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Coach Park: EG-TL needs a miracle. We will make it - Page 10

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Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 20 2013 17:13 GMT
#181
On March 21 2013 02:05 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:
stream time sucks. but this is great for EGTL


Yeah, and since being a professional player is pretty much a job, I can see why someone wouldn't want to take a pay cut. I mean, if someone told me "If you go to Korea and train for 12 hours a day to become the most badass paralegal ever, but your pay will be cut to 2/3 and you still need to do the work you did previously to get that, plus pratice. By the way, the enviorment is there is also pretty crappy to practice in," I would tell them to come back with a better deal that made sense for me in any way.

It is up to the team to make practicing in Korean attractive to players. You can't expect people to take pay cuts and worker harder just for the potential of getting better.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nightsz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada398 Posts
March 20 2013 17:16 GMT
#182
Sad thing is that Coach Park is making a huge effort to try to motivate these players to get on the same level as the Kespa pros, but people like idra don't want to move to Korea and make an effort to compete professionally. They are pretty much telling coach park to "fuck himself."

God, EG seriously needs to reconsider their line-up, so far only Jaedong is making an effort to improve himself for competitive play.

bsdaemon
Profile Joined July 2012
618 Posts
March 20 2013 17:24 GMT
#183
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 20 2013 04:52 opterown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 04:44 larse wrote:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1akrd3/long_interview_of_egtl_head_coach_park_in_korean/c8yk6cq

Someone translated the whole interview.

Q: Coach Park! It’s been a while. I would first like to hear exactly when you entered EG-TL.
A: Hello, it has been a while hasn’t it? It’s a pleasure. I am the new head coach of EG-TL, Park Yong Woon.
Actually, it’s only been about 10 days since the decision was made. Serious negotiations only started about 3 weeks ago. I spoke with the head and CEO Alex quite often and after the decision was made, much preparation was had. I thought it would be detrimental if I were to just go headlong into it, so I took the time to think about where I could bring about the most change.
I especially thought about whether or not I could bring results. You could say I took the time to calculate everything? I received help in many ways from many people and made my decision. Alex really seems to believe in me, so I’m already eager to go to work.

Q: You were an advisor for SK Telecom T1 until you became head coach for EG-TL. What kind of processes did you have to go through?
A: SK actually helped me a lot. To be exact, President Oh Kyung Shik helped me quite a bit. Recently I felt I needed to learn English, so I went to Philippines to do so. After that I was supposed to focus on the SK Telecom T1 League of Legends team.
But because the field I was about to enter was so different from the field I have been working in, it bothered me. You know how people have their ambition, so I had thoughts that my past experiences would be somewhat wasted. So when I voiced these sentiments, he helped me and in turn, I think the results turned out wonderfully.

Q: You probably had a world of opportunity in front of you, but why did you choose EG-TL?
A: I’ve always wanted to coach a foreign team, even when I was at SK Telecom T1. So in preparation, I even hired tutors to verse myself in English. You know how I became an advisor, correct? To be honest, I wasn’t too happy with it. Only for an instant of course (laughs). So when this path opened up for me I thought, “This must be a heaven-sent opportunity.”
Immediately after, I went to the Philippines to improve my English and even started working out to prepare. I took a little time off and it was very rewarding. During the process, I also came up with a lot of ideas. So when I was looking around for a foreign team and found EG-TL, I decided to take this opportunity to use my experiences.

Q: Even on the SK Planet Proleague Media Day (don’t ask, I have no idea) people thought EG-TL as a strong contender. But to be straight, they did not live up to the hype. Why do you think this is so?
A: I would first like to say that their record seems appropriate. You don’t think so? I researched/investigated the team for 10 days or so and I concluded that this was the only possible outcome.
The problem has nothing to do with the players themselves, but the infrastructure of the team itself. They have a poor environment compared to those of other teams. They cannot focus solely on Proleague, they have to travel to foreign tournaments, they have mandatory streaming obligations, as well as a lacking coaching staff, making it difficult to organize the team well. There are foreign players, and there are too many players to make practice smoothly (not 100% on this translation). Coach Kim Sung Hwan (Hwanni) must have been very frustrated.
Although the players have much value to their names, because of these factors the current results were inevitable.

Q: Now that you know the problem, how will you go about fixing it? What changes will you bring?
A: Hmm…I’m still giving a lot of thought to it. Truthfully, I am not sure yet. But one thing is sure: it is impossible to completely fix the problem. I am approaching with the goal of minimizing all harmful factors.
For example, I’ve been thinking about how to solve the streaming problem for 2 days. There is the danger of showing their full strength to the public, but if they do not their salaries are cut and must give up a portion of their winnings so…I’m still thinking about it.
I’ve actually changed the streaming schedule a bit. Before it seemed as though the players were streaming whenever they had free time, but now I have them all stream at the same time. I also changed it so that they stream in the morning. This way the streams will be more accessible to the foreign fans. The response has been great.
The players used to stream into the night, resulting in insufficient rest and poor condition the next morning. This was a big problem. Having them stream in the morning is beneficial in many ways. First, it is a way to warm up their fingers. Second, it’s a good way to fill their stream requirements. Third, their full strength will not be shown. Though there probably will be fans who will wake up early to watch as well (laughs).
Fans would have to wait for stream announcements to watch the players, essentially being in the dark. But now that they all have a fixed schedule, viewers can simply wait for the streams to start at a certain time. This will increase viewership, increase player income, and provide a little fun for the players streaming together. One by one, I am approaching this problem step by step.

Q: Since this is a foreign team, there are occasions where you are unable to use key players due to foreign tournaments. It’s something that you’re not used to, what do you think of it?
A: You’re right, there will be times where we won’t be at full strength and forced to change up our rotation. It seems a bit unfair seeing how no other team has this problem (laughs), but I think there is some charm to this. The same way I am trying to improve the streaming schedule, I feel I can turn this into something great as well. This attracts me very much. It kind of feels like solving a homework problem? It’s definitely a challenge.

Q: What do think is most important when running a team?
A: Coming to EG-TL the thing that worried me the most was how to schedule their days, especially since there would be Koreans and foreigners under the same roof. It worried me a lot. But as I met and talked with the players, I found I could apply my past experiences here as well. There was nothing different. I had no need to worry because they were all still gamers with the pro mentality.
What I think is most important is their daily life. One’s individual rhythm is incredibly important. No matter how hard you practice, if you practice until 4 or 5 in the morning and feel dead tired the next morning or sleep in, I think that is a sign of a bad gamer. If you are a pro, you should know how to control yourself. You must learn to stop and recover when needed. I will not allow any action that destroys one’s rhythm.
Currently, I am making the players go to bed and wake up early. They are chastised if they are caught up after 2am (laughs). I am also teaching them the habit to self-check their daily life. How long they slept, how much they practice is all being checked. This is all pro mentality in my opinion. You do not just sleep to sleep or practice to practice. You must know just how much sleep you need to be 100%. To know oneself, that is what a pro is. (I love this quote btw.) I am working to teach them this mentality.

Q: What do you think is the reason for the lack of results?
A: It is as many have already guessed. They don’t hold Proleague preparation as their top priority. Their potential is enormous. You can’t blame them for this either as their environment is different.
A pro’s worth is measured by their earnings and whatnot, so teams have geared their players towards focusing on Proleague. Starting with incentives to raises for Proleague standards. But our team gains more from winning outside tournaments. It’s hard to raise a team camaraderie. To make this a team a true team is my role.

Q: What do you think is EG-TL’s biggest problem right now?
A: We need Terrans (laughs). We really don’t have any Terrans. Other than Yoon Young Suh (Taeja) we don’t have anyone. Terran looks very strong in Heart of the Swarm, so the problem is even bigger. I am still thinking of how to solve this.

Q: Do you think you’ll have a hard time leading such a nationally diverse team?
A: I won’t be able to communicate effectively with them. The language barrier is obvious. Other than that I don’t think we will have any major problems. I get along with foreigners pretty well. I look forward to befriending ‘ThorZaIN’ Marcus Eklof and ‘Stephano’ Ilyes Satouri and many others.

Q: The most important question! I would like to ask of your English skills? How was your time in the Philippines?
A: You can’t be perfect, you know? (laughs) What I learned in the Philippines was to speak with confidence. Every word with confidence. It helped a lot. But my grammar is still a bit shaky, so I’ve already gone through four grammar textbooks. I think I’ve improved a bit (laughs).
I’m still much better than when I used to be. There won’t be any big translation issues, but I’m still worried (laughs). But I will have Coach Kim Sung Hwan (Hwanni) close by so I will try to learn much from him.

Q: When you were officially taken in, what did the team head say?
A: The first thing I remember was, “Great!” Then it was, “Impressed!” It was a great response (laughs).
What I am most grateful to Alex is his trust in me. Jokingly I said to him, “Even if you can’t trust your family, you can trust me. You have to gamble your trust in me.” He continued to give me his full trust. No matter what I would suggest, he would take it. He makes my work worthwhile.
When I first spoke to Alex, I sent him my entire analysis of EG and improvement plans. He was very surprised about that. Outside of Korea, Head coach is regarded similar to a team manager. He said that he did not expect me to think about the team this much, and since then, whatever I say, he gives me his full trust. Of course, I will repay his trust with results.

Q: How have you divided the coaching staff’s roles?
A: Coach Park Sung Jin and I will take care of the team, as usual. He will essentially be my assistant. Coach Kim Sung Hwan will be general coach, dealing with foreign players or working with me in communications to discuss the growth of this team in the right direction. This way I can direct my full attention to coaching the team.

Q: The 4th round of Proleague isn’t far off, what are your thoughts on Heart of the Swarm?
A: I haven’t been able to play a lot. It’s my first time after the closed beta. I have discussed with the players and Terran seems to be very strong. That is why I am worried, as there are too few Terrans on the team.
But I do have an issue with the Ignite Thrusters (laughs). I used to think it would be fun to put boosters on Brood War Dropships but this is real. But the boosters in HotS are a little different than what I imagined. They should use energy, or become more vulnerable when using them, something like that. There has to be a risk, but there are none, so it’s no fun when players can infinitely use them.
To make the game more enjoyable, there has to be some escape to that, but there are none, which is disappointing. Maybe if there was something like Scourge, but as of now it’s a bit lacking. They can definitely make it more exciting. Other than that, it’s a very fun game. It’s better than ‘Wings of Liberty.” But looking at player’s responses, I think they are correct in calling it “Terrancraft.” (laughs)

Q: What is EG-TL’s goal for the second half of the season?
A: Well, we have to recover. We have a big goal. Looking at the numbers though, it may be impossible (laughs).
EG-TL’s goal is to enter the playoffs. Though through calculations, it is a very impossible number. To enter the playoffs, EG-TL must win 14 of their next 21 games. We have to play like the 1st place Woongjin Stars to have a place in the playoffs.
To be honest, it is a very hard goal. But after talking with the players, and with Alex as well, the consensus I hear is, “We can still do it.” Though it will be a difficult path, I believe it will be the time of my life. But I do hope that luck and miracles help us (laughs).

Q: You have been labeled as a legend due to your ability. What do you think your chances are in reaching the post-season as you did last year?
A: I am here because I believe it is possible. If EG-TL doesn’t make the playoffs, it will be disappointing to break my streak (laughs), but to continue my ambition, I accept this challenge. I’ve always loved challenges. If everything was laid out for me, where’s the fun in that? I will give it my all.

Q: Before we go, say something to the fans!
A: Firstly, to both the Korean and foreign fans. To the Korean fans I ask you to embrace our players. They are having a hard time. Embrace them, cheer for them, and we will work towards the playoffs. We need momentum. If not, I don’t think we will be able to, so cheer for us!
To the foreign fans I would like to voice my thinks. When the announcement was made on EG’s front page, I read many of the comments. I never imagined the amount of support you gave me. Thank you so much. It was very moving. I will return the favor, I will not forget your support. I will do my best.
Lastly, I would like to address the two geniuses of EG. Alex! I want to tell you that your voice is really great. Thanks you so much. I believe we will be very good partners. I heard the team coordinator Cody is getting married soon. Congratulations! I hope to continue to inform you of what is going on. Please cheer for us!



Based on the interview, it seems Coach Park is really very interested taking on the challenge of improving EG-TL. I am surprised that he have already noted key points of the team like it is a mixed nationality team, the stream/contract obligations, improving the team's practice structure plus he already have a set goal which is high but realistic. I am truly impressed and I hope that EG-TL improve not only in ranking but also the players themselves.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 17:28:11
March 20 2013 17:26 GMT
#184
On March 21 2013 02:16 Nightsz wrote:
Sad thing is that Coach Park is making a huge effort to try to motivate these players to get on the same level as the Kespa pros, but people like idra don't want to move to Korea and make an effort to compete professionally. They are pretty much telling coach park to "fuck himself."

God, EG seriously needs to reconsider their line-up, so far only Jaedong is making an effort to improve himself for competitive play.



Why would anyone take a pay cut to live to move across the world and live in a forgien country where they don't speak the language only to pratice 12 hours a day for the potential of getting better? Since these players are trying to make a living, why would they make less money?

Its not greed causing the problem. Pay cuts are serious issues and I would never take one, no matter how much better the job I was going to was. It is up to the teams and coaches to make it worth the player's time to go to Korea. You can't force them unless you want lack luster results(no one works well when they are forced to do so). It is good for the players, but only if they don't give up to much by moving to Korea.

I think Coach Park understands the issues at hand and is working hard to address them. If anything, I think he likes the challenge of making an amazing team while also making sure the team's stay viable to run.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
March 20 2013 17:30 GMT
#185
when is the new pro league round 4 going to start? I'm looking forward to the new and improved JD
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 17:30:48
March 20 2013 17:30 GMT
#186
On March 21 2013 02:26 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 02:16 Nightsz wrote:
Sad thing is that Coach Park is making a huge effort to try to motivate these players to get on the same level as the Kespa pros, but people like idra don't want to move to Korea and make an effort to compete professionally. They are pretty much telling coach park to "fuck himself."

God, EG seriously needs to reconsider their line-up, so far only Jaedong is making an effort to improve himself for competitive play.



Why would anyone take a pay cut to live to move across the world and live in a forgien country where they don't speak the language only to pratice 12 hours a day for the potential of getting better? Since these players are trying to make a living, why would they make less money?

Its not greed causing the problem. Pay cuts are serious issues and I would never take one, no matter how much better the job I was going to was. It is up to the teams and coaches to make it worth the player's time to go to Korea. You can't force them unless you want lack luster results(no one works well when they are forced to do so). It is good for the players, but only if they don't give up to much by moving to Korea.
i maybe would take a pay cut, dependent of the situation..

But otherwise agree, it's a very serious issue when a company's goals are different from personal goals of employees as written in their contracts. I really hope it's solved without too much trouble.
Branman
Profile Joined March 2013
United States203 Posts
March 20 2013 17:31 GMT
#187
On March 21 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.


It is the problem of supporting a team in NA or EU. Kespa teams are heavly sponsored, they can take public transportation to the studio for Proleague and other Korean leagues, and so on. They can focus more on practicing because they have less overhead and no start up costs. If all Esports in NA took place in one city, things would be a lot cheaper for the teams.


Kespa players will also make far less money. Negotiating a salary with a 14,15,16 year old kid who doesn't know anything about the international e-sports scene will be far different from negotiating a salary with Idra, Stephano, Huk, or Thorzain.
IronL
Profile Joined January 2012
United States34 Posts
March 20 2013 17:37 GMT
#188
Again,....

http://evilgeniuses.net/eg-liquid-names-coach-park-as-new-head-coach/

"To address this issue, we will be doing several things. First, we’ll be increasing our infrastructure budget operation-wide, which includes everything from our team house itself, to our ground transportation, to our player support – we’re going to allocate more resources and improve the entire operation, in every way we can, so that our players can minimize their distractions and put additional focus on their play in a more organized, structured environment. And secondly (and just as, if not more importantly), we’re going to make a big addition to our coaching staff by hiring a new Head Coach whom you’re all probably quite familiar with."

EG realizes that heavy streaming and high end results don't mix, this quote would strongly indicate that they are going to lighten the streaming burdens for their players in Korea in addition to the many things they are doing to commit heavily to proleague and korea in general (coach park, improving team house etc)
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
March 20 2013 17:38 GMT
#189
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


Hmm, I'm not really talking about the same thing. What Idra is talking about is if he can only stream for 2 hours compared to say 5 hours or more, then he loses out on lost ad revenue from those missing hours. Idra wants to stream and lots for the ad revenue.

I'm talking about player x has a quota of X hours of streaming for the month he has to hit. If he doesn't hit that quota mark he's fined/salary is withheld until he does. Therefore, this is not the case of a person worried about missing out on lost ad revenue from streaming, but the case of them losing out on their actual salary for missing their stream quota. Now for someone who loves streaming anyways, hitting their quota will never be an issue for them, but will be for players who don't like streaming as much.

The fact that players need to stream on EG is public knowledge and common sense, but penalties being levied against players for missing stream quotas seemed more on the down low to me. Maybe I'm wrong and everyone knew that too and could be since I think I read someone say that on reddit a while ago.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Scorch
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Austria3371 Posts
March 20 2013 17:41 GMT
#190
The Taeja/Stephano/HerO trio used to be the strongest core in Proleague by far, with a solid support cast of JYP, Revival, Jaedong and Thorzain. EG-TL should have won the first rounds in convinving fashion, but didn't due to various factors, some of which Coach Park might have solved. Now that Kespa teams have caught up skillwise and still have superior infrastructure and undivided attention, it's probably too late for EG-TL to be successful.
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
March 20 2013 17:43 GMT
#191
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.

while it's unfortunate for fans, can you really blame them? they get to play a video game they like for a living, might as well make as much money as possible while it lasts. if i ever wanted to become a progamer, that's what i would be thinking. it's not a career.
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
March 20 2013 17:45 GMT
#192
On March 21 2013 02:43 Schelim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.

while it's unfortunate for fans, can you really blame them? they get to play a video game they like for a living, might as well make as much money as possible while it lasts. if i ever wanted to become a progamer, that's what i would be thinking. it's not a career.

That is great but why join something as big as Proleague then to get utterly destroyed? I mean they should at least have discussed something with the players right?
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 17:47:42
March 20 2013 17:47 GMT
#193
On March 21 2013 02:43 Schelim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.

while it's unfortunate for fans, can you really blame them? they get to play a video game they like for a living, might as well make as much money as possible while it lasts. if i ever wanted to become a progamer, that's what i would be thinking. it's not a career.


Yeah, it's hard to blame them. In korea, you need to win to make money. In the west you need to be popular to make money. Winning is very hard and not guaranteed, so any money earned from winning for foreigners is just bonus money on top of their salary/stream income.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 20 2013 17:51 GMT
#194
On March 21 2013 02:45 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 02:43 Schelim wrote:
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.

while it's unfortunate for fans, can you really blame them? they get to play a video game they like for a living, might as well make as much money as possible while it lasts. if i ever wanted to become a progamer, that's what i would be thinking. it's not a career.

That is great but why join something as big as Proleague then to get utterly destroyed? I mean they should at least have discussed something with the players right?


That is the teams problem, not the players. If they want to do well in Pro-league, they need to make it worth the players time and effort. My boss can’t make me work overtime without pay or travel without giving me money for gas, doesn’t matter how good I would get at my job. If the player is going to lose money by going to Korean, the team needs to make up for the difference to make it worth the players time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
March 20 2013 17:58 GMT
#195
On March 21 2013 02:51 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 02:45 Assirra wrote:
On March 21 2013 02:43 Schelim wrote:
On March 21 2013 01:43 vesicular wrote:
On March 20 2013 20:28 StarVe wrote:
On March 20 2013 18:05 Canucklehead wrote:
I'm surprised he was so candid about their streaming obligations going so far as to say players get fined/salary withheld if they don't meet their streaming quota.

It's not that surprising, IdrA just said yesterday on Inside the Game that his contract is heavily based on streaming, if he went to Korea and could only stream for as long as Coach Park allows, he'd make maybe 2/3 of the salary he does now.

They're pretty open about it, and I guess everyone pretty much knew or guessed that anyway.


This is the main problem with them (and many foreign teams), salary over results.

while it's unfortunate for fans, can you really blame them? they get to play a video game they like for a living, might as well make as much money as possible while it lasts. if i ever wanted to become a progamer, that's what i would be thinking. it's not a career.

That is great but why join something as big as Proleague then to get utterly destroyed? I mean they should at least have discussed something with the players right?


That is the teams problem, not the players. If they want to do well in Pro-league, they need to make it worth the players time and effort. My boss can’t make me work overtime without pay or travel without giving me money for gas, doesn’t matter how good I would get at my job. If the player is going to lose money by going to Korean, the team needs to make up for the difference to make it worth the players time.

yeah, this pretty much. i doubt the foreign EG-TL players told their management it is their biggest dream to play in Proleague, maybe not even some of the Koreans. it's more likely the team(s) said you're gonna play in this now or we'll cut your salary/not renew your contract or something like that and the players complied. i guess they don't even have to say anything like that, it's implicit anyways.
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 18:07:21
March 20 2013 18:03 GMT
#196
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.

then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.

double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)

the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.

the scene has become so fucking spoiled.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Eschaton
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1245 Posts
March 20 2013 18:07 GMT
#197
On March 16 2013 10:52 KimJongChill wrote:
Maybe merging with IM??


I read that more as they are getting a player from IM xD

They could really use a terran right?

EG-MVP!!
Branman
Profile Joined March 2013
United States203 Posts
March 20 2013 18:29 GMT
#198
On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.

then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.

double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)

the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.

the scene has become so fucking spoiled.


I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime.

If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers.

So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 21:07:04
March 20 2013 18:37 GMT
#199
On March 21 2013 03:29 Branman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.

then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.

double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)

the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.

the scene has become so fucking spoiled.


I think it's a really bad comparison with amateur musicians. If a musician works all of his or her life and doesn't make it, there are numerous fall-back opportunities. They can teach music at a primary school level. They can give individual lessons. They can also find small playing gigs throughout their lifetime.

If you don't make it as a programer, then you're pretty much washed up. Instead of going to school (and this includes secondary for 15 year old Kespa players who play for 12 hours a day) to gain marketable skills, you spent your youth playing video games. There is no market for retired programers outside of casting, and there are fewer slots for casters than there are for active progamers.

So what we're seeing right now is incredibly interesting-- we're slowly seeing the definition of what is a Western progamer. This will be completely different from what Koreans see as progamers because Western progamers are almost uniformly older than their Korean counterparts. Success will ultimately be based on a balance of marketability and skill. Sponsors pay the bills and salaries, and they don't care how good a player is, they just care about how those players represent their brand and increase brand recognition. Look at all of the Western teams which just cut a whole bunch of Koreans while maintaining their Western core. After all, the most important thing is finding a sustainable business model which can support a healthy international scene.


isn't that how it is with athletes? they still go to college, get a degree so they can fall back on. some prefer to skip it and go pro after highschool (like in NBA). its their choice as it should be with progamers too. some progamers are students also and the progaming team should set up a program to insure their player's future if they already have not. the esports scene has created plenty of jobs for retired progamers.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 20 2013 18:37 GMT
#200
On March 21 2013 03:03 jinorazi wrote:
i always thought progaming is still like amateur musicians. you love what you do, you do it even if means little pay, you do it because you dream of going big, and to go big you sacrifice a lot for the opportunities.

then people are saying "give me good environment then i'll think about it", "paycut? no thanks".
to train in korea means you want to be the best, if you want your easy money gtfo and stay an amateur.

double standards i think, some people think the market is like an actual sport. everyone has to sacrifice a little to make this esports happen, people have no idea how small this market is. its bigger than before, but its no mainstream (korea is the closest thing)

the term "pro" was mostly related with Kespa players for me because of how hard it was to get in, how much work and sacrifice it required. now everyone thinks whoever can win a tournament or stream with big numbers are pros.

the scene has become so fucking spoiled.


Yeah, well guess what, being a pro gamer is not like being an amateur musicians. My girl friend is a drummer in an amateur band and they don’t do gigs they don’t paid for. Why? Because it costs money for them to travel to the venue, set up, eat and they don’t do that for free. They used to do gigs for free, but stopped because it wasn’t worth their time and they all have full times jobs. They love music and play because they love it, but they don’t spend time and money to do it totally for free. You can accuse her(and her band) of not loving the music enough, but I think you should try doing it to her face and see what response you get. I am sure it will be awesome.

The argument that players should just take pay cuts, travel across the world to work 12 hours a day just to have a chance of getting better is naïve and slightly childish. And the fact that those players are on professional teams makes it even more so. Why would you work hard for your employer to make less money? People need good reasons to pay cuts and right now the teams aren’t offering them for Korea. Over time they might and that is likely what Coach Park is going address.

And anyone who thinks the Korean player’s aren’t playing for money, don’t care about how much their get paid and are only playing because of passion are being naïve.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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