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On February 01 2013 06:56 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11,281GB = 225,70 GB /month of bandwidth consumption.
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225,70 / 0,07 = $3224,33 every month.
I think you might wanna run those numbers through your calc again  Assuming your values are corrent (which I have no idea if they are or aren't) that would mean that the stream costs roughly $15/month and not over 3k...
woops my bad! Let me fix that! I got confused and mistook GB for...TB - and messed up with bit/byte calc.
This 1K viewers stream costs : $2 022,3 /month in Bandwidth
Figures are accurate. $0,07/GB is a pretty good deal but I'm sure own3d had an even better one (maybe down to $0,05/GB).
Still, to run this, you need an insane amount of money. OR custom peering agreements, and dedicated wires.
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If wheat and slasher would just prepare a bit for their interview ... they could just read the Austrian law...google the point that matters took me less then 120 seconds... and then really ask questions and not take bullshit statements like "i am not allowed to say". How is he not allowed to talk about things that are now free to public?
Here You both had a job to do buy helping the gamers and ask oleg about for example the "Ediktsdatei". I dont think gamers will know about this. And because basically every person can take a look into this we know how much money they got / earned / lost / how they spend it and and and and.
And most important:
Name / Contact Data of the insolvency administrator - who is the only person who can tell you if you get something and the only person that matters if you want something. Or at least the court this will happen to get this data.
I am really disappointed buy eSport journalism! This was just another no brainer and not more.
ps: yes i am really emotional and I hope slasher/wheat will read this. And yes I study law so I have ofc better knowledge, but just take 5 min cross googling would bring you results even with zero basic law skills.
Ofc you can google with bings or any other service you want to google informations. (i love this joke)
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On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d? 2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown: - 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate 1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB). Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations). Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
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On February 01 2013 10:01 tadL wrote:
If wheat and slasher would just prepare a bit for their interview ... they could just read the Austrian law...google the point that matters took me less then 120 seconds... and then really ask questions and not take bullshit statements like "i am not allowed to say". How is he not allowed to talk about things that are now free to public?
Here You both had a job to do buy helping the gamers and ask oleg about for example the "Ediktsdatei". I dont think gamers will know about this. And because basically every person can take a look into this we know how much money they got / earned / lost / how they spend it and and and and.
And most important:
Name / Contact Data of the insolvency administrator - who is the only person who can tell you if you get something and the only person that matters if you want something. Or at least the court this will happen to get this data.
I am really disappointed buy eSport journalism! This was just another no brainer and not more.
ps: yes i am really emotional and I hope slasher/wheat will read this. And yes I study law so I have ofc better knowledge, but just take 5 min cross googling would bring you results even with zero basic law skills.
Ofc you can google with bings or any other service you want to google informations. (i love this joke)
Wait a minute, it's not the job of reporters to help people with finding the information of the creditors. Have you EVER seen information like that listed in an interview? That information should be on a statement from own3d somewhere, or made available by emailing Oleg. It surely shouldn't be on live on 3.......
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It's finally over, gg no re own3d
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On February 01 2013 13:27 Pinski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d? 2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown: - 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate 1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB). Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations). Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about. Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money).
Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users.
This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream.
Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick.
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
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On February 01 2013 13:27 Pinski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d? 2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown: - 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate 1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB). Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations). Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about. Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
Wow, I really am tired... thanks for pointing it out - fixing this.
It doesn't really change my point though: running this business still costs a lot of money.
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On February 01 2013 07:50 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 02:25 mrRoflpwn wrote:On February 01 2013 00:41 Hoon wrote:On February 01 2013 00:32 Comadevil wrote:On February 01 2013 00:29 Hoon wrote:On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote:
lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full. LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime. HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies. So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
Not exactly because it depends on what type of company own3d was. If the company was a sole proprietorship then yes he will have to pay back the debts personally. Also same thing goes if the company is a partnership as well but if it was a Corporation that is a whole different ball game. At least I know here in the states, and I have studied a bit of business, you can declare bankruptcy as long as your business is a Corporation and get away with zero cost to you personally.
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On February 01 2013 19:03 carde wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 13:27 Pinski wrote:On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d? 2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown: - 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate 1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB). Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations). Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about. Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong. He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money). Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users. This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream. Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick.
As I said, I'm just focusing on the basic maths aspect of it. That's roughly what it would cost you without any peering agreement.
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
These pricing are not inaccurate - these, for instance, came from quotes we got from Level3, Akamaï and other CDNs - for a monthly commit of ~250 TB. They might have decreased during the past year. And at the end of the day, it depends on our monthly commit... for a PB or more, it's true you would probably get far better deals than that.
I have no idea what kind of data transfer deal you got for $0,003/GB, but it probably doesn't involve the guarantees/services CDNs provide (else, I'm interested in your provider details! ).
True, the word 'bandwidth' is used in different ways - every single CDN we've dealt with uses it for data transfer amounts though.
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Why would own3d pay anything for data transfer? They have their own servers in place.
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On February 01 2013 19:57 Cel.erity wrote:
Why would own3d pay anything for data transfer? They have their own servers in place.
Yes, and the data those servers send has to go through some ones cable/wire/fibre, and you have to pay them for sending it, just like you pay your ISP. They just use low-level services that the ISPs use as well.
And on the matter of bandwidth, it does mean the amount of data a media can carry (Hz), but the mighty MURICAA has seen fit to use it for the amount of data transferred. One can only speculate what kind of treachery this tradition has born from. Just think about it.
EDIT: Yes I know, level3 etc. are also ISPs, but they provide their services to companies, smaller ISPs etc, not individual persons per say.
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As an electrialengineering student i kinda have to cringe while reading some of theses posts :S
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On February 01 2013 00:41 Hoon wrote:
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money.
It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back".
In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
Sorry to be blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about.
In the civilized world there are two (very general) types of companies:
* companies where the business owner(s) are fully liable for any debts incurred by their business with their personal funds. these companies are hardly regulated and the owners can mix personal and company funds freely as there is no legal distinction between the owner and the company.
* companies where liability is limited to the company' assets. this type of company protects its owner from having to pay any debts incurred by his company but is regulated much more tightly (to protect creditors) and draws a clear line between the business and its owners' personal funds/debts/... .
Own3d.tv is an Austrian GmbH ("Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung" - "company with limited liability") which is a limited liability corporation, i.e. the company is a legal person that stands apart from its owner.
Any debts incurred by the company are limited to the company's own assets and do not have to be serviced from its owners personal assets.
To provide some safety to creditors an Austrian GmbH is required to keep at least 35,000 € nominal capital (of which 17,500 € have to be actual cash/bank deposits, the other half can be in guarantees from the owners).
To delay filing for insolvency ("Krida" in Austria) and take on additional debts even when the company is already bankrupt (or bankruptcy is imminent) is a criminal offense in Austria (up to 2 years of prison, up to 3 years prison if the economic impact was significant) if it can be shown that the management has acted wantonly/grossly negligent which is a very high burden of proof.
However, even (simple) negligence in this matter is a civil offense and can lead to the company management being made (personally) financially liable for additional losses incurred by the companies' creditors due to the management's negligent actions.
The idea here is to prevent an already bankrupt company from burning even more of its assets (which could be liquidated to service at least part of its debts) by continuing to operate at a loss.
=> own3d.tv's liabilities are capped at its companies assets (which are guaranteed to be at least 35k €) unless it can be shown that the company management delayed filing for insolvency even after the company was already in a state of insolvency (inability to service its debts/pay its bills for several months would be a strong sign of insolvency). In that case you might sue own3d.tv's management in a civil court and try to get them to pay from their personal coffers.
According to this forum you are from Brazil - in Brazil the rough equivalent to an Austrian GmbH would be the Sociedade Limitada (Ltda). Just as with a GmbH a Ltda's liability is limited to the company's assets, the company is required to hold a nominal capital (62,200 reais which is apporx. 23,000 €) and the company owner's personal assets do not get touched in case of bankruptcy.
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On February 01 2013 19:24 Titio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 19:03 carde wrote:On February 01 2013 13:27 Pinski wrote:On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote:This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d? 2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown: - 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate 1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB). Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations). Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about. Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong. He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money). Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users. This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream. Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick. As I said, I'm just focusing on the basic maths aspect of it. That's roughly what it would cost you without any peering agreement. Show nested quote +
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
These pricing are not inaccurate - these, for instance, came from quotes we got from Level3, Akamaï and other CDNs - for a monthly commit of ~250 TB. They might have decreased during the past year. And at the end of the day, it depends on our monthly commit... for a PB or more, it's true you would probably get far better deals than that. I have no idea what kind of data transfer deal you got for $0,003/GB, but it probably doesn't involve the guarantees/services CDNs provide (else, I'm interested in your provider details! ). True, the word 'bandwidth' is used in different ways - every single CDN we've dealt with uses it for data transfer amounts though.
Yes, well, my figures are for raw bandwidth to our datacenters. It is not even redundant, it is up to us loadbalance and do failower/shaping etc. As an example, look into placing a container or even a rack in the Thor iceland datacenter, you will find that bandwidth then is even cheaper than my quote above.
I highly doubt that a streaming service would use a CDN, mainly because at those volumes it is so much cheaper to just buy raw internet connectivity and do your own peering deals.
As I mentioned, we are rather modest in a bandwidth usage perspective, but we can still do deals with a lot of providers (and "providers" like facebook and google etc) for peering.
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@cost2010: very good said. i feel there are a lot of really young people on this board. so knowlegde like that can not be assumed.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On February 01 2013 22:39 phil.ipp wrote:
@cost2010: very good said. i feel there are a lot of really young people on this board. so knowlegde like that can not be assumed.
Then why are they pretending to have knowledge on the subject?
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On February 02 2013 02:38 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:39 phil.ipp wrote:
@cost2010: very good said. i feel there are a lot of really young people on this board. so knowlegde like that can not be assumed.
Then why are they pretending to have knowledge on the subject?
Because children
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Pity so many amazing vods will be lost. Own3d did achieve a lot in their years, ty for that and what you have done for E-Sports. RIP.
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On February 01 2013 21:55 Elite_ wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HmfK3Yj.png)
Even though I never really liked own3D that much, seeing that when I went to the website today kinda made me sad.
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EPT
