EPTBut I really enjoied the Storymode as usal great cgi great atmosphere
[Story spoilers!!] Heart of the HOTS continued - Page 25
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CarlosOmse
Germany507 Posts
But I really enjoied the Storymode as usal great cgi great atmosphere | ||
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Baalthersar
Germany239 Posts
Why do some assume that one characters sentence, spoken in rage after a tragic event defines his life to end of time even when the character gets new informations, has years to ponder about the situation and the situation changes. A characters decision is made by his viewpoint, knowledge and emotional state. Not by the "Observers/Players". And many interpret the information before the whole sc2 story is told. I liked the Story and was entertained. I thought the character progression was ok. The cinamatics were great. I would have liked if it was longer. But I think it was Browder in an Interview who said that they looked at the WoL Campaign Data and that resulted in making this one shorter and easier/more accessibel. | ||
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Greenwizard
48 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Thing 1: It's pretty funny that you don't want to use the term "retcon" and then proceed to use it repeatedly, including in three separate definitions. Thing 2: For someone who doesn't find my opinions worth commenting on, you certainly spent a lot of time digging through my posts to find all the things I wrote you disagree with. I'm almost flattered. Thing 3: The actual question you had is confusing with all the disjointedness of your post, but I'll take a stab at it. "How can you in good conscience continue to argue that the whole idea of the "Primal Zerg" doesn't rewrite everything we've come to know about the history of the Zerg race..." Because we lacked the full spectrum of the lore behind them to start with? I'm sorry, was there a Tolkien-esque, leather bound volume written about the complete history of the Zerg that I'm not aware of, or are you going off of the info we had from SC1/BW that basically amounts to a paragraph worth of description, and using that as the entire and complete origin of the race? If fleshing out a history of an aspect of a story is your description of the term "retcon" (which it really seems to be), then doing so would practically never be allowed in fiction. However, it happens all the time in the works of some excellent writers. (The Hobbit, anyone?). Zerus was (and this is explicitly pulled from the first manual) a lifeless, volcanic planet. The original Zerg were tiny parasitic entities with no personality, no giant beasts that thought the Zerg were "corrupt". This is the definition of a retcon. Were any of the discrepancies explained? No? Definition of a retcon. "...or that the "Amon's taint" plotline is a good explanation for Kerrigan's character progression and not a retcon." They were already going in this direction at the end of Brood War. Did you think they didn't have ideas for who Duran worked for? Did you think they didn't already know where they wanted to take the story? Did you not expect that there was going to be a bigger, badder villain out there for them to focus on in Starcraft 2? I know I did, and I was freaking 12 when I played the game, so I'd hope you picked up on that when you played it. People are screaming and yelling bloody murder about this in this thread, when in reality, I would bet that this is very much the story they wanted to tell from the end of Brood War. The setup was already there for it. First, it is incredibly obvious that the SC2 story is different than the original writers intended. 1) Almost all of the original writers/designers are gone. The staff that made this piece of shit is very different, aside from Metzen. 2) It was released 12 years after the first one, giving the team plenty of time to change it/forget it. 3) Metzen has repeatedly said in recent interviews that he likes how the story "focuses on two individuals in a massive conflict". There was NOTHING hinting at this type of writing focus in SC/BW. It's is obvious that they did not have SC2 fleshed out at all after BW and saying otherwise is being willfully deluded. Seriously, you sound like a Youth Earth Creationist that refuses to admit evidence against your point. Finally, yes, there are hints at a "greater being" out there in BW, but there are no hints of the horrific explanation of the Overmind or of Kerrigan's character that makes the Zerg seem all lovey-dovey by copy/pasting the Orc storyline from WC3. Lauriel is right. None of these are retcons. On the primal zerg, there was nothing revealed that directly contradicted previously established continuity. The closest would be the retcon that Zerus was a volcanic world, now it's a lush jungle. But maybe different parts of the planet have different environments. In SC1 it was explained the zerg were created without an Overmind at first, so they were free before the creation of the Overmind. There's no retcon here. On Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades being different from pre-infestation Kerrigan and Amon's corruption, this also doesn't directly contradict previous continuity. In SC1, Kerrigan clearly says that she likes who she has become and is in full control. It obviously implied that she has free will as the Queen of Blades. But in SC2, it's reveal that she didn't: that Sarah Kerrigan is a separate personality from the Queen of Blades. But this isn't a retcon, because she could have said those things due to not having free will and because of Amon's corruption. On this point, it's awful storytelling. It clearly goes against the original storywriter's intent that Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades had free will, that the Queen of Blades is precisely Sarah Kerrigan. But it's not a contradiction. It's taking the story in lame direction, completely destroying the character that was built up in SC1. So you can argue that is bad, because it is, but it's not a a recton. They should have kept Sarah Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades, a powerful and evil villainess, that enjoys by her own free will, being powerful and evil Zerus is a retcon because the world was a "volatile ash world...[that was] lifeless and burning" when they left it. The Zerg were parasitic entities that had no personality. They "grew to resemble a terrifyingly ravenous and unified race" before the Overmind was created. The idea that the Zerg are "corrupt" completely contradicts the entire dichotomy of Protoss and Zerg: that the Zerg are purity of essence. Furthermore, the idea that Zerus could've went from burning lifeless world to lush jungle world in the time span is simply ridiculous. That shit takes a long time. The first dinosaurs showed up on earth two hundred-thirty million years ago. That's already a lot more than what was mentioned in the manual and Earth's climate hasn't changed from lifeless, volcanic world to life-promoting inhabitable planet, not even close. According to the original manual, the Xel'Naga ruled the galaxy, "tens of millions" of years ago, and spent a very, very long time developing the Protoss; it took thousands of years for advanced Protoss civilization to spread across Aiur. That leaves the Xel'Naga with less than "tens of millions of years ago" to create the Zerg, and tens of millions is already way less than necessary for a planet's climate to completely change like that. Other retcons: Abathur says that human essence isn't really useful. However, the entire first conflict when Zerg started invading Chau and Mar Sara is predicated on the fact that it is extremely useful because it can give the Zerg psionic powers. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 16 2013 21:00 Baalthersar wrote: Funny this discussion reminds me of the "is fallout 3 even a fallout game" discussion. Why do some assume that one characters sentence, spoken in rage after a tragic event defines his life to end of time even when the character gets new informations, has years to ponder about the situation and the situation changes. A characters decision is made by his viewpoint, knowledge and emotional state. Not by the "Observers/Players". And many interpret the information before the whole sc2 story is told. I liked the Story and was entertained. I thought the character progression was ok. The cinamatics were great. I would have liked if it was longer. But I think it was Browder in an Interview who said that they looked at the WoL Campaign Data and that resulted in making this one shorter and easier/more accessibel. Because it was the fucking climax of the story arc in Brood War. Hell, even then, it can be changed, but it needs to be done plausibly. Blizzard just forgot about it and changed Raynor's character out of the blue. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
What was amazing however, was the side-character dialogue and that incredible ending cinematic (which IMO is Blizzard's best to date). | ||
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Daniri
387 Posts
On March 16 2013 22:53 Stratos_speAr wrote: Abathur says that human essence isn't really useful. However, the entire first conflict when Zerg started invading Chau and Mar Sara is predicated on the fact that it is extremely useful because it can give the Zerg psionic powers. Yeah, and when Kerrigan pointed out she was human Abathur said psionic individuals are the exception. I'm pretty sure that was the same conversation you got this from. | ||
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Daniri
387 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 16 2013 23:44 Daniri wrote: Stratos, I notice you have Oblivion as your profile pic. Did you know, as I'm sure you might, Cyrodiil was once entirely a jungle but when they went to make Oblivion they decided that would look boring and waved the CHIM hand to change the climate? These things happen all the time, and while they shouldn't, it's a really minor thing to latch onto. Zerus made up a significant portion of the campaign and ties together a lot of the (terribly written) plot points, so no, it isn't that minor. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On March 16 2013 23:23 fearus wrote: We are spoilt, you guys clearly haven't experienced the D3 storyline... it makes HoTS look like an Pulitzer prize winner. This man speaks truth. | ||
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Daniri
387 Posts
On March 17 2013 00:10 Stratos_speAr wrote: Zerus made up a significant portion of the campaign and ties together a lot of the (terribly written) plot points, so no, it isn't that minor. My response to you was very specific and has nothing to do with what you just said. | ||
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Altsa
Finland990 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 17 2013 00:16 Daniri wrote: My response to you was very specific and has nothing to do with what you just said. Yes, it does. You said that yes, retconning sucks, but Zerus's was minor, so it's not that big of a deal. I directly refuted your claim that it was a minor plot point. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
Blizzard did a lot of advertisement about their campaign, they said a lot of things about how HotS will be better than WoL and how the plot is based around the emotions of the main characters, how Kerrigan tries to understand the Zerg, how she is torn apart by guild of her using Zerg to rid the world of couple billion of people. I had my hopes up to have a good plot that will keep me entertained for a few re-runs of the campaign. What I got was a result of 11 year old's literature abortion styled around "how I spent my summer". Storyline can be summed up in about ten sentences. Voice acting for Kerrigan was horrible, the emotional depth in both writing and acting is non-existant. | ||
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Daniri
387 Posts
On March 17 2013 00:29 Stratos_speAr wrote: Yes, it does. You said that yes, retconning sucks, but Zerus's was minor, so it's not that big of a deal. I directly refuted your claim that it was a minor plot point. The specific change of Zerus's appearance was minor, and it isn't that big deal, yes. Any other problems you had about went on on Zerus is beside the point. Including the "lifeless" retcon, which was a much more significant one. Though I'd like to know all of what your problems were, as the only one I had was Zurvan saying Amon alone created the Overmind. He either has to be mistaken or that's a ridiculous retcon. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On March 16 2013 20:35 NEEDZMOAR wrote: the story isnt about a video game the story is about the starcraft universe. if you dont like fantasy, why are you giving a shit about the sc2 story anyway? Starcraft is sci-fi, not fantasy. Sort of. Well, it was. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
I will flat out admit, I found Brood War's storyline lacking as well but the Original SC1 was very good for a space war opera. Characters developed through action rather than dialogue. You felt connected and understanding to every single character because it made sense given their setting. On top of that, you had some epic moments of awesome that felt a lot more natural. For example, compare the speech before the final battle of SC1 to WoL and HotS. SC1's ending speech was from someone who represented a government that wanted to KILL you (and even before that was a great prelude of discussion between your council members) while WoL and HotS had the generic feel good speech given by the leader of whatever group it was. In addition, the war in Starcraft 1 was not romanticized with "Generic tough guy Black dude", "Rebel with an Army who does what it takes" and Kerrigan (which I'll touch upon later). The bulk of SC1 had you working for the Confederacy, Mengsk, Raynor, the Overmind, Kerrigan, the Protoss Conclave, Fenix, Tassadar and Zeratul and it was great because you saw all their viewpoints and their stake in the battles upcoming. And heck I loved the Terran troop portrayal because the chaff felt and looked like chaff while Dugalle with his battlecruiser is a stark contrast. Kerrigan the protagonist literally fell from the trope'r'us tree and hit every single branch on the way. Gone was a warrior queen who turned out to be cunning, corrupted and LIKED the new found role of hers. Instead, we have a love interest who basically aligns to her human side simply because her man despite the fact that she has godlike powers and is supposed to be the savior of the universe. On top of that, let's not forget the damsel to distress element she's repeatedly prone to EVEN DURING THE ENDING! Note these are all things, I disliked about HotS. It might be some people's flavor just as how some will argue Michael Bay's Transformers is the best adaption ever but it's certainly not mine. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
On March 17 2013 00:37 Andr3 wrote: Don't you learn in one of the Zerus missions that the planet changed over a period of thousands of years? I thought the whole planet was infested? Then the Overmind moved to Char and we begin the SC1 story (which was only a few years ago). I do believe HotS had some cool moments in it. The protoss woman screaming to her people not to bring her back was pretty sweet. Ok I can't actually think of anything else right now except a few Abathur lines. Maybe I'll have to retract my statement. | ||
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