|
|
|
|
|
On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level.
Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake.
But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why?
|
On April 23 2013 07:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2013 06:53 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 23 2013 06:46 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:38 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:12 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 05:56 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
there is just so many stuff T got to kill Z economy while T also got stuff to be even more safe vs aggression that Z is just fucked right now and whats even worse: it is absolutely no fun to play. never being able to do pressure or attack...all you do is defend defend defend and try not do die...yay so much fun.
Oh sounds like the last year of WOL,where zerg could hold every agression with queens, and where zergs could do some deadly allins. I'm sure you were one of those guys saying that it was all fine back then, right? i am one of those guys who thought BL infestor is boring as fuck and therefore played HOTS beta and no more WoL since 7 or 8 months now. so yeah guess you have to fight another guy for that. thats why i am one of the guys that likes to put on aggression but cant in HOTS since roach hydra sucks in every MU, nydus, burrow movement roaches and ovidrop are still very bad, roach ling (bling) hatchtech aggression also fails now in HOTS so everything Z can do if you want to be aggressive is go muta into ultra. so yeah....i am one of those Z that has fun attacking...which sadly is only possible by doing lairtech all ins or teching to hive...once again. believe me it would be awesome if Z would get a better early and midgame and a worse or more expensive/later available etc. hivetech. You were one of those guys who were saying that "tvz is all fine" (wol) when it wasn't! You don't agree? Let's take a look at some of your posts back then: On July 24 2012 16:40 Decendos wrote:
and yet another round for P and T in Code A. some people will be surprised by the high winrate of P in july and hopefully stop whining about TvZ. cant wait for TLPD stats. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=317#6327On July 18 2012 01:46 Decendos wrote:
+ 11 T in RO24 in GSL Code A + perhaps even 12.
why do T so much whine? its like 6 weeks (?) after queen patch and T win more and more since that. also in GSTL where zerg won everything in TvZ after patch T won more than Z did in TvZ in the last round. just give it time, it got better and will get even better. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=277#5540On July 18 2012 19:39 Decendos wrote:
exactly this. it is favored but its by far too soon to tell if its imbalanced. right now there are 13 of 24 T in Code A finals. on top level they do REALLY fine so no reason to cry.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=287#5725So decendos, why don't you follow your own advice and stop whining about TvZ, just give it time, it will get better, and on top level zergs do REALLY fine so no reason to cry. The game is out for 1 month and 10 days... that was 6 weeks after queen patch, where no one could know that it will turn out to be broken. and as you see i did not once say anything later on and said "TvZ is fine right now". HOTS on the other hand is the way it is around 4-5 months now. there were slight changes but dont say game is out 6 weeks...even top pros started playing 2 months before release and not much was changed since then. just hf with your free wins right now. there will be patches. i am out of here since no T even remotely was talking about "yeah maybe mines are actually too strong...". so there is not even a discussion here just "shut up l2p". wont waste my time with that. gg hf abusing No. Hots is out for 1 month and 10 days, not a single day longer. Beta = TEST version. 1 month and you are going nuts. But the TvZ problem lasted 6 months or more, and that was all fine right? TvZ winrates were a mess during those times. Meanwhile it is now around 52%, so not that bad imo. It took zergs more then a year to discover infestors. Stephano had to show it to you guys for months. At the end stephano was eating code S terrans with roach hydra, and without hot's that would've been the new way to play. But now, in hots, you suddenly expect that zergs have it all figured out after a month? Suddenly it's all the fault of the widow mine. It's not the fault of you having to learn how to micro. Nono, it's the fault of the mine! How long before zergs realise that roach hydra timings would destroy most of these mine players? Around the 11 minute mark, very few mines are out. With good micro, you can roll over the terran. It was possible in wol when terrans had SIEGETANKS, so why wouldn't it against terrans with MINES? Why do so many people revert to the (stupid, irrational) argument that because TvZ used to favor Zerg, it's okay that it might favor Terran now? Never understood that. It's people like you that cause problems in the Middle East to persist for generations. I'm totally serious. Because 52% is better than 60%? Except the win rate is not 52%... April Stats as found in "This week in SC2"
If you look at the numbers in that sheet it's mainly one event that skews the numbers in terrans favor and that is WCS EU qualifiers. If you consider that the best European Zergs and Protoss players were already invited (there were only 3 European Terrans invited) then it's not far fetched that terran is going to have a higher winrate in this event.
Edit: Actually looking further into those stats I'm not sure how those numbers are even calculated. There wasn't a single TvZ in the EPS playoffs yet there are listed some stats for TvZ.
|
On April 23 2013 08:28 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 07:43 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2013 06:53 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 23 2013 06:46 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:38 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:12 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 05:56 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
there is just so many stuff T got to kill Z economy while T also got stuff to be even more safe vs aggression that Z is just fucked right now and whats even worse: it is absolutely no fun to play. never being able to do pressure or attack...all you do is defend defend defend and try not do die...yay so much fun.
Oh sounds like the last year of WOL,where zerg could hold every agression with queens, and where zergs could do some deadly allins. I'm sure you were one of those guys saying that it was all fine back then, right? i am one of those guys who thought BL infestor is boring as fuck and therefore played HOTS beta and no more WoL since 7 or 8 months now. so yeah guess you have to fight another guy for that. thats why i am one of the guys that likes to put on aggression but cant in HOTS since roach hydra sucks in every MU, nydus, burrow movement roaches and ovidrop are still very bad, roach ling (bling) hatchtech aggression also fails now in HOTS so everything Z can do if you want to be aggressive is go muta into ultra. so yeah....i am one of those Z that has fun attacking...which sadly is only possible by doing lairtech all ins or teching to hive...once again. believe me it would be awesome if Z would get a better early and midgame and a worse or more expensive/later available etc. hivetech. You were one of those guys who were saying that "tvz is all fine" (wol) when it wasn't! You don't agree? Let's take a look at some of your posts back then: On July 24 2012 16:40 Decendos wrote:
and yet another round for P and T in Code A. some people will be surprised by the high winrate of P in july and hopefully stop whining about TvZ. cant wait for TLPD stats. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=317#6327On July 18 2012 01:46 Decendos wrote:
+ 11 T in RO24 in GSL Code A + perhaps even 12.
why do T so much whine? its like 6 weeks (?) after queen patch and T win more and more since that. also in GSTL where zerg won everything in TvZ after patch T won more than Z did in TvZ in the last round. just give it time, it got better and will get even better. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=277#5540On July 18 2012 19:39 Decendos wrote:
exactly this. it is favored but its by far too soon to tell if its imbalanced. right now there are 13 of 24 T in Code A finals. on top level they do REALLY fine so no reason to cry.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=287#5725So decendos, why don't you follow your own advice and stop whining about TvZ, just give it time, it will get better, and on top level zergs do REALLY fine so no reason to cry. The game is out for 1 month and 10 days... that was 6 weeks after queen patch, where no one could know that it will turn out to be broken. and as you see i did not once say anything later on and said "TvZ is fine right now". HOTS on the other hand is the way it is around 4-5 months now. there were slight changes but dont say game is out 6 weeks...even top pros started playing 2 months before release and not much was changed since then. just hf with your free wins right now. there will be patches. i am out of here since no T even remotely was talking about "yeah maybe mines are actually too strong...". so there is not even a discussion here just "shut up l2p". wont waste my time with that. gg hf abusing No. Hots is out for 1 month and 10 days, not a single day longer. Beta = TEST version. 1 month and you are going nuts. But the TvZ problem lasted 6 months or more, and that was all fine right? TvZ winrates were a mess during those times. Meanwhile it is now around 52%, so not that bad imo. It took zergs more then a year to discover infestors. Stephano had to show it to you guys for months. At the end stephano was eating code S terrans with roach hydra, and without hot's that would've been the new way to play. But now, in hots, you suddenly expect that zergs have it all figured out after a month? Suddenly it's all the fault of the widow mine. It's not the fault of you having to learn how to micro. Nono, it's the fault of the mine! How long before zergs realise that roach hydra timings would destroy most of these mine players? Around the 11 minute mark, very few mines are out. With good micro, you can roll over the terran. It was possible in wol when terrans had SIEGETANKS, so why wouldn't it against terrans with MINES? Why do so many people revert to the (stupid, irrational) argument that because TvZ used to favor Zerg, it's okay that it might favor Terran now? Never understood that. It's people like you that cause problems in the Middle East to persist for generations. I'm totally serious. Because 52% is better than 60%? Except the win rate is not 52%... April Stats as found in "This week in SC2" If you look at the numbers in that sheet it's mainly one event that skews the numbers in terrans favor and that is WCS EU qualifiers. If you consider that the best European Zergs and Protoss players were already invited (there were only 3 European Terrans invited) then it's not far fetched that terran is going to have a higher winrate in this event. Edit: Actually looking further into those stats I'm not sure how those numbers are even calculated. There wasn't a single TvZ in the EPS playoffs yet there are listed some stats for TvZ.
It is a random google doc without links... so....
|
On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why?
Comparing WoL to HotS it's almost a must that TvZ is imbalanced, yet when I see or play it it doesn't feel that bad:
Assuming the game goes quite standard, ie MMMM against muta/ling/bling etc. the notable changes are:
For terran:
+ gains widowmine, so good it's made instead of tanks despite tanks having free siege now
+ medivac speed boost
+ reaper openings slightly better
+ mech/air armor combined
+ raven buffed
For zerg:
+ muta's better
+ ultralisk buffed quite a bit
- infestor nerfed
If it was slightly in favor of zerg in HotS it definately must be at least slightly in favor of terran now just considering how much more they improved. Of course there were plenty of other changes like hydra's, vipers, hellbats and swarmhosts but they don't really see have much use in the new 'standard' TvZ.
Especially prehive zerg is just screwed. You can easily go as far as saying that the infestor nerf outweighs the muta buff while terran only got buffs midgame. Ultralisks lategame make up quite a bit because they are far better but I think if the terrans play MMMM aggressively well you can't really make it to lategame without being far behind. Even when getting there the classic broodlords aren't even that scary anymore since terran can easily have decently upgraded vikings and ravens to counter that.
I think in a month or so widowmines and/or medivacs will have to be nerfed. Widowmines probably some sort of radius nerf with perhaps slightly higher splash damage in return, making it worse at kill packs of banes/lings but just as good or even better against P/T. Medivacs obviously will have their speed nerfed a little bit soon, I don't see it that staying at all
|
On April 23 2013 08:58 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why? Comparing WoL to HotS it's almost a must that TvZ is imbalanced, yet when I see or play it it doesn't feel that bad: Assuming the game goes quite standard, ie MMMM against muta/ling/bling etc. the notable changes are: For terran: + gains widowmine, so good it's made instead of tanks despite tanks having free siege now + medivac speed boost + reaper openings slightly better + mech/air armor combined + raven buffed For zerg: + muta's better + ultralisk buffed quite a bit - infestor nerfed If it was slightly in favor of zerg in HotS it definately must be at least slightly in favor of terran now just considering how much more they improved. Of course there were plenty of other changes like hydra's, vipers, hellbats and swarmhosts but they don't really see have much use in the new 'standard' TvZ. Especially prehive zerg is just screwed. You can easily go as far as saying that the infestor nerf outweighs the muta buff while terran only got buffs midgame. Ultralisks lategame make up quite a bit because they are far better but I think if the terrans play MMMM aggressively well you can't really make it to lategame without being far behind. Even when getting there the classic broodlords aren't even that scary anymore since terran can easily have decently upgraded vikings and ravens to counter that. I think in a month or so widowmines and/or medivacs will have to be nerfed. Widowmines probably some sort of radius nerf with perhaps slightly higher splash damage in return, making it worse at kill packs of banes/lings but just as good or even better against P/T. Medivacs obviously will have their speed nerfed a little bit soon, I don't see it that staying at all
My problem with this mindset is that watching GSL matches the Widow Mines hits less than 5-6 zerglings half the time. Players like Life, Symbol, Curious, Roro, etc... make the widowmine look absolutely awesome and about as effective as the WoL Siege Tanks at best.
I thought this was the type of stuff people wanted? Units that split the bad players from the good players.
|
On April 23 2013 08:58 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why? Comparing WoL to HotS it's almost a must that TvZ is imbalanced, yet when I see or play it it doesn't feel that bad: Assuming the game goes quite standard, ie MMMM against muta/ling/bling etc. the notable changes are: For terran: + gains widowmine, so good it's made instead of tanks despite tanks having free siege now + medivac speed boost + reaper openings slightly better + mech/air armor combined + raven buffed For zerg: + muta's better + ultralisk buffed quite a bit - infestor nerfed If it was slightly in favor of zerg in HotS it definately must be at least slightly in favor of terran now just considering how much more they improved. Of course there were plenty of other changes like hydra's, vipers, hellbats and swarmhosts but they don't really see have much use in the new 'standard' TvZ. Especially prehive zerg is just screwed. You can easily go as far as saying that the infestor nerf outweighs the muta buff while terran only got buffs midgame. Ultralisks lategame make up quite a bit because they are far better but I think if the terrans play MMMM aggressively well you can't really make it to lategame without being far behind. Even when getting there the classic broodlords aren't even that scary anymore since terran can easily have decently upgraded vikings and ravens to counter that. I think in a month or so widowmines and/or medivacs will have to be nerfed. Widowmines probably some sort of radius nerf with perhaps slightly higher splash damage in return, making it worse at kill packs of banes/lings but just as good or even better against P/T. Medivacs obviously will have their speed nerfed a little bit soon, I don't see it that staying at all
U want to know why tanks are never used anymore? because vipers make them absolutely useless
|
|
|
|
|
On April 23 2013 09:12 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why? Statistics are hard proof. I may not know what extent they mean to balance in the scheme of things but imo statistics are still better sources then amateur game knowledge.
Thedwf has near-encycolopedic knowledge of the pro games played in every major tournament and is a GM-level player, while you just make appeals to some (irrelevant) post made by Ret and some cherry-picked statistics (i.e. not the 18-15 tvz map score cited contra by thedwf), and you claim that your statistics are better sources speaking towards game balance than the reasoned, and expert, opinion of thedwf.
Srs?
|
On April 23 2013 07:30 BigAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:56 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:53 sparklyresidue wrote:On April 23 2013 06:46 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:38 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 06:12 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 05:56 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
there is just so many stuff T got to kill Z economy while T also got stuff to be even more safe vs aggression that Z is just fucked right now and whats even worse: it is absolutely no fun to play. never being able to do pressure or attack...all you do is defend defend defend and try not do die...yay so much fun.
Oh sounds like the last year of WOL,where zerg could hold every agression with queens, and where zergs could do some deadly allins. I'm sure you were one of those guys saying that it was all fine back then, right? i am one of those guys who thought BL infestor is boring as fuck and therefore played HOTS beta and no more WoL since 7 or 8 months now. so yeah guess you have to fight another guy for that. thats why i am one of the guys that likes to put on aggression but cant in HOTS since roach hydra sucks in every MU, nydus, burrow movement roaches and ovidrop are still very bad, roach ling (bling) hatchtech aggression also fails now in HOTS so everything Z can do if you want to be aggressive is go muta into ultra. so yeah....i am one of those Z that has fun attacking...which sadly is only possible by doing lairtech all ins or teching to hive...once again. believe me it would be awesome if Z would get a better early and midgame and a worse or more expensive/later available etc. hivetech. You were one of those guys who were saying that "tvz is all fine" (wol) when it wasn't! You don't agree? Let's take a look at some of your posts back then: On July 24 2012 16:40 Decendos wrote:
and yet another round for P and T in Code A. some people will be surprised by the high winrate of P in july and hopefully stop whining about TvZ. cant wait for TLPD stats. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=317#6327On July 18 2012 01:46 Decendos wrote:
+ 11 T in RO24 in GSL Code A + perhaps even 12.
why do T so much whine? its like 6 weeks (?) after queen patch and T win more and more since that. also in GSTL where zerg won everything in TvZ after patch T won more than Z did in TvZ in the last round. just give it time, it got better and will get even better. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=277#5540On July 18 2012 19:39 Decendos wrote:
exactly this. it is favored but its by far too soon to tell if its imbalanced. right now there are 13 of 24 T in Code A finals. on top level they do REALLY fine so no reason to cry.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=287#5725So decendos, why don't you follow your own advice and stop whining about TvZ, just give it time, it will get better, and on top level zergs do REALLY fine so no reason to cry. The game is out for 1 month and 10 days... that was 6 weeks after queen patch, where no one could know that it will turn out to be broken. and as you see i did not once say anything later on and said "TvZ is fine right now". HOTS on the other hand is the way it is around 4-5 months now. there were slight changes but dont say game is out 6 weeks...even top pros started playing 2 months before release and not much was changed since then. just hf with your free wins right now. there will be patches. i am out of here since no T even remotely was talking about "yeah maybe mines are actually too strong...". so there is not even a discussion here just "shut up l2p". wont waste my time with that. gg hf abusing No. Hots is out for 1 month and 10 days, not a single day longer. Beta = TEST version. 1 month and you are going nuts. But the TvZ problem lasted 6 months or more, and that was all fine right? TvZ winrates were a mess during those times. Meanwhile it is now around 52%, so not that bad imo. It took zergs more then a year to discover infestors. Stephano had to show it to you guys for months. At the end stephano was eating code S terrans with roach hydra, and without hot's that would've been the new way to play. But now, in hots, you suddenly expect that zergs have it all figured out after a month? Suddenly it's all the fault of the widow mine. It's not the fault of you having to learn how to micro. Nono, it's the fault of the mine! How long before zergs realise that roach hydra timings would destroy most of these mine players? Around the 11 minute mark, very few mines are out. With good micro, you can roll over the terran. It was possible in wol when terrans had SIEGETANKS, so why wouldn't it against terrans with MINES? Why do so many people revert to the (stupid, irrational) argument that because TvZ used to favor Zerg, it's okay that it might favor Terran now? Never understood that. It's people like you that cause problems in the Middle East to persist for generations. I'm totally serious. What I'm saying is that most zergs agreed that the wol tvz days were totally fine. Now we are in a more balanced situation as we were in wol, and suddenly the game is broken and in terrans favour. And seriously, your middle east comment... No where does he state, or even imply, that iimbalance is OK because TvZ use to favor zerg. He is simply saying that right now the win-rates are acceptable and that zerg players should give it time before they cry to nerfs. And I sincerely hope the Middle East comment is a joke
Yeah I try not to let politics and starcraft actually mix ^_^
|
On April 23 2013 10:14 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 09:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why? Statistics are hard proof. I may not know what extent they mean to balance in the scheme of things but imo statistics are still better sources then amateur game knowledge. Thedwf has near-encycolopedic knowledge of the pro games played in every major tournament and is a GM-level player, while you just make appeals to some (irrelevant) post made by Ret and some cherry-picked statistics (i.e. not the 18-15 tvz map score cited contra by thedwf), and you claim that your statistics are better sources speaking towards game balance than the reasoned, and expert, opinion of thedwf. Srs?
What race does this idol of yours play?
|
|
|
On April 23 2013 10:18 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 10:14 IgnE wrote:On April 23 2013 09:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 08:23 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 07:39 Emzeeshady wrote:
My point is that you have no clue why progamers do what they do when you are not even close to their level. Obviously I don't know everything and I am far from being Code A/S level, but being GM for the sixth season in a row and occasionally winning some EU pros, I daresay I have enough knowledge to analyze games to a certain extent, especially when it comes to something as straightforward as defending a 8-8-8. I can even understand why they make such or such mistake. But I must say your double standard is quite hilarious. You claim I am clueless about what happens in pro games, like most of the people, yet somehow you still "know" TvZ is imbalanced? How so? Even statistics can't help you if you go this way, because you have not enough game knowledge to determine what causes the winrates. Yet we still see you complaining TvZ is not balanced. Why? Statistics are hard proof. I may not know what extent they mean to balance in the scheme of things but imo statistics are still better sources then amateur game knowledge. Thedwf has near-encycolopedic knowledge of the pro games played in every major tournament and is a GM-level player, while you just make appeals to some (irrelevant) post made by Ret and some cherry-picked statistics (i.e. not the 18-15 tvz map score cited contra by thedwf), and you claim that your statistics are better sources speaking towards game balance than the reasoned, and expert, opinion of thedwf. Srs? What race does this idol of yours play?
What race does Emzeeshady play? What race do you play? I guess the only balance comments that are legitimate are those that go against the race the commenter habitually plays. How does that question advance the discussion? Thedwf's comments stand on their own merits apart from the race that he plays.
Not to mention that Emzeeshady's comments are made tangential to discussions about how two zergs who faced the 8-8-8 mustered objectively bad defenses in response to it, yet he is using those games (and others like it) in his knowledge- and skill-blind use of statistics to determine game balance.
|
|
|
|
|
The changes seem completely irrelevant to TvZ. I don't really understand how making burrow any different will really change any early aggression in the match up. I'm probably wrong, but I just can't see why any change would effect any aggression Zerg can do.
Usually you'll have a small pack of roaches arrive when burrow completes or is about to finish. Reduce the cost, and you might be able to get an extra roach out. Reducing the research time and what? It's either finished a lot sooner than you can attack on most maps, or just in time? Honestly, all I can see it doing is making reaper opening almost essential to get good scouting off.
|
On April 23 2013 14:06 haffy wrote:
The changes seem completely irrelevant to TvZ. I don't really understand how making burrow any different will really change any early aggression in the match up. I'm probably wrong, but I just can't see why any change would effect any aggression Zerg can do.
Usually you'll have a small pack of roaches arrive when burrow completes or is about to finish. Reduce the cost, and you might be able to get an extra roach out. Reducing the research time and what? It's either finished a lot sooner than you can attack on most maps, or just in time? Honestly, all I can see it doing is making reaper opening almost essential to get good scouting off.
If they reduce the cost/duration of the burrow research, then zerg will (in theory) be able to set banelings traps in key locations in order to deal with the first push of a terran playing bio-mine. This of course is theorycrafting but would be awesome!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
