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On March 15 2013 13:04 Akusta wrote:Show nested quote + Are you seriously suggesting that David Kims job would be on the line had it become known that he was a master player? Besides, if you think about it, telling lies to the public will get you in more trouble than not being GM, even as a game balancer. Yes because grand masters will 99% of the time beat regular masters unless they are roughly on the GM border. As a mid master I can tell you this from experience as I have a hard time achieving a 50% win rate at my own level. Let alone even ever meeting a GM...... http://sc2ranks.com/us/2833778/AkusTaTherefore, depending on what kind of regular master player David Kim is, if he even is a master... I might be able to beat him as the skill curve is exponential. Master and GM make a HUGE difference. And we have players who spend every day playing the game who sometimes don't achieve GM, let alone all 3 races.. Wouldn't that be pathetic if regular players who are not professional could beat the game developer? He must lie. It is impossible to be professional tier at all 3 races. And IF he is GM, he cheesed his way there with no understanding for the game, if he didn't have someone place the account there for him. There is no 100% proof that he does his job unless he actually plays and allows us to see him. Which is definitely not the case. David Kim without a doubt would be crushed by ANY professional now days. His mechanics have most likely fell behind in the never ending race of improvement. Beta ranking has no relation to todays rankings. We have professionals that have fallen out unable to keep up with the best. Latest example, Jinro. Jinro would still mop the floor with me 99% of the time. Even if I'm mid master.. AND even if [David Kim] was grandmaster.. Grandmasters are mopped away by professionals. The only people credible for balancing the game FAIRLY are the very best players with a vote and voice from every race. But this will never happen. Additionally, nobody has found his "korean ID" yet. Who is this invisible team of developers David Kim talks about? Why aren't our professionals asked for their opinions? They know best don't they?
What a trash post...
You have at least 50% winrate no matter what. You can't have "a hard time achieving" it. How hardcore you want to play is up to you.
Wouldn't that be pathetic if regular players who are not professional could beat the game developer?
What the fuck are you talking about... You probably forgot a negation or something, but yeah, players are supposed to beat game developers. It has always been the case, in all games.
He must lie. It is impossible to be professional tier at all 3 races.
AND even if [David Kim] was grandmaster.. Grandmasters are mopped away by professionals.
You make it sound like David Kim being GM would make him professional level, then 3 sentences later say that GMs are "mopped away by professionals".
David Kim without a doubt would be crushed by ANY professional now days.
No shit Sherlock. David Kim is not a professional player, he's being paid as a Blizzard employee remember? And afaik, there is no professional player that would lose to amateurs (barring extremely skilled and talented ones who could go pro anyway but have something else to do). You don't pay or sponsor someone if they're bad. Professional players who have "fallen out" are not professional anymore, that's how it works.
The only people credible for balancing the game FAIRLY are the very best players with a vote and voice from every race.
Again, no. Bolding and caps locking doesn't make it more right.
Why aren't our professionals asked for their opinions?
They are, in fact, Blizzard has a special forum for pros, and David Kim often discusses directly with pros.
Now, the worst of all:
There is no 100% proof that he does his job unless he actually plays
His fucking job is not to play the game, and certainly not as a professional (because that would be in essence absurd). He's there to design a game, make sure it's enjoyable to play for everyone (not only good players), and try to make it so that it's as balanced as possible. His ladder rank doesn't put his job on the line, ultimately the overall SC2 gameplay is. If it's good, he's doing a good job, if it's bad, he's not, and he could be GSL champion for all I care, it wouldn't change that.
Of course, being a decent player and getting feedback from pros does help his job, but he should not being judged for it.
Your only redeeming quality is that you're a decent master Terran, props to you for that.
Edit:
I understand he has a full time job [and that is why he should not be the one dealing with balance]
David Kim's job is "Game Balance Designer". You are ridiculous, you think he sells apples on the market or something?
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On March 15 2013 14:14 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 13:04 Akusta wrote: Are you seriously suggesting that David Kims job would be on the line had it become known that he was a master player? Besides, if you think about it, telling lies to the public will get you in more trouble than not being GM, even as a game balancer. Yes because grand masters will 99% of the time beat regular masters unless they are roughly on the GM border. As a mid master I can tell you this from experience as I have a hard time achieving a 50% win rate at my own level. Let alone even ever meeting a GM...... http://sc2ranks.com/us/2833778/AkusTaTherefore, depending on what kind of regular master player David Kim is, if he even is a master... I might be able to beat him as the skill curve is exponential. Master and GM make a HUGE difference. And we have players who spend every day playing the game who sometimes don't achieve GM, let alone all 3 races.. Wouldn't that be pathetic if regular players who are not professional could beat the game developer? He must lie. It is impossible to be professional tier at all 3 races. And IF he is GM, he cheesed his way there with no understanding for the game, if he didn't have someone place the account there for him. There is no 100% proof that he does his job unless he actually plays and allows us to see him. Which is definitely not the case. David Kim without a doubt would be crushed by ANY professional now days. His mechanics have most likely fell behind in the never ending race of improvement. Beta ranking has no relation to todays rankings. We have professionals that have fallen out unable to keep up with the best. Latest example, Jinro. Jinro would still mop the floor with me 99% of the time. Even if I'm mid master.. AND even if [David Kim] was grandmaster.. Grandmasters are mopped away by professionals. The only people credible for balancing the game FAIRLY are the very best players with a vote and voice from every race. But this will never happen. Additionally, nobody has found his "korean ID" yet. Who is this invisible team of developers David Kim talks about? Why aren't our professionals asked for their opinions? They know best don't they? What a trash post... You have at least 50% winrate no matter what. You can't have "a hard time achieving" it. How hardcore you want to play is up to you. Show nested quote +Wouldn't that be pathetic if regular players who are not professional could beat the game developer? What the fuck are you talking about... You probably forgot a negation or something, but yeah, players are supposed to beat game developers. It has always been the case, in all games. Show nested quote +AND even if [David Kim] was grandmaster.. Grandmasters are mopped away by professionals. You make it sound like David Kim being GM would make him professional level, then 3 sentences later say that GMs are "mopped away by professionals". No shit Sherlock. David Kim is not a professional player, he's being paid as a Blizzard employee remember? And afaik, there is no professional player that would lose to amateurs (barring extremely skilled and talented ones who could go pro anyway but have something else to do). You don't pay or sponsor someone if they're bad. Professional players who have "fallen out" are not professional anymore, that's how it works. Show nested quote +The only people credible for balancing the game FAIRLY are the very best players with a vote and voice from every race. Again, no. Bolding and caps locking doesn't make it more right. They are, in fact, Blizzard has a special forum for pros, and David Kim often discusses directly with pros. Now, the worst of all: His fucking job is not to play the game, and certainly not as a professional (because that would be in essence absurd). He's there to design a game, make sure it's enjoyable to play for everyone (not only good players), and try to make it so that it's as balanced as possible. His ladder rank doesn't put his job on the line, ultimately the overall SC2 gameplay is. If it's good, he's doing a good job, if it's bad, he's not, and he could be GSL champion for all I care, it wouldn't change that. Of course, being a decent player and getting feedback from pros does help his job, but he should not being judged for it. Your only redeeming quality is that you're a decent master Terran, props to you for that. Edit: Show nested quote +I understand he has a full time job [and that is why he should not be the one dealing with balance] David Kim's job is "Game Balance Designer". You are ridiculous, you think he sells apples on the market or something?
Nicely summarized.
It hurts my head how dumb people are if they think that you have to be a top pro to balance the game. Most pros would be terrible game designers / balancers.
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Again, no. Bolding and caps locking doesn't make it more right. Pointing out that "Bolding and caps locking doesn't make it more right" (neither was that the intention as you assumed, but rather to put more focus on fairness.) does not refute my point that professionals are more credible to balance the game than he is. All of your other points are sensible in that, yes he is an employee and his job is not to play, because yes, it is out of his capability. The point I was trying to prove is that "professionals are more credible to balance the game than he is." But we do not see transparency as an obvious thing. We do not see the results of the input of professional players as the results of our balances. We only see the changes, and nothing more. If you could direct me to this special forum that might show transparency, I'd agree with your argument completely. The most common justification I've seen so far for his position however is his own statement of "GM in all 3 races." and just people saying whatever they want to say without concise proof. Additionally, you cannot completely understand a game if you do not play it.. This fact becomes more relevant as you become better because mechanics and the human limit is mostly understood by the actual players, and real strategy is only seen by the actual players due to their shifting focus based on the human capacity for attention which also changes as you start intuitively feeling the game, which leads to new understanding. David Kim balancing the game is like our guys in congress trying to fix ALLL the problems without actually seeing the local conditions.
User was warned for derailing
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On March 15 2013 14:32 Akusta wrote: Pointing out that " Bolding and caps locking doesn't make it more right" (neither was that the intention as you assumed, but rather to put more focus on fairness.) does not refute my point that professionals are more credible to balance the game than he is. All of your other points are sensible in that, yes he is an employee and his job is not to play, because yes, it is out of his capability. The point I was trying to prove is that "professionals are more credible to balance the game than he is." But we do not see transparency as an obvious thing. We do not see the results of the input of professional players as the results of our balances. We only see the changes, and nothing more. If you could direct me to this special forum that might show transparency, I'd agree with your argument completely. The most common justification I've seen so far for his position however is his own statement of "GM in all 3 races." and just people saying whatever they want to say without concise proof.
Do you want David Kim to be like "Oh yeah, MC said Protoss should get insta-nukes, and after lots of testing, we agreed with this and added that in!"
??
I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here.
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I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here.
David Kim does not have the competence to understand the game at the same capacity at which the professionals do.
Oh yeah, MC said Protoss should get insta-nukes
That is obvious imbalance and that's his job to prevent. But Professionals are more credible. I must go to school in the morning. Goodnight all. 
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On March 15 2013 14:24 BuddhaMonk wrote:
It hurts my head how dumb people are if they think that you have to be a top pro to balance the game. Most pros would be terrible game designers / balancers.
I'm just going to quote this for truth.
If you let professional basketball players balance basketball, Dwayne Wade would ban hand-checking and Dwight Howard would ban zone defences.
'Professionals' in any field mask their biases and self-interest with false objectivity. If IdrA was Protoss, I'm sure he could construct a thoughtful, coherent 15 minute defense of Skytoss and explain why it is balanced.
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All the things about "power at low league vs high league" really shows that there are some things badly wrong with the game. That was kinda obvious from the beginning and sadly they dont want to fix those things. Not smart.
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David Kim does not have the competence to understand the game at the same capacity at which the professionals do.
I would actually agree with that. Indeed, David Kim probably doesn't know how the game is optimally played as well as professionals. However you must not confuse "gameplay skill" (physical speed, decision making, metagame, micro etc...) with "game design" skill.
David Kim is paid to create a good game for every race, in short, to ensure that everyone (including professionals) is having fun and showing interesting gameplay, each at their own level. You don't need to be #1 GM to be good at this. I would even say that it would make you biased and forget about 90% of Starcraft player base.
I think Blizzard current approach to balance is fine:
1) They have an initial game version.
2) They look at what is being done in all leagues, and especially at the pro level, for some months. How are the winrates? How is the gameplay (too stale, too rushy, too volatile etc..)? Are some units too glaringly strong? Does a race have to do the same exact build every time in order to stay alive or kill another race before the late game is reached? Is there a build that is unstoppable? How are the maps factoring in all this? Etc etc, I'm sure I'm missing elements. But note that Blizzard has talked frequently about these, however critical we want to be.
3) With their intuition, skill and experience as game designers, and some pro feedback, they propose some changes.
4) Test them, internally, on PTR servers, etc...
5) Put out a patch, and go to 1) to close the cycle.
I don't see how that would not eventually work if they're doing their job, and it doesn't require that they are all GM gosus.
However, I think they have a tendency to not want to revert changes, no matter bad they turned out to be :p.
And I wouldn't read too much into David Kim claiming he's GM level in all 3 races. He's probably at least high masters and has been official GM in the past, that's good enough. Remember that Day9 also claimed that he was at some point GM level for all races...
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Things I don't like.
>The game globally balanced, I repeat, the game is globally balanced.
Game shouldn't be balanced around lower levels of play in sea/NA. It should be balanced around top KR.
>To my big surprise, all the statistics indicate that the Oracle deserve a slight buff at high level. According to David, the choice to open Oracle is very engaging for a Protoss gas wise. With this strategy, no fast +2 from the Forge (it is thus less versatile than the Twilight Counsel way) and is often hard to make profitable at high level. Knowing that, buffing the unit would provoke the anger of player from low division, due to the fact that they do not often know how to defend against the various proxy Oracles cheeses.
Once again, why are they balancing for bronze >.>
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On March 15 2013 15:45 Misacampo wrote:
>To my big surprise, all the statistics indicate that the Oracle deserve a slight buff at high level. According to David, the choice to open Oracle is very engaging for a Protoss gas wise. With this strategy, no fast +2 from the Forge (it is thus less versatile than the Twilight Counsel way) and is often hard to make profitable at high level. Knowing that, buffing the unit would provoke the anger of player from low division, due to the fact that they do not often know how to defend against the various proxy Oracles cheeses.
Once again, why are they balancing for bronze >.>
You do realize this paragraph mentions that he thinks the unit needs a buff for top level play right?
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On March 15 2013 15:45 Misacampo wrote:
Things I don't like.
>The game globally balanced, I repeat, the game is globally balanced.
Game shouldn't be balanced around lower levels of play in sea/NA. It should be balanced around top KR.
>To my big surprise, all the statistics indicate that the Oracle deserve a slight buff at high level. According to David, the choice to open Oracle is very engaging for a Protoss gas wise. With this strategy, no fast +2 from the Forge (it is thus less versatile than the Twilight Counsel way) and is often hard to make profitable at high level. Knowing that, buffing the unit would provoke the anger of player from low division, due to the fact that they do not often know how to defend against the various proxy Oracles cheeses.
Once again, why are they balancing for bronze >.>
Once again, professional, Grandmaster players from Korea only account for 200 - 500 people, out of the millions of existing players, and millions more potential users and spectators.
Making the game only fun or playable for the handful of professional diehard nerds that play it 50+ hours a week is like eSports getting a Born to Lose tattoo on it's forehead.
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I'm a little tickled that he took the time to mention that hellbats are fine without even commenting on medivacs.
Good interview though. Most of what he says makes a lot of sense, actually. I wouldn't mind a little more umph behind the ultralisks, from the protoss perspective. Ultras make for fun games. And yeah, sadly, GGrays can't keep giving me free wins forever 
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is it just me or was this article incredibly hard to read/follow/understand who was saying what
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On March 15 2013 15:53 Tpyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 15:45 Misacampo wrote:
>To my big surprise, all the statistics indicate that the Oracle deserve a slight buff at high level. According to David, the choice to open Oracle is very engaging for a Protoss gas wise. With this strategy, no fast +2 from the Forge (it is thus less versatile than the Twilight Counsel way) and is often hard to make profitable at high level. Knowing that, buffing the unit would provoke the anger of player from low division, due to the fact that they do not often know how to defend against the various proxy Oracles cheeses.
Once again, why are they balancing for bronze >.> You do realize this paragraph mentions that he thinks the unit needs a buff for top level play right?
yes but he's saying he doesn't want to do it because it makes low level players sad
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On March 15 2013 14:50 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 14:24 BuddhaMonk wrote:
It hurts my head how dumb people are if they think that you have to be a top pro to balance the game. Most pros would be terrible game designers / balancers.
'Professionals' in any field mask their biases and self-interest with false objectivity. If IdrA was Protoss, I'm sure he could construct a thoughtful, coherent 15 minute defense of Skytoss and explain why it is balanced.
This is what we call a faulty assumption. If IdrA retained his skill but was being paid to design the game then I can assure that he would eliminate any conscious bias.
It's undeniable that professionals understand the game better than plat random players like Browder, however playing at a professional level does not = biased. Idra is biased because that's how he vents in casual form, but it has nothing to do with his skill level.
On March 15 2013 15:54 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 15:45 Misacampo wrote:
Things I don't like.
>The game globally balanced, I repeat, the game is globally balanced.
Game shouldn't be balanced around lower levels of play in sea/NA. It should be balanced around top KR.
>To my big surprise, all the statistics indicate that the Oracle deserve a slight buff at high level. According to David, the choice to open Oracle is very engaging for a Protoss gas wise. With this strategy, no fast +2 from the Forge (it is thus less versatile than the Twilight Counsel way) and is often hard to make profitable at high level. Knowing that, buffing the unit would provoke the anger of player from low division, due to the fact that they do not often know how to defend against the various proxy Oracles cheeses.
Once again, why are they balancing for bronze >.> Once again, professional, Grandmaster players from Korea only account for 200 - 500 people, out of the millions of existing players, and millions more potential users and spectators. Making the game only fun or playable for the handful of professional diehard nerds that play it 50+ hours a week is like eSports getting a Born to Lose tattoo on it's forehead.
If the game is not balanced around the top level of play then it's not balanced. Your defeatist attitude is extremely entitled, and very harmful to the health of the game.
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On March 15 2013 13:37 avilo wrote:
If widow mine is "too powerful" i'm assuming that he understand the current blinding cloud radius is "too powerful" as well correct?
Tested it in the unit tester today after some "strange" games, 4 vipers using 6 blinding clouds shut down roughly15+ siege tanks that were pre-spread in a 99% optimal fashion.
Something is wrong here.
A balance designer cannot only look at one race...the widow mine is one of the few balancing factors right now against the insane blinding cloud radius vs mech.
We all can only assume that if they are "looking at the widow mine" then they will not let their own bias disallow them from also "looking at the blinding cloud radius" as well...correct?
We would hope so.
Ultras also currently seem to be "overperforming."
In the original post of this thread, why is there no mention/analysis of any Zerg units "being too powerful" whatsoever? I am confused. Should there not be "looking at" all 3 of the races? It seems one has been mysteriously left out of the equation here.
Hmm.
Just food for thought. Right now in the community, the largest majority of whining is coming from prominent Zerg streamers. It is not unjustified, but I am going to point out here that what these Zerg players are complaining about is not an actual balance issue with the game, but a learning curve related to a new game in relation to Zerg being the most reactive race.
When Zerg players right now are complaining about being underpowered, they are not understanding the game and the basis of their own complaint - what they are really complaining about is that at the start of this new game it is difficult to read and react to the new variety of things that Protoss and Terran can do to them due to the differences in worker production and the larva mechanic.
This is a learning curve issue - NOT A BALANCE ISSUE. Get it straight everyone in this thread and community. We do not want a repeat of wings where one race is overbuffed.
Zerg is the most reactive race. Everyone knows this. If you do not know the perfect amount of drones to make, or what you can get away with you will die to new things. This is the root of what Zerg players REALLY MEAN when they complain that they are currently "underpowered." The truth is they are not.
As the game is more figured out, and Zergs realize what to do with their larva better vs certain openings and situations...Zerg is just as powerful as the other two races.
I write this because right now it's a "Zerg QQ fest" and the developers seem to be being influenced by it quite a bit to the point, i'll say it again, they completely leave out any criticism balance wise of the viper in the OP of this post or anything of Zerg's possibly being "too strong."
Sorry for the long post. Just had to clarify because Zerg right now is in fact no where near underpowered, and Zerg players do not seem to understand that they are not complaining about balance, but about Zerg being the most reactive race and in fact as the game is figured out more they will be perfectly fine, and more.
Zerg is reactive race yes, but widow mines are not the units to which you can react. They are universally good vs. everything, and you don't have real counter to them. Not to mention probably most cost efficient unit in the game as it stands now.
Oh and blinding cloud.. Actually Viper has so many counters it's not even funny.
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On March 15 2013 14:55 Rabiator wrote:
All the things about "power at low league vs high league" really shows that there are some things badly wrong with the game. That was kinda obvious from the beginning and sadly they dont want to fix those things. Not smart.
There is something "badly wrong" because some units require more skill to use or defend against?
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On March 15 2013 16:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 14:50 Defacer wrote:On March 15 2013 14:24 BuddhaMonk wrote:
It hurts my head how dumb people are if they think that you have to be a top pro to balance the game. Most pros would be terrible game designers / balancers.
'Professionals' in any field mask their biases and self-interest with false objectivity. If IdrA was Protoss, I'm sure he could construct a thoughtful, coherent 15 minute defense of Skytoss and explain why it is balanced. This is what we call a faulty assumption. If IdrA retained his skill but was being paid to design the game then I can assure you that he would not be biased. It's undeniable that professionals understand the game better than plat random players like Browder, however playing at a professional level does not = biased. Idra is biased because that's how he vents in casual form, but it has nothing to do with his skill level.
I think the greatest fallacy — in any profession — is that the more skilled and knowledgeable someone is in their field, the more objective they are.
I'm just saying that you can't assume someone is more objective just because they're more knowledgeable or capable . There's a lot of people that are great at what they do but lie to themselves constantly.
I don't think we're disagreeing.
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Lol Akusta is so retarted, "a congress of professional players to balance the game".
That would be worse than the typical liberals vs. conservatives that can't get anything done in Congress.
Pros are all biased towards their own race, since it's their pay/livelihood on the line. When u see streams of pros and someone discusses balance, they rarely if ever will talk bad about their own race. Ex: Grubby today disagreed that Protoss air is op. Demsulim didn't agree that med boost was op.
If they had a vote on let's say a buff to a zerg unit, the representatives from the other two races would veto that buff. On the other hand, if their was a vote for a neft on void rays, the reps from the other races would vote yes. Nothing would get accomplished.
You need someone that is neutral to all parties, and that doesn't have their way of living depend on the balance of their own race
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 15 2013 15:45 Misacampo wrote:
Things I don't like.
>The game globally balanced, I repeat, the game is globally balanced.
Game shouldn't be balanced around lower levels of play in sea/NA. It should be balanced around top KR. It gets balanced for the top players, but also for other leagues. Blizzard said several times in formal interviews – that one here is informal – that the highest level of play gets prioritized. But they also aim to balance it for lower leagues.
If would be irresponsible to leave a glaring low-level balancing issue to make one race OP in that skillrange, so that players of the other races abandon the game.
Lets even consider that a small balance issue is left for top-tier players, to create balance for lower leagues. That still could be overall a good thing. Because glaring imbalance at low levels = less players = less views = less tournament prize money = less esports.
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