On April 09 2013 06:00 Maesy wrote: This could all be so easily solved if widow mines would just die after their first attack. There's absolutely NO reason why they need more than one charge when they're already so cheap in the first place.
They might be too weak vs zerg (or anyone?) then since zerglings always lead armies due to speed, and overlords have more than 125 health. That said, if their range was increased (to like 7) and auto-attack turned off (unless the player wanted them wasted on small units), it could be useful as a kamikaze unit maybe
On April 09 2013 02:47 avilo wrote: The only thing people should take from this is that all of the new units have had an impact on the game, which was quite obvious and it's quite unnecessary to present an entire set of statistical data to make such a common sense statement.
I would not go make assumptions for people on what is obvious and what is not. Many people would rather follow facts and data than just look at subjective games.Heck, some people might not even watch games much. The data is a useful indicator to see that widow mines, like marines, are a critical component in the terran army.
Statistics like that would help prove that units like scouts or dark archons were not effective enough in BW instead of people just subjectively looking at the unit's stats or the amount of success it's seemingly had in professional/observed games.
On April 09 2013 02:47 avilo wrote: So, now do this for vipers, tempests, void rays, and oracles in early game TvP openings please
OP obviously had an agenda, regardless of how good/bad/accurate the statistics are.
I think we all invite him to do a similar statistical analysis for vipers, and oracles from the other races.
See, the thing is, it's easy to lie with statistics, especially when you only show one perspective.
The only thing people should take from this is that all of the new units have had an impact on the game, which was quite obvious and it's quite unnecessary to present an entire set of statistical data to make such a common sense statement.
What people should not take from this thread? "Widow mine is OP." As I said, any math majors or people willing to put time into such statistics such as this, go ahead and do one for the viper, for the oracle, the new DT, and the myriad of other new units. You'll probably find a similar set of conclusions that "the new units have impacted their respective races win percentages."
I love looking at statistical data, what I do not love is when there is an agenda behind it. It's quite obvious this thread is capitalizing on all of the recent "T OP" hysteria.
While I agree with you, you were one of the vocal leaders of the "Z OP" hysteria. Forever.
I was indeed...back when roaches were 1 supply during the wings of liberty beta.Beta.Beta.
There should be a sticky with introductory study design/statistics or something so that these kind of threads aren't taken seriously. You can make these kind of garbage 'studies' say anything you want about anything when you cherry pick values. The OP tells us literally nothing useful.
Still interested that more widow mines is correlated with more wins.
Rsq of 0.097 means no correlation. I repeat - there is no correlation between increasing %WM of army and win rate. None. Zero. One has nothing to do with the other.
I had written this and had to step away. Not surprised to see this devolve into the balance-whining thread for which it always seemed destined.
Why would masters replays (especially since you include eu/na server) be any indicator of balance? The mine takes skill to play against, so of course players who are meh at the game are more likely to loose to more of something that is hard to play against. Besides the fact that I see no reason why you would ever balance the game around anything besides pro level, not masters...
Widow mines are useful in holding off early agression. You can plant one in each mineral field with a couple turrets to defend vs mutas. After that, they become quite bad.
Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build mines in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t game and shit loads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream ill like to hear anyone defending the widow mine after that
On April 09 2013 06:49 Benjamin99 wrote: Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t and shitloads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream
I saw that game. He did the same thing to Idra yesterday. I can't believe that works? He beat idra off of 2 base (against idra's 4/5) building nothing but widow mines. Really changed my opinion on their being balanced.
On April 09 2013 06:49 Benjamin99 wrote: Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t and shitloads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream
I saw that game. He did the same thing to Idra yesterday. I can't believe that works? He beat idra off of 2 base (against idra's 4/5) building nothing but widow mines. Really changed my opinion on their being balanced.
Its so broken I got no idea how this didn't get fixed in beta. Dont blizzard got like a Q&A department this is unbelievable it made it true the final Hots build
On April 09 2013 06:49 Benjamin99 wrote: Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build mines in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t game and shit loads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream ill like to hear anyone defending the widow mine after that
Hmm... I watched the Flash v Life game and Life ran his army face first into mines and 3-4 mines would only kill about 2-8 lings and nothing else.
On April 09 2013 06:49 Benjamin99 wrote: Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build mines in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t game and shit loads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream ill like to hear anyone defending the widow mine after that
Hmm... I watched the Flash v Life game and Life ran his army face first into mines and 3-4 mines would only kill about 2-8 lings and nothing else.
On April 09 2013 06:52 Addicted2Dreaming wrote: lol you really think stats pertaining to master plays should bear any weight on anything?
Yes. Just like stats of just GM should bear weight. Any league bears weight. Game balance should be approached as a whole. It makes for a bad product if only 800 people in the world out of, oh, I don't know, say a million, can deal with with something. You don't sell many games that way. If LoL/DOTA 2 are any indication, games have to be balanced at all levels.
Widow mines are extremely easy to execute. There's no difference in widow mine execution between a master and a grand master. The only difference is in how well a zerg deals with them.
On April 09 2013 06:49 Benjamin99 wrote: Go watch QXC vs Stephano and see how broken mines are. QXC basically only build mines in early and mid game and raven BC in l8t game and shit loads of mines. 75/25 and beat everything the zerg got.
Its a complete joke. You can watch the match at the Stephano stream ill like to hear anyone defending the widow mine after that
Hmm... I watched the Flash v Life game and Life ran his army face first into mines and 3-4 mines would only kill about 2-8 lings and nothing else.
Sounds like player execution to me.
Hahaha
Its my favorite part of anecdotal evidence Everyone's got a competing one
On April 09 2013 06:52 Addicted2Dreaming wrote: lol you really think stats pertaining to master plays should bear any weight on anything?
you realize masters are the top 2% of the player base? compared to pros most masters players aren't good at all but seen on a global level just being in masters league makes you very good at starcraft. top. two. percent.
On April 09 2013 06:52 Addicted2Dreaming wrote: lol you really think stats pertaining to master plays should bear any weight on anything?
you realize masters are the top 2% of the player base? compared to pros most masters players aren't good at all but seen on a global level just being in masters league makes you very good at starcraft. top. two. percent.
I have to agree. If we want to argue statistics... grandmaster and masters should probably be excluded for being a minority. Of course, no one cares about that fact.
The problem is you are trying to imply causation from an observational study, and you are not accounting for lurking variables. What if better players know they need to make more widow mines, so then they do and they are better so they win. You should randomly assign some different players builds and see there winrates. With an experiment like that, you could in fact imply causation.
EPT
