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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
On March 23 2013 11:38 Josealtron wrote: ..if you read the novel Flashpoint.. ..explained in Flashpoint.. I dont really think making sense of a self contained game story should be reliant on an external novel. That just seems like lazy writing | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
so yeah, novels are important shit ^^ | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On March 24 2013 00:23 TheMooseHeed wrote: I dont really think making sense of a self contained game story should be reliant on an external novel. That just seems like lazy writing theres only so much lore you can put into a game | ||
Sherlock-Canada
Canada269 Posts
On March 24 2013 00:37 Iplaythings wrote: Well one thing that isn't too farfatched is the love between the 2 of them which was descriped in the novel "Speed of Darkness" which is a journalist following Raynor through the vanilla terran campaign so yeah, novels are important shit ^^ The book you described there is 'Liberty's Crusade'. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On March 23 2013 12:05 Thieving Magpie wrote: What David Kim is saying is that you can't say something is too hard if you haven't beaten it yet. That's like saying that the pizza tastes awful without ever having tasted it. Its a valid argument--you can't really ever say something is too easy and have the majority never completed it. There are many "valid" and "possible" excuses to bring up to try to shut up David Kim's argument--but it still does not refute his initial statement that you can't call something too easy if most people have not even beaten it. I'm not saying I agree with him--I know that after about a few missions I realized that there was no point to feel challenged since the narrative was so un-engaging that there was no real reason for me to fully experience the game. I switched to easy mode just to finish the game as fast as possible. Do I "know" if Brutal is too easy or not--no idea. I have a feeling it might be easier than Blizzard hoped it would be, but like most others I did not find the story engaging enough to find out. Which means I can say that the story bored me--but I can't really say that the game was too easy for me. Except Brutal is the hardest difficulty which means it is the goto difficulty for completionists and hardcore gamers. Only they find out that Brutal doesn't cater to them. So when a vocal minority says that the missions are too easy and maybe justify their greivance by saying maybe that "the scripted nature makes the missions predictable or the AI is too lenient or the macro aspect needs work then blizzard should listen rather than say make a fallacious statement about how the majority didn't "complete it on brutal." The difficulty is not for them. They wouldn't even pay it any heed when booting up the game even. Its like the hot sauce or spice difficulty. Some people just avoid spice altogether whole a silent minority chows down and loads up on it. Just take this statistic: http://kotaku.com/5832450/nine-out-of-10-will-not-finish-the-game-they-are-playing Nine out of ten will not even finish the game they are playing. So you can tell the guy to stop spouting what the majority does when the difficulty designed for a MINORITY of gamers does not work as intended. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
-) the campaign was too short -) I'm with the OP that it just doesn't make any sense that Kerrigan is the Queen of Blades again after WoL. I mean, seriously. In Wings you fight through something like 35missions to find that superpowerful Artifact. And make Kerrigan Human again. 5 missions into HotS: "this sucks... let's infest her again" And then you have all those uninteresting characters... random zerg beings. Only Za'gara shows some depth - but she doesn't take her chance(s) to overthrow Kerrigan and instead just bows to her, over and over again... -) The unit evolutions and strains as well as Kerrigans abilities are basically all irrelevant. -) Brutal is much too easy. Maybe that's just my thinking. But when I do an easy, medium, hard, brutal setup, they should mean: easy - everybody can do that. You get a story and you are allowed to click around units. medium - there might be one or two scenes per mission that require some attention. hard - you chose hard. Make use of that safe/load options because you won't beat every mission on the first try. brutal - you are not intended to beat this unless you already know the mission. Beating this difficulty means that you have to learn each and every trigger in that mission and use as many gimmicks as possible. And you really must choose Kerrigans abilities accordingly! I only played on brutal. It was like: "Hm, I guess I screwed this attack up. Nevermind, just send another attack. Oh, a surprise assault on my base, I guess I'm fucked. Oh wait, cleaned the mess up, rebuilt and just continue playing. Savegame? Never heard of it". There were only like three missions that required me to load or restart... I could go on... Well, I've played worse. And I'm not of the opinion that SC1/BW stories were "sooo much better". But I expected much more after how Wings ended. And after those Protoss missions in Wings. I mean... Who the fuck is Amon? I don't give a damn about somebody that isn't there. Somebody who is not a main character in a single mission. Also... I dislike stories in which each and every hero survives. The story would have been much cooler if Kerrigan would have redeemed herself in the endscene and the swarm would go over to Za'gara. Or if Raynor really had died. Or been infested by Narud/Eamon. The story doesn't deliver memorable scenes. And even more, unmakes the memorable actions from WoL. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
In Wings you fight through something like 35missions to find that superpowerful Artifact. And make Kerrigan Human again. 5 missions into HotS: "this sucks... let's infest her again" just because she looks Zerg doesnt mean shes not human, the queen of blades would never let those shuttles go or land her invasion outside the city, or avoid civilian districts | ||
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lotny
Poland154 Posts
On March 24 2013 00:44 Forikorder wrote: theres only so much lore you can put into a game That's why games and movies use expository dialogue, to fill in everybody on what is going on and what they missed. It's not the prettiest method of going about it, but it's better than not giving us any information in the game at all. Books are great at providing us with backstories of characters, describing events from a different point (liberty's crucade), but they should not fully replace the game at telling the story. | ||
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baba44713
83 Posts
What is sad though is... 90's Blizzard would actually make this happen. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 24 2013 01:37 Forikorder wrote: just because she looks Zerg doesnt mean shes not human, the queen of blades would never let those shuttles go or land her invasion outside the city, or avoid civilian districts 35wings missions and the first 5hots missions to get an anecdote about Kerrigan not killing civilians and an endscene in which she admits that she actually loves Raynor... Sorry, but that's just a waste of time. I think WoL had a good story on it's own. And HotS had a decent story on its own. But they are connected. And the one counteracts the other. It's stupid, because we are nearly at status quo, just with a less evil Kerrigan and a different Mengsk on the Dominion throne. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On March 24 2013 01:58 baba44713 wrote: In my book, the only thing that could have saved HotS was if Kerrigan killed Raynor and sided with Mengsk in the end, What is sad though is... 90's Blizzard would actually make this happen. no way in hell all the character motivation in HoTS is directly taken from vanilla and BW | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 24 2013 01:58 baba44713 wrote: In my book, the only thing that could have saved HotS was if Kerrigan killed Raynor and sided with Mengsk in the end, What is sad though is... 90's Blizzard would actually make this happen. Yea, Kerrigan will side with the person who betrayed her and put her into a living hell and kills the person who saved her. You are out of your mind if even the 90's Blizzard would do that. It makes zero sense. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On March 24 2013 02:01 Big J wrote: 35wings missions and the first 5hots missions to get an anecdote about Kerrigan not killing civilians and an endscene in which she admits that she actually loves Raynor... Sorry, but that's just a waste of time. I think WoL had a good story on it's own. And HotS had a decent story on its own. But they are connected. And the one counteracts the other. It's stupid, because we are nearly at status quo, just with a less evil Kerrigan and a different Mengsk on the Dominion throne. Two single player campaigns and Kerrigan is still infested and there is still a Mengsk on the throne. I don't know why, but I find that Blizzard's RTS campaigns are really short always. WoW had an expansion every two years and to play through all the leveling content (not including endgame stuff, so I'm still missing out on a lot) would take me at least a week, and then I wanted to replay it on my other characters because it was so enjoyable. I finished the HotS campaign in two days of casual playing, half of the time barely paying attention to the game, and I'm doubtful if I'll ever play it again. I think even WoL had a longer campaign, but that might just be my perception due to the higher difficulty. I suspect future generations will buy the SC2 Trilogy and find it a perfectly adequate RTS experience though. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
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DaveVAH
Canada162 Posts
On March 22 2013 22:58 McBengt wrote: The thing is, I, and many others judgning by this thread, disagree with you. We do in fact think the story was bad. And here we are trying to explain why and how. That is the purpose of a forum. If you have another opinion that's fine, but just because you said the story was good enough for you does not make it true for others. There are a myriad options for how to improve the storytelling without having gameplay suffer, and blizzard with some of the best designers in the world can certainly make it happen. The current plot arch and hollow story is intentional, and we think that is a bad thing. Looking at the poll even in this TL thread (A very elitist place) a majority (54%) thought the story was better than wol or stellar. Your opinion of the story being horrible is at the bottom 7%. You lose pal. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On March 24 2013 04:59 DaveVAH wrote: Looking at the poll even in this TL thread (A very elitist place) a majority (54%) thought the story was better than wol or stellar. Your opinion of the story being horrible is at the bottom 7%. You lose pal. Only 49% of Americans think that Barack Obama is a Christian, so I guess he must be lying. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/obama-muslim_n_1706522.html In other news: polling random people for opinions yields accurate and informed results. | ||
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McBengt
Sweden1684 Posts
On March 24 2013 04:59 DaveVAH wrote: Looking at the poll even in this TL thread (A very elitist place) a majority (54%) thought the story was better than wol or stellar. Your opinion of the story being horrible is at the bottom 20%. You lose pal. So 20% of the playerbase is an insignificant portion now? And what does matter if it was 1%? We are unhappy with the quality of the product. We are expressing and attempting to rationalize this opinion on a forum about this game. Your condescending and juvenile contrarian attitude is becoming tiresome. Please learn some manners and then come back. Edit: Your numbers are also way off, 23% found it terrible, and 23% either found it to be meh or even worse than terrible. | ||
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Josealtron
United States219 Posts
On March 24 2013 00:23 TheMooseHeed wrote: I dont really think making sense of a self contained game story should be reliant on an external novel. That just seems like lazy writing Except it isn't a self contained story. It's a continuation of the overall Starcraft story, of which Flashpoint is a part of. That would be like if the game had to explain who Jim Raynor or Mengsk was. And the story is definitely not reliant on the novel, the novel just helps you understand more about it. The story works fine without having read the novel, and as was mentioned earlier, there's only so much story you can put in a game. On March 24 2013 01:26 Big J wrote: so, I gotta say that I'm a little disappointed by both, the story and the gameplay. -) the campaign was too short -) I'm with the OP that it just doesn't make any sense that Kerrigan is the Queen of Blades again after WoL. I mean, seriously. In Wings you fight through something like 35missions to find that superpowerful Artifact. And make Kerrigan Human again. 5 missions into HotS: "this sucks... let's infest her again" And then you have all those uninteresting characters... random zerg beings. Only Za'gara shows some depth - but she doesn't take her chance(s) to overthrow Kerrigan and instead just bows to her, over and over again... -) The unit evolutions and strains as well as Kerrigans abilities are basically all irrelevant. -) Brutal is much too easy. Maybe that's just my thinking. But when I do an easy, medium, hard, brutal setup, they should mean: easy - everybody can do that. You get a story and you are allowed to click around units. medium - there might be one or two scenes per mission that require some attention. hard - you chose hard. Make use of that safe/load options because you won't beat every mission on the first try. brutal - you are not intended to beat this unless you already know the mission. Beating this difficulty means that you have to learn each and every trigger in that mission and use as many gimmicks as possible. And you really must choose Kerrigans abilities accordingly! I only played on brutal. It was like: "Hm, I guess I screwed this attack up. Nevermind, just send another attack. Oh, a surprise assault on my base, I guess I'm fucked. Oh wait, cleaned the mess up, rebuilt and just continue playing. Savegame? Never heard of it". There were only like three missions that required me to load or restart... I could go on... Well, I've played worse. And I'm not of the opinion that SC1/BW stories were "sooo much better". But I expected much more after how Wings ended. And after those Protoss missions in Wings. I mean... Who the fuck is Amon? I don't give a damn about somebody that isn't there. Somebody who is not a main character in a single mission. Also... I dislike stories in which each and every hero survives. The story would have been much cooler if Kerrigan would have redeemed herself in the endscene and the swarm would go over to Za'gara. Or if Raynor really had died. Or been infested by Narud/Eamon. The story doesn't deliver memorable scenes. And even more, unmakes the memorable actions from WoL. 1. The campaign wasn't much shorter than any other SC games, and was longer than BW, I believe. 2. The Queen of Blades pre-HoTS and the Queen of Blades in HoTS are totally different. The Xel'naga artifact allowed Kerrigan to reinfest herself willingly, as opposed to being forced into it, and also allowed her to retain her humanity in her mind, though not in her body. As noted earlier, the old Queen of Blades would never have spared civilians or loved Jim Raynor. The artifact makes it possible. The WoL story is NOT pointless. It is the only reason why the HoTS story is even possible. 3. First of all, not every character in a story has to be super important and significant. There is such a thing as a minor character, which many people in this thread do not seem to understand. Also, Za'gara bowing to Kerrigan makes perfect sense-Kerrigan is the one who taught her almost everything she knows, and trying to overthrow her before learning everything she could would screw her over later. 4. The Amon thing is just setup for LotV. I thought this was pretty obvious... Brutal being too easy is a valid complaint, I suppose. The campaigns were never really intended to be that difficult, though. That's what multiplayer is for. I don't think this campaign was perfect, by any means, but I found it an enjoyable experience, and most of the complaints I'm seeing here are based off of people either not understanding the story, or looking for things to complain about. | ||
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