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On January 16 2013 05:50 ROOTT1 wrote:ive known about this for a while now but i didnt want to say anything publically, only told the root members about him. its very easy to figure out if someone is maphacking in pvp because its a b.o orientated mu. i played over 20 games against him on my smurf and every game he blind countered my openers perfectly, just the way he plays(army positioning, reaction times, how he scouts etc etc) made it obvious to me that he maphacked. takes one to know i guess  anywho i really didnt care about him because these type of players are never going to accomplish anything in lans, that being said i got really mad after he beat me in the mlg koth yesterday, i even said something in the middle of the game after he did something suspicious : D
TT1 I fully respect your stance on this, and I 100% am behind you when you can easily see the how the guy's playing, the way he moves and how there is just no way everything he does is so perfect.
I would like to ask however, in light of yet another unfortunate hacking incident, if your thoughts have changed in anyway towards the last situation where we had the ROOT team review a suspected hacker. I can't remember the name of the guy, but Catz lead the charge on a very extensive investigation include what Catz believed is the smoking gun - the "magic scan".
There was a voice on the stream(I think it was yours?) who said "yeah, you know, I really don't want to be band wagoning here", to which Catz said "we are not band wagoning. this is hard evidence."
I just want to say, if you truly suspect someone of foul play - why not just air your thoughts on a bigger level? I understand taking a more cautious stance(because what if you're wrong?) but honestly when you're at the level of play that you are, your senses do not lie. You feel it in your bones when someone is hacking, and you're almost certain to be right.
Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially?
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On January 16 2013 10:31 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:50 ROOTT1 wrote:ive known about this for a while now but i didnt want to say anything publically, only told the root members about him. its very easy to figure out if someone is maphacking in pvp because its a b.o orientated mu. i played over 20 games against him on my smurf and every game he blind countered my openers perfectly, just the way he plays(army positioning, reaction times, how he scouts etc etc) made it obvious to me that he maphacked. takes one to know i guess anywho i really didnt care about him because these type of players are never going to accomplish anything in lans, that being said i got really mad after he beat me in the mlg koth yesterday, i even said something in the middle of the game after he did something suspicious : D TT1 I fully respect your stance on this, and I 100% am behind you when you can easily see the how the guy's playing, the way he moves and how there is just no way everything he does is so perfect. I would like to ask however, in light of yet another unfortunate hacking incident, if your thoughts have changed in anyway towards the last situation where we had the ROOT team review a suspected hacker. I can't remember the name of the guy, but Catz lead the charge on a very extensive investigation include what Catz believed is the smoking gun - the "magic scan". There was a voice on the stream(I think it was yours?) who said "yeah, you know, I really don't want to be band wagoning here", to which Catz said "we are not band wagoning. this is hard evidence." I just want to say, if you truly suspect someone of foul play - why not just air your thoughts on a bigger level? I understand taking a more cautious stance(because what if you're wrong?) but honestly when you're at the level of play that you are, your senses do not lie. You feel it in your bones when someone is hacking, and you're almost certain to be right. Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially?
Was Spades, and the "hard game mechanics evidence" was all 100% bullshit, was either from a misunderstanding of replay mechanics and/or of game mechanics.
Which wasn't too important because there was gameplay evidence, which really is the only admissible evidence outside of someone using automation hacks, which can be detected in the replay file (assuming they use standard methods of automation). And this here too is gameplay evidence, not "mechanics evidence", which is you look at games through a large sample set is quite useful.
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United States7725 Posts
On January 16 2013 10:31 D_K_night wrote:
Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially?
Because if you come out guns blazing on this subject and you're wrong, there's going to be hell to pay. Remember TheMista?
Saw IdrA play this guy on his stream and he was giving him decent games. Thought it was interesting considering he was someone I never had heard of. No suspicion of hacking, if I can recall at the time, but from what a few people are saying, evidence sounds fairly damning.
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On January 16 2013 10:35 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 10:31 D_K_night wrote:On January 16 2013 05:50 ROOTT1 wrote:ive known about this for a while now but i didnt want to say anything publically, only told the root members about him. its very easy to figure out if someone is maphacking in pvp because its a b.o orientated mu. i played over 20 games against him on my smurf and every game he blind countered my openers perfectly, just the way he plays(army positioning, reaction times, how he scouts etc etc) made it obvious to me that he maphacked. takes one to know i guess anywho i really didnt care about him because these type of players are never going to accomplish anything in lans, that being said i got really mad after he beat me in the mlg koth yesterday, i even said something in the middle of the game after he did something suspicious : D TT1 I fully respect your stance on this, and I 100% am behind you when you can easily see the how the guy's playing, the way he moves and how there is just no way everything he does is so perfect. I would like to ask however, in light of yet another unfortunate hacking incident, if your thoughts have changed in anyway towards the last situation where we had the ROOT team review a suspected hacker. I can't remember the name of the guy, but Catz lead the charge on a very extensive investigation include what Catz believed is the smoking gun - the "magic scan". There was a voice on the stream(I think it was yours?) who said "yeah, you know, I really don't want to be band wagoning here", to which Catz said "we are not band wagoning. this is hard evidence." I just want to say, if you truly suspect someone of foul play - why not just air your thoughts on a bigger level? I understand taking a more cautious stance(because what if you're wrong?) but honestly when you're at the level of play that you are, your senses do not lie. You feel it in your bones when someone is hacking, and you're almost certain to be right. Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially? Was Spades, and the "hard game mechanics evidence" was all 100% bullshit, was either from a misunderstanding of replay mechanics and/or of game mechanics. Which wasn't too important because there was gameplay evidence, which really is the only admissible evidence outside of someone using automation hacks, which can be detected in the replay file (assuming they use standard methods of automation). And this here too is gameplay evidence, not "mechanics evidence", which is you look at games through a large sample set is quite useful.
I see your stance on this, and have to respectfully disagree.
I support Catz and watched the video from beginning to end. When even fellow Terran players like PainUser take a look and totally agree, I mean...
This is more likely than not, the wrong time to get into this type of discussion. When I see Catz highlight many fishy trends in the video such as
"why would he scan...and then NOT look at where he scanned"
"why would his camera be spending all that time staring at his buildings"
"why would he completely unsiege ALL his tanks from the center, and move EVERY unit to intercept that drop"
People rushed in saying, "oh Spades isn't even good, he just does random stuff" which is the most difficult to believe thing I have ever heard. Talking about a guy who is GM level from "doing random stuff" ?
Tell that to all the people who can't break into masters. I am of the opinion that getting to GM is not some random trivial feat that literally anyone can do. The very best players in the entire geographic region - 0.2%...can just...somehow get into GM..."doing random stuff" - maybe I'm the one who's delusional, right?
You're probably gonna say "the replay files are subject to corruption", "you can't rely on replays for evidence when the camera could be bugged" and possibly even many hundreds of other reasons.
I still believe in CatZ, that's all I have to close off with.
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Yeah there was some weird stuff going on in the HotS koth he played in but i thought it was extremely good blind luck
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Could anyone in this thread provide me with replays so i can analyse them? be it in a PM or just a comment in this thread?
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On January 16 2013 11:10 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 10:35 EtherealDeath wrote:On January 16 2013 10:31 D_K_night wrote:On January 16 2013 05:50 ROOTT1 wrote:ive known about this for a while now but i didnt want to say anything publically, only told the root members about him. its very easy to figure out if someone is maphacking in pvp because its a b.o orientated mu. i played over 20 games against him on my smurf and every game he blind countered my openers perfectly, just the way he plays(army positioning, reaction times, how he scouts etc etc) made it obvious to me that he maphacked. takes one to know i guess anywho i really didnt care about him because these type of players are never going to accomplish anything in lans, that being said i got really mad after he beat me in the mlg koth yesterday, i even said something in the middle of the game after he did something suspicious : D TT1 I fully respect your stance on this, and I 100% am behind you when you can easily see the how the guy's playing, the way he moves and how there is just no way everything he does is so perfect. I would like to ask however, in light of yet another unfortunate hacking incident, if your thoughts have changed in anyway towards the last situation where we had the ROOT team review a suspected hacker. I can't remember the name of the guy, but Catz lead the charge on a very extensive investigation include what Catz believed is the smoking gun - the "magic scan". There was a voice on the stream(I think it was yours?) who said "yeah, you know, I really don't want to be band wagoning here", to which Catz said "we are not band wagoning. this is hard evidence." I just want to say, if you truly suspect someone of foul play - why not just air your thoughts on a bigger level? I understand taking a more cautious stance(because what if you're wrong?) but honestly when you're at the level of play that you are, your senses do not lie. You feel it in your bones when someone is hacking, and you're almost certain to be right. Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially? Was Spades, and the "hard game mechanics evidence" was all 100% bullshit, was either from a misunderstanding of replay mechanics and/or of game mechanics. Which wasn't too important because there was gameplay evidence, which really is the only admissible evidence outside of someone using automation hacks, which can be detected in the replay file (assuming they use standard methods of automation). And this here too is gameplay evidence, not "mechanics evidence", which is you look at games through a large sample set is quite useful. I see your stance on this, and have to respectfully disagree. I support Catz and watched the video from beginning to end. When even fellow Terran players like PainUser take a look and totally agree, I mean... This is more likely than not, the wrong time to get into this type of discussion. When I see Catz highlight many fishy trends in the video such as "why would he scan...and then NOT look at where he scanned" "why would his camera be spending all that time staring at his buildings" "why would he completely unsiege ALL his tanks from the center, and move EVERY unit to intercept that drop" People rushed in saying, "oh Spades isn't even good, he just does random stuff" which is the most difficult to believe thing I have ever heard. Talking about a guy who is GM level from "doing random stuff" ? Tell that to all the people who can't break into masters. I am of the opinion that getting to GM is not some random trivial feat that literally anyone can do. The very best players in the entire geographic region - 0.2%...can just...somehow get into GM..."doing random stuff" - maybe I'm the one who's delusional, right? You're probably gonna say "the replay files are subject to corruption", "you can't rely on replays for evidence when the camera could be bugged" and possibly even many hundreds of other reasons. I still believe in CatZ, that's all I have to close off with.
First there is something you need to understand. Namely, camera lock as we have seen it so far is not triggered automatically. And why would it be? That would be the easiest thing to detect ever - a similar method was used in BW to detect hackers, namely through the absence of something that you'd normally expect to see at least a few times.
So to your first point, why would Spades scan, and then active camera lock to look at his scan target? See that makes no sense at all from the viewpoint of it being a clue in the replay itself, outside of all game context. So it would seem unlikely to be a camera lock, but rather that he either did not bother to look at it period (which is gameplay evidence and very useful), or he looked at it for not too long then went to something else, and in a replay file what happens is that such actions can be not played back. It is for this reason that you can select units without the selection showing up in the unit box in a replay.
Your second point about staring at buildings is interesting, as it is suggestive of camera lock, however it is not 100% proof because people do occasionally do that for a variety of reasons. However, as I said before, if the guy is doing that a lot and/or never looking into fog of war, then it is highly suggestive.
Your last point about random unit movements is exactly the type of thing I am saying is most useful in fingering a hacker. Gameplay evidence, namely moves that don't make any sense at all unless you have perfect vision or at least the ability to see production tab, are very good. Imo only a retard or longtime hacker would get caught using active features of a hack, rather than passive. So instead we probably have to rely more on how they play, because over a long period of games, you can tell if something is up with the way they play, and that's how you notice them, unless they are using active hacks that leave a fingerprint.
And PS I didn't say Catz is wrong. I just said that his evidence of active components of a hack being used were iffy at best , and detracted from the good evidence garnered through analysis of Spades' play. I actually think he was right, about the gameplay evidence that is.
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Pretty ballsy to hack in a tournament such as this.
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On January 16 2013 14:04 Raithed wrote:
Pretty ballsy to hack in a tournament such as this.
not that ballsy, i know a guy who used wall hack in a Counter-Strike WCG Lan tournament
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Sad stuff man, sucks to see people who have the potential to break out as a player but then you find out about this T_T Oh well there will always be people who try way too hard and go to such lengths. Almost pathetic imo... At least people who have been caught and stop hacking have the sense to get over themselves and actually get good to prove people wrong.. but guess not here ;(
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Wow this sad hacker was on MLG KotH?
He's a hacker, no big deal, there are hundreds of em on Ladder. The issue here is that he was able to enter & play in a tournament. Who is responsible? In my opinion, MLG screwed up.
Also this could be a good opportunity to rant about the credibility of online tournaments, and how you never know who is actually behind the computer, nor what he is actually doing.
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He still lose with map hack lol ...
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On January 16 2013 11:10 D_K_night wrote:
People rushed in saying, "oh Spades isn't even good, he just does random stuff" which is the most difficult to believe thing I have ever heard. Talking about a guy who is GM level from "doing random stuff" ?
Tell that to all the people who can't break into masters. I am of the opinion that getting to GM is not some random trivial feat that literally anyone can do. The very best players in the entire geographic region - 0.2%...can just...somehow get into GM..."doing random stuff" - maybe I'm the one who's delusional, right?
Hmmm, there's tons of people in GM, even top GM, who do completely random stuff. The distinction between GM and masters isn't just strategy, a lot of it is mechanics and execution - which is why people with high GM mechanics and execution can faceroll people doing random stuff oftentimes. Blind all-ins, metagaming, lack of scouting, random army movements, all of these things happen all of the time in legitimate high-level play.
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On January 16 2013 15:01 Al Bundy wrote:
Wow this sad hacker was on MLG KotH?
He's a hacker, no big deal, there are hundreds of em on Ladder. The issue here is that he was able to enter & play in a tournament. Who is responsible? In my opinion, MLG screwed up.
Also this could be a good opportunity to rant about the credibility of online tournaments, and how you never know who is actually behind the computer, nor what he is actually doing.
Most of the HotS tournaments have been including a wide range of players just based on recommendation. This is great to getting new players exposure in the scene so don't be mad about that. The problem is that no one really had any evidence at that time as far as I know, and just like TT1 said. It's not good to try and screw someone over just based on a hunch, even if its a good one.
The show matches/KOTH MLG has been doing is amazing and you shouldn't be mad at anyone. Instead, just encourage highly skilled players to continually check for suspicious action so we can try to ward away things like that from happening.
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Russian Federation174 Posts
15:05 in video BEST MOMENT :D :D :D
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On January 16 2013 10:31 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:50 ROOTT1 wrote:ive known about this for a while now but i didnt want to say anything publically, only told the root members about him. its very easy to figure out if someone is maphacking in pvp because its a b.o orientated mu. i played over 20 games against him on my smurf and every game he blind countered my openers perfectly, just the way he plays(army positioning, reaction times, how he scouts etc etc) made it obvious to me that he maphacked. takes one to know i guess anywho i really didnt care about him because these type of players are never going to accomplish anything in lans, that being said i got really mad after he beat me in the mlg koth yesterday, i even said something in the middle of the game after he did something suspicious : D TT1 I fully respect your stance on this, and I 100% am behind you when you can easily see the how the guy's playing, the way he moves and how there is just no way everything he does is so perfect. I would like to ask however, in light of yet another unfortunate hacking incident, if your thoughts have changed in anyway towards the last situation where we had the ROOT team review a suspected hacker. I can't remember the name of the guy, but Catz lead the charge on a very extensive investigation include what Catz believed is the smoking gun - the "magic scan". There was a voice on the stream(I think it was yours?) who said "yeah, you know, I really don't want to be band wagoning here", to which Catz said "we are not band wagoning. this is hard evidence." I just want to say, if you truly suspect someone of foul play - why not just air your thoughts on a bigger level? I understand taking a more cautious stance(because what if you're wrong?) but honestly when you're at the level of play that you are, your senses do not lie. You feel it in your bones when someone is hacking, and you're almost certain to be right. Basically I'm asking, is there a bigger reason why you take such a conservative stance, at least initially?
i usually dont like to accuse people of maphacking until im 100% sure of it(by playing them or by watching them play over a large enough game sample). you risk ruining someones career if your wrong about them, sadly the only way you can be sure whether or not someone is hacking is by having "concrete" evidence(such as blink micro hack, fog of war clicks etc etc) but thats very unlikely to occur
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On January 16 2013 15:11 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 15:01 Al Bundy wrote:
Wow this sad hacker was on MLG KotH?
He's a hacker, no big deal, there are hundreds of em on Ladder. The issue here is that he was able to enter & play in a tournament. Who is responsible? In my opinion, MLG screwed up.
Also this could be a good opportunity to rant about the credibility of online tournaments, and how you never know who is actually behind the computer, nor what he is actually doing. Most of the HotS tournaments have been including a wide range of players just based on recommendation. This is great to getting new players exposure in the scene so don't be mad about that. The problem is that no one really had any evidence at that time as far as I know, and just like TT1 said. It's not good to try and screw someone over just based on a hunch, even if its a good one. The show matches/KOTH MLG has been doing is amazing and you shouldn't be mad at anyone. Instead, just encourage highly skilled players to continually check for suspicious action so we can try to ward away things like that from happening.
I understand, that sounds good.
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On January 16 2013 15:11 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 15:01 Al Bundy wrote:
Wow this sad hacker was on MLG KotH?
He's a hacker, no big deal, there are hundreds of em on Ladder. The issue here is that he was able to enter & play in a tournament. Who is responsible? In my opinion, MLG screwed up.
Also this could be a good opportunity to rant about the credibility of online tournaments, and how you never know who is actually behind the computer, nor what he is actually doing. Most of the HotS tournaments have been including a wide range of players just based on recommendation. This is great to getting new players exposure in the scene so don't be mad about that. The problem is that no one really had any evidence at that time as far as I know, and just like TT1 said. It's not good to try and screw someone over just based on a hunch, even if its a good one. The show matches/KOTH MLG has been doing is amazing and you shouldn't be mad at anyone. Instead, just encourage highly skilled players to continually check for suspicious action so we can try to ward away things like that from happening.
Yup this. You can't get mad at them for not knowing. They aren't expected to look at every single player and know for a fact they don't hack. It's impossible to tell unless you are looking for it and the people doing that aren't looking and paying attention to suspicious activity, doesn't even cross their minds especially if the other player is actually "scouting".
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Finally that guy got caught. I remember him posting cocky shit in the clanchat like "Im the best in HotS" "Im better than everyone else, even Korean Toppros are respecting me now" day after day..
That news made my day I hope the other ******** cheaters will get caught one day too. Cheating is still way too easy in Sc2 (disregardless if its WoL or HotS). I would bet money that there are a ton of other "WoL nobodys" who are trying to earn money in HotS due to hacking. A low gm/high master with just a production tab hack can compete with the bests.
Its just frustrating to see as a up and coming player myself that many other people choose the EZ way.
edit..: There is a other zerg as well who jumped out from nowhere to "one of the best/best zerg" in hots. I dont wanna write a name because i dont have evidence. I just want the people to think twice if there is a "Top Player" who is so bad that his builds and timings are even in the first 6minutes of the game 20 seconds behind real top players, without any pressure at all. Just think twice before u admire someone. Not every cheater is so stupid to cheat a way that other people can really "see" it
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Makes sense considering he was horrible in WoL.
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EPT
