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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
A Brief Q&A Regarding WCS 2013 by cloaken
Hello everyone - Over the past week we have received numerous questions about the announcements made concerning WCS 2013 . Though we will not be able to get to them all in this one short post, we did want to at least bring some attention to the ones we have been hearing the most, especially as it relates to Season 1 of this year. Please do continue to ask your questions in whatever method you feel most convenient ( Reddit, Twitter , the StarCraft forums , etc.), we are following WCS conversations very closely and will continue to do our best to answer concerns as they arise. Thank you for your patience as we all work through these changes. We are excited about where they are taking us and look forward to an amazing conclusion to WCS 2013 at BlizzCon this November! Is it possible to see a calendar for the entire year? When do Seasons 1, 2, 3 start in every region?We are working hard on compiling a complete calendar for the entire year, in the meantime we plan to announce the start dates for Season 1 of the NA and EU leagues tomorrow night. We understand that players and teams need to schedule their time for the rest of the year, and we will do our best to post the dates for Seasons 2 and 3 shortly after. What are the key differences between the KR, EU, and NA leagues?Our goal has been to make the leagues as identical as possible in terms of structure, based on the GSL model. As a result of working with different league partners, there will be minor format differences that arise based on the legacy of a particular league. How does a brand new player who wants to compete in WCS get involved?In general, we are working to adopt a similar process in each region based off of GSL's three-division "Code" structure. Each regional league will have three divisions ( Qualifier, Challenger, and Premier) that will feed into each other. In regards to Season 1 of this year, GSL is operating per usual and will continue moving into future seasons. For North America and EU, we will be announcing the plans surrounding Season 1 this week but it will likely include some invitations as well as an open qualification. Thanks for your patience. We know everyone is anxious to get this information, and we're working hard to get it to you as quickly as we can. Are the prize pools the same between the leagues?Yes. All of the regional leagues will have identical prize pools and point distribution. The prize pool breakdown for the remaining part of 2013 is as follows: - Each Regional WCS League - $100,000
- Each Global Season Finals - $150,000
- WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon - $250,000
In regards to NA and EU, how does a player qualify for Season 1 "Premier League"?As we mentioned in the question above, we are working hard to get the exact details out to you as soon as we can. In short, Season 1 will be an exception and will likely include some invitations that we will send to top players in each region as well as open qualifiers, but all future seasons will adopt a three-division system (Qualifier, Challenger, and Premiere) that will appropriately qualify players into the top division for future seasons. Have you considered a residency requirement for the Leagues? Wouldn't it make sense to require players who are playing in your region's tournament to live in your country?We have discussed residency requirement but feel that this would add additional complexity, especially for players outside of the three main regions, and particularly for 2013. This is the kind of thing we'd really like to avoid if at all possible. Many people feel that the abrupt global change, combined with locking players to the region they play in for the entire year, is remarkably unfair to KR players, especially those currently competing in GSL?We too agree that Korean players currently playing in GSL were put in a difficult situation regarding making a year-long commitment to a WCS league as GSL started right on the heels of our announcement. With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. What is the point system?We are working hard to finalize all the details surrounding the WCS points system. At the moment, we are mostly ironing out exactly how points earned outside the WCS leagues will integrate into the system. We should be able to announce the initial system next week, although some some adjustments will probably need to happen as we move forward. How lucrative (in terms of points) is it to compete in a tournament like NASL, DreamHack, or Iron Squid?Players who qualify for the World Championship at BlizzCon will have to compete in the WCS. That said, points earned from outside the WCS Leagues should be meaningful in terms of qualification and seeding at that tournament, especially for those who might be on the edge of qualifying. How much of the tournaments for each season will be played online?The intention is that most of the Premiere league (all in the case of WCS KR) for each region will be played offline in a studio, but we are working with MLG and ESL on the details. We might need to have additional online matches in 2013 based on logistical challenges that may arise. What steps is Blizzard taking to ensure that cheating/hacking is not going to take place for matches played online?Our goal is to minimize the number of online matches and eventually to eliminate the need for them, for as long as online matches will take place we will be taking great precaution to monitor and ensure fair play. We will be working with our tournament partners to ensure best practices and the integrity of each league. We are aware that there are certainly questions that remain. As another step in process, Blizzard is intending to host a Reddit AMA regarding WCS, so please stay tuned for the exact details in the coming days!
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thx for this - i hope marineking will do well...
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i really dont like the equal prize pool across all regions........korea is so much harder =(
edit: unless its wcs prizepool on top of gsl/osl prize pool? can anyone confirm that?
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Nice they told us something but it still seems like a lot of the big questions haven't been answered. I hope the GSL prize pool currently has the 100k added to it or it's a pretty big decrease in money.
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On April 08 2013 15:39 recklessfire wrote:
i really dont like the equal prize pool across all regions........korea is so much harder =(
edit: unless its wcs prizepool on top of gsl/osl prize pool? can anyone confirm that?
Agree maybe some kinda salary for them would be nice
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Hmmm, this whole thing is kind of weird.
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A bigger prizepool for KR vs NA and EU would be amazing, it would at least provide some incentive for more Koreans to play in their home turf.
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On April 08 2013 15:57 dgwow wrote:
A bigger prizepool for KR vs NA and EU would be amazing, it would at least provide some incentive for more Koreans to play in their home turf.
its necessary for that prizepool to be distributed more evenly towards the lower leagues so its worth it to stay in and attempt code a/b in korea, but if its top heavy again, then it doesnt really solve anything........
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On April 08 2013 15:35 juicyjames wrote:A Brief Q&A Regarding WCS 2013 by cloakenShow nested quote +
What are the key differences between the KR, EU, and NA leagues?
Our goal has been to make the leagues as identical as possible in terms of structure, based on the GSL model. As a result of working with different league partners, there will be minor format differences that arise based on the legacy of a particular league.
[/i]
Extended series for WCS NA? 
Hoping that the prizepool for Korea is bigger as well..
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The GSL system is rly good. I'm lookin foward to watch the EU premier league, there would so many interesting story-lines.
They also talked about a lot of matches offline, thats good, i hope there is something in Paris or in France.
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China6329 Posts
Glad to see a lot of important questions asked, so we can watch Scarlett play in Code A qualifiers now?
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All three regions having identical prize structure with no residency requirement pretty much guarantees a good amount of Korean participation. Just greater odds not only at money but also points to get into that final. Should have rewarded Korean region substantially more and worked that money to 16+ spots.
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On April 08 2013 16:42 digmouse wrote:
Glad to see a lot of important questions asked, so we can watch Scarlett play in Code A qualifiers now?
Like the ESL admins said before in the other thread (they aren't in charge of NA, but it's the same for MLG): She would be locked out of the first season of NA and thus wouldn't be seeded into the Premier Division of NA.
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That really sucks for every non-Korean competing in Korea... I guess stayig at home and shunning both the hard competition and training environment was the right decision after all!
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So identical prize pools and no residency requirement?
The last thing you need to announce is very few LAN events.
This is starting to sound more and more like Korean export service instead of attempt to boost EU/NA scenes.
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The prize pool should really be higher in Korea. Having the premier league (GSL) in Korea = the premier league in NA/EU seems wrong...
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United States33330 Posts
With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1.
No Backsies.
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Man i feel such a fool defending blizzard in all the other threads.
They actually went ahead and made GSL prize pool lower. Thats actually boo-worthy. What the fuck.
Now bunch of top koreans HAVE to move over since otherwise the global ro16's will be a boring one sided stomp, easier and worse to spectators than than GSL/OSL - not to mention much lower production values.
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If there are any close calls at the end of the year in one region, Dreamhack and other non-WCS tournaments are gonna really make or break those results. It's gonna suck for the players who can't attend those and need the points.
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So the 'answer' to almost every question is "we are working..." 
I feel like those things should have been decided before announcing the new format.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Cloaken I'm so sad that you have forsaken us by posting this only to reddit. I thought we were friends, man.
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jesus christ.. this seem so rushed, and they decrease the prize pool.. dont know what i think about that.. hmm
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On April 08 2013 17:50 AyaaLa wrote:
jesus christ.. this seem so rushed, and they decrease the prize pool.. dont know what i think about that.. hmm
100,000 x 9 = 900,000
150,000 x 3 = 450,000
+ 250,000 = 1.6 Million
Seems right to me.
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Don't like that some games will be played online, especially with the number of hackers out there. Hope they eliminate that entirely.
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On April 08 2013 17:56 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:50 AyaaLa wrote:
jesus christ.. this seem so rushed, and they decrease the prize pool.. dont know what i think about that.. hmm 100,000 x 9 = 900,000 150,000 x 3 = 450,000 + 250,000 = 1.6 Million Seems right to me.
Yeah, they didn't decrease it at all, they just spread out to more of the sc2 community, which is good. It will allow more players to commit to this as a full time job in other regions, because of much higher probability of placing in money. The topheaviness of tournament structure before this only allowed the top 20 pros to make a living, as well as popular streamers.
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They didnt bring any new information. They just answered to every question : We are working on it...
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why are so many thinking that prizepool is so important? Looks like in every thread, the game itself sc2 is the most less important stuff in a tournament.
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Its getting harder and harder to stay optimistic about his but im doing my best.
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The price money distribution does spell terror for EU/NA would be my guess. If Korea would get more money, it would at least be motivation to stick around. This way it seems to me, that we will see even high caliber players leave towards EU and US
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On April 08 2013 18:24 Type|NarutO wrote:
The price money distribution does spell terror for EU/NA would be my guess. If Korea would get more money, it would at least be motivation to stick around. This way it seems to me, that we will see even high caliber players leave towards EU and US
Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly 
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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On April 08 2013 18:32 arkedos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:24 Type|NarutO wrote:
The price money distribution does spell terror for EU/NA would be my guess. If Korea would get more money, it would at least be motivation to stick around. This way it seems to me, that we will see even high caliber players leave towards EU and US Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly
Or they will just roll over and die and cry "its too hard!!11  "
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On April 08 2013 18:38 opterown wrote:
not tooo enlightening ;;
except the pricepool announce for each global seasons and global finals there are zero new informations.
Still 0 Clarity for Sortof, Huk etc.
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On April 08 2013 18:22 Dingodile wrote:
why are so many thinking that prizepool is so important? Looks like in every thread, the game itself sc2 is the most less important stuff in a tournament.
The issue is the best starcraft (GSL/OSL) is getting major shaft with the prize pool.
GSL/OSL premier league will have best production, best players, best games, highest skill level but only a tiny part of the prize pool - hence taking away some of the prestige and magic.
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The important questions are still not answered IMHO.
I do not like their attitude towards the residency requirement question. They saying they want to 'avoid it if at all possible' feels like a cop-out to me. Why not ask the Korean teams / players directly what they would do?
And then communicate clearly, that they either foresee a big time migration of Korean players or that they are not. And whether they are ok with that or not.
I really do not know what their vision for this league is. And whether they just dream of it or if they actively work against certain unwanted situations.
For example, like someone in the other thread already said, why does Blizzard feel locking players into a region for a year is a good idea in the first place?
If you have a Code A / Code S layered league system, with only 3 seasons per year, than switching regions will already mean a player has to wait for 6 month until he can earn points from his new region. Why punish migrating players any more? Not all contracts last for a whole year or run out exactly at the end of the year for example.
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On April 08 2013 18:54 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:22 Dingodile wrote:
why are so many thinking that prizepool is so important? Looks like in every thread, the game itself sc2 is the most less important stuff in a tournament. The issue is the best starcraft (GSL/OSL) is getting major shaft with the prize pool. GSL/OSL premier league will have best production, best players, best games, highest skill level but only a tiny part of the prize pool - hence taking away some of the prestige and magic.
Honestly, I am pretty sure things will be just fine.
Stop trying to be so negative about change. Yes, it may seem awkward at first but if this allows us a stable competition worldwide with an actual world championship based on those accomplishments, that's going to grow us as a sport.
Just wait and see, and if you have ideas on how to do things better then write them in a constructive manner.
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On April 08 2013 18:56 lord_nibbler wrote:
The important questions are still not answered IMHO.
I do not like their attitude towards the residency requirement question. They saying they want to 'avoid it if at all possible' feels like a cop-out to me. Why not ask the Korean teams / players directly what they would do?
And then communicate clearly, that they either foresee a big time migration of Korean players or that they are not. And whether they are ok with that or not.
I really do not know what their vision for this league is. And whether they just dream of it or if they actively work against certain unwanted situations.
For example, like someone in the other thread already said, why does Blizzard feel locking players into a region for a year is a good idea in the first place?
If you have a Code A / Code S layered league system, with only 3 seasons per year, than switching regions will already mean a player has to wait for 6 month until he can earn points from his new region. Why punish migrating players any more? Not all contracts last for a whole year or run out exactly at the end of the year.
My interpretation is that the WCS qualifiers will take up part of the schedule, but that does not stop players from actually playing other tournaments if they are launched in Korea (or anywhere). As example: Someone in NA who signed up for one year competing in WCS, also still can go to Dreamhacks, NASL etc.
On April 08 2013 18:32 arkedos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:24 Type|NarutO wrote:
The price money distribution does spell terror for EU/NA would be my guess. If Korea would get more money, it would at least be motivation to stick around. This way it seems to me, that we will see even high caliber players leave towards EU and US Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly
^ This.
Most foreigners seem not to be able to deal with strict practice regimes and just freeball it out of there. Exception is Stephano who is really good even without the regime but such players are very rare. I think that in order to be on top, one should practice seriously and we should focus on building the same kind of system in EU/NA as the Koreans did.
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Well maybe blizzard will succeed in crushing the one competitive scene we actually have like this. I'm starting to seriously dislike these WCS plans, I only really care about the korean scene and I can't see this doing much good.
Winning a GSL will still be harder than winning any WCS tournament, and yet we are supposed to happy with less GSL replaced with a 16 man seasonal tournaments with (around) 7 competitive players present at a time. Then we get the world finals were the most succesful point farmers manage to get seeded in (hello TL koreans, top foreigners) by virtue of attending as much as possible yet never winning, plus a few actually good players who will take it in the end.
I'd have rather seen some kind of EU/NA tournaments that fed into GSL, or a WCS similar to last year.
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Keep in mind that while each GSL/Korean season might have less prize money there is still the season global final on top. So it is actually way more prize money now.
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On April 08 2013 19:18 Shawngood wrote:
Keep in mind that while each GSL/Korean season might have less prize money there is still the season global final on top. So it is actually way more prize money now.
Thats one of the beefs, the global final tournaments are kind of inferior due to the weekend format, and possible weaker seeds from other regions - but have 50% more prize money.
edit:
I honestly think they should take half of that weekend tourney prize money and put it back to the leagues
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On April 08 2013 18:32 arkedos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:24 Type|NarutO wrote:
The price money distribution does spell terror for EU/NA would be my guess. If Korea would get more money, it would at least be motivation to stick around. This way it seems to me, that we will see even high caliber players leave towards EU and US Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly
Or it will give Koreans even more motivation to simply play in the NA/EU region instead.
If the only thing that the GSL/OSL give you is more prestige but you have to do way more for it why would you?
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GSL has beeen totally gutted. Thanks Blizzard, ruin the hardest and most prestigious SC2 tournament... good job.
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On April 08 2013 19:29 Jknighty wrote:
GSL has beeen totally gutted. Thanks Blizzard, ruin the hardest and most prestigious SC2 tournament... good job.
Since Blizzard has been behind it for more than two years straight, I don't see your point...
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On April 08 2013 18:54 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:22 Dingodile wrote:
why are so many thinking that prizepool is so important? Looks like in every thread, the game itself sc2 is the most less important stuff in a tournament. The issue is the best starcraft (GSL/OSL) is getting major shaft with the prize pool. GSL/OSL premier league will have best production, best players, best games, highest skill level but only a tiny part of the prize pool - hence taking away some of the prestige and magic.
Do not forget the three WCS Global Finals with $150,000 each.
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On April 08 2013 19:18 Shawngood wrote:
Keep in mind that while each GSL/Korean season might have less prize money there is still the season global final on top. So it is actually way more prize money now.
Any details on travel compensation and/or if the regional partners can put some prize money on top?
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Poland3748 Posts
This system is definitely unoptimal for Koreans but may be good for the scene as a whole.
The thing I don't like is that team leagues are not in the picture. I like team leagues.
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Didn't think it was possible but the more I hear about this, the less I like it...
Should have left GSL the fuck alone, Blizzard.
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its really cool
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It sounds really unfair for all regions to have the same prize pool. : /
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Despite my initial positive reaction to the WCS system, with more details revealed I now have a pretty strong feeling against the unfairness towards the best. Needless to say, Korea has been the home of SC2 eSports, they win their own competitions and beat the competition abroad MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL and swept almost everything in recent years.
This region lock policy will prevent the best Koreans from sweeping everything. Lets be honest here, top tier Koreans like Life, Mvp etc in 2012 have won tournaments in and outside Korea and the scheduling from the past allowed them to compete in foreign tournaments in between GSLs and take home nice bounties. Region locked WCS replacing the major IEMs and MLGs prevents them from flying around to compete in these premier events thus limiting them to just winning their local WCS no matter how strong or deserving of more titles they are. Adding WCS Globals don't really make up for it imo, also prizemoney for regional WCSs at $100,000 is rather small and does not exceed what the GSL already provides... This leads to overall less income for the Korean players and I feel mid-tier players will feel the most pain being unable to earn extra money from attending foreign events and having fewer GSLs now.
I now feel that the motive behind everything is because lots of stupid foreign fans only want to watch the foreigners regardless of the far superior skills of the Koreans. I sincerely hope that the Koreans who haven't been doing well in Korea will consider switching regions and sweep the top positions, I'd love to see all 5 US and EU spots taken by them unless there are worthy foreigners and these days they are few and far between (atm Stephano, Lucifron, Scarlett and not many more...)
Since Blizzard has taken this extreme form of "affirmative action", I hope these so called "pros" in the foreign scene step it up. I'd hate to see people lazing around and not taking their progaming career seriously winning more money just because of their geographical origins.
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The fact that winning code s is still most prestigous, makes this money distribution feel so wrong.
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On April 08 2013 20:09 Khai wrote:
Despite my initial positive reaction to the WCS system, with more details revealed I now have a pretty strong feeling against the unfairness towards the best. Needless to say, Korea has been the home of SC2 eSports, they win their own competitions and beat the competition abroad MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL and swept almost everything in recent years.
This region lock policy will prevent the best Koreans from sweeping everything. Lets be honest here, top tier Koreans like Life, Mvp etc in 2012 have won tournaments in and outside Korea and the scheduling from the past allowed them to compete in foreign tournaments in between GSLs and take home nice bounties. Region locked WCS replacing the major IEMs and MLGs prevents them from flying around to compete in these premier events thus limiting them to just winning their local WCS no matter how strong or deserving of more titles they are. Adding WCS Globals don't really make up for it imo, also prizemoney for regional WCSs at $100,000 is rather small and does not exceed what the GSL already provides... This leads to overall less income for the Korean players and I feel mid-tier players will feel the most pain being unable to earn extra money from attending foreign events and having fewer GSLs now.
I now feel that the motive behind everything is because lots of stupid foreign fans only want to watch the foreigners regardless of the far superior skills of the Koreans. I sincerely hope that the Koreans who haven't been doing well in Korea will consider switching regions and sweep the top positions, I'd love to see all 5 US and EU spots taken by them unless there are worthy foreigners and these days they are few and far between (atm Stephano, Lucifron, Scarlett and not many more...)
Since Blizzard has taken this extreme form of "affirmative action", I hope these so called "pros" in the foreign scene step it up. I'd hate to see people lazing around and not taking their progaming career seriously winning more money just because of their geographical origins.
Yes lets blame the fans haha. You don't go out much do you? Plz watch some football and you will understand how real sport works. Yes people are actually cheering for Australia when they are playing against Argentina or Spain. even though they absolutely sucks. "Isn't that Insane? How dare the stupid fans cheer against the best team and players"
People like you is a cancer for growing the sc2 scene tbh
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Plus if blizzard is putting up the money for GSL means there's more money left over to do other things with, buff the team leagues, hold a big event in korea or whatever.
I think this is good in the long run for the entire scene, but there will be casualties and some migration of talent away from korea but the best will overwhelmingly stay though and the talent pool is deep.
What made GSL so awesome was the level of talent and the sweet production, both of which will remain high, and be seen for free by more people. Think macro not micro, early game might be rough but in the end, should be sweet.
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I was under the impression that the tournaments still supply their prize pool... Blizzard's is just piled on it separately... I also thought that the 4 major MLG's and such were still gonna happen and that they are not region locked. Guess I was wrong, they need to do a better job getting the little nuggets of info out in the open.
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On April 08 2013 18:32 arkedos wrote:Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly
Giving foreigners an option to earn money without beating koreans wont make them practise harder, i think its the other way around, it will keep them in their sepparate region thinking they are doing just fine then BAM global finals and koreans vs foreigners will be an even bigger stomp without a korean losing a single map to a foreigner
You heard it here first.
On April 08 2013 19:18 Shawngood wrote:
Keep in mind that while each GSL/Korean season might have less prize money there is still the season global final on top. So it is actually way more prize money now.
In 2012 there were 5 GSL tournaments each holding a total prizepool of $153 970 USD, 5*153970 = 769850.
In 2013 there will be 1 GSL of 153970$, and 3x regional qualifiers, 1 global season final and 1 uberfinal, 153970+3*100000+150000+250000 = 853970.
So there is a total difference of 84120$, but then we are forgetting that the global season final and the uberfinal will not only host the best players in the world, as GSL did, it will also include worse-than-top50korean-foreigners grabbing some of the lower placements and therefore some money. AND last year there were the 5 GSL and WCS on top of that.
More importantly i hope there will be more GSL events than the Season 1 + WCS events, else the koreans who doesnt qualify for any of the season finals or global finals wont have anything to do for a loooooong period of time between GSLs.
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Now my thought on the matter, sure its great for the americans and european players that only play this game for money that blizzard has made this system, im not denying its a smart thing to do like IdrA, Demuslim and countless other players and cancle their plans of going to korean and flee back home. Because that is where they will be making the money.
However, this will not be the beginning of some new era where foreigners are working harder and the result being a smaller gap between koreans and foreigners, it will probably be the opposite. With all our non-korean heroes spending their time practising against lower tier players, perhaps going on a 120 game winningspree on the NA ladder and thinking they are doing really well at the moment - they will probably be in mid tier korean-masters skill. They will then move on to their qualifiers and premier leagues... earning some money and gaining their points only to move to the season finals and get roflstomped as usual, only difference is that in order for koreans to get their money they will have to go to NA/EU for season finals rather than sit comfortably in their teamhouse waiting for GSL.
Alot of people are going to read this post and be like "Lol, you are wrong, foreigners will be working alot harder now that there is something in it for them", and to you i shall give you the results of an experiment made in an college class to test complete Socialism. Bare with me:
The professor gave the students a promise, he would give everyone the same grade, no1 would be given an F (failed) and no1 would be given an A (unless they all got the top/bottom grade). In this case you can substitute grades = money.
At the first test the average grade was a B, the students who studied enough to get a higher grade were furious and the students who didnt study at all were very happy.
When the second test came around, the students who didnt study studied even less.. and the students who studied also wanted a free ride and studied less. The outcome was an average grade of D, and everyone got that grade and became furious.
At the third test the average was F and the entire class failed. From that point forward the class did not increase their grades and the entire class failed that semester.
My point with this story is that blizzard is making the money equal in all regions -> People playing in a harder region will have to work harder to make less money than someone in an easier region. And people in easier regions will feel that they wont have to work harder will therefore slack off once they get the feeling they are in the premier league.
It will be sad to see code B koreans, or even code S koreans currently qualifying for code A due to dropping out in the last season of WoL (Mvp, MC etc.), not being able to make as much money as a top NA players (who perhaps isnt even top 100 in the world) - ONLY because they were born in NA and happened to be lucky enough for blizzard to come along and give them easy money.
This post is pretty long and only on the subject regarding the prizemoney and region distribution, there are still alot of not-so-great things with all of this... Blizzard trying to controll SC2 esports by not letting non-WCS tournaments host their tournaments during WCS events and making foreigners unable to play in the GSL if they want to qualify for WCS from their home region - for example.
PS. Im not saying that socialism is bad, i live in Sweden (one of the most socialist countries in the world) and i am very happy and our system is great, but thats because we have a mix of capitalism/socialism... for example: A person with a high position, for example as CEO still earn alot more money than someone below him, however a person who doesnt earn as much as him is not screwed because he can get vital services such as healthcare or education for free.
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The whole system is fucking stupid.
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The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
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On April 08 2013 20:09 Khai wrote:
Despite my initial positive reaction to the WCS system, with more details revealed I now have a pretty strong feeling against the unfairness towards the best. Needless to say, Korea has been the home of SC2 eSports, they win their own competitions and beat the competition abroad MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL and swept almost everything in recent years.
This region lock policy will prevent the best Koreans from sweeping everything. Lets be honest here, top tier Koreans like Life, Mvp etc in 2012 have won tournaments in and outside Korea and the scheduling from the past allowed them to compete in foreign tournaments in between GSLs and take home nice bounties. Region locked WCS replacing the major IEMs and MLGs prevents them from flying around to compete in these premier events thus limiting them to just winning their local WCS no matter how strong or deserving of more titles they are. Adding WCS Globals don't really make up for it imo, also prizemoney for regional WCSs at $100,000 is rather small and does not exceed what the GSL already provides... This leads to overall less income for the Korean players and I feel mid-tier players will feel the most pain being unable to earn extra money from attending foreign events and having fewer GSLs now.
I now feel that the motive behind everything is because lots of stupid foreign fans only want to watch the foreigners regardless of the far superior skills of the Koreans. I sincerely hope that the Koreans who haven't been doing well in Korea will consider switching regions and sweep the top positions, I'd love to see all 5 US and EU spots taken by them unless there are worthy foreigners and these days they are few and far between (atm Stephano, Lucifron, Scarlett and not many more...)
Since Blizzard has taken this extreme form of "affirmative action", I hope these so called "pros" in the foreign scene step it up. I'd hate to see people lazing around and not taking their progaming career seriously winning more money just because of their geographical origins.
For the millionth time, IEM, the MLG Pro Circuit, DreamHack, WCG, ESWC, Iron Squid, NASL, EPS etc are NOT part of WCS, and thus not region locked. Not only can any Korean participate in any of the events, they can also earn points to qualify for the Global Seasonal Finals and the World Finals at BlizzCon. The WCS Leagues in which the GSL Koreans can't participate are the SEPARATE WCS Leagues hosted by ESL and MLG, which are replacing the European and American WCS events, in which they couldn't have participated eitherway.
If anything, its the lower end Koreans in Code A which will suffer because of the reduced prizepool, the Lifes, Mvps, MCs etc, will make even more money because they will definitely qualify for the Global Finals and BlizzCon and earn a ton of cash.
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Well most of the money will go the Koreans anyway. Each season they will get both 100.000$ and most of the 150.000$ from the global season finals. Then at Blizcon they will get most of the 250.000$ as well.
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On April 08 2013 20:18 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:32 arkedos wrote:Which could also motivate EU and US players to finally practice properly Giving foreigners an option to earn money without beating koreans wont make them practise harder, i think its the other way around, it will keep them in their sepparate region thinking they are doing just fine then BAM global finals and koreans vs foreigners will be an even bigger stomp without a korean losing a single map to a foreigner You heard it here first. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:18 Shawngood wrote:
Keep in mind that while each GSL/Korean season might have less prize money there is still the season global final on top. So it is actually way more prize money now. In 2012 there were 5 GSL tournaments each holding a total prizepool of $153 970 USD, 5*153970 = 769850. In 2013 there will be 1 GSL of 153970$, and 3x regional qualifiers, 1 global season final and 1 uberfinal, 153970+3*100000+150000+250000 = 853970. [/i]
You are wrong, in 2013, there will be 1 GSL of $160,000, 3 Regional Qualifiers of $100,000, 3 Global Season Finals of $150,000 and the Grand Final at BlizzCon of $250,000.
In 2012 there was also the Korean WCS of $26,000 and the Asian finals of $60,000. These, together with the other continental finals, have been replaced by the Global Seasonal Finals.
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So many fallacies... Don't people take a second or two to actually read and try to understand the information before responding?
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On April 08 2013 20:15 Benjamin99 wrote:
Yes lets blame the fans haha. You don't go out much do you? Plz watch some football and you will understand how real sport works. Yes people are actually cheering for Australia when they are playing against Argentina or Spain. even though they absolutely sucks. "Isn't that Insane? How dare the stupid fans cheer against the best team and players"
People like you is a cancer for growing the sc2 scene tbh
First of all, resorting to personal insult, what are you... 13? 14?
Secondly, you cant compare a national team to a mixed league... ofcourse 90% of all australians will cheer for Australia, just as 90% of all swedes will cheer for Sweden, however i doubt that the majority of swedish people would cheer for BK Häcken going up against Manchester United.
Third, you are more than welcome to cheer for any player/team you want, hell i cheer for the underdog in most of the cases - however once athletes (yes, if we want to call it eSPORTS the players are atheletes) are prioritized for the amount of following they have, then we will probably end up in a very wierd league where there are some players who are there because they are great and have fans because of that - who are playing against people who are terrible in comparison but have great personalities and/or loyal countrymen - and the outcome wont be pretty.
Im afraid that if we keep going in the direction of where SC2 is heading now then we will have WCS 2015 finals of Day[9] Vs. Flash and a game is not decided by who eliminates the opponent but rather by who has the higher viewer number.
When a player earns alot of money from advertising, salery, exposure etc. that is completly fine with me... but when they start getting spots in tournaments only because they have a huge following.. and thus not letting a great player have their shot at making some prizemoney - that is where i draw the line.
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On April 08 2013 20:30 mikkmagro wrote:
You are wrong, in 2013, there will be 1 GSL of $160,000, 3 Regional Qualifiers of $100,000, 3 Global Season Finals of $150,000 and the Grand Final at BlizzCon of $250,000.
In 2012 there was also the Korean WCS of $26,000 and the Asian finals of $60,000. These, together with the other continental finals, have been replaced by the Global Seasonal Finals.
Sorry i should have made myself clear and said that i only counted events hosted by GOM :p My point being however vage as it might have been is that the "Money per korean" will be lower, and thus the "Money per skill" will also be lower.
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If they had just tilted the favors slightly towards korea it would have been great.
For example finals 8 KR, 4 EU 4 NA and money 50% KR 25% EU 25% NA. It wouldn't be such a blatantly obvious move for koreans not qualified for GSL to go and try in NA. Afterall, what's the point of trying in a much harder region when you also have the disadvantage of not being in the big point gaining tournament while you can have much easier competition at the price of some lag somewhere else. I guess it depends how many offline tournaments NA and EU consist off, if it's only a few the regions will be filled with 'code B' koreans.
Not even mentioning code A, code B and code S are diluted now because they are based on WoL, for all we know some of the best HotS (Kespa players perhaps) are still in code B, who just get shafted completely.. Hardest region, not in code S and probably unable to move anyway because of korean sponsors and pro league to attend too...
The idea behind this WCS is nice but it's going to dilute the quality of the current cream of the crop, GSL and OSL, which is a shame.
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My question is as regards the money invested by GOM. Since they will only be hosting two GSLs with $100,000 each this year, the money invested is a lot less than they did last year. I know they more than doubled the prize money for GSTL, but does the original GSL prizemoney add up to the $100,000 of WCS, or is it just $100,000?
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I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA
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According to Liquipedia, the WCS KR1(Code S) pool is: "Approximately $123,624 USD".
Meaning that the 100k was added on to the original prize pool.
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On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA
They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one."
Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that.
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On April 08 2013 19:36 Abominous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:29 Jknighty wrote:
GSL has beeen totally gutted. Thanks Blizzard, ruin the hardest and most prestigious SC2 tournament... good job. Since Blizzard has been behind it for more than two years straight, I don't see your point...
You can ruin what you created.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:17 Master of DalK wrote:
According to Liquipedia, the WCS KR1(Code S) pool is: "Approximately $123,624 USD".
Meaning that the 100k was added on to the original prize pool.
i don't think liquipedia has received any serious knowledge about it?
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So many BS lines, when they simply could have said "we took a short sighted approach because we want Koreans for increased viewers, and we couldn't reach an agreement with everyone else unless we promised them some Koreans."
You know the best way to encourage master players to work harder to get top 32 in their division!? Well, believe it or not, but... you take the best players in the world and you invite them to take turns bending over master players in their division. Nothing is more motivating than going from 36th to 100th. You can just start to taste the money.
What does it really mean to give yourself an equal shot at competing with the Koreans (if you were as talented as them, which 99.99% are not)? Many Koreans, in team houses, are practicing 14 hours a day. Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
It's always fun and amusing to encourage people to do things you know are futile. Blizzard was able to integrate all of the leagues and come up with a unified system, but low and behold it's too complicated of a matter to go beyond "we have 4 regions that everyone in the universe is allowed to pick which one they want to play in." Notice they didn't really say it was too hard or anything, just that they didn't want the added complication because, again, they want Korean viewers. It's semantics and bs.
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On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that.
Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale.
This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever...
On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life )
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On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life )
The problem isn't people not wanting to be progamers (with better circumstances many would). The problem is more taking your life savings and gambling in a casino game that favors the house. This is just increasing the odds for the house, while acting like you have done the opposite for the player. It's false advertisement.
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On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life )
I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved.
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On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that.
thats the problem of EU and NA being overrated in terms of WCS points and prize money. The WCS global finals last year were pretty boring because the skill difference between koreans and the rest was so huge. Its not an enjoyable show then if you dont have exciting close matches. WCS EU was the most exciting wcs event last year because people were mostly on the same skill level.
Either send less EU/NA player or remove region lock. Like this no foreigner wont ever try gsl again if they care about wcs. and thats a shame.
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The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
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On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved.
The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now.
Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them.
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On April 08 2013 21:58 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. thats the problem of EU and NA being overrated in terms of WCS points and prize money. The WCS global finals last year were pretty boring because the skill difference between koreans and the rest was so huge. Its not an enjoyable show then if you dont have exciting close matches. WCS EU was the most exciting wcs event last year because people were mostly on the same skill level. Either send less EU/NA player or remove region lock. Like this no foreigner wont ever try gsl again if they care about wcs. and thats a shame.
I don't understand how removing region lock will this problem. It will just make more Koreans join NA/EU regions.
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On April 08 2013 22:01 will216 wrote:
The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
I am not 100% sure that is true. They said the "prize pool for WSC will be equal for all regions", which I think can be read that Blizzard is giving out the same amount per region. It doesn't confirm for me that GSL isn't also going to be providing their own funds as prize money.
I think it can be read both ways, but Blizzard normally only provides information on exactly what THEY are doing and does not comment on what other groups are also doing. Until the leagues start up for real, I am withholding my opinion.
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On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them.
But you can run events during WCS , MLG and ESL will both have events going on during WCS. They did last time.
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On April 08 2013 22:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:01 will216 wrote:
The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
I am not 100% sure that is true. They said the "prize pool for WSC will be equal for all regions", which I think can be read that Blizzard is giving out the same amount per region. It doesn't confirm for me that GSL isn't also going to be providing their own funds as prize money. I think it can be read both ways, but Blizzard normally only provides information on exactly what THEY are doing and does not comment on what other groups are also doing. Until the leagues start up for real, I am withholding my opinion.
I'm not sure about that, because If GSL and OSL rise their prize pool with their own money. MLG and ESL will try to the same and I don't think Blizzard is looking for a prize pool war.
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On April 08 2013 22:06 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. But you can run events during WCS , MLG and ESL will both have events going on during WCS. They did last time.
Events during global season finals, and blizzcon finals are forbidden... so 4 weekends this, and 5 weekends next year are forbidden.I dont remember them saying anything about events during leagues.
Also, i wonder if all this means Artosis will eventually get into Code A.
On April 08 2013 22:09 will216 wrote:
I'm not sure about that, because If GSL and OSL rise their prize pool with their own money. MLG and ESL will try to the same and I don't think Blizzard is looking for a prize pool war.
There might be a way around the wording. The word on the internet is that the 100k prize pool will only go to top32.
Meaning the official price pool screws codeA completely
If there is enough commotion, CodeA/CodeS in theory could do something like set up an "appearance fee" system. Every time you play a matchup offline you will get a fixed extra fees - so on top of prize pool you would get.
1x appaerance fee, for getting to Ro48 CodeA ( show up in studio to play 1 matches per season)
2x appearance fee, for getting to Ro32 CodeA ( show up in studio to play 2 matches per season)
3x appearance fee, for getting to Ro24 CodeA ( show up in studio to play 3 matches per season)
3x appearance fee, for getting to Ro32 CodeS ( show up to studio to play 3 possible matches - you might only play 2 but there is chance of having to play 3 )
6x appearance fee, for getting to Ro16 CodeS ( Ro32 + another possible 3 bo3's in ro16)
And so on. MLG and ESL could copy the system - but they will have only Premier Ro16 in the system, so they are eligible to give out less money.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 08 2013 22:14 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:06 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. But you can run events during WCS , MLG and ESL will both have events going on during WCS. They did last time. Events during global season finals, and blizzcon finals are forbidden... so 4 weekends this, and 5 weekends next year are forbidden.I dont remember them saying anything about events during leagues. Also, i wonder if all this means Artosis will eventually get into Code A.
4 weekends in a year is hardly many though
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On April 08 2013 22:15 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:14 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 22:06 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. But you can run events during WCS , MLG and ESL will both have events going on during WCS. They did last time. Events during global season finals, and blizzcon finals are forbidden... so 4 weekends this, and 5 weekends next year are forbidden.I dont remember them saying anything about events during leagues. Also, i wonder if all this means Artosis will eventually get into Code A. 4 weekends in a year is hardly many though
There are 46-48 other weekends left, so I am sure they can find room.
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On April 08 2013 22:09 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:06 Plansix wrote:On April 08 2013 22:01 will216 wrote:
The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
I am not 100% sure that is true. They said the "prize pool for WSC will be equal for all regions", which I think can be read that Blizzard is giving out the same amount per region. It doesn't confirm for me that GSL isn't also going to be providing their own funds as prize money. I think it can be read both ways, but Blizzard normally only provides information on exactly what THEY are doing and does not comment on what other groups are also doing. Until the leagues start up for real, I am withholding my opinion. I'm not sure about that, because If GSL and OSL rise their prize pool with their own money. MLG and ESL will try to the same and I don't think Blizzard is looking for a prize pool war.
We will have to wait. I can see GOM giving out more money to keep the best players in Korea and sponsors may want their name associated with that large check at the end. Either way, I doubt that GOM is going to be giving out less money at the end of the season.
We will have to wait until news from the specific events(WCS NA, WCS EU) comes out to know for sure. Blizzard is clearly cranking through the details, but with some many groups and different regions to address, it will take time. As a person in the legal field, the idea of creating 3 separate leagues and dealing with all the legal issues with giving away prize money for competitions makes my head spin.
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On April 08 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:09 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 22:06 Plansix wrote:On April 08 2013 22:01 will216 wrote:
The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
I am not 100% sure that is true. They said the "prize pool for WSC will be equal for all regions", which I think can be read that Blizzard is giving out the same amount per region. It doesn't confirm for me that GSL isn't also going to be providing their own funds as prize money. I think it can be read both ways, but Blizzard normally only provides information on exactly what THEY are doing and does not comment on what other groups are also doing. Until the leagues start up for real, I am withholding my opinion. I'm not sure about that, because If GSL and OSL rise their prize pool with their own money. MLG and ESL will try to the same and I don't think Blizzard is looking for a prize pool war. We will have to wait. I can see GOM giving out more money to keep the best players in Korea and sponsors may want their name associated with that large check at the end. Either way, I doubt that GOM is going to be giving out less money at the end of the season. We will have to wait until news from the specific events(WCS NA, WCS EU) comes out to know for sure. Blizzard is clearly cranking through the details, but with some many groups and different regions to address, it will take time. As a person in the legal field, the idea of creating 3 separate leagues and dealing with all the legal issues with giving away prize money for competitions makes my head spin.
Nah there must be some ruling in writing that will keep the prizemoney in check, especially as all regions award the same ranking points. One tournament having a bigger prizepool will skew the player skill and damage the point rankings
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On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them.
You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please.
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The ability to forbid leagues, at all, is funny. This year it's a week. Next year it's two weeks, etc, etc. You can only be so bold your first time. You know how you really forbid leagues? You make your league worth it enough for the players.
The players are free to pick which region that gives them the best chance/odds. Yet, god forbid a better league spawned that was more favorable for everyone but a few Koreans. They have rules against monopolies for a reason.
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On April 08 2013 22:28 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On April 08 2013 22:09 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 22:06 Plansix wrote:On April 08 2013 22:01 will216 wrote:
The Major problem I have with WCS is that GSL and OSL prize pool is locked at 100k. The prize pool should be more because the region will be harder to win in. Also, this stop Koreans from just switching over to NA/EU for the easy money. Why stay in a harder region , when you can make the same amount of money in a easier region?
I am not 100% sure that is true. They said the "prize pool for WSC will be equal for all regions", which I think can be read that Blizzard is giving out the same amount per region. It doesn't confirm for me that GSL isn't also going to be providing their own funds as prize money. I think it can be read both ways, but Blizzard normally only provides information on exactly what THEY are doing and does not comment on what other groups are also doing. Until the leagues start up for real, I am withholding my opinion. I'm not sure about that, because If GSL and OSL rise their prize pool with their own money. MLG and ESL will try to the same and I don't think Blizzard is looking for a prize pool war. We will have to wait. I can see GOM giving out more money to keep the best players in Korea and sponsors may want their name associated with that large check at the end. Either way, I doubt that GOM is going to be giving out less money at the end of the season. We will have to wait until news from the specific events(WCS NA, WCS EU) comes out to know for sure. Blizzard is clearly cranking through the details, but with some many groups and different regions to address, it will take time. As a person in the legal field, the idea of creating 3 separate leagues and dealing with all the legal issues with giving away prize money for competitions makes my head spin. Nah there must be some ruling in writing that will keep the prizemoney in check, especially as all regions award the same ranking points. One tournament having a bigger prizepool will skew the player skill and damage the point rankings
The appearance fee thought i posted few posts ago circumvents these issues and also is pretty fair in many ways:
1) if you give player additional fees based on how many times they have to come to the studio - it compensates for the travel koreans have to do compared to playing from your home online.
2) until NA/EU scene are mature enough to go full online, it compensates for the vast skill difference between regions - also motivating more people to stay in korea for a while so the NA/EU will have some room to breath for newer talent.
3) it would help NA/EU player from further regions - so if you actually show up to ro16 lan, but get demolished there, you will not lose money compared to people who dropped out in 32 playing online only.
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On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please.
What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week.
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The more I read about WCS, the more I feel like Blizzards thought process was as follows "Hey this LCS thing riot is doing is pretty good, lets do that too" and then they went to announce WCS the next day.
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On April 08 2013 22:44 playa wrote:
The ability to forbid leagues, at all, is funny. This year it's a week. Next year it's two weeks, etc, etc. You can only be so bold your first time. You know how you really forbid leagues? You make your league worth it enough for the players.
The players are free to pick which region that gives them the best chance/odds. Yet, god forbid a better league spawned that was more favorable for everyone but a few Koreans. They have rules against monopolies for a reason.
What are talking about ? This year, you can switch leagues at the end of the year and Next year at the beginning of season 1. I think that's fair.
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On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week.
The reason Blizzard is investing is that it is cheap marketing budget that reaches a lot of people. Companies spend tens of millions of dollars marketing movies and games through "traditional means" like ads and website splash pages. Those cost a lot and running an tournament like WCS is a cheaper way for Blizzard to reach a lot of people easily and deliver their products. 1.6 million in prize money is pretty cheap when compared to most marketing budgets.
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On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week.
You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise.
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On April 08 2013 22:53 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:44 playa wrote:
The ability to forbid leagues, at all, is funny. This year it's a week. Next year it's two weeks, etc, etc. You can only be so bold your first time. You know how you really forbid leagues? You make your league worth it enough for the players.
The players are free to pick which region that gives them the best chance/odds. Yet, god forbid a better league spawned that was more favorable for everyone but a few Koreans. They have rules against monopolies for a reason. What are talking about ? This year, you can switch leagues at the end of the year and Next year at the beginning of season 1. I think that's fair.
Letting people switch one time after season 1 is totally fair and reasonable out the gate. This means Korean players can compete in GSL if they want, but not be locked in for the year. There is still risk involved for the world championship, but they to compete in the other leagues.
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On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise.
Riot Games is doing really good with LOL and that's all they have (I think). Blizzard should be ok with spending 1.6million on WCS.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
The response to every question was "we're working hard and will provide details soon."
How do you do announce something like this with so many details left hanging in the balance?
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Does this mean NA WCS games will be cast by axslav & axteltoss? -.-
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On April 08 2013 23:02 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. Riot Games is doing really good with LOL and that's all they have (I think). Blizzard should be ok with spending 1.6million on WCS.
It is marketing budget for all of their games that they are going to hype during the WCS. Look at it this way, Scott Pilgrim vs the World was estimated to have about 25 million in marketing budget(60 million in production, 85 million total spent). 1.6 million is nothing for Blizzard in marketing if the numbers back up the money spent.
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On April 08 2013 23:02 will216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. Riot Games is doing really good with LOL and that's all they have (I think). Blizzard should be ok with spending 1.6million on WCS.
Yup, Riot is making money off esports. They made enough on ad revenue from twitch to earn back their millions in prize money and tournament production costs. Nope, it's not their insanely profitable f2p model that makes them their money, its ESPORTS!!!
Also the total cost of WCS for Blizzard is 1.6 mil. After all, prize money is the only money an organizer spends in running a tournament.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at some of the arguments made on TL.
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On April 08 2013 23:07 tree.hugger wrote:
The response to every question was "we're working hard and will provide details soon."
How do you do announce something like this with so many details left hanging in the balance?
Real simple, you are trying to get three separate parties on three separate parts of the world to nail down details. Plus all the teams and players. They all can't make up their minds 100% and then you drop the bomb to force them to nail it down. Then all the teams and players come in with issues you may not have thought of, but seem totally reasonable.
Oh yeah, and not everyone making the important decisions speaks the same language.
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On April 08 2013 23:10 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:02 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. Riot Games is doing really good with LOL and that's all they have (I think). Blizzard should be ok with spending 1.6million on WCS. Yup, Riot is making money off esports. They made enough on ad revenue from twitch to earn back their millions in prize money and tournament production costs. Nope, it's not their insanely profitable f2p model that makes them their money, its ESPORTS!!! Also the total cost of WCS for Blizzard is 1.6 mil. After all, prize money is the only money an organizer spends in running a tournament. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at some of the arguments made on TL.
Its marketing budget. I will bet cash money they spent more than 1.6 million on TV ads for HotS.
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On April 08 2013 23:07 tree.hugger wrote:
The response to every question was "we're working hard and will provide details soon."
How do you do announce something like this with so many details left hanging in the balance?
Probably Because its a very complicated thing to organize, and they didn't have enough time to both transition the existing global system into a new but superior model while also making all details public far in advance of the transition. There are unavoidable reasons for organizations to withhold certain details about pending plans for a while.
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Feels like an awful amount of technicalities to let Koreans go to EU and NA to take all the money and championship seeds
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On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise.
It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays. The only reason they even had the finals in China was so that they could try and get more customers there, if WoW or SC2 would take a steady foothold in china then blizzards revenu would double.
But you can live in your fairytale world where you think blizzard is doing this for the greater good and for the health of the community, when in fact its all just another way for them to try and get in on some of the esports money whilst advertising the rest of their games.
Recap of last years WCS finals:
Lights go dark, epic music playing.. the hundreds of thousands of viewers are sitting at the edge of their seat after the long wait and poor production....
A light goes off at the stage and in comes a Panda, a Demon Hunter and that ghost girl from the sc2 campaign.. they hop around on stage for about 20 minutes... then comes the mist of pandaria traier for the 20th time.
Then a blizzard official comes out on stage and says "thank you for your support.. oh and btw here are some matches"....
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Is MLG making money or not? The guy talks about amazing sponsorship retention and having huge brands like Dr. Pepper. When I think of MLG, for some reason I think of e-sports. What is it that MLG is involved in? I forget, sometimes. Now, if you had a fuck ton of money and you realized that you made a game to be an e-sport (even saying that was their intention all along...), would you not invest in it, if some e-sports tournaments have already proven to be profitable?
Sooner or later everyone that is going to get your game has it. I'm sure they would have loved a way to keep making a lot of money off BW, even after everyone had the game. Hmm.
Propping up e-sports by making this years WCS much worse for every country that's not Korea. I knew Korea was important, but wow, I had no idea. Thank god for them saving esports.
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On April 08 2013 23:24 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays.
The claim I'm refuting is that Blizzard is positioning itself with WCS to make direct money off the tournament itself (and to make "way more than anyone else").
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On April 08 2013 23:27 playa wrote:
Is MLG making money or not? The guy talks about amazing sponsorship retention and having huge brands like Dr. Pepper. When I think of MLG, for some reason I think of e-sports. What is it that MLG is involved in? I forget, sometimes. Now, if you had a fuck ton of money and you realized that you made a game to be an e-sport (even saying that was their intention all along...), would you not invest in it, if some e-sports tournaments have already proven to be profitable?
Sooner or later everyone that is going to get your game has it. I'm sure they would have loved a way to keep making a lot of money off BW, even after everyone had the game. Hmm.
Propping up e-sports by making this years WCS much worse for every country that's not Korea. I knew Korea was important, but wow, I had no idea. Thank god for them saving esports.
I really can never tell what you are talking about or how you come to the conclusions that you do. I am not sure what you are getting at, but WCS is a good think for everyone, regardless of how much people freak out about the details in the coming days(and they will freak out, because thats what TL loves to do)
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On April 08 2013 23:27 playa wrote:
Is MLG making money or not? The guy talks about amazing sponsorship retention and having huge brands like Dr. Pepper. When I think of MLG, for some reason I think of e-sports. What is it that MLG is involved in? I forget, sometimes. Now, if you had a fuck ton of money and you realized that you made a game to be an e-sport (even saying that was their intention all along...), would you not invest in it, if some e-sports tournaments have already proven to be profitable?
Sooner or later everyone that is going to get your game has it. I'm sure they would have loved a way to keep making a lot of money off BW, even after everyone had the game. Hmm.
Propping up e-sports by making this years WCS much worse for every country that's not Korea. I knew Korea was important, but wow, I had no idea. Thank god for them saving esports.
Odds are MLG is not making money. It's been said no tournaments are turning a profit. They are running loss leader models without a guarantee yet that they're gonna make money. Might seem crazy, but there's a reason IPL6 was cancelled. David Ting for one has stated that IPL needs years to become profitable, and that depends on an increase in viewership.
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I still don't like inviting players into the premier division, I know obviously Polt, Grubby, Vibe, Idra..etc will get there if there was a qualifier but it does take away from the competition for it I think. I think for season 1 they should just do an open tournament and fill the places like that. So top 16 get right into premier, then run code A to fill out the up and downs and the automatic promotion spots. It will give time to get to know the newer players that you wouldn't have heard of and it gives a lot of stories to the next season. Doing it the other way just makes it harder to get in for newer players and the format itself makes it very hard to fall out of the division because 1 best of 3 win means you stay in so even players horribly out of form have stayed in for a few seasons longer than they should have in GSL for instance. So you are pretty much given money and notoriety when you are completely out of form.
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Canada16217 Posts
On April 08 2013 23:43 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:27 playa wrote:
Is MLG making money or not? The guy talks about amazing sponsorship retention and having huge brands like Dr. Pepper. When I think of MLG, for some reason I think of e-sports. What is it that MLG is involved in? I forget, sometimes. Now, if you had a fuck ton of money and you realized that you made a game to be an e-sport (even saying that was their intention all along...), would you not invest in it, if some e-sports tournaments have already proven to be profitable?
Sooner or later everyone that is going to get your game has it. I'm sure they would have loved a way to keep making a lot of money off BW, even after everyone had the game. Hmm.
Propping up e-sports by making this years WCS much worse for every country that's not Korea. I knew Korea was important, but wow, I had no idea. Thank god for them saving esports.
Odds are MLG is not making money. It's been said no tournaments are turning a profit. They are running loss leader models without a guarantee yet that they're gonna make money. Might seem crazy, but there's a reason IPL6 was cancelled. David Ting for one has stated that IPL needs years to become profitable, and that depends on an increase in viewership.
Didn't MLG already state they were turning profit? Sundance or someone else said this in some interview I believe. I could be completely wrong though(as it might have been for another company in NASL)
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On April 08 2013 23:54 FlukyS wrote:
I still don't like inviting players into the premier division, I know obviously Polt, Grubby, Vibe, Idra..etc will get there if there was a qualifier but it does take away from the competition for it I think. I think for season 1 they should just do an open tournament and fill the places like that. So top 16 get right into premier, then run code A to fill out the up and downs and the automatic promotion spots. It will give time to get to know the newer players that you wouldn't have heard of and it gives a lot of stories to the next season. Doing it the other way just makes it harder to get in for newer players and the format itself makes it very hard to fall out of the division because 1 best of 3 win means you stay in so even players horribly out of form have stayed in for a few seasons longer than they should have in GSL for instance. So you are pretty much given money and notoriety when you are completely out of form.
I think that might be a time issue more than anything else. Open qualifiers would be great, but they need to run a league to sync up with the currently running GSL. Any qualifiers would need to be run very quickly and they simply don't have time to pull it off.
It's one of those things, "it would be nice if...." But they have to make the thing work in the time they have.
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On April 09 2013 00:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:43 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 23:27 playa wrote:
Is MLG making money or not? The guy talks about amazing sponsorship retention and having huge brands like Dr. Pepper. When I think of MLG, for some reason I think of e-sports. What is it that MLG is involved in? I forget, sometimes. Now, if you had a fuck ton of money and you realized that you made a game to be an e-sport (even saying that was their intention all along...), would you not invest in it, if some e-sports tournaments have already proven to be profitable?
Sooner or later everyone that is going to get your game has it. I'm sure they would have loved a way to keep making a lot of money off BW, even after everyone had the game. Hmm.
Propping up e-sports by making this years WCS much worse for every country that's not Korea. I knew Korea was important, but wow, I had no idea. Thank god for them saving esports.
Odds are MLG is not making money. It's been said no tournaments are turning a profit. They are running loss leader models without a guarantee yet that they're gonna make money. Might seem crazy, but there's a reason IPL6 was cancelled. David Ting for one has stated that IPL needs years to become profitable, and that depends on an increase in viewership. Didn't MLG already state they were turning profit? Sundance or someone else said this in some interview I believe. I could be completely wrong though(as it might have been for another company in NASL)
Yes, that is fact, he said that when talking about the new layout fr MLG.
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dont fking get it. the last wcs had local qualifiers and this just sounds like bla bla region based point system crap.
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On April 08 2013 23:54 FlukyS wrote:
I still don't like inviting players into the premier division, I know obviously Polt, Grubby, Vibe, Idra..etc will get there if there was a qualifier but it does take away from the competition for it I think. I think for season 1 they should just do an open tournament and fill the places like that.
Seeding players would "solve" the issue with Koreans wanting to storm the NA and EU scene. If you give all the Premier league spots to NA and EU players, the Koreans will only be able to make it to Premier in Season 2 at earliest. That may still be more beneficial for them than doing the same thing in Korea, but at least it would take away the argument of "I'm stuck in Code A this season in KR, but I could be Code S in NA next month".
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With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so.
This sounds better than it really is. If any Code A player who doesn't get into Code S in KR this season can then switch, that's fine. But that player would need to go through qualifiers in, say, NA for Season 2, which means the earliest they'd be able to enter Premier league would be Season 3. They simply will not have enough WCS points to make a grand finals this year if that's the case.
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2014 - the Year Koreans moved to America
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On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies.
Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean?
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On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean?
well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers.
so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^
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On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^
That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion (everyone meaning all players in korea...or is it just koreans in korea...basically this seems like a non-answer for situations like scarlett, nothing new has been said depending on the persons interpretation)
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I think GSL prize pool is $100,000 + sponsor money.
According to Liquipedia,GSL prize pool is $160,000.
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On April 09 2013 01:41 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^ That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion
Because the Korean Pros are already locked into playing if they are in code A or have going to compete in code A qualifiers. They and their teams have a very limited amount of time to make the decision. The NA and EU qualifiers have not be announced yet, so the other players have more time before they lock themselves in.
Its going to be a rough take off for WCS and its not going to be perfectly fair. Still, there has been nothing worth freaking out about and people should just wait until all the information is out there before losing their minds.
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On April 09 2013 01:41 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:34 Acer1791 wrote:On April 09 2013 01:32 Prplppleatr wrote:On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies. Does this clear up anything at all? If taken literally, "a player currently playing in GSL", then does that mean only code s players can switch? code a and code s? what does that mean? well i would think players which are in code s and a and the ones who attend code a qualifiers. so in fact pretty much all of the korean pros^^ That's what doesn't make sense..if it was everyone, then why not just say everyone so there is less confusion (everyone meaning all players in korea...or is it just koreans in korea...basically this seems like a non-answer for situations like scarlett, nothing new has been said depending on the persons interpretation)
i really think their announcement is pretty clear, it says:
"If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so"
dont know what more to say about that, every player who is playing in this season of gsl (that includes qualifiers) can switch if he wants to. players who dont play in gsl can switch no matter what, so its at the end of the day all players in korea.
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On April 08 2013 23:24 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays. The only reason they even had the finals in China was so that they could try and get more customers there, if WoW or SC2 would take a steady foothold in china then blizzards revenu would double. But you can live in your fairytale world where you think blizzard is doing this for the greater good and for the health of the community, when in fact its all just another way for them to try and get in on some of the esports money whilst advertising the rest of their games. Recap of last years WCS finals: Lights go dark, epic music playing.. the hundreds of thousands of viewers are sitting at the edge of their seat after the long wait and poor production.... A light goes off at the stage and in comes a Panda, a Demon Hunter and that ghost girl from the sc2 campaign.. they hop around on stage for about 20 minutes... then comes the mist of pandaria traier for the 20th time. Then a blizzard official comes out on stage and says "thank you for your support.. oh and btw here are some matches"....
In case you forgot, there was a WoW arena tournament or something like that at WCS too, it wasn't just SC2. It makes sense that WoW stuff would be going on and displayed if there's a WoW tournament.
And I just absolutely love your logic/lack of understanding of business. Blizzard advertising THEIR products at THEIR event that THEY put together. OMG STOP THE PRESSES BLIZZARD IS EVIL WE MUST STOP THEM! They just want to make money OMG stop Blizzard from making money with their game omg Blizzard MUST be stopped.
It almost sounds like you think Blizzard trying to earn money while simultaneously attempting to improve SC2 E-sports(yes that is actually what they are doing, no one hands out 1.6 million dollars for shits and giggles or whatever ridiculous conspiracy theories you can come up with) NEWSFLASH: the goal of any business is TO MAKE MONEY. If this does system accomplishes that and improves SC2 esports then they have done right. E
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hmm, all i read is "we are working on it..."
they should have worked out all the (exact) details before they made that announcement. now it feels like they are rushing in to something they didnt thought through.
but well, thats just my opinion ^^
edit: but please dont get me wrong, its great to see that blizzard finally put more efforts into e-sports and i am excited to see what is going to happen in 2013/wcs
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i am the only who thinks he says nothing new? only specify few thing like the prize, but not the final answer...
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On April 09 2013 01:53 cladoliver wrote:
i am the only who thinks he says nothing new? only specify few thing like the prize, but not the final answer...
Yes, that is why he follows it up with the statement, "we will have more for you tomorrow." And then they follow up it up saying that they will have a "Reddit AMA regarding WCS" in the near future.
People need to take a deep breath and wait for information.
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On April 09 2013 01:49 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:24 Fizzy wrote:On April 08 2013 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:47 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 22:42 Doodsmack wrote:On April 08 2013 22:04 playa wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 will216 wrote:On April 08 2013 21:28 rename wrote:On April 08 2013 21:17 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 21:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont like region lock at all. I think you should be able to switch every season. Dont force people to commit for one year.
I understand the goal is to establish a EU and NA offline GSL. But locking people in for a year is locking foreigners out of the gsl and koreans consider leaving korea for wcs points.
If you just allow people to switch every season that would solve that dilemma..or as long as you dont reach Code S (or Code A) you are not region locked and can still compete in WCS EU/NA They want to avoid people going "Oh, this tournament has weaker players this season, I'll hop over to that one." Committing to a region for a year means you can't cheese like that. Just losing all your earned points + the need to go through CodeA + CodeA qualifiers every time should be enough to avoid such region hopping on a large scale. This currently just denies the whole thing for people who move mid-season due to switching teams, going to university or whatever... On April 08 2013 21:28 playa wrote:
Are we encouraging people to drop out of school? Are we encouraging people to quit jobs? Have they found a way to cut the need for sleep out of one's life? I would just be curious as to what the superficial comments actually entailed, if it wasn't blatant bs.
There are things like After-Hour Gaming Leagues and that university league thing for people who dont want to be fulltime progamers or dont have enough talent to win stuff while in school ( like Life ) I don't understand how it would be hard for someone to go to school and also be a programer. Most of the WCS will take place online and Ro16 will take place on weekends. If they do go full offline with WCS, people should just lock themselves to the region they live in. Problem solved. The point is it actually wouldn't be that hard if they were competing against other players that were going to school/working/etc instead of Koreans who are already more talented than them and are already practicing as much as humanly possible. This system has jack shit to do with players. This is about Blizzard setting something up for the future that puts them in a position to run the scene and make way more than anyone else involved. You can't even run another event while a WCS is going on. This has jack shit to do with the foreign scene's well being, for now. Looks good on the outside to casuals. Good enough for them. You think Blizzard expects to make a profit off esports? Smarten up please. What do you think people said about real sports at the beginning? It's an investment. Blizzard isn't well off because they love charities. You should have seen the talk they did at MIT where everyone was acting like esports is going to dominate the future. MLG must be losing a lot off esports. That's usually what happens to me when I'm losing money. I act like I'm going to own the world next week. You realize how much money Blizzard has likely sunk into SC2 esports for the sake of propping up and supporting a young industry? What revenue source do you suppose will be greater than Blizzard's costs to run future WCS tournaments? Please explain, I'd love to hear your expertise. It almost sounds like you didn't know that (for blizzard) the highlight of last years WCS was all the WoW and D3 commercials and cosplays. The only reason they even had the finals in China was so that they could try and get more customers there, if WoW or SC2 would take a steady foothold in china then blizzards revenu would double. But you can live in your fairytale world where you think blizzard is doing this for the greater good and for the health of the community, when in fact its all just another way for them to try and get in on some of the esports money whilst advertising the rest of their games. Recap of last years WCS finals: Lights go dark, epic music playing.. the hundreds of thousands of viewers are sitting at the edge of their seat after the long wait and poor production.... A light goes off at the stage and in comes a Panda, a Demon Hunter and that ghost girl from the sc2 campaign.. they hop around on stage for about 20 minutes... then comes the mist of pandaria traier for the 20th time. Then a blizzard official comes out on stage and says "thank you for your support.. oh and btw here are some matches".... In case you forgot, there was a WoW arena tournament or something like that at WCS too, it wasn't just SC2. It makes sense that WoW stuff would be going on and displayed if there's a WoW tournament. And I just absolutely love your logic/lack of understanding of business. Blizzard advertising THEIR products at THEIR event that THEY put together. OMG STOP THE PRESSES BLIZZARD IS EVIL WE MUST STOP THEM! They just want to make money OMG stop Blizzard from making money with their game omg Blizzard MUST be stopped. It almost sounds like you think Blizzard trying to earn money while simultaneously attempting to improve SC2 E-sports(yes that is actually what they are doing, no one hands out 1.6 million dollars for shits and giggles or whatever ridiculous conspiracy theories you can come up with) NEWSFLASH: the goal of any business is TO MAKE MONEY. If this does system accomplishes that and improves SC2 esports then they have done right. E
I dont see anywhere in my post where i wrote that blizzard is evil or that they should not be able to advertise their games at their events. All i did was respond to the previous poster that blizzard doesnt cough up 1.6mil for the good of esports without expecting a profit.
However if the "blizzard is evil"-part you are refering to is me saying they are trying to controll the SC2 esportscene then ur entierly correct. The starcraft community has been gathering pitchforks and lighting torches for more than a decade in order to mob up against oppressors like KeSPA when they were limiting what tournaments the players could attend and how the Broodwar scene was run in korea. Only difference now is that Blizzard is taking a slightly lighter approach and only limiting players to different regions and saying other organizers cant run events on WCS weekends.
Perhaps next year there will be WCS months, or perhaps they will integrate DH, NASL and IronSquid aswell and prevent other organisers from making events at all, who knows.
All im saying is that when big organisations (or in this case even the company behind the game) steps in and try to controll what is happening in order to dictate everything, its not a positive thing.
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8748 Posts
If the GSL and OSL have more prize money to give, then they can host tournaments in Seoul, just like MLG and ESL will continue to host major non-WCS tournaments in NA and EU. It's their decision to tie up so much of their resources in GSTL and Proleague. Having the most prestigious team leagues is a big reason why they have an infrastructure that produces so many more higher quality players in the first place. Asking for Blizzard to just give them more money for individual leagues is ridiculous.
edit: Also, posting on reddit and not battle.net or tl.net? I can understand Blizzard's desire to have their big Q&A on /r/AMA in order to reach new people, but for these small informative updates, post on TL and b.net.
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On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership.
Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
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is this... is this... the first time REDDIT IS THE SOURCE OF NEWS ON TEAMLIQUID.NET???
Wow!
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On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
It's a little of both. I watch the GSL, but my girlfriend only watches events where EG, Huk(pre-EG) Grubby play in. Why? Because she likes them and doesn't really care about the GSL(unless Huk is there). In the limited sample set of our house, we have both parties.
This simple fact of the matter is that EG can pull in over 10K in viewers between Incontrol, Idra, Demuslim and Stephano and night. Gubby had 9K yesterday. There is an audience for just NA and EU players and there is an audience an event that focuses on those players. There is a section of TL that is obsessed with Korean players and believes that any event without them will fail. However, there is also a section of equal size that could not give a fuck.
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On April 09 2013 02:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely. It's a little of both. I watch the GSL, but my girlfriend only watches events where EG, Huk(pre-EG) Grubby play in. Why? Because she likes them and doesn't really care about the GSL(unless Huk is there). In the limited sample set of our house, we have both parties. This simple fact of the matter is that EG can pull in over 10K in viewers between Incontrol, Idra, Demuslim and Stephano and night. Gubby had 9K yesterday. There is an audience for just NA and EU players and there is an audience an event that focuses on those players. There is a section of TL that is obsessed with Korean players and believes that any event without them will fail. However, there is also a section of equal size that could not give a fuck.
Yeah, no doubt about it. There are certainly ideal conditions for max viewers. Usually that being a field of strong Koreans and a fan-favorite foreigner or two having a good run and beating some of them.
I don't really agree that what makes a good individual streamer correlates to tournament interest in that player. I love watching Incontrol and Grubby streaming because they offer their viewers more than just first person perspective of their games. You get humor, lots of commentary, and some Q&A which are often as interesting if not more interesting than the games themselves.
I think that often the Korean-fetishism of a small but rabid minority gets conflated with the desire to watch the strongest possible players regardless of their nationality. It just so happens that all of those players are basically Korean and I think that the number of viewers who are interested in that particular aspect of a tournament may be the largest demographic of all.
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On April 09 2013 02:01 NonY wrote:
If the GSL and OSL have more prize money to give, then they can host tournaments in Seoul, just like MLG and ESL will continue to host major non-WCS tournaments in NA and EU. It's their decision to tie up so much of their resources in GSTL and Proleague. Having the most prestigious team leagues is a big reason why they have an infrastructure that produces so many more higher quality players in the first place. Asking for Blizzard to just give them more money for individual leagues is ridiculous.
edit: Also, posting on reddit and not battle.net or tl.net? I can understand Blizzard's desire to have their big Q&A on /r/AMA in order to reach new people, but for these small informative updates, post on TL and b.net.
Or alternatively, if the GSL rewards are high enough we could have all the best players in the world playing eachother on a regular basis in games they prepared for instead of only seeing the 3 scenes interact in weekend tournaments. You can then have NA/EU tournaments (with good, but lesser rewards) feed into the 'main' GSL-style tournament. This WCS structure just dilutes competition at the highest level, the WCS tournaments are going to be a letdown with poor games until the koreans + 1 or 2 good foreigners meet eachother and even then won't compare to GSL prep games. And then, depending on the pts allocation we could see the same thing all over again at the blizzcon finals.
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On April 09 2013 02:08 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:20 m0ck wrote:
The never ending debacle of people coming to grips with the fact that "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL-who-just-simply-loves-Korea-and-watching-Korean-players-play-other-Korean-players-because-they-are-the-best-while-somewhat-despising-foreign-players-for-their-perceived-inferiority" != "the majority of viewers" continues.
I guess this is the point where I remind you that profit oriented tournaments who benefit from maximizing viewers (MLG, Dreamhack, etc.) have made a obvious effort to bring Koreans to their tournaments. I guess they did it for the "really-dedicated-sc2-watchers-on-TL" rather than catering to the largest viewership. Or could it be that you are full of shit and claiming based on zero evidence that your own imaginary "majority of viewers" is the real one? I wonder which is more likely.
The American tournaments have done that to a large degree, the European not so much.
But then, what about WCS Europe, the event with the largest official viewer-number in recent history? And who are the most popular streamers again?
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A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad.
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On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad.
And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds.
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On April 09 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad. And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds.
Liquipedia probably just took that number from season 1. I don't know how it's possible to interpret what Blizzard said any other way. What they're saying is pretty clear, all WCS tournaments will have equal prize pool and that's 100K for regional championship. Blizzard isn't saying "we'll give them each 100K, it's up to them to set the prize". GSL is WCS Korea, thus GSL's prize pool is 100K.
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On April 09 2013 03:01 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad. And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds. Liquipedia probably just took that number from season 1. I don't know how it's possible to interpret what Blizzard said any other way. What they're saying is pretty clear, all WCS tournaments will have equal prize pool and that's 100K for regional championship. Blizzard isn't saying "we'll give them each 100K, it's up to them to set the prize". GSL is WCS Korea, thus GSL's prize pool is 100K.
Yes, the number on Liquipedia is from before the Blizzard announcement.
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Oh yeah, so that whole Koreans steamrolling every region thing? Yeah, we decided not to prevent it with region residency requirements because it'd be to complicated. It's not like we've seen DOTA2 leagues do the same, or even, you know, your own goddamn WCS that you held last year.
What's complicated about expanded WCS Korea to contain all of Asia, WCS Europe to contain Europe and the Middle East and Africa, and WCS North America to contain the two Americas? Require region residency, and give an extra $50,000 to the Korea region for difficulty (hell, take it away from WCS Europe/NA if you're really tight on cash), and there you go.
Because that was so complicated.
I have honestly never been this pissed at Blizzard for this long, and I've definitely never let it effect my enthusiasm for watching SC2. I defended Diablo 3 for Christ's sake. But region lock alone is going to make the regions meaningless. I'm just going to watch an entire year of Blizzard endorsed Korean stomp, and that gets old quick.
I know the general consensus on TL is "best games possible," but that's NOT the general consensus for literally anywhere else. Especially, you know, those casuals you're going to have to draw in if you want money. WCS NA is going to flop once we realize there's no actual NA players in there left, and it's going to be the saddest thing this year.
Once again, a chance to create a NA/EU safe haven, with three $100,000 prize pool tourneys to keep the NA/EU scenes afloat, and tournament organizers go and fuck it up. It's like they're sitting around a table and seeing exactly how to taunt us this time around.
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On April 09 2013 03:07 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 03:01 sitromit wrote:On April 09 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad. And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds. Liquipedia probably just took that number from season 1. I don't know how it's possible to interpret what Blizzard said any other way. What they're saying is pretty clear, all WCS tournaments will have equal prize pool and that's 100K for regional championship. Blizzard isn't saying "we'll give them each 100K, it's up to them to set the prize". GSL is WCS Korea, thus GSL's prize pool is 100K. Yes, the number on Liquipedia is from before the Blizzard announcement.
To be a little more specific I went into the Liquipedia History of the page and the prize pool money information was first inputted March 1st and hasn't been touched since. It's safe to say that isn't current information and just based on previous information which of course is now outdated with all the changes.
Link of the comparison (Line 97-98)
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On April 09 2013 03:01 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:44 Plansix wrote:On April 09 2013 02:37 sitromit wrote:
A 60K cut to GSL prize pool basically seals the deal in making what was the most prestigious tournament in the world into a glorified qualifier for a tournament with weaker competition. It's really sad. And not given fact at all. Liquipedia lists the prize money at $160,000 for GSL. Blizzard is likely only speaking to their own funds. Liquipedia probably just took that number from season 1. I don't know how it's possible to interpret what Blizzard said any other way. What they're saying is pretty clear, all WCS tournaments will have equal prize pool and that's 100K for regional championship. Blizzard isn't saying "we'll give them each 100K, it's up to them to set the prize". GSL is WCS Korea, thus GSL's prize pool is 100K.
I think both options are equally likely. I can see Blizzard wanting all prize money to be equal, but I can also see GSL offering addition funds in some other way, like a separate check to the winner of GSL. I mean, GSL had 160,000 before WSC and I'm pretty sure they can't just dump that into production or give it to Tasteless to invest in money markets. Maybe they dump it all into GSTL to further support the teams further.
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On April 09 2013 02:01 NonY wrote:
If the GSL and OSL have more prize money to give, then they can host tournaments in Seoul, just like MLG and ESL will continue to host major non-WCS tournaments in NA and EU. It's their decision to tie up so much of their resources in GSTL and Proleague. Having the most prestigious team leagues is a big reason why they have an infrastructure that produces so many more higher quality players in the first place. Asking for Blizzard to just give them more money for individual leagues is ridiculous.
edit: Also, posting on reddit and not battle.net or tl.net? I can understand Blizzard's desire to have their big Q&A on /r/AMA in order to reach new people, but for these small informative updates, post on TL and b.net.
I really dont think GSL/OSL give a damn about prize pools as long as blizzard is paying them. The issue is more about players and the viewers losing part of GSL/OSL magic.
The magic being composed of two things
First, since "playing computer games for living" is still a thing to awe at, at least in the west, the number of dollars tha tplayers win matter to more people compared to sports where most viewers have no clue about money involved.
Secondly, since the numbers are so public and advertised - the number changes the perception of importance - the more numbers, the more important tourney.
Now blizzard went ahead and lowered the pricepool for GSL, and made bunch of weekend tourneys that have bigger price pools and therefore should be more significant so GSL lost both in the "wow he will make so much money" and the perceived importance area.
But there was nothing to replace that - since those weekend tourneys that will have less quality of play, both due to regional imbalances and the fact that its a weekend tournament and wont stress the full starcraft skillset, that includes preparing for every opponent, and creating specific strategies for specific players.
And now if GSL or OSL would want to recreate the effect of having the best possible starcraft in the world, they would have to create a new league - and there is no timeslot to do that anymore.
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If Blizzard really wants Korean in the NA and EU WCS, how about adding a separate online qualifiers for Korean fighting for a limited amount of entry spots? That way we can at least control the amount of Koreans flowing into those tournaments.
I'm all for seeing the greatest game possible, but seeing tons of Code B Koreans flooding the NA and EU WCS will get kinda lame.
edit: Then again, if they're really going for the GSL up/down model.... the balance will be upset sooner or later anyway.
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It is pretty obvious why this was "rushed".
1) They had to get all parties in agreement (biggest hurdle)
2) If they waited longer, GSL would have already started, nullifying season 1 and pushing it back to summer.
3) If #2, there would have only been 2 seasons this year, which means not every region would get to host a championship.
4) Because of up/downs, you need to have multiple seasons to give people time to move up and down the "code" ladder, and thus get points.
IE, they had to make the decision they did when they did so they could get 3 seasons in this year or the entire year would have been moot. The fact that they are still getting details ironed out is a minor wrinkle compared to having a very short year with only 2 seasons that wouldn't have been fair to anyone at all, nor as entertaining for the fans.
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I find it nice and all that they want to play most games online but isnt it going to be a problem is some areas? It should be fine in Europe but what if a brazilian or chilean player actually qualifies? He ll have to fly all the way to the USA?
Other than that; I prefered the previous version with regional lock but well, let s wait and see
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I see a few posts about adding more money to the prize pool for korean region and I think that is absurd. So what if it's "harder" to compete in korea. Is that everyone else's fault because GSL stacked the prize pool to the point that any of the western tournaments are just a mere stepping stone to go back to korea? If the koreans stopped trying to concentrate everything in their "region" then maybe it wouldn't be "harder" to qualify.
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I dont like the fact that NA has the same prize pool as KR. It doesnt make sense that worse players have the same reward. Atleast I know mah boi Poltimus will win in the end!
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I wanted to write a blog post going more in depth, and maybe I will. However just as a brief snip it, I took huge issue with the lack of a residency requirement for the WCS.
Without a residency requirement it's fully possible to have the WCS NA and WCS EU representatives be based in Korea which to me takes away validity of the tournament and really serves no greater purpose for the future success of esports in NA and EU.
The only complexity involved with a true region lock, would be having to vet players residency under some sort of guidelines for the blizzard and league staffs. Something like you must of lived in a region for at least X years, months, days or whatever to compete in a region. At least forcing players and teams to commit their resources to a particular region in order to compete in that region.
Not having a residency requirement seems extremely biased towards the continued success of the KR region and not the continued success of the NA and EU regions. As the only region you are forced to live in to compete due to the nature and structure of the tournaments is the KR region.
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Nothing new beyond a few specifications on prize pools, but we've known about the tournament structuring for a while now. I wish Blizzard could give more transparency or information on the situation rather than rehashing the same stuff.
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On April 08 2013 15:35 juicyjames wrote:
Are the prize pools the same between the leagues?
Yes. All of the regional leagues will have identical prize pools and point distribution.
The prize pool breakdown for the remaining part of 2013 is as follows:
Each Regional WCS League - $100,000
Each Global Season Finals - $150,000
WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon - $250,000
Biggest mistake in this entire thing right here, blew the one chance of making the region split a fair deal.
Very disappointed tbh
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I don't find much incentive for a KR player to Stay there, Which sucks because players could leave to Another region, decreasing the level of the KR tournament. I think the KR tournament should have some kind of incentive, maybe some extra Money or something.
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not adding residency requirements because it's "too complicated"?
if you want koreans in all regions to encourage competition and high level play, that's fine. but say that.
if you cant be bothered to say south americans play in north america and russians play in europe and that people with citizenship can play in their home region regardless of residence, and that's why everything is open, that's just fucking stupid.
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On April 09 2013 06:50 IdrA wrote:
not adding residency requirements because it's "too complicated"?
if you want koreans in all regions to encourage competition and high level play, that's fine. but say that.
if you cant be bothered to say south americans play in north america and russians play in europe and that people with citizenship can play in their home region regardless of residence, and that's why everything is open, that's just fucking stupid.
But won't just doing ALL offline events, deter any Koreans think of joining the NA or EU regions?
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Probably not; they will probably get paid trips to attend the offline events
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On April 09 2013 07:08 Elairec wrote:
Probably not; they will probably get paid trips to attend the offline events
I think so because of the region lock you have to dedicate a whole year to a league . You basically have to relocate to NA or EU. We know this most NA/EU players from playing in Korea. Just do it like the GSL with weekly games.
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The important things to note with Korea losing out on prize money is these things:
1. Last year, Korea had 5 GSLs and 2 OSLs (1 of the OSL was BW to be fair). Each with a lot of prize money.
2. Because of #1, there are more progamers (or ones who are trying to be a progamer) in South Korea than any other country. You have all the Korean players (and there's a lot to list) plus the relatively unknowns like the B-teamers.
3. All of a sudden, there is less money for all those Korean players (we'll see though; if Blizzard "forces" GSL and OSL to have less prize money to make all 3 seem equal, then that'd be silly IMO).
4. What this means is that the Korean players who invested a lot into the game gets shafted unless they switched.
5. Remember that players do not get a salary and have to earn based off of tournament earnings.
6. Also to the argument "this just means Koreans have to work a bit harder". Working harder doesn't help. I'll make an analogy. Lets say there are 100 progamers. The prize money used be able to reward the top 10% players and allow them to have progamer as a career (in this case, 10 people). Now, all of a sudden, the prize money only rewards the top 1% player (the difference is just an exaggeration to explain the situation better). This means only 1 player can earn money.
Regardless of how "hard" Koreans work, only 1 (out of the 100 players) can earn a living off of it. In this situation "working harder" is pointless unless you're the top 5 trying to compete for the #1 spot. It's an issue of supply and demand, and this means (because the demand is much higher than the supply, regardless of anything done), then either the Koreans will compete in other regions (again, you can compete until Ro16 online) or they will retire.
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I mean, we had a topic about this last year already about SC2 in Korea (about how it was so top heavy). I was glad when OSL started doing SC2 tournaments because it meant more tournaments in Korea.
Also about the whole <insert sport here where you cheer for your home team> vs StarCraft 2 debate in the previous pages.
The major difference between American Football (for example) and StarCraft 2 is that StarCraft 2 is primarily viewed by the players of the game itself (the only rare exception is South Korea during the BW era).
With American Footman, I most of the viewers of American Football don't even play the game regularly.
When you watch StarCraft 2 being played, you watch it (usually) for the game being played (because you play the game too or you want to see some awesome stuff happening in the game). Seeing someone from your home country (or wherever you're from) do good I say is a "bonus" and not the primary reason for watching SC2 (compared to American Football for most, for example).
Also the whole "Koreans have no personality" is a myth. Sure it might have been the case during the KeSPA era (with the exception of a few players) but nowadays not anymore. Here is some examples by someone.
I'm surprised people say this.
I guess Forgg asking Zoe for a good luck kiss, Zenio Throwing a rude gesture at Idra, Taeja speaking Spanish to a large audience, Keen gunning down all his team mates in a victory dance and MCs murloc suit just dont count ay?
Despite the entire post, I am glad Blizzard has taken steps to advance SC2 overall. However, I just dislike the fact that they have to shaft GSL and Korea just because they want to make things look "equal". (Though we don't know the whole story - We do know it was announced there was going to be 4 GSLs this year. Were GOMTV forced to do 3 GSLs by Blizzard when they wanted to do 4, or did they already plan on doing 3 GSLs instead of 4?)
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when NA&US detail announced? now already''tomorrow night''
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https://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/9447310/WCS_Season_1_Dates-4_8_2013
New details.
So awesome the first round this season is pure invitational:
24 players will be invited to compete in each region based on their performance in past StarCraft II tournaments. In addition, a round of special qualifiers will be held to determine 8 players who will join the invited 24 (more details soon). Once all 32 players are locked in, play will commence and run for a few weeks.
YEAH SO HAPPY ABOUT THIS! Not...
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On April 09 2013 14:24 blade55555 wrote:https://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/9447310/WCS_Season_1_Dates-4_8_2013New details. So awesome the first round this season is pure invitational: Show nested quote + 24 players will be invited to compete in each region based on their performance in past StarCraft II tournaments. In addition, a round of special qualifiers will be held to determine 8 players who will join the invited 24 (more details soon). Once all 32 players are locked in, play will commence and run for a few weeks. YEAH SO HAPPY ABOUT THIS! Not...
You as an amateur might not be, but my favourite players will most likely be invited yay :D
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Have they said what the format is to determine 5th place for each regional?
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United States33330 Posts
On April 08 2013 17:33 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1. No Backsies.
ehehehehehe
I feel like this is not going to end well
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This is so easy to solve, reward koreans but keep them away (Resident Certificate requirement).
The prize pool breakdown using the same ammount of money:
Korea WCS League - $150,000
US WCS League - $75,000
EU WCS League - $75,000
8 Koreans qualified
4 EU
4 US
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EPT
