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On March 21 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. Yeah, well guess what, being a pro gamer is not like being an amateur musicians. My girl friend is a drummer in an amateur band and they don’t do gigs they don’t paid for. Why? Because it costs money for them to travel to the venue, set up, eat and they don’t do that for free. They used to do gigs for free, but stopped because it wasn’t worth their time and they all have full times jobs. They love music and play because they love it, but they don’t spend time and money to do it totally for free. You can accuse her(and her band) of not loving the music enough, but I think you should try doing it to her face and see what response you get. I am sure it will be awesome. The argument that players should just take pay cuts, travel across the world to work 12 hours a day just to have a chance of getting better is naïve and slightly childish. And the fact that those players are on professional teams makes it even more so. Why would you work hard for your employer to make less money? People need good reasons to pay cuts and right now the teams aren’t offering them for Korea. Over time they might and that is likely what Coach Park is going address. And anyone who thinks the Korean player’s aren’t playing for money, don’t care about how much their get paid and are only playing because of passion are being naïve.
i'm not saying they should play for free, what i'm saying is consider how much you're asking (as a player) in return of the work in this field.
korean progamers ge tpaid big, those who made it. for those who havnt made it, you think its ok for them to ask 200k salaries without posting results? and how do you post results; practice hard. what i'm saying is if you want to "make it big" as in make money, you must sacrifice your way to get there. there are those who see it as not worth it and thats totally fine but i'm saying they're not entitled to some payout for their efforts to "go big".
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I agree with him about Medivac Boosters, exactly the philosophy that is missing in SC2. There has to be a drawback to using the boost, it would make the game so much more interesting.
pick one:
- make medivacs unable to unload/load troops when boosted.
- make medivacs unable to heal while boosted (or healing is 50% slower (or some other percentage))
- make them lose some HP for every boosted second (some sort of overheating explanation)
You see how great situations it would cause?
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On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers. Most athletes don't get a degree, and those that do get a degree because college sports is an accepted path to professional sports; the CSL definitely isn't there yet. Also, athletes in the major sports make tons of money - the "Big 4" sports in the US all have minimum contracts above $500k per year, and there are tons of well-paying jobs available afterwards in scouting, TV commentary, etc. Progamers don't make nearly as much, and unless they're lucky enough to land one of the few coach or commentator positions once they retire, they end up with almost no money and no marketable skills once they retire. I agree that in theory it would be great for teams to in some way support their retired players, but the money to do that just isn't there. I have no problem with any pro-gamer trying to make as much money as they can in their short careers, and I do have a problem with people that try to blame them for doing so.
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On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers.
It depends on what you mean by 'pro.' Earlier you said that it used to be reserved for Kespa players who sacrifice everything to hope to one day join a team. Based on what Western players who have trained in Korea have said in interviews, those teamhouses basically have 15 year old kids living there on no salary living as practice slaves who hope to one day get their break and make it onto the proleague team. That's going to be flat-out unacceptable in the West as these players have nothing to fall back on.
I also wouldn't say anything about their choice or not. Adults who don't have much of an interest in this player's future are pressuring a teenage kid into making long-term sacrifices for the opportunity to potentially get better and make it. It's really hard to say that it's their free choice when it's very binary. Everyone in this community seems to praise sacrifice and hard work, but I think many who say this are too young to realize the long-term consequences of these sacrifices. However, the more I hear about kespa gaming houses, the more it sounds like Eastern-bloc Olympic training facilities where winning is placed on a pedestal far above an athlete's future.
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United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:50 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers. It depends on what you mean by 'pro.' Earlier you said that it used to be reserved for Kespa players who sacrifice everything to hope to one day join a team. Based on what Western players who have trained in Korea have said in interviews, those teamhouses basically have 15 year old kids living there on no salary living as practice slaves who hope to one day get their break and make it onto the proleague team. That's going to be flat-out unacceptable in the West as these players have nothing to fall back on. I also wouldn't say anything about their choice or not. Adults who don't have much of an interest in this player's future are pressuring a teenage kid into making long-term sacrifices for the opportunity to potentially get better and make it. It's really hard to say that it's their free choice when it's very binary. Everyone in this community seems to praise sacrifice and hard work, but I think many who say this are too young to realize the long-term consequences of these sacrifices. However, the more I hear about kespa gaming houses, the more it sounds like Eastern-bloc Olympic training facilities where winning is placed on a pedestal far above an athlete's future.
That is a really good analogy to the Korean gaming houses and I hadn’t thought about it that way before. Its not really brought up a lot in the forums, but no one could ever set up a Korean style team house in NA. The number of contract-less, under aged players would be a problem for most child labor laws in most states. The lack of pay for a number of players would also be an issue and it is legally questionable to have someone work for you with the potential of pay at a later date. I know a couple of firms in my state that were called out for “internships” that were just unpaid work, which is highly illegal in this state.
It is an issue that can be overcome, but not with the “practice harder” argument. The issue is more complex than that, though some seem to think it isn’t.
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If anyone can do it, it's Park.
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On March 21 2013 05:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:50 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers. It depends on what you mean by 'pro.' Earlier you said that it used to be reserved for Kespa players who sacrifice everything to hope to one day join a team. Based on what Western players who have trained in Korea have said in interviews, those teamhouses basically have 15 year old kids living there on no salary living as practice slaves who hope to one day get their break and make it onto the proleague team. That's going to be flat-out unacceptable in the West as these players have nothing to fall back on. I also wouldn't say anything about their choice or not. Adults who don't have much of an interest in this player's future are pressuring a teenage kid into making long-term sacrifices for the opportunity to potentially get better and make it. It's really hard to say that it's their free choice when it's very binary. Everyone in this community seems to praise sacrifice and hard work, but I think many who say this are too young to realize the long-term consequences of these sacrifices. However, the more I hear about kespa gaming houses, the more it sounds like Eastern-bloc Olympic training facilities where winning is placed on a pedestal far above an athlete's future. That is a really good analogy to the Korean gaming houses and I hadn’t thought about it that way before. Its not really brought up a lot in the forums, but no one could ever set up a Korean style team house in NA. The number of contract-less, under aged players would be a problem for most child labor laws in most states. The lack of pay for a number of players would also be an issue and it is legally questionable to have someone work for you with the potential of pay at a later date. I know a couple of firms in my state that were called out for “internships” that were just unpaid work, which is highly illegal in this state. It is an issue that can be overcome, but not with the “practice harder” argument. The issue is more complex than that, though some seem to think it isn’t.
if that is the case (slaves), the scene has been around for a decade and its hard to believe some people are just realizing such issues. rather, isnt it because some foreigners aren't willing to go to korea for such harsh work environment with less pay? then say the money isn't worth the efforts. (if they dont think its worth it, thats fine but it feels like they want the cake and eat it too)
child labor laws, unpaid work, etc is a separate topic worth its own thread. kespa practice regime is known for their long hours days, i'm 100% sure these topics have come up. (i'd hope kespa put in standards on how these kids are treated)
i see nothing wrong with kids playing, training for hours on end as prodigy musicians do, kid athletes in all fields, kids training as singer/entertainer, as long as they're treated right. i dont know if esports scene in general is treating their kids right or not, we can speculate i guess.
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United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2013 05:54 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:33 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2013 03:50 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers. It depends on what you mean by 'pro.' Earlier you said that it used to be reserved for Kespa players who sacrifice everything to hope to one day join a team. Based on what Western players who have trained in Korea have said in interviews, those teamhouses basically have 15 year old kids living there on no salary living as practice slaves who hope to one day get their break and make it onto the proleague team. That's going to be flat-out unacceptable in the West as these players have nothing to fall back on. I also wouldn't say anything about their choice or not. Adults who don't have much of an interest in this player's future are pressuring a teenage kid into making long-term sacrifices for the opportunity to potentially get better and make it. It's really hard to say that it's their free choice when it's very binary. Everyone in this community seems to praise sacrifice and hard work, but I think many who say this are too young to realize the long-term consequences of these sacrifices. However, the more I hear about kespa gaming houses, the more it sounds like Eastern-bloc Olympic training facilities where winning is placed on a pedestal far above an athlete's future. That is a really good analogy to the Korean gaming houses and I hadn’t thought about it that way before. Its not really brought up a lot in the forums, but no one could ever set up a Korean style team house in NA. The number of contract-less, under aged players would be a problem for most child labor laws in most states. The lack of pay for a number of players would also be an issue and it is legally questionable to have someone work for you with the potential of pay at a later date. I know a couple of firms in my state that were called out for “internships” that were just unpaid work, which is highly illegal in this state. It is an issue that can be overcome, but not with the “practice harder” argument. The issue is more complex than that, though some seem to think it isn’t. if that is the case (slaves), the scene has been around for a decade and its hard to believe some people are just realizing such issues. rather, isnt it because some foreigners aren't willing to go to korea for such harsh work environment with little pay? then say the money isn't worth the efforts. child labor laws, unpaid work, etc is a separate topic worth its own thread and its something that has been discussed here and there. kespa is known for their 15+ hours days, i'm 100% sure these topics have come up. i see nothing wrong with kids playing, "training" for hours on end as prodigy musicians do, kid athletes in all fields, as long as they're treated right. i dont know if sc2 scene is treating their kids right or not, we can speculate i guess.
The issue of children practicing to much for music and sports is always a topic for discussion in the US and is the subject of some pretty tense debates. Child prodigy musicians do practice for numerous hours, but they don’t “work” for anyone while they do it. They are sent to schools to be educated while they focus on their craft, but the school does not make a profit off of the student’s efforts. Most of the high end music schools are non profits. The Korean team houses are different, because they are a for profit industry that uses the younger, newer players an practice partners for their star players. So the star player and team are gaining be benefits from the unpaid efforts of the younger, newer players that are not paid or paid very little.
Culturally, in North America, the concept of a sponsored, competitive, professional team using poorly paid minors to train their star players would not be acceptable.
Also, the idea that foreign players won’t take a large pay cut to work more hours and live in another country where they speak the language should not be shocking to anyone. If the teams can make it so they don’t lose anything from doing it, then I would say the players should go. But not if they are going to lose 1/3 of their income(in idra’s case)
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On March 21 2013 05:54 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:33 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2013 03:50 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:37 jinorazi wrote:On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.
then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.
double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)
the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.
the scene has become so fucking spoiled. I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime. If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers. So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene. isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool. its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers. It depends on what you mean by 'pro.' Earlier you said that it used to be reserved for Kespa players who sacrifice everything to hope to one day join a team. Based on what Western players who have trained in Korea have said in interviews, those teamhouses basically have 15 year old kids living there on no salary living as practice slaves who hope to one day get their break and make it onto the proleague team. That's going to be flat-out unacceptable in the West as these players have nothing to fall back on. I also wouldn't say anything about their choice or not. Adults who don't have much of an interest in this player's future are pressuring a teenage kid into making long-term sacrifices for the opportunity to potentially get better and make it. It's really hard to say that it's their free choice when it's very binary. Everyone in this community seems to praise sacrifice and hard work, but I think many who say this are too young to realize the long-term consequences of these sacrifices. However, the more I hear about kespa gaming houses, the more it sounds like Eastern-bloc Olympic training facilities where winning is placed on a pedestal far above an athlete's future. That is a really good analogy to the Korean gaming houses and I hadn’t thought about it that way before. Its not really brought up a lot in the forums, but no one could ever set up a Korean style team house in NA. The number of contract-less, under aged players would be a problem for most child labor laws in most states. The lack of pay for a number of players would also be an issue and it is legally questionable to have someone work for you with the potential of pay at a later date. I know a couple of firms in my state that were called out for “internships” that were just unpaid work, which is highly illegal in this state. It is an issue that can be overcome, but not with the “practice harder” argument. The issue is more complex than that, though some seem to think it isn’t. if that is the case (slaves), the scene has been around for a decade and its hard to believe some people are just realizing such issues. rather, isnt it because some foreigners aren't willing to go to korea for such harsh work environment with less pay? then say the money isn't worth the efforts. (if they dont think its worth it, thats fine but it feels like they want the cake and eat it too) child labor laws, unpaid work, etc is a separate topic worth its own thread. kespa practice regime is known for their long hours days, i'm 100% sure these topics have come up. (i'd hope kespa put in standards on how these kids are treated) i see nothing wrong with kids playing, training for hours on end as prodigy musicians do, kid athletes in all fields, kids training as singer/entertainer, as long as they're treated right. i dont know if esports scene in general is treating their kids right or not, we can speculate i guess.
While it has been around for a decade, it's really hard to find out about these things as a more mainstream Westerner. The language barrier is a very big deal, and Kespa hasn't actually cared about a foreign audience before SC2. Even now, they only started producing English content a few months ago. Our only glimpse into this world is through interviews with Western gamers who have lived it first hand-- most recently I'm referring to Huk's interview from MLG.
I have to agree that I wouldn't have problems with kids playing for hours and hours on end with one caveat: if they were independent of a team. If an independent gamer wanted to ladder for 10 hours a day, more power to him or her. Go show up to code A qualifiers and make it in. However, there is a big difference between independent play and guided at the hands of a coach. In actual sports, state-level high school athletic associations and the NCAA have strict rules which govern how long people are allowed to train because these associations have an explicit goal of furthering the advancement of the individual athlete. Kespa is different because their main goal is to make money and generate brand exposure for their sponsors.
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So yeah, i don't have a lot of faith considering hes already not having success in the things hes implementing. Jaedongs still streaming at 1pm..
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Thanks for sharing, great interview!
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Park sounds super organized. No doubt he knows how to win. The question is whether the team members will buy into what is required to win at the highest levels. One wonders about a clash of cultures, on the one hand a culture of training to be truly great and on the other the western culture. Hopefully it goes really well. Great experiment anyway.
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i think JD's streaming by far more than 2 hours now ~~
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ya the entire team is ignoring his streaming rule..
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Well, that was unexpected...
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you guys ever think, that since proleague is on a break right now, the schedule might not have been implemented yet?
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On March 22 2013 15:00 jmbthirteen wrote:
you guys ever think, that since proleague is on a break right now, the schedule might not have been implemented yet?
Doesn't make sense to me for Park to waste weeks of potential time on an improved schedule.
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I don't think that he's started in his role as coach yet.
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On March 21 2013 03:46 niteReloaded wrote:
I agree with him about Medivac Boosters, exactly the philosophy that is missing in SC2. There has to be a drawback to using the boost, it would make the game so much more interesting.
pick one:
- make medivacs unable to unload/load troops when boosted.
- make medivacs unable to heal while boosted (or healing is 50% slower (or some other percentage))
- make them lose some HP for every boosted second (some sort of overheating explanation)
You see how great situations it would cause?
I would much rather see a design change in medivac to a point which they cannot load up the ground crew so fast. The unloading is fine in the way that troops are deployed from the medivac one by one, but the problem seems to be that Terran can use the Medivac boost to pick up all of their ground crew instantly and get away with it. Make it so that medivacs can't load up everything instantly.
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EPT
