could ask someone at Blizzard what their plan is because I can't figure it out. I don't see how a team like LG - IM could afford to relocate to a team house in Germany because it will be a lot more expensive then the one in Korea with travel costs included, also the esf teams don't have that much money, I think if we grow the NA scene and get more team houses in NA then LG - IM can partner up with them and have some players move over just like foreigners do now. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the combined SKLG - IM has enough money to do it Europe.
LG-IM has ~10 sponsors...... Not all eSF teams are broke you know.
Don't know if this was in the information, but since parts of the league in US/EU is played online, is that just done on good faith? That no one helps the player during their matches?
On April 11 2013 02:11 tuho12345 wrote: this bullshit thing is gonna hurt GSL code S so badly. Fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, GSL won't be the same anymore without MVP, MC, Nestea, MMA
They're the old generation who left because they knew they didn't have what it takes to compete at the top level anymore. They weren't going to win any more GSLs, as hard as it is to hear and accept for some die-hard fans. Majority of them were in Code B, a few in Code A, only 2 were still in Code S. There are dozens of players to replace them, and more will come.
Those who think otherwise will see in the seasonal finals, the GSL Koreans will dominate, they're the best of the best.
Whoever thinks Nestea/MVP would regain the Code S seed is in delusion. MVP's wrist are nearly done. Nestea's mechanics are too poor to compete with the current players who may now possess his creative mind but has the mechanics to downright outplay him. MMA hasnt done a single thing after he lost his personal coach and a fringe Code A player. MC is the one big surprise but he's his own team, and he chose to go after the $ than trying to become the top of the toughest mountain, because he's already gone through the phase where he's been the top of the mountain already.
EPT
Like we all won't be watching these incredible games. Sorry you won't be able to watch Random NA Player #467 lose 3-0.
