|
On March 17 2013 04:39 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 04:28 Gradius wrote:
Furthermore, the word "retcon" has a broad range of definitions, and can include any change whatsoever that alters the audience's perception of something, of which this definitely qualifies. Saying that it's "lack of information" is blatant dishonesty. They could retcon Raynor in SC3 to be the second coming Jesus Christ and justify it as "lack of information". If there's some definition of retcon out there that fits your argument, then fine. The only one I use is that a retcon is changing previously established lore, or contradicting it with new lore. Something that changes the audience's perception I'd call a revelation, speaking of Jesus.
The thing is revelation is a spectrum. A mystery revelation where all the pieces are in place and suddenly the audience is made aware of the reasoning behind a murder and how it happened fits with the plot because it is the culmination of careful setup. Without that setup the mystery novel would fall flat on its face and ends up being a bad mystery.
Similarly you can have a show about high school kid life and in episode 25 it's suddenly revealed that the main character is the only one who can fight off the alien invasion using a giant robot. There's nothing in the previous episodes that contradicts this possibility but without any setup it just ends up suddenly being a completely different show from what it was when it started whether or not the story's facts remain compatible.
So even if you make the argument that the Zerg weren't retconned I'd still make the argument that the revelation was handled very poorly and things that should have been explained or had more attention given to them simply were not and hurt the story as a result. I'd call it a bait-and-switch except that the writing teams between SC1 and SC2 are pretty different (even if Metzen was there the entire time).
|
I think Zoomacroom and the like would have a good chuckle at this
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197861538
Cloaken - Community Manager
So happy you have enjoyed it! I can tell you that the team here at Blizzard have poured their heart and soul into the game and really thrilled that it is being received so warmly.
We will keep working to ensure that the gaming experiences we continue to put out (LotV) are pushing our abilities in the medium. But, you are right, the bar has been set very high here.
My personal kudos to the entire team, along with yours!
|
SC was all about the pushing and shoving of entire worlds and armies and races, a competition of mindsets and values. The player played both with and against each character.
So why in the world is maybe hte 5th most interesting character from SC1 the prime villain in SC2? I'm talking about Mengsk, who was supposedly defeated for the final time at the end of Brood War. Like, he was a 2nd tier villain in SC1 -- the UED and Kerrigan were both the major villains, other than the Overmind in SC1.
Now, we have all this talk about the prophecy and hybrids and so on, and we are made to believe that the ultimate villain is some Dark Voice who is now randomly given a name in HotS (totally don't remember the name, it was weird), but we never actually play/fight against that guy. How come the supposed number one villain of SC2 we don't actually even SEE until the third act, or even their influence?
In fact, this story has been all about the overthrowing of Mengsk. I rolled my eyes at the notion that the entirety of WoL would involve overthrowing Mengsk, which I considered a huge stretch. THEY DIDN'T EVEN DO IT THEN. In SC:BW, overthrowing Mengsk was like two missions -- destroy the shipyards, invade Korhal, DONE. Here, it's TWO ENTIRE GAMES.
Like, I always forget that the Protoss even exist. There are no Protoss characters, just Protoss plot devices (Zeratul).
A story completely unlike and undeserving of its parent.
|
On March 17 2013 04:52 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 04:39 Daniri wrote:On March 17 2013 04:28 Gradius wrote:
Furthermore, the word "retcon" has a broad range of definitions, and can include any change whatsoever that alters the audience's perception of something, of which this definitely qualifies. Saying that it's "lack of information" is blatant dishonesty. They could retcon Raynor in SC3 to be the second coming Jesus Christ and justify it as "lack of information". If there's some definition of retcon out there that fits your argument, then fine. The only one I use is that a retcon is changing previously established lore, or contradicting it with new lore. Something that changes the audience's perception I'd call a revelation, speaking of Jesus. The thing is revelation is a spectrum. A mystery revelation where all the pieces are in place and suddenly the audience is made aware of the reasoning behind a murder and how it happened fits with the plot because it is the culmination of careful setup. Without that setup the mystery novel would fall flat on its face and ends up being a bad mystery. Similarly you can have a show about high school kid life and in episode 25 it's suddenly revealed that the main character is the only one who can fight off the alien invasion using a giant robot. There's nothing in the previous episodes that contradicts this possibility but without any setup it just ends up suddenly being a completely different show from what it was when it started whether or not the story's facts remain compatible. So even if you make the argument that the Zerg weren't retconned I'd still make the argument that the revelation was handled very poorly and things that should have been explained or had more attention given to them simply were not and hurt the story as a result. I'd call it a bait-and-switch except that the writing teams between SC1 and SC2 are pretty different (even if Metzen was there the entire time).
Wasn't it mentioned during one of the Blizzcons(2010 i think) that like 2/3th of the SC1 screw are still working on SC2? The majority of old Blizzard that is no more is Blizzard North.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I do think they brought in some new writers for SC2, but the old ones should still be there.
|
Anyone who enjoyed this story did not play BW.
SC1 and BW campaign had everything these campaigns do not. Manipulation, cunning, cutthroat, missions that felt like they were legitimately progressing towards a goal as opposed to some sidetracked garbage.
Kerrigan could have killed Mengsk at anytime in BW. She had him in a holding cell. SHE CLEARLY CHOSE NOT TO KILL HIM. Raynor was dedicated on killing Kerrigan. YES HE GAVE UP ON HER.
Blizzard legitimately just continues to shit on the SC2 lore. It was one of the most disappointing stories I've ever encountered. The missions themselves were relatively enjoyable. However, every single mission was able to be accomplished on 2 base. The final mission on brutal... finishing it easy on TWO BASE where you basically start out on 2base?!?! I could take the second base with my first few units I started out with on brutal, wtf! No epic feeling whatsoever.
|
If there's some definition of retcon out there that fits your argument, then fine. The only one I use is that a retcon is changing previously established lore, or contradicting it with new lore.
Then I suggest you start going by the definition everybody else uses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity
"Addition
Retcons do not necessarily directly contradict previously established facts. Sometimes, they fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points."
Unfortunately, the Overmind being possessed by Satan is a retcon no matter which definition you want to use.
None of Amon's influence was clear, concise.(as this debate it seems...)
You're right, it's shrouded in bullshit and whenever the opportunity arises in the lore to disprove this, you can cop-out with the excuse of "oh, the Overmind didn't have free will in this case". Unfortunately, this is transparent cherrypicking and doesn't hold up.
Why would cerebrates or Kerrigan pick up on it if they were under the influence of Overmind(and perhaps indirectly under Amon's?)
Cerebrates are part of the Overmind. That's why Zeratul's attack on Zasz stunned the Overmind, and why assassinating the cerebrates on Aiur "laid the path bare to the Overmind".
As such, if the Overmind was imprisoned or raging in the prison of his own mind, then other cerebrates would be doing so as well. You yourself played as a cerebrate, further piling on the mental gymnastics that you guys have to jump through in order to defend this story.
And Kerrigan does make a mention of it in one of the Zerus missions I believe. That she felt something dark but wasn't quite sure what, which is interesting because Overmind specifically created her to elude Amon's reach.
The only thing this cop-out proves is that for the Overmind's contrived plan to work, he had to count on Kerrigan getting deinfested. The fact that he saw an actual vision of the future was recently retconned, so good luck rationalizing that.
|
It was ok, good fun, the gameplay was amazing, so overall a good experience and memory
|
On March 17 2013 05:26 Gradius wrote:Show nested quote +If there's some definition of retcon out there that fits your argument, then fine. The only one I use is that a retcon is changing previously established lore, or contradicting it with new lore. Then I suggest you start going by the definition everybody else uses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity
I already conceded your point and you still want to argue with me?
The retcon is considered by many to occur when current events contradict the past continuity of the series
|
I already conceded your point and you still want to argue with me?
Sorry, I thought you were implying that I made up a definition to fit my argument.
|
not sure if stupid or troll :-D
User was warned for this post
|
Its a tragic story, the tale of the Romeo and Juliet who could never be. I think Rainer and Kerigan finally realized that their love was never meant to be. Bittersweet, the closing cutscene at the palace might be their last time ever seeing each other. Amon must die, and until he does and the universe is save, any hope of them ever being together is null.
Overall I liked the story, course the story was the main reason why I bought the game, i played it on normal to go threw it faster even.
I wonder if that is the end of the Rainer Kerigan plotline, wonder if someone has read the books and can tell me. I have a feeling the Kerigan/Zeratul plotline will begin as they wage war against the Hybrids.
Ahh twas the life of Jimmy these two games, tragic as always, however he is able to look beyond it.
|
Anyone see any topics or posts talking about the leaked ending that happened a while back?
I'm not very disappointed or surprised, but maybe a little of both that they didn't change the ending at all from what was leaked a year ago (or whenever that was).
As far as I know it was identical down to every minute detail.
edit: not just 1 year, but apparently 2 years and 3 months ago (damn that's a long time)
|
On March 16 2013 20:47 levelping wrote:
I also want to say that your options aren't really good to show a true positive/negative reaction. There is confusion between an objective good/bad assessment, and then there is the relative comaprison with WOL, and other Blizzard franchises. I think you should have picked either the objective or relative standards and stuck with that, as opposed to having two, and confusing people.
Thanks, that is a really good point. It's too late to change it now, but I'll remember that in future. There is definitely an art to creating good polls/surveys, and it's one I'm not particularly well versed in.
P.S. I read your whole long post, I didn't reply to it directly because I basically agreed with everything in it, but it's too bad no one from the other camp took the time to respond. It seems they would rather nitpick and split hairs over smaller issues than to redress a sweeping critique of the whole narrative direction of the series, as you've provided. Or, they simply give the "Shakespeare argument" as you coin it, which has been repeated literally dozens of times in this thread alone.
Jim apparently dies. His love, the only thing that was moving her towards redemption, makes her lose faith in humanity (the parallels between mengsk abandoning her and horner and crew abandoning jim should have been clearer. Make Sarah ask them to turn around the ship, and Horner can say "belay that order...").
Sarah sees this as a betrayal of Jim, and leaves the hyperion.
Wow, that's actually a great parallel, I hadn't even thought of it. Unfortunately, like you said it wasn't highlighted or made clear at all, and it seems it was all accidental anyway. I can't wait for someone to read this, pretend that it was intentional and that they realized it when they played the game, and tout it as example of the narrative subtly and thematic depth of HotS. Seriously, that'll be really funny.
P.P.S. "hot ghost ass" lol.
|
On March 16 2013 13:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE. Did you even play the BW story? Raynor probably has the single most famous line in any SC game when he says "I'm the man that's gonna kill you some day". He hates her by the end of BW, and is dead-set on killing her for all of the atrocious things that happened. Then he does a complete 180 in the beginning of WoL and all we ever hear about is how he's so desperate to get her back. There's NO character development where he really struggles with the fact that he's trying to save the single most evil entity in the sector. Sure, they had something between them, but it was by no means an actual relationship; this is blatantly clear by the dialogue shortly before Kerrigan is infested the first time. It was something that was budding but hiding under the surface. Then, all of a sudden, despite the billions that Kerrigan's killed, WoL curtains rise and he's madly in love. Back to the original point, yes, the writing was fucking terrible. It was marginally better than WoL, but it was still absolutely atrocious. There is no character consistency and only Raynor, Kerrigan, and Valerian have any depth to them whatsoever. Handling Narud in that was was just stupid, and Mengsk is just "superblandvillain #10000000", with no personality or interesting things about him whatsoever. The script was just awful. The voice acting for all of the new Zerg characters was pathetic; they sounded more like the Adjutant than they did Zerg, and their lines were very cheesy and out-of-place. I've never been a fan of Kerrigan's new voice actress, and her delivery of Kerrigan's script reeked of too much effort (of course, her script was trashy and soap-opera-esque so she had little to work with). The story elements were non-existent or just terribly done. There was very little actual content in the story; Kerrigan escapes, gets power, gets power, gets power, kills Narud, kills Mengsk. So much more could've been done with the Protoss on Khaldir, but they had little to no personality behind them and all we did was just kill them. The appearance of Zeratul was mind-numbingly stupid, and the entire Zerus plotline was unnecessary. The Feral Zerg bit just felt completely out-of-place and the whole thing about gaining more and more power is just ridiculous. She's a fucking Class 10 psionic entity, and was already by far the most powerful individual in the sector during BW. Why travel to ZERUS to have the exact same thing done to you that Abothur (SP?) could've just done? Especially when the art team was too lazy to actually make the change look different and at least symbolize that there was something different about her, but no; she's basically the exact same Queen of Blades as she was in WoL, making the entire WoL storyline moot. Let's take a moment here to appreciate the complete retcons with Zerus. The planet was originally a volcanic ash planet that was left lifeless (quoted from the original SC manual) when the Zerg left it. Furthermore, the original Zerg were parasitic entities, not massive beasts. Let's also talk about the crap we get from the Zerg and how they try to portray them as misunderstood and just trying to survive. Really? Because you fuckers haven't already done this before? I swear, Metzen is willfully retarded to think that he isn't blatantly ripping off the Orc storyline for the Zerg one. Not only that, everything is pointing to a Protoss-Zerg-Terran vs. Amon finale, an obvious ripoff of the RoC finale against Archimonde. Stukov was just bullshit filler to get a reaction from the old-time players; he served all of zero purpose in the actual story. Narud was a character that had been alive for thousands of years and completely fooled Kerrigan during the Brood War; now he's just "superblandvillain #1000001" and dies in one of the cheesiest ways possible. And of course, on and on with the dumbass prophecy bullshit that ruins so many stories. And Amon? "Yes, I went to the trouble of creating two separate, intricate races, died, and now all I want to do is destroy the universe." Bland, Sauron-esque villain with no purpose that heavily retcon's previous lore. Killing Mengsk? We fucking copy-pasted the UED invasion of Korhal, but actually killed Mengsk in the end. I mean really. It was like a fucking ten-year-old wrote this story. The ending made me want to bitch slap Metzen across the face. Another cheesy, substance-less ending where characters go off into the sunset, either saying nothing or saying meaningless bullshit. This story is playing out like a terrible, terrible movie. I mean people should be fired over this shit writing. If any other company did this kind of crap, they wouldn't be able to get away with it. I don't think I can truly express how fucking atrocious the writing for WoL, HotS, and D3 have been. Metzen, you are a genuinely horrific writer and absolutely nothing that you've done with SC2 or D3 has been any good.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into writing.
The flying (WTF SHE CAN FLY?!?! WHY DIDN'T SHE DO THIS EARLIER!) off into the sunset was just the dagger to the heart. It's like a hollywood script for 13year olds.
Durans death is insulting to a thinking mind (DBZ really? And why would Kerrigan be fooled by a shapeshifter...).
Mengsk has ZERO character development and it takes 2 games to kill him when in BW (and clearly in this world too) is a minor character who leads a single faction which isn't anywhere closest to the strongest or even tied into the overall plot of the game with the XelNaga. Either this game or WoL weren't necessary.
Zeratul and the Protoss in general have basically no role in this game.
Oh, honest question: Was a single line of Raynor's not a cliched one-liner? Seriously.
Oh... and if we have a re-hash of WC3, with 3 factions uniting to stop Amon, then we should petition to get Metzen fired...
|
On March 17 2013 07:55 On_Slaught wrote:
Durans death is insulting to a thinking mind (DBZ really? Or Harry Potter
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
As far as I know it was identical down to every minute detail.
Some things are different from leaked ending. Like some removed stupid quotes and added Xel'Naga artifact whicn wasn't in leaked ending
|
On March 17 2013 04:09 Gradius wrote:
No dark voice. It's a retcon. Saying that it's just "lack of information" is like saying that Raynor is a shapeshifting space-teletubby with magical powers, and you can't prove that he's not.
Let's run with it. This is how LotV is gonna go:
Amon impersonated Tassadar on Char to convince Zeratul that Kerrigan is somehow the person that's going to save the universe from him. He did this because having Kerrigan alive would actually help Amon immensely when he tries to take over the Korprulu sector. He needs someone to weaken the Terran Dominion and the Protoss. Kerrigan has already done the former, and she killed a lot of Protoss on Kaldir, to which they're likely to retaliate. This in fighting of the three races is just what Amon wants and needs.
Meanwhile, Jim Raynor is a shapeshifting space teletubby much like Duran/Narud, and has been an agent of Amon since the beginning of SC1. His purpose is to also weaken the Terran forces in the sector (constantly "rebelling" against whatever Terran government in power), and protecting Sarah Kerrigan, who, while not directly is an agent of Amon herself, is crucial to his plans to rule the universe.
Throughout the story of SC1 and SC2, Amon has used his two principal agents, Narud and Raynor, to prepare his arrival and domination of the sector. In LotV, any semblance of Terran force in the sector is in ruins, The Protoss and Zerg are warring in the meantime, and Amon can waltz right in and take the throne.
If anyone finds any fault with this storyline, some contradictions in the actions of Jim Raynor that may disprove the idea that he is an agent of Amon, well I'm sure there will be enough Xel'Naga artifacts and bouts of amnesia to mollify your concerns. Remember, this is not a retcon, this is expansion of lore.
|
Ok guys, i solved it. Blizzard introduced Amon because he's going to be the big villain in World of Starcraft, or Titan if you prefer the working title. That's why they want to make zergs "good" instead of "evil" so terrans, protoss and zerg are all playable races against Amons (burning) legion. Just like they did to orcs in wc3 prior to WoW. There, you're welcome.
No, i'm actually not serious.
|
On March 17 2013 08:27 Juisson wrote:
Ok guys, i solved it. Blizzard introduced Amon because he's going to be the big villain in World of Starcraft, or Titan if you prefer the working title. That's why they want to make zergs "good" instead of "evil" so terrans, protoss and zerg are all playable races against Amons (burning) legion. Just like they did to orcs in wc3 prior to WoW. There, you're welcome.
No, i'm actually not serious.
On a more serious note, i thought the story was ok but there was 3 things i had a problem with:
1. They spent the first campaign turning Kerrigan human and the second campaign turning her zerg again. Only this time she's "good"? The evil backstabbing queen of blades from BW was great, bring her back.
2. Duran is dead now? I expected a lot more from him after BW.
3. Stukov making an appearance but not really doing anything.
|
On March 17 2013 08:27 Juisson wrote:
Ok guys, i solved it. Blizzard introduced Amon because he's going to be the big villain in World of Starcraft, or Titan if you prefer the working title. That's why they want to make zergs "good" instead of "evil" so terrans, protoss and zerg are all playable races against Amons (burning) legion. Just like they did to orcs in wc3 prior to WoW. There, you're welcome.
No, i'm actually not serious.
oh cool hey what's up Chris Metzen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
