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On March 16 2013 19:19 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 08:20 Lauriel wrote:On March 16 2013 05:39 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2013 05:37 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2013 05:31 dcemuser wrote:On March 16 2013 03:50 StarBrift wrote:On March 15 2013 08:12 bbfg wrote:
Uhm if you didn't get it from the games that they were a thing you certainly should have gotten it from the books. But really, you should have gotten it from the games, too. Actually no. There was no indication in sc1 vanilla or brood war that they were dating or romantically involved. Go replay the games and you'll see. THey were flirting constantly but the story of them being in love was introduced in WoL. Are you serious? The end of SC1's Terran campaign and the beginning of its Zerg campaign makes it absolutely clear that he is head over heels for her. He leads HUNDREDS of men to their deaths deep into Zerg space for a CHANCE to rescue her (and he fails anyway). If that isn't love, then Jim Raynor is mentally retarded. On March 16 2013 05:25 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2013 05:21 SI2 wrote:
Well, I read a couple of pages to get where this thread is going. Some people are raging hard and some people are happy about the game.
The problem is, I feel that people who criticize would NEVER be happy no matter how the game comes out. Personnaly, I have been playing sc and bw since a child and waiting so long for SC2 it was a real treat to me see such an upgrade of the game with awesome graphics, awesome units and most of all awesome cinematics.
Because that you like the story or not, In my opinion the cinematics in the games are wonderful, they make you a lot into the story even if it's cheesy (for me anyways). Jim is an awesome character and Kerrigan is hot. The teen in me is very satisfied and I can't wait for part three....(Damn i'll be old when it comes out!) When you typed "I feel that people who criticize would NEVER be happy no matter how the game comes out" how did you feel? Was that a joke? I'm baffled that someone could actually formulate that thought. Of course the people that found it to be of poor quality would be happy if it was better quality. How ridiculous. No, that's false because quality is purely subjective. Certain personalities with certain opinions will always find a way to think that X or Y is terrible, even if it was the Lord of the Rings of RTS videogame storytelling. People in this thread are nitpicking aspects of HotS while ignoring the same (or worse) flaws in all three previous titles. Everyone that is negatively criticizing the expansion in this thread are consistently hitting the same points: Dialogue, the plot holes, and the resolution of Duran IE if these items were of better quality the people that have an issue with the game would be happier. Why is it that it seems to be the purpose of some individuals to try to convince everyone else that 2+2=5 when we all know the real arithmetic Because math isn't an opinion. How a story resonates with you is. Story dresonates differently with people based on their intelligence level and their level of emotional maturity. If there is good dialogue and storytelling in a game that shines through for a vast majority of players. It's not about opinion, it's about the fact that some people set their standards very low. Maybe because they never experienced good storytelling before (with todays mainstream entertainment this is very possible) or they simply are to emotionally and socially immature to detect it. The dialogue in HOTS was honestly horrendous. It was 90%+ kerrigan speaking to her zerg minions and trying to explain to them the upsides of her human side. This get very very tiring once its done 5 times in a row and it really doesn't add antyhing new to the story after the first time. I just don't see why blizzard being once of the richest companies in game making couldn't just hire a real writer for the story and build the game around that instead of "look at all these cool units".
So now the people who hated the story are in the "emotionally mature and intelligent group," and the ones who didn't hate it are those who just aren't smart enough to understand it sucked? Stories also resonate differently with people based on their personal experiences, social attitudes, and a host of other reasons. Is it possible to have a more condescending attitude?
"It's ok little friend, you're just not smart enough to know what you like is awful. Go have a juice box and watch Spongebob."
Ridiculous.
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On March 16 2013 20:37 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 18:59 Gatesleeper wrote:
Before HotS, we understood that the Zerg we were familiar with was the product of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years of evolution, of assimilated creatures from many different worlds. It was unclear as to whether any of the Zerg strains we saw originated from Zerus. But then, in HotS, when we go back there, they have Primal Zerglings, Banelings, Hydralisks, Roaches, Mutalisks, Guardians, and Ultralisks, did I miss any?
This retcon, in my opinion, makes the history of the Zerg less meaningful because instead of a race that's been constantly evolving over a number of years, becoming better and better versions of themselves, the Zerg we have now in HotS don't seem all that impressive at all. Where did all that evolution go? We go back to Zerus, and these Primal Zerg, these directionless creatures that haven't even managed space travel, are just as strong as anything the Overmind/Kerrigan controlled Zerg managed to produce. They're literally just the same units with different skins. I guess they just threw out all those "countless" assimilated strains? The 5 or 6 strains native to Zerus were the ones the Zerg stuck with, huh?
The reason the primal zerg had those strains is because they assimilated the new essence the Swarm brought when they came to Zerus. This was explained by Abathur. Show nested quote +
Re: Amon.
This one's a lot simpler. When we heard of the "higher power" Duran was working for in Brood War, I, and everyone else, assumed he was talking about the Xel'Naga. And we were half right. What we were presented with in WoL/HotS wasn't the Xel'Naga per se, but a single entity known as Amon/The Dark Voice, a renegade Xel'Naga. It's a dumb idea, and I have no idea why they went in this direction. I guarantee that this particular plot point wasn't set in stone after Brood War, hell, even after Wings of Liberty, a mere three years ago, we never heard of this Amon character, I just assumed the Dark Voice spoke for all Xel'Naga.
We actually did know of Amon in WoL as that was the file name of the Dark Voice. And I don't know why you would think he spoke for all Xel'Naga when he was clearly their enemy. I mean, did you even listen to his lines? Or do you remember the Xel'Naga cycle and why it would be counterproductive to destroy the Zerg and Protoss? And the cycle was the thing he was bent on stopping? Show nested quote +Anyway, the existence of Amon, and the fact that he supposedly corrupted the Overmind by himself without the consent of the rest of the Xel'Naga, is a retcon, and a poor one. For the game to tell us that the Infested Kerrigan we see in SC1/BW was always under the influence of this renegade Xel'Naga is another terrible retcon. Because SC1/BW already had an established storyline that went in the same vein: While the Overmind was alive, Kerrigan was under its influence. When the Overmind died, Kerrigan was 100% in control of her actions. This plot point made total sense, and explained why Kerrigan was so eager to stop the second Overmind from forming. When it was said in WoL that the Overmind was corrupted it wasn't a retcon, it was an expansion of lore, however good or bad. But in HotS when it was said by Zurvan that the corruption of the zerg was the hive mind itself, that's very much a retcon if we're supposed to take his word for gospel. Need clarity on this. Show nested quote +To then overwrite that and say, "well actually, she was under the influence of a third party all this time too" is sloppy writing. The reason they did it was so they can excuse to Raynor, Zeratul, the audience, Kerrigan's terrible sins in the past. Now we get to say "Oh, all those terrible things she did in Brood War no longer count because she wasn't herself." Ugh, horrible stuff. I guess Blizzard really wanted to have Kerrigan as a protagonist and not a villain in SC2, so they had to whitewash her history. Which is weird, because she was firmly a villain for most of SC1/BW, and we the audience were fine with playing from her perspective. I very much liked the Queen of Blades in SC1, but it obviously wasn't the same person she would have been without being infested. I don't need and never have needed an excuse for her actions, because it wasn't her actions. It doesn't matter if the Overmind was controlling her when her very being had been corrupted. If somehow I were taken over by aliens that warped my personality, once returning to normal don't expect me to feel remorse for anyone "I" may have killed.
Beat me to it. *Clap*
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I just wanted to settle one thing:
On March 16 2013 18:59 Gatesleeper wrote:
Before HotS, we understood that the Zerg we were familiar with was the product of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years of evolution, of assimilated creatures from many different worlds. It was unclear as to whether any of the Zerg strains we saw originated from Zerus. But then, in HotS, when we go back there, they have Primal Zerglings, Banelings, Hydralisks, Roaches, Mutalisks, Guardians, and Ultralisks, did I miss any?
Zerglings are assimilated dune runner creatures from Zz'gash.
Mutalisks are assimilated mantis screamers from the Dinares Sector.
Roaches are assimilated zantar slugs from Garxxax, and were only created in the year 2501, making it doubly impossible for them to be on Zerus.
Hydralisks are assimilated sloth creatures, home world unspecified, but I don't think sloth creatures exist on volcanic ash planets, which is of course Zerus pre-retcon.
This retcon, in my opinion, makes the history of the Zerg less meaningful because instead of a race that's been constantly evolving over a number of years, becoming better and better versions of themselves, the Zerg we have now in HotS don't seem all that impressive at all. Where did all that evolution go? We go back to Zerus, and these Primal Zerg, these directionless creatures that haven't even managed space travel, are just as strong as anything the Overmind/Kerrigan controlled Zerg managed to produce. They're literally just the same units with different skins. I guess they just threw out all those "countless" assimilated strains? The 5 or 6 strains native to Zerus were the ones the Zerg stuck with, huh?
If I remember correctly, during the Zerus missions, if you talked to Abathur he tells Kerrigan his concerns about how the beasts on Zerus have already assimilated the essences of the zerg, and thus have been able to replicate their units on the battlefield. It makes sense considering how the primal zerg operate (acquiring the essence of other beings). Besides that I don't see anything inherently wrong with having some renegade, primal zerg that were never incorporated into the overmind, but I guess we already agree on that point.
While the Overmind was alive, Kerrigan was under its influence. When the Overmind died, Kerrigan was 100% in control of her actions. This plot point made total sense, and explained why Kerrigan was so eager to stop the second Overmind from forming.
To then overwrite that and say, "well actually, she was under the influence of a third party all this time too" is sloppy writing. The reason they did it was so they can excuse to Raynor, Zeratul, the audience, Kerrigan's terrible sins in the past. Now we get to say "Oh, all those terrible things she did in Brood War no longer count because she wasn't herself." Ugh, horrible stuff. I guess Blizzard really wanted to have Kerrigan as a protagonist and not a villain in SC2, so they had to whitewash her history. Which is weird, because she was firmly a villain for most of SC1/BW, and we the audience were fine with playing from her perspective.
Well was it really sloppy? I remember in the original Starcraft, originally we thought the overmind controlled his own will, but later we learned that the overmind recognized that his race was being enslaved by the Xel'naga (or one of their members, don't remember exactly), and he wanted to save them from their influence, secretly, through Kerrigan (I believe).
So in the same sense they're creating an influence out of nowhere that is secretly affecting Kerrigan and trying to control her swarm. That is, the Xel'naga's influence extended farther than the overmind thought, but that the relic managed to clear away this influence and return Kerrigan to her original human state where she could control the swarm free of any influence. I guess I don't understand why its inherently wrong to do the same thing twice? It just doesn't even register as a problem in my brain. Its just something new I learned. Like "oh, so she was being influenced. Okay".
It also want to reiterate your point that it clears away any problems between Raynor and Kerrigan, because Raynor openly states during the beginning of HotS that she wasn't herself when she was the queen of blades. And the nice thing in the story is Raynor gets to realize that this new Queen of Blades isn't the same as the old one, which I thought was nice and touching that he could accept her for that and believe in her in spite of what she did to herself.
- - -
But anyway, besides that: I just wanted to say I really enjoyed the story. I don't know, maybe I just have a soft spot for Raynor and Kerrigan, but the story definitely had a lot of twists and turns. The environments were all unique, there were many unique characters that I thought were interesting.
Some parts bothered me a little, but all it made me do was say "aww, well that's just unrealistic". In comparison I see people here going into an uncontrolled fit of rage lol (see the first post that the OP "recommends"). Like with Kerrigan being shocked by Narud's shapeshifting into her own form, or that of Jim Raynor's. I don't think its that bad to be honest, I can understand how one could be temporarily shocked if you see someone who means a lot to you. Its not a purely rational process where you think "hmm I'm in a temple, far away from the Dominion, I don't think this is Jim Raynor". There are things that simply affect us on a psychological level that we have no rational control over, and this is what happened in my view.
But the rest was pretty good. There are lots of things that are done over and over again in movies, but we never tire of them but instead find them essential. I think the relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan is one of those things. This expansion had lots of adventures into very interesting environments, with some really fun missions (I loved mind control, and I loved the battlecruiser in an asteroid field!). I think the part I like best is Kerrigan's pet zergling who walks with her  .
Edit: haha. Looks like I was beaten to it by someone else. Oh well I'll leave this up 
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On March 17 2013 00:42 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 00:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 17 2013 00:16 Daniri wrote:On March 17 2013 00:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 16 2013 23:44 Daniri wrote:
Stratos, I notice you have Oblivion as your profile pic. Did you know, as I'm sure you might, Cyrodiil was once entirely a jungle but when they went to make Oblivion they decided that would look boring and waved the CHIM hand to change the climate? These things happen all the time, and while they shouldn't, it's a really minor thing to latch onto. Zerus made up a significant portion of the campaign and ties together a lot of the (terribly written) plot points, so no, it isn't that minor. My response to you was very specific and has nothing to do with what you just said. Yes, it does. You said that yes, retconning sucks, but Zerus's was minor, so it's not that big of a deal. I directly refuted your claim that it was a minor plot point. The specific change of Zerus's appearance was minor, and it isn't that big deal, yes. Any other problems you had about went on on Zerus is beside the point. Including the "lifeless" retcon, which was a much more significant one. Though I'd like to know all of what your problems were, as the only one I had was Zurvan saying Amon alone created the Overmind. He either has to be mistaken or that's a ridiculous retcon.
You're splitting hairs for the sake of trying to be right without any real substance. Separating "Zerus is a volcanic, lifeless planet" from the rest of the problems with Zerus and the Feral Zerg retcon is meaningless. They all go together. Zerus being a volcanic and lifeless planet means that the entire idea of Feral Zerg is a complete retcon and is inconsistent with previous lore. Feral Zerg played an important role in the story (giving Kerrigan a means of re-infesting herself, finding out about Amon, continuing to retcon the Zerg's past).
Edit: In fact, if you read the manual, it says that the Overmind's trip to Terran space took 60 years. He left a lifeless, volcanic husk and in a little over 60 years it's all of a sudden a lush jungle world with hyper-evolved, intelligent living species on it?
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On March 15 2013 07:35 Phay wrote:
Kerrigan: A drone? Do you know what could happen if I take control of a Zerg??
Valerian: I know, I know, but we are in a very controlled environment.
Now, build a hatchery
Now, build a spawning pool!
<facepalm>
that got me, they were TRYING to do the tutorial to zerg, but really couldn't due to the story
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On March 17 2013 01:37 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:35 Phay wrote:
Kerrigan: A drone? Do you know what could happen if I take control of a Zerg??
Valerian: I know, I know, but we are in a very controlled environment.
Now, build a hatchery
Now, build a spawning pool!
<facepalm> that got me, they were TRYING to do the tutorial to zerg, but really couldn't due to the story
Hell, they could've just gone the way of SC's Zerg tutorial; have someone try to walk Kerrigan through controlling Zerg once you get to the actual Zerg missions while she yells at them for treating her like she doesn't know what she's doing.
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The main arguments from people who "enjoyed" the HotS story seem to be either:
"Well, what do you expect? All video game stories suck. Just sit back and 'enjoy' it".
or
"There is no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to story so there is no reason to debate it".
All this does is dodging actually having a conversation about the quality of the story-telling and writing. What's so intimidating about agreeing on some objective grounds for what's good/bad about a story and having a real discussion about it?
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On March 17 2013 01:49 UBavarice wrote:
The main arguments from people who "enjoyed" the HotS story seem to be either:
"Well, what do you expect? All video game stories suck. Just sit back and 'enjoy' it".
or
"There is no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to story so there is no reason to debate it".
All this does is dodging actually having a conversation about the quality of the story-telling and writing. What's so intimidating about agreeing on some objective grounds for what's good/bad about a story and having a real discussion about it?
I'm not really sure where I stand on this. I don't think I really qualify to judge story writing or anything. All I know is that I played it through, and for the time I was playing it, I enjoyed it. I dislike how short it seemed, and I wanted more Protoss/Zeratul story in there as well as more development to Raynor/Sarah's relationship.
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On March 17 2013 01:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:
You're splitting hairs for the sake of trying to be right without any real substance. Separating "Zerus is a volcanic, lifeless planet" from the rest of the problems with Zerus and the Feral Zerg retcon is meaningless.
Well, I am right, aren't I? You wouldn't know that, I suppose, as you still don't understand the very small point I was making. Cyrodiil was changed from a jungle, Zerus was changed to a jungle. It happens all the time. Going on about the manual, climate, dinosaurs and the millions of years it takes for the various stages of planetary formation is what's meaningless.
They all go together. Zerus being a volcanic and lifeless planet means that the entire idea of Feral Zerg is a complete retcon and is inconsistent with previous lore. Feral Zerg played an important role in the story (giving Kerrigan a means of re-infesting herself, finding out about Amon, continuing to retcon the Zerg's past).
Why are you calling primal zerg feral zerg? Anyway, Zerus being volcanic has nothing to do with the primal zerg. There could be primal zerg even if it was volcanic. Lifeless is the retcon that matters there. If you didn't like the primal zerg I can certainly see why you would fixate on it.
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I don't remember who or where it was, but I recall someone pointing out that the plot of Starcraft is not science fiction at all (which Raynor says outright near the end of WoL), but a western, complete with the cowboy walking off into the sunset with the girl in his arms. Well, HotS just turned out to be a darker western, with the tragic hero obsessed with revenge at any cost. If you look at it in this light, not expecting much depth but rather an archetypical story with a sci-fi flair, I found it to be not so bad.
There were a few moments when I was pretty disappointed - ie. how they handled Narud and Stukov. No indication of the rich personal history between the two, or between Narud/Duran and Kerrigan, and frankly Narud didn't really come across as ominous/threatening as he did in the SC:BW secret mission, and there didn't seem to be any linkages between his work then and how he came to be in a Dominion lab.
and a few where I was pleasantly surprised - nearly all of pre-re-infested Kerrigan, the cinematic confrontation between Warfield and Kerrigan, and the characterizations/interactions with Zagara and Abathur. By the end of the campaign I actually thought the way they handled Abathur was quite good - subtly funny.
Now, if they REALLY wanted emotional depth, I think they should have spent a little more time on Kerrigan's deliberations to become re-infested. It was a little rushed, and left a bit of "damn, so why did I go to all that trouble in WoL??" taste in my mouth. But, I was not really expecting that much depth...
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On March 17 2013 01:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 01:37 Nightshade_ wrote:On March 15 2013 07:35 Phay wrote:
Kerrigan: A drone? Do you know what could happen if I take control of a Zerg??
Valerian: I know, I know, but we are in a very controlled environment.
Now, build a hatchery
Now, build a spawning pool!
<facepalm> that got me, they were TRYING to do the tutorial to zerg, but really couldn't due to the story Hell, they could've just gone the way of SC's Zerg tutorial; have someone try to walk Kerrigan through controlling Zerg once you get to the actual Zerg missions while she yells at them for treating her like she doesn't know what she's doing.
If they'd done that, there would be a swarm of angry nerds complaining that Blizzard have no creativity and that the tutorial didn't satisfy their superior intellect's need for storytelling.
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SC1's Zerg tutorial was magical. I was more impressionable then, but I still can recall Daggoth word for word:
"The Hatchery is the heart of any Zerg colony. It spontaneously generates larva, which in turn are used to spawn your various warriors and minions."
Was somewhat annoyed to have a damn adjutant do the tutorial in HotS.
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On March 17 2013 01:57 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 01:49 UBavarice wrote:
The main arguments from people who "enjoyed" the HotS story seem to be either:
"Well, what do you expect? All video game stories suck. Just sit back and 'enjoy' it".
or
"There is no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to story so there is no reason to debate it".
All this does is dodging actually having a conversation about the quality of the story-telling and writing. What's so intimidating about agreeing on some objective grounds for what's good/bad about a story and having a real discussion about it? I'm not really sure where I stand on this. I don't think I really qualify to judge story writing or anything. All I know is that I played it through, and for the time I was playing it, I enjoyed it. I dislike how short it seemed, and I wanted more Protoss/Zeratul story in there as well as more development to Raynor/Sarah's relationship.
I mean I also enjoyed playing it, don't get me wrong. However, I think they could've gotten a lot more out of the story than they did.
For example, a character as complex, mysterious and interesting as Duran/Nerud. I can't believe how quickly they just sped through his demise with no creative or immersive dialouge between the two whatsoever. The fact that Duran posed as Kerrigan's most trusted lieutenant throughout the BW zerg campaign was never even mentioned. I mean what the hell!?
EDIT: And Duran's relationship with Stukov? They barely mentioned this either. The ominous, slippery and cunning Duran from the original SC was turned into a stereotypical, under-developed 'bad guy' in SC2. So disappointing.
You have to be able to discuss some of these things, I think. Why avoid it?
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What I didn't get: how can there be any zerg on a planet the overmind was a short time ago? It is also stated that it took 60 years to travel to the terran sector, which leaves the question why the zerg on the planet just developed backwards (no hive connection)? It's highly unlikely that the overmind travels away and lets some zerg stay without any guidance (zerebrat), So where do primal zerg come from?
If I remember correctly, the zerg were created as a 'low' level species on an individual level, basically meaning they don't have a free will without the guidance of the overmind (or similar). It is not a matter of 'persuading' zerg to follow. It's a matter of pure psionic power. Zerg are physically unable to resist a call to arms by the leader of the swarm (or the 'broodcontroller') and they were designed that way (though some broods seem to be hardwired to a leader, the cerebrates were entirely unable to resist the will of an overmind, even the powerfull Kerrigan could not withstand his control. In HotS, the concept is killed by primal zerg and rebelling broodmothers, suggesting that the zerg are designed like a primitive society (leadership through intimidation) instead of leadership through hard-wired hierachy (originally intended as an approach to creating a society that lacks the ability to have civil wars, while primal zerg and even the swarm seem to be built on it in HotS)
any ideas?
Also: I dont remember entirely but didn't the overmind kill the xel'naga while they were observing the swarm?
They even took heavy losses during the conflict with their firstborn.
and in Hots they 'truly can tear worlds apart'
does not make much sense?
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On March 17 2013 01:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 00:42 Daniri wrote:On March 17 2013 00:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 17 2013 00:16 Daniri wrote:On March 17 2013 00:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 16 2013 23:44 Daniri wrote:
Stratos, I notice you have Oblivion as your profile pic. Did you know, as I'm sure you might, Cyrodiil was once entirely a jungle but when they went to make Oblivion they decided that would look boring and waved the CHIM hand to change the climate? These things happen all the time, and while they shouldn't, it's a really minor thing to latch onto. Zerus made up a significant portion of the campaign and ties together a lot of the (terribly written) plot points, so no, it isn't that minor. My response to you was very specific and has nothing to do with what you just said. Yes, it does. You said that yes, retconning sucks, but Zerus's was minor, so it's not that big of a deal. I directly refuted your claim that it was a minor plot point. The specific change of Zerus's appearance was minor, and it isn't that big deal, yes. Any other problems you had about went on on Zerus is beside the point. Including the "lifeless" retcon, which was a much more significant one. Though I'd like to know all of what your problems were, as the only one I had was Zurvan saying Amon alone created the Overmind. He either has to be mistaken or that's a ridiculous retcon. You're splitting hairs for the sake of trying to be right without any real substance. Separating "Zerus is a volcanic, lifeless planet" from the rest of the problems with Zerus and the Feral Zerg retcon is meaningless. They all go together. Zerus being a volcanic and lifeless planet means that the entire idea of Feral Zerg is a complete retcon and is inconsistent with previous lore. Feral Zerg played an important role in the story (giving Kerrigan a means of re-infesting herself, finding out about Amon, continuing to retcon the Zerg's past). Edit: In fact, if you read the manual, it says that the Overmind's trip to Terran space took 60 years. He left a lifeless, volcanic husk and in a little over 60 years it's all of a sudden a lush jungle world with hyper-evolved, intelligent living species on it?
Where does it state the time from when they he left Zerus to the time where he got to the terrans 60 years passed? It only says the journey took 60 years, nothing more. No specific time frame when the overmind decided to travel.
Also you're making points on a 12 year old manual where there's only a short summary of random shit happening.
If 60 years really passed, then xelnaga aren't really ancient. Either it was more than 60 years(duh) or "ancient" means something else in the SC world.
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When it was said in WoL that the Overmind was corrupted it wasn't a retcon, it was an expansion of lore, however good or bad.
No, it was definitely a retcon. Zeratul touched minds with the Overmind and looked at its origins in SC1, and none of this mental imprisonment nonsense was mentioned.
If I remember correctly, during the Zerus missions, if you talked to Abathur he tells Kerrigan his concerns about how the beasts on Zerus have already assimilated the essences of the zerg, and thus have been able to replicate their units on the battlefield. It makes sense considering how the primal zerg operate (acquiring the essence of other beings).
It actually makes no sense considering how primal zerg operate. They lack a hive mind, so how exactly did they "steal" the essence of creatures on planets over thousands of light-years away? This entire "primal zerg" concept is ill-inconceived.
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Well, I am right, aren't I? You wouldn't know that, I suppose, as you still don't understand the very small point I was making. Cyrodiil was changed from a jungle, Zerus was changed to a jungle. It happens all the time. Going on about the manual, climate, dinosaurs and the millions of years it takes for the various stages of planetary formation is what's meaningless.
The points about dinosaurs/time span and the manual are both very important, because it explains that it isn't plausible for a volcanic (a climate not as conducive to a thriving set of life that a jungle is), lifeless world to transform into a jungle that is capable of supporting intelligent, flourishing life in the time span allotted. What you're trying to do is say that the volcanic part being retconned isn't a big deal; sure, it isn't, but to separate that point from the greater point has literally no purpose and brings nothing to the discussion. By doing that, it just shows that you're trying to be an obnoxious snob that wants to be right about something, even if you can't be right about anything that matters.
Why are you calling primal zerg feral zerg? Anyway, Zerus being volcanic has nothing to do with the primal zerg. There could be primal zerg even if it was volcanic. Lifeless is the retcon that matters there. If you didn't like the primal zerg I can certainly see why you would fixate on it.
Yes yes, my bad in mixing up the two terms. It has no bearing on my points though.
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On March 17 2013 02:59 Gradius wrote:Show nested quote +When it was said in WoL that the Overmind was corrupted it wasn't a retcon, it was an expansion of lore, however good or bad. No, it was definitely a retcon. Zeratul touched minds with the Overmind and looked at its origins in SC1, and none of this mental imprisonment nonsense was mentioned. Show nested quote +If I remember correctly, during the Zerus missions, if you talked to Abathur he tells Kerrigan his concerns about how the beasts on Zerus have already assimilated the essences of the zerg, and thus have been able to replicate their units on the battlefield. It makes sense considering how the primal zerg operate (acquiring the essence of other beings). It actually makes no sense considering how primal zerg operate. They lack a hive mind, so how exactly did they "steal" the essence of creatures on planets over thousands of light-years away? This entire "primal zerg" concept is ill-inconceived.
Nothing was mentioned about the numerous species the Overmind knew, or the knowledge it possessed of Xel'naga either, lack of information doesn't necessarily mean retcon. Zeratul after all only mentions a part of what he gained from touching with the Overmind's mind.
What does hive-mind have to do with the assimilation of species? Which creatures do you talk about?
The ones you see in the in-game mission(which for the purpose of lore shouldn't even be looked at) are "stolen" from Kerrigan when she lands on Zerus, Abathur mentions this and is kinda surprised by how fast they did it.
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On March 17 2013 03:05 Andr3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 02:59 Gradius wrote:When it was said in WoL that the Overmind was corrupted it wasn't a retcon, it was an expansion of lore, however good or bad. No, it was definitely a retcon. Zeratul touched minds with the Overmind and looked at its origins in SC1, and none of this mental imprisonment nonsense was mentioned. If I remember correctly, during the Zerus missions, if you talked to Abathur he tells Kerrigan his concerns about how the beasts on Zerus have already assimilated the essences of the zerg, and thus have been able to replicate their units on the battlefield. It makes sense considering how the primal zerg operate (acquiring the essence of other beings). It actually makes no sense considering how primal zerg operate. They lack a hive mind, so how exactly did they "steal" the essence of creatures on planets over thousands of light-years away? This entire "primal zerg" concept is ill-inconceived. Nothing was mentioned about the numerous species the Overmind knew, or the knowledge it possessed of Xel'naga either, lack of information doesn't necessarily mean retcon. Zeratul after all only mentions a part of what he gained from touching with the Overmind's mind. What does hive-mind have to do with the assimilation of species? Which creatures do you talk about? The ones you see in the in-game mission(which for the purpose of lore shouldn't even be looked at) are "stolen" from Kerrigan when she lands on Zerus, Abathur mentions this and is kinda surprised by how fast they did it.
The problem is that, according to the campaign, when Primal Zerg steal essence, an individual incorporates the essence and mutates with it. They don't operate as a unified mind (contrary to the original SC manual), and so they don't have a way or motivation to spread essence among them. How do the Primal Zerg then steal the essence of Roaches/Hydras and produce them in mass numbers? This would require a massive number of Primal Zerg all killing normal Zerg individually and mutating individually. It's just lazy and poorly done.
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On March 17 2013 03:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:
By doing that, it just shows that you're trying to be an obnoxious snob that wants to be right about something, even if you can't be right about anything that matters.
Look, I told you right away my point wasn't what you thought it was. And I told you repeatedly that it was a small point. That you now want to criticize me for your reading comprehension failure is quite amusing.
If you want to talk about something more substantive, why don't you respond to my response to your claim that Abathur disregarding humans is a retcon?
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EPT
