EPTSituation Report: HoTS Balance - Page 37
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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JtoK
Germany232 Posts
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orewakami
22 Posts
Still, I think that Terrans may be shooting themselves in the foot thinking that turtle until 200 with 6 queens is now 'obsolete' and Zergs have to be more aggressive. Terrans have gotten better at defending early (with mines and easier tanks) and they have gotten better at 'counter-attacks' (ie. medivac drops). Stephano said in that MLG interview that the first means Zerg can never go out onto the map until I think he said around 16 minutes. Actually at the end of WoL it didn't seem that most good zergs were going 6 queens, they were going less because they didn't need 6 queens. So maybe a more realistic guess would be that with the new early aggresion of Terran, zergs might have to start making more queens again. Meanwhile, its not obvious that turtling as a Zerg (against Terran) is a worse idea than it was before. Zerg did lose a lot in the infestor but in exchange they have actually good ultras, which means that those tech switches Terrans whined about can be even more deadly. And it means that Zerg isn't forced to go broodlord and be near immobile. Mutas are making a resurgence, but they still have the same problems as before (if you lose them in one wrong click then you lose the game) and logically that danger would be further increased when they can be lost to a couple of mines that aren't that easy to notice until its too late. Granted, Life did play like that and won. But that is how Life used to play and used to win anyway, even when supposedly 'all' zergs turtled to bl/infestor. I think its a mistake to imagine that people will play like Life, because no one can really play like Life. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with. well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 20 2013 13:57 starslayer wrote: well like i said maybe have it as an upgrade and armory so its later in the game and the other players will have more stuff to defend. i understand that the burners are good at every point in the game but i think that being able to hit your opponent with them so early give the terran a huge advantage that the other play cant catch up and making it harder to defend later.so in theory yes it should make it easier because of the investment until late game but idk we will see. The point is that they STILL have to defend against it with units and can not leave their base OR they leave their base with fewer units than they could have to defend against a drop that might never come ... in several spots, so you have to leave quite a lot. It is bad design of Blizzard and really obvious, but I think I should thank them for giving proof for one of my criticisms about the game design. SC2 simply has become TOO FAST and TOO MUCH ABOUT MOBILITY that strategy is no longer a part of the game. Just good macro and massive production are need and then you have to be LUCKY ... As some people have already pointed out to me when I replied that they should build cannons to defend against doom drops, there is no way to defend against it in the game, so you have to gamble. Leave your units to defend and risk losing a battle in the mid-field OR take them and risk being dropped and losing for sure. The Terran has the choice between dropping and not dropping. That LUCK being part of the game is ok since it applies to both races, right? Not really since it is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with the BETTER player winning and not the lucky guy. Nerfing the Medivac boost will only mask the real problem and that is the overpowering importance of mobility in the game. There simply is too much of it ... The other problem is that there are too many units in a far too concentrated area and they are too easily controlled. + Show Spoiler + Preemptive reply to the idiots ... who will claim that I want to turn SC2 into BW with my comments: There isnt only "BW settings" and "SC2 settings" to choose from, but rather a bazillion options between them. BW had its problems, but that doesnt mean SC2 is perfect. SC2 designers clearly went too far into the "more more more and easier" direction ... BW wasnt boring to watch and only the limited technology at the time did prevent it from becoming a big eSports hit in the west. We have better technology to watch now, but that doesnt mean it makes sense to make the game ever faster and faster and bigger and bigger armies. People are still ok with the obvious scale discrepancies between the units - which are there for gameplay reasons (because you wouldnt notice Marines / Zerglings on a map scale for Battlecruisers) - so why shouldnt a 12 unit selection limit be acceptable for gameplay reason? People who claim that unlimited unit selection is "necessary" because "technology has advanced" are just too lazy to learn controlling multiple groups. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On March 20 2013 13:43 Empirimancer wrote: What would be the point of making afterburners an upgrade? So the drops will start a bit later and the terran will have a bit less money for fighting units. It won't make the drops easier to deal with. Free upgrades have significant impact on the metgame, altho' I didn't agree with free Siege Tech in beta, I have to admit free Siege Tech has made Siege Tanks playable in TvP and haven't made early Zerg aggression unplayable in TvZ. In the case of Afterburners, it has forced both Protoss and Zerg to play more aggressively either before or at the 10 minute mark, and altho' that aggressiveness is certainly enjoyable to watch I don't think moving Afterburners to an upgrade at the Starport Tech Lab would necessarily eliminate that aggressiveness now that players have realized how effective it is regardless of Afterburners. And even tho' we all enjoy aggressive play from Protoss and Zerg, there should be a place for defensive play from them as well. I think if you move the Afterburners upgrade to the Starport Tech Lab then Terrans will have to make more mindful decisions about whether or not they want to have faster Medivacs for effective drops or more Medivacs for effective pushes. It creates longer timings for the other races to be passive and reduces the mass of Medivacs for Terrans to be able to withstand pushes. | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
I also find it hilarious that those talking about whining a few weeks ago are the some of the most vocal whiners right now. Role reversals. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
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[DoA]TrAkzor
1 Post
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
One thing I think would be worth considering, if there are any lasting issues with Protoss air vs Zerg, is a Hive upgrade to Swarm Hosts so Locusts can hit air, like they could earlier in the beta. That could make ZvZ more interesting, too. | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
There are 281P 264Z 229T it's 36.3%P 34.1%Z 29.5%T Yeh lets nerf medivacs and widow mine so that we can return to wol balance... | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
Energy use is the easier change though, which is how blizzard usually does these things. That has the oposite effect, in that a low energy medivac can't escape, whereas a high energy one is less vulnerable to feedback. Seems less cool all round to me. | ||
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IceSpider
United States4 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On March 20 2013 18:24 dargul wrote: You can check GML http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/grandmaster/ There are 281P 264Z 229T it's 36.3%P 34.1%Z 29.5%T Yeh lets nerf medivacs and widow mine so that we can return to wol balance... except... terran is the least played race http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all oops | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On March 20 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote: Nope, unless Zergs went for Mutas they would almost always have numerous spores and spines per base. Protoss also did build canons but they mostly defended drops by leaving units behind as cannons are terrible AA for their cost. On ladder yes. Zergs on ladder are for some reason so much better at making static defense than pro zergs. Dunno how many times ive seen pro zergs struggle with drops while sitting on 2k minerals and refusing to just spam spores/spines. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On March 20 2013 19:07 nkr wrote: except... terran is the least played race http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all oops Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%) I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On March 20 2013 19:29 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, as of now, on race distribution on the Korean Grandmaster ladder is: P: 71 (35.86%) T: 59 (29.8%) Z: 68 (34.34%) And the race distribution across all leagues in Korea is: P: 7346 (35.36&) T: 6733 (32.41%) Z: 6695 (32.23%) I think the numbers are pretty even, I cannot say that statistically one race is overrepresented than the other in the GM league. edit: so my opinion is: how about we wait a month, before jumping to conclusions? my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On March 20 2013 19:38 nkr wrote: my only conclusion was that terran is the least played race Good, then all three of us agree that the race distribution in the GM league is balanced? :> (whether that is because the game is balanced or it is too early to tell is another matter) | ||
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