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On April 23 2013 00:53 DifuntO wrote:
Zerg has to actually micro now and look at all the reactions.It's pretty funny.
What i see from WCS Korea is that the best player almost always wins in TvZ.
They have to micro, make good flanks, have good map awarness, make counter attacks, be more aggressive...
In other words, they have to play zerg style....and not toss style.
If u zergs want to win in WoL turtle style, just switch to protoss.
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all the T here should go play some Z. hf playing vs reaper into helion into mine into MMM every single game and not be able to do anything even knowing exactly T does it 100% of the time. they seriously finally need to patch...there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now...thats by far enough time to finally patch things.
On April 23 2013 01:39 sage_francis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 00:53 DifuntO wrote:
Zerg has to actually micro now and look at all the reactions.It's pretty funny.
What i see from WCS Korea is that the best player almost always wins in TvZ. They have to micro, make good flanks, have good map awarness, make counter attacks, be more aggressive... In other words, they have to play zerg style....and not toss style. If u zergs want to win in WoL turtle style, just switch to protoss.
be more aggressive...WRONG! zerg needs to defend even more and cant be aggressive...thats whats so insanely stupid right now. reaper scouts everything, WM and/or free siege tanks defends every aggression. all Z does is defend. watch any TvZ pro stream/tournament. T got more to pressure AND more to defend while Z got...nothing early game...mutabuff but sick infestor nerf midgame....and yeah hf surviving til hive where Z actually got new viable things. oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper you will have 50 min = 1 drone less in the early game just because 888 reaper exists. another very big thing early game where every drone matters. there is just so many stuff T got to kill Z economy while T also got stuff to be even more safe vs aggression that Z is just fucked right now and whats even worse: it is absolutely no fun to play. never being able to do pressure or attack...all you do is defend defend defend and try not do die...yay so much fun.
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On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
all the T here should go play some Z. hf playing vs reaper into helion into mine into MMM every single game and not be able to do anything even knowing exactly T does it 100% of the time. they seriously finally need to patch...there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now...thats by far enough time to finally patch things.
Game is out for one month and 10 days → you add the Lings of Liberty period to argue that "there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now" and that the game should thus be patched? Good job combining two different games and adding apples to oranges to obtain a fake extended period.
be more aggressive...WRONG! zerg needs to defend even more and cant be aggressive...thats whats so insanely stupid right now. reaper scouts everything, WM and/or free siege tanks defends every aggression. all Z does is defend. watch any TvZ pro stream/tournament. T got more to pressure AND more to defend while Z got...nothing early game...mutabuff but sick infestor nerf midgame....and yeah hf surviving til hive where Z actually got new viable things. ^^
DRG uses agressive play and only narrowly falls short because he ends up being 1/1 against 3/3 bio in the Bel'shir Vestige game against YoDa.
Curious wins MarineKing using constant midgame lings/banes/mutas agression.
Against FanTaSy on Whirlwind, TRUE goes for no less than seven Baneling busts in a row. In the Akilon Wastes game, he uses an agressive 2-bases Speedroaches Nydus attack.
Symbol kills KeeN with the same trick on Red City.
Shine uses a 3-bases Speedroaches attack against KeeN on Bel'shir Vestige, deals huge damage with his Mutalisk fleet throughout the following game on Star Station.
Soulkey scouts Maru going CC rax CC and reactively punishes him with a Baneling bust on Whirlwind.
Soulkey goes for a Roach/Zerglings attack against Maru on the Red City game of the second series and kills 16 SCVs with that.
But what do all those Korean Zergs know, since Decendos, the Zerg Master, has already decided that "Zerg can't be agressive"?
oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper
You don't need to drone scout that early not to lose against 8-8-8, stop talking nonsense...
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On April 23 2013 01:39 sage_francis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 00:53 DifuntO wrote:
Zerg has to actually micro now and look at all the reactions.It's pretty funny.
What i see from WCS Korea is that the best player almost always wins in TvZ. They have to micro, make good flanks, have good map awarness, make counter attacks, be more aggressive... In other words, they have to play zerg style....and not toss style. If u zergs want to win in WoL turtle style, just switch to protoss.
Yeah its hilarious, zergs actually have to micro now instead of 1-a click and make simple flanks. I keep making great counter points on how they can combat mines or go watch some of the best players, but mr. master league and lower knows best right?
I'll keep saying it until they read it. I don't see how any of the stats gathered in this thread mean anything when the balance isn't focused around the highest levels of play where strategies are still being developed and even the best players are still learning how to adapt and deal with new and odd compositions.
This thread and people trying to defend the fact they don't want to learn something new disgust me.
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oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper
I drone scout on 13 and I've never lost to 8-8-8, you just have to not play like a greedy fuck. -High master Zerg
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You can also hold off the 888 without drone scouting but drone scouting is actually not that bad since it allows you to go 3 hatch before pool against CC first as well.
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On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper you will have 50 min = 1 drone less in the early game just because 888 reaper exists
I've seen 8-8-8 zero times in the GSL so far. Are the Terran players just being nice to their Zerg opponents?
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On April 23 2013 03:27 spalding wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper you will have 50 min = 1 drone less in the early game just because 888 reaper exists
I've seen 8-8-8 zero times in the GSL so far. Are the Terran players just being nice to their Zerg opponents?
Bomber vs RorO, Star Station. ~Even game.
Maru vs Bboong, Star Station. Awful defence, freewin for Maru.
Maru vs Soulkey, Akilon Wastes. Awful defence, freewin for Maru.
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On April 23 2013 03:27 spalding wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper you will have 50 min = 1 drone less in the early game just because 888 reaper exists
I've seen 8-8-8 zero times in the GSL so far. Are the Terran players just being nice to their Zerg opponents?
Maru used is versus BboongBboong just 4 days ago, I think that's that only time I've seen it. Don't say things that aren't true.
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On April 23 2013 04:02 bertolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 03:27 spalding wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper you will have 50 min = 1 drone less in the early game just because 888 reaper exists
I've seen 8-8-8 zero times in the GSL so far. Are the Terran players just being nice to their Zerg opponents? Maru used is versus BboongBboong just 4 days ago, I think that's that only time I've seen it. Don't say things that aren't true.
It's not untrue to confess one's own ignorance 
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On April 23 2013 02:11 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
all the T here should go play some Z. hf playing vs reaper into helion into mine into MMM every single game and not be able to do anything even knowing exactly T does it 100% of the time. they seriously finally need to patch...there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now...thats by far enough time to finally patch things. Game is out for one month and 10 days → you add the Lings of Liberty period to argue that "there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now" and that the game should thus be patched? Good job combining two different games and adding apples to oranges to obtain a fake extended period. Show nested quote +be more aggressive...WRONG! zerg needs to defend even more and cant be aggressive...thats whats so insanely stupid right now. reaper scouts everything, WM and/or free siege tanks defends every aggression. all Z does is defend. watch any TvZ pro stream/tournament. T got more to pressure AND more to defend while Z got...nothing early game...mutabuff but sick infestor nerf midgame....and yeah hf surviving til hive where Z actually got new viable things. ^^ DRG uses agressive play and only narrowly falls short because he ends up being 1/1 against 3/3 bio in the Bel'shir Vestige game against YoDa. Curious wins MarineKing using constant midgame lings/banes/mutas agression. Against FanTaSy on Whirlwind, TRUE goes for no less than seven Baneling busts in a row. In the Akilon Wastes game, he uses an agressive 2-bases Speedroaches Nydus attack. Symbol kills KeeN with the same trick on Red City. Shine uses a 3-bases Speedroaches attack against KeeN on Bel'shir Vestige, deals huge damage with his Mutalisk fleet throughout the following game on Star Station. Soulkey scouts Maru going CC rax CC and reactively punishes him with a Baneling bust on Whirlwind. Soulkey goes for a Roach/Zerglings attack against Maru on the Red City game of the second series and kills 16 SCVs with that. But what do all those Korean Zergs know, since Decendos, the Zerg Master, has already decided that "Zerg can't be agressive"? You don't need to drone scout that early not to lose against 8-8-8, stop talking nonsense...
- its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release
- so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine. the other games were hatchtech aggression did damage was vs gasless openings which are 100% like WoL and have the same viability than in WoL since Z early game hasnt changed at all (well ovispeed and burrow seem OP rofl) and T plays the same with gasless openings.
so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems. there will be a small build time nerf to reaper and small nerfs to mines, hellbats and speedvacs. nothing big but small things will happen and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. hf "discussing" some more lol.
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there will be a small build time nerf to reaper and small nerfs to mines, hellbats and speedvacs. nothing big but small things will happen and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. hf "discussing" some more lol.
Ok David Kim.
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On April 23 2013 04:05 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 02:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
all the T here should go play some Z. hf playing vs reaper into helion into mine into MMM every single game and not be able to do anything even knowing exactly T does it 100% of the time. they seriously finally need to patch...there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now...thats by far enough time to finally patch things. Game is out for one month and 10 days → you add the Lings of Liberty period to argue that "there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now" and that the game should thus be patched? Good job combining two different games and adding apples to oranges to obtain a fake extended period. be more aggressive...WRONG! zerg needs to defend even more and cant be aggressive...thats whats so insanely stupid right now. reaper scouts everything, WM and/or free siege tanks defends every aggression. all Z does is defend. watch any TvZ pro stream/tournament. T got more to pressure AND more to defend while Z got...nothing early game...mutabuff but sick infestor nerf midgame....and yeah hf surviving til hive where Z actually got new viable things. ^^ DRG uses agressive play and only narrowly falls short because he ends up being 1/1 against 3/3 bio in the Bel'shir Vestige game against YoDa. Curious wins MarineKing using constant midgame lings/banes/mutas agression. Against FanTaSy on Whirlwind, TRUE goes for no less than seven Baneling busts in a row. In the Akilon Wastes game, he uses an agressive 2-bases Speedroaches Nydus attack. Symbol kills KeeN with the same trick on Red City. Shine uses a 3-bases Speedroaches attack against KeeN on Bel'shir Vestige, deals huge damage with his Mutalisk fleet throughout the following game on Star Station. Soulkey scouts Maru going CC rax CC and reactively punishes him with a Baneling bust on Whirlwind. Soulkey goes for a Roach/Zerglings attack against Maru on the Red City game of the second series and kills 16 SCVs with that. But what do all those Korean Zergs know, since Decendos, the Zerg Master, has already decided that "Zerg can't be agressive"? oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper You don't need to drone scout that early not to lose against 8-8-8, stop talking nonsense... - its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release - so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine. the other games were hatchtech aggression did damage was vs gasless openings which are 100% like WoL and have the same viability than in WoL since Z early game hasnt changed at all (well ovispeed and burrow seem OP rofl) and T plays the same with gasless openings. so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems. there will be a small build time nerf to reaper and small nerfs to mines, hellbats and speedvacs. nothing big but small things will happen and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. hf "discussing" some more lol.
Did you just say that TheDwf, the walking talking database of every pro-game strategy in memory, is someone you cannot have an OBJECTIVE discussion with? You're bonkers. How about you provide example games of the half-baked theorycrafted examples you 'discuss'.
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On April 23 2013 04:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 04:05 Decendos wrote:On April 23 2013 02:11 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
all the T here should go play some Z. hf playing vs reaper into helion into mine into MMM every single game and not be able to do anything even knowing exactly T does it 100% of the time. they seriously finally need to patch...there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now...thats by far enough time to finally patch things. Game is out for one month and 10 days → you add the Lings of Liberty period to argue that "there is literally 0 fun to play Z since 6 or even 7 months now" and that the game should thus be patched? Good job combining two different games and adding apples to oranges to obtain a fake extended period. be more aggressive...WRONG! zerg needs to defend even more and cant be aggressive...thats whats so insanely stupid right now. reaper scouts everything, WM and/or free siege tanks defends every aggression. all Z does is defend. watch any TvZ pro stream/tournament. T got more to pressure AND more to defend while Z got...nothing early game...mutabuff but sick infestor nerf midgame....and yeah hf surviving til hive where Z actually got new viable things. ^^ DRG uses agressive play and only narrowly falls short because he ends up being 1/1 against 3/3 bio in the Bel'shir Vestige game against YoDa. Curious wins MarineKing using constant midgame lings/banes/mutas agression. Against FanTaSy on Whirlwind, TRUE goes for no less than seven Baneling busts in a row. In the Akilon Wastes game, he uses an agressive 2-bases Speedroaches Nydus attack. Symbol kills KeeN with the same trick on Red City. Shine uses a 3-bases Speedroaches attack against KeeN on Bel'shir Vestige, deals huge damage with his Mutalisk fleet throughout the following game on Star Station. Soulkey scouts Maru going CC rax CC and reactively punishes him with a Baneling bust on Whirlwind. Soulkey goes for a Roach/Zerglings attack against Maru on the Red City game of the second series and kills 16 SCVs with that. But what do all those Korean Zergs know, since Decendos, the Zerg Master, has already decided that "Zerg can't be agressive"? oh and since you need to dronescout on 9 or 10 now or BO loss to 888 reaper You don't need to drone scout that early not to lose against 8-8-8, stop talking nonsense... - its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release - so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine. the other games were hatchtech aggression did damage was vs gasless openings which are 100% like WoL and have the same viability than in WoL since Z early game hasnt changed at all (well ovispeed and burrow seem OP rofl) and T plays the same with gasless openings. so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems. there will be a small build time nerf to reaper and small nerfs to mines, hellbats and speedvacs. nothing big but small things will happen and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. hf "discussing" some more lol. Did you just say that TheDwf, the walking talking database of every pro-game strategy in memory, is someone you cannot have an OBJECTIVE discussion with? You're bonkers. How about you provide example games of the half-baked theorycrafted examples you 'discuss'.
no not him. he just misunderstood me and thought i meant all aggression while i was talking about hatchtech aggression vs reaper into helion into mine which i yet have to see.
objective discussion was more to most other guys which are defending every single aspect of T while even pros like demuslim say different...
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On April 22 2013 21:26 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 21:05 kamicom wrote:
I like how the vast majority of people defending widow mines and equivocating the meaning of "balance" just happen to be Terran... I've been watching the past two seasons of GSL. And all the successful Terrans have a pretty obvious trend: Medivac afterburners, hellbats, widow mines.
The widow mine's just a cheap, fast-producing, expendable, cloaked, mini-seige tank that attacks air. It's too cost-effective and useful in too many scenarios (people argue it's a defensive unit but that's bs. Flash and other T's this season in GSL showed that WM really are just mini-siege tanks). The worst part is that it doesn't reward T's for doing anything positive. You just start burrowing them all over, then kite with marines for a cost-effective battle. Yep, because terran needs such a unit. Ever wondered why every terran was almost always going mech in the last months of WoL (even top Koreans players)? because playing bio was just too hard because of banelings/infest and the result was a win/rate ratio of 42% for TvZ for 6 months. Now with mines, things are even, real micro are required from terran (split, kite, multitask) and from zerg (split zerglings, flank correctly, respond to multi-drops). Thanks to widow-mine, we now can clearly distinguish real zergs (life, symbol, soO for exemple) from all the patchzergs that flourished during the last 6 months of WoL. Of course, we see a lot of whinning from zergs in every league, and especially masters, since they are not used to having to micro thus lose more than they did before HotS
Actually, It really doesn't matter what you typed here. Because none of the facts you contributed has relevance on the imbalancy of Widow Mine. Widow Mine will definitely get patch because majority of the zerg player complains about the unit and Blizzard will definitely do something before all the zerg quits. While Terran is the least likely unit to get play among 3 of the races, so Widow Mine will get patch.
"Yep, because terran needs such a unit." No Terran doesn't need Widow Mine, your race is designed to split your armies and dropping. Having Hellbats and Ignite burner is a gift from Blizzard.
In my honest opinion, Ignite burner, free siege tank, hell bat, widow mine is not nesscary in HOTS but for the sake of new expansion, Blizzard has to create new units for the sake of your boring and garbage race.
42% in TVZ against infestors and banelings is not imbalance.Terran is a shitty race and to be honest having 42% win rate is quite amazing. Terran just needs to learn how to play, but majority of them doesn't know how to deal with them, Terran is designed to micro harder than any other race to overcome their opponent. If you cannot adapt to be the true Terran, quit the race.
I think Blizzard needs to nerf Reaper, bunker, planetary fortress, tanks, hellions, banshee, widow mine, hell bats, medivac and Ravens. Reapers should cost 100 gas to prevent early scouting and harass. Bunker should cost 150 minerals build. Planetary Fortress is too strong. It should do 20 dps. Tanks should have no siege tank and less hp. Hellions should have the speed of marines. Banshee should've no cloak, widow mine should cost 200/100, hell bats should cost 50 gas. Medivac should heap 1 hp per second. Ravens should have no purpose other than detecting units.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 23 2013 04:05 Decendos wrote:
- its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release
Yeah, you can totally compare the current Oracles with the Entomb variant, and those Warhounds pushes are still super scary.
- so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine.
So? 2-bases timings are extinct for nearly a year in TvZ, why should you be entitled to have valid ones?
so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems.
Yes, I will defend my race against the senseless diatribes of uninformed people who don't even know their own race and refuse to adapt, and yet keep complaining despite having poor knowledge about the game.
and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc.
So? Is DeMusliM the ultimate judge about balance, including the units of his own race?
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On April 23 2013 05:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 04:05 Decendos wrote:
- its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release Yeah, you can totally compare the current Oracles with the Entomb variant, and those Warhounds pushes are still super scary. Show nested quote +- so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine. So? 2-bases timings are extinct for nearly a year in TvZ, why should you be entitled to have valid ones? Show nested quote +so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems. Yes, I will defend my race against the senseless diatribes of uninformed people who don't even know their own race and refuse to adapt, and yet keep complaining despite having poor knowledge about the game. Show nested quote +and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. So? Is DeMusliM the ultimate judge about balance, including the units of his own race?
so you are this "obejctive guy"? lol.
ZvT HOTS mutas, mines etc. are there since 3-5 months now. and why are you talking about oracles than we are talking ZvT?
2 base timings arent extinct. roach ling or roach ling bling aggression was viable in WoL. they arent in HOTS while T got a shitload of new timings and aggression. but well there is hope, maybe blizz will realize that burrow is 100% useless with the high cost and long time it takes and will buff it.
maybe they wont and they just nerf reaper build time a bit and also nerf speedvacs and WM. hellbats arent a problem imo, its hellbat drops which speedvacs are the problem, not the bats.
so we will see how blizz decides to nerf T or buff Z/P but be prepared that patches will come and are needed.
oh and btw there are also buffs needed for T...basically buff tank damage while increasing siege time would make them not OP but much stronger and would make mech more viable. also buffs to other underused units like oracles, hydras and SHs or things like nydus, ovidrop, autoturrets etc. would be very nice. really hope blizz makes more stuff viable.
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On April 08 2013 09:59 dsjoerg wrote:
Of course this doesn't exactly prove that Widow Mines are OP...
lol no it doesn't, maybe it shows that people don't know how to react yet but it's going to get figured out sooner or later
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On April 23 2013 05:17 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:10 TheDwf wrote:On April 23 2013 04:05 Decendos wrote:
- its 6 or 7 months now since beta started. yeah somethings changed but most is a lot longer in the game as it is than only the 6 weeks since release Yeah, you can totally compare the current Oracles with the Entomb variant, and those Warhounds pushes are still super scary. - so basically you post "aggression" from lairtech then i was talking about VIABLE (= you arent all in) hatchtech aggression being impossible vs reaper into helion into mine. So? 2-bases timings are extinct for nearly a year in TvZ, why should you be entitled to have valid ones? so yeah hf defending your race. an objective discussion isnt possible it seems. Yes, I will defend my race against the senseless diatribes of uninformed people who don't even know their own race and refuse to adapt, and yet keep complaining despite having poor knowledge about the game. and thats a good thing since even T players like demuslim say for example hellbats are way too cost efficient etc. So? Is DeMusliM the ultimate judge about balance, including the units of his own race? so you are this "obejctive guy"? lol. ZvT HOTS mutas, mines etc. are there since 3-5 months now. and why are you talking about oracles than we are talking ZvT? 2 base timings arent extinct. roach ling or roach ling bling aggression was viable in WoL. they arent in HOTS while T got a shitload of new timings and aggression. but well there is hope, maybe blizz will realize that burrow is 100% useless with the high cost and long time it takes and will buff it. maybe they wont and they just nerf reaper build time a bit and also nerf speedvacs and WM. hellbats arent a problem imo, its hellbat drops which speedvacs are the problem, not the bats. so we will see how blizz decides to nerf T or buff Z/P but be prepared that patches will come and are needed. oh and btw there are also buffs needed for T...basically buff tank damage while increasing siege time would make them not OP but much stronger and would make mech more viable. also buffs to other underused units like oracles, hydras and SHs or things like nydus, ovidrop, autoturrets etc. would be very nice. really hope blizz makes more stuff viable.
It's not even true. If you scout the Terran going for 3 CC you can still punish him with roaches or a bane bust.
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EPT
