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On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean?
well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers.
so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^
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On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^
That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion (everyone meaning all players in korea...or is it just koreans in korea...basically this seems like a non-answer for situations like scarlett, nothing new has been said depending on the persons interpretation)
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I think GSL prize pool is $100,000 + sponsor money.
According to Liquipedia,GSL prize pool is $160,000.
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On April 09 2013 01:41 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^ That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion
Because the Korean Pros are already locked into playing if they are in code A or have going to compete in code A qualifiers. They and their teams have a very limited amount of time to make the decision. The NA and EU qualifiers have not be announced yet, so the other players have more time before they lock themselves in.
Its going to be a rough take off for WCS and its not going to be perfectly fair. Still, there has been nothing worth freaking out about and people should just wait until all the information is out there before losing their minds.
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On April 09 2013 01:41 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^ That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion (everyone meaning all players in korea...or is it just koreans in korea...basically this seems like a non-answer for situations like scarlett, nothing new has been said depending on the persons interpretation)
i really think their announcement is pretty clear, it says:
"If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so"
dont know what more to say about that, every player who is playing in this season of gsl (that includes qualifiers) can switch if he wants to. players who dont play in gsl can switch no matter what, so its at the end of the day all players in korea.
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On April 08 2013 23:24 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays. The only reason they even had the finals in China was so that they could try and get more customers there, if WoW or SC2 would take a steady foothold in china then blizzards revenu would double. But you can live in your fairytale world where you think blizzard is doing this for the greater good and for the health of the community, when in fact its all just another way for them to try and get in on some of the esports money whilst advertising the rest of their games. Recap of last years WCS finals: Lights go dark, epic music playing.. the hundreds of thousands of viewers are sitting at the edge of their seat after the long wait and poor production.... A light goes off at the stage and in comes a Panda, a Demon Hunter and that ghost girl from the sc2 campaign.. they hop around on stage for about 20 minutes... then comes the mist of pandaria traier for the 20th time. Then a blizzard official comes out on stage and says "thank you for your support.. oh and btw here are some matches"....
In case you forgot, there was a WoW arena tournament or something like that at WCS too, it wasn't just SC2. It makes sense that WoW stuff would be going on and displayed if there's a WoW tournament.
And I just absolutely love your logic/lack of understanding of business. Blizzard advertising THEIR products at THEIR event that THEY put together. OMG STOP THE PRESSES BLIZZARD IS EVIL WE MUST STOP THEM! They just want to make money OMG stop Blizzard from making money with their game omg Blizzard MUST be stopped.
It almost sounds like you think Blizzard trying to earn money while simultaneously attempting to improve SC2 E-sports(yes that is actually what they are doing, no one hands out 1.6 million dollars for shits and giggles or whatever ridiculous conspiracy theories you can come up with) NEWSFLASH: the goal of any business is TO MAKE MONEY. If this does system accomplishes that and improves SC2 esports then they have done right. E
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hmm, all i read is "we are working on it..."
they should have worked out all the (exact) details before they made that announcement. now it feels like they are rushing in to something they didnt thought through.
but well, thats just my opinion ^^
edit: but please dont get me wrong, its great to see that blizzard finally put more efforts into e-sports and i am excited to see what is going to happen in 2013/wcs 
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i am the only who thinks he says nothing new? only specify few thing like the prize, but not the final answer...
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On April 09 2013 01:53 cladoliver wrote:
i am the only who thinks he says nothing new? only specify few thing like the prize, but not the final answer...
Yes, that is why he follows it up with the statement, "we will have more for you tomorrow." And then they follow up it up saying that they will have a "Reddit AMA regarding WCS" in the near future.
People need to take a deep breath and wait for information.
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On April 09 2013 01:49 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:24 Fizzy wrote:On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays. The only reason they even had the finals in China was so that they could try and get more customers there, if WoW or SC2 would take a steady foothold in china then blizzards revenu would double. But you can live in your fairytale world where you think blizzard is doing this for the greater good and for the health of the community, when in fact its all just another way for them to try and get in on some of the esports money whilst advertising the rest of their games. Recap of last years WCS finals: Lights go dark, epic music playing.. the hundreds of thousands of viewers are sitting at the edge of their seat after the long wait and poor production.... A light goes off at the stage and in comes a Panda, a Demon Hunter and that ghost girl from the sc2 campaign.. they hop around on stage for about 20 minutes... then comes the mist of pandaria traier for the 20th time. Then a blizzard official comes out on stage and says "thank you for your support.. oh and btw here are some matches".... In case you forgot, there was a WoW arena tournament or something like that at WCS too, it wasn't just SC2. It makes sense that WoW stuff would be going on and displayed if there's a WoW tournament. And I just absolutely love your logic/lack of understanding of business. Blizzard advertising THEIR products at THEIR event that THEY put together. OMG STOP THE PRESSES BLIZZARD IS EVIL WE MUST STOP THEM! They just want to make money OMG stop Blizzard from making money with their game omg Blizzard MUST be stopped. It almost sounds like you think Blizzard trying to earn money while simultaneously attempting to improve SC2 E-sports(yes that is actually what they are doing, no one hands out 1.6 million dollars for shits and giggles or whatever ridiculous conspiracy theories you can come up with) NEWSFLASH: the goal of any business is TO MAKE MONEY. If this does system accomplishes that and improves SC2 esports then they have done right. E
I dont see anywhere in my post where i wrote that blizzard is evil or that they should not be able to advertise their games at their events. All i did was respond to the previous poster that blizzard doesnt cough up 1.6mil for the good of esports without expecting a profit.
However if the "blizzard is evil"-part you are refering to is me saying they are trying to controll the SC2 esportscene then ur entierly correct. The starcraft community has been gathering pitchforks and lighting torches for more than a decade in order to mob up against oppressors like KeSPA when they were limiting what tournaments the players could attend and how the Broodwar scene was run in korea. Only difference now is that Blizzard is taking a slightly lighter approach and only limiting players to different regions and saying other organizers cant run events on WCS weekends.
Perhaps next year there will be WCS months, or perhaps they will integrate DH, NASL and IronSquid aswell and prevent other organisers from making events at all, who knows.
All im saying is that when big organisations (or in this case even the company behind the game) steps in and try to controll what is happening in order to dictate everything, its not a positive thing.
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If the GSL and OSL have more prize money to give, then they can host tournaments in Seoul, just like MLG and ESL will continue to host major non-WCS tournaments in NA and EU. It's their decision to tie up so much of their resources in GSTL and Proleague. Having the most prestigious team leagues is a big reason why they have an infrastructure that produces so many more higher quality players in the first place. Asking for Blizzard to just give them more money for individual leagues is ridiculous.
edit: Also, posting on reddit and not battle.net or tl.net? I can understand Blizzard's desire to have their big Q&A on /r/AMA in order to reach new people, but for these small informative updates, post on TL and b.net.
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On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership.
Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
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is this... is this... the first time REDDIT IS THE SOURCE OF NEWS ON TEAMLIQUID.NET???
Wow!
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On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
It's a little of both. I watch the GSL, but my girlfriend only watches events where EG, Huk(pre-EG) Grubby play in. Why? Because she likes them and doesn't really care about the GSL(unless Huk is there). In the limited sample set of our house, we have both parties.
This simple fact of the matter is that EG can pull in over 10K in viewers between Incontrol, Idra, Demuslim and Stephano and night. Gubby had 9K yesterday. There is an audience for just NA and EU players and there is an audience an event that focuses on those players. There is a section of TL that is obsessed with Korean players and believes that any event without them will fail. However, there is also a section of equal size that could not give a fuck.
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On April 09 2013 02:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely. It's a little of both. I watch the GSL, but my girlfriend only watches events where EG, Huk(pre-EG) Grubby play in. Why? Because she likes them and doesn't really care about the GSL(unless Huk is there). In the limited sample set of our house, we have both parties. This simple fact of the matter is that EG can pull in over 10K in viewers between Incontrol, Idra, Demuslim and Stephano and night. Gubby had 9K yesterday. There is an audience for just NA and EU players and there is an audience an event that focuses on those players. There is a section of TL that is obsessed with Korean players and believes that any event without them will fail. However, there is also a section of equal size that could not give a fuck.
Yeah, no doubt about it. There are certainly ideal conditions for max viewers. Usually that being a field of strong Koreans and a fan-favorite foreigner or two having a good run and beating some of them.
I don't really agree that what makes a good individual streamer correlates to tournament interest in that player. I love watching Incontrol and Grubby streaming because they offer their viewers more than just first person perspective of their games. You get humor, lots of commentary, and some Q&A which are often as interesting if not more interesting than the games themselves.
I think that often the Korean-fetishism of a small but rabid minority gets conflated with the desire to watch the strongest possible players regardless of their nationality. It just so happens that all of those players are basically Korean and I think that the number of viewers who are interested in that particular aspect of a tournament may be the largest demographic of all.
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On April 09 2013 02:01 NonY wrote:
If the GSL and OSL have more prize money to give, then they can host tournaments in Seoul, just like MLG and ESL will continue to host major non-WCS tournaments in NA and EU. It's their decision to tie up so much of their resources in GSTL and Proleague. Having the most prestigious team leagues is a big reason why they have an infrastructure that produces so many more higher quality players in the first place. Asking for Blizzard to just give them more money for individual leagues is ridiculous.
edit: Also, posting on reddit and not battle.net or tl.net? I can understand Blizzard's desire to have their big Q&A on /r/AMA in order to reach new people, but for these small informative updates, post on TL and b.net.
Or alternatively, if the GSL rewards are high enough we could have all the best players in the world playing eachother on a regular basis in games they prepared for instead of only seeing the 3 scenes interact in weekend tournaments. You can then have NA/EU tournaments (with good, but lesser rewards) feed into the 'main' GSL-style tournament. This WCS structure just dilutes competition at the highest level, the WCS tournaments are going to be a letdown with poor games until the koreans + 1 or 2 good foreigners meet eachother and even then won't compare to GSL prep games. And then, depending on the pts allocation we could see the same thing all over again at the blizzcon finals.
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On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
The American tournaments have done that to a large degree, the European not so much.
But then, what about WCS Europe, the event with the largest official viewer-number in recent history? And who are the most popular streamers again?
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A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad.
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On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad.
And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds.
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On April 09 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad. And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds.
Liquipedia probably just took that number from season 1. I don't know how it's possible to interpret what Blizzard said any other way. What they're saying is pretty clear, all WCS tournaments will have equal prize pool and that's 100K for regional championship. Blizzard isn't saying "we'll give them each 100K, it's up to them to set the prize". GSL is WCS Korea, thus GSL's prize pool is 100K.
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EPT
