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On December 18 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote:
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control. you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly.
EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
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On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote:
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
Do you wanna keep feeding money to Ganzi when he cant play full time? Heck he could had taken pay cut and fix his injury and then come back with better results and higher salary.
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whats with all these stories that pop up where another says "no thats now how it happened" etc ? this is getting annoying...
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Well as esports gets bigger players are going to be measured by results and how they can make the team money.
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On December 18 2012 12:40 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote:
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control. you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any) That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly. EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
untrue if a player gets hurt the team can cut the player and they don't get paid beyond that point. For alot of players i.e. jeter/a-rod the team won't cut them because if they are able to play again that season or the next season the team will want them around but, for your average player teams won't have a probably cutting them.
In some cases i.e. NFL a players medical costs aren't even covered for injuries they incurred while playing (It's based on number of years played every X amount of years gets you X more coverage) So a rookie who blows out his knee in the first game and gets cut will not only not get paid the remainder of the contract they could also end up having to pay their own medical expenses.
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On December 18 2012 12:40 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote:
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control. you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any) That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly. EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
The reason why general managers of sports teams don't reduce an injured players salary is because they can't--it's a contract. Instead, contracts are often structured to have both "guaranteed" salary and performance bonuses. But any sports player that is injury plagued will take a financial hit when their contract is up and they're in negotiations. Injuries are one of the major reasons that an NFL player's average carer is only about 3 years. That's just the reality of the sporting world, it's not solely about talent, it's also about durability. An injury-prone player is more of a risk to whoever's paying them and their contract will have to reflect that. You could get an amazing talent on the field, or absolutely nothing at all.
Luckily, because SC2 isn't exactly a sport, the people in charge of managing the team don't have to worry as much about predicting injuries and factoring that into contracts.
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Wow some people really don't get it... in sports like football, hockey and baketball for example, the players are paid by an insurance company in case of injuries. It's part of collective agreements! Amazing? Nah, just logic.
The guy with the rookie example.. wake up... people would not play football if they could end up being injured on the first game of their career and having to pay for medical treatment and not being paid their contract money. When a player gets injured, he's actually covered and gets paid. Get your shit straight.
Some hockey players currently playing in Europe due to NHL lockout are barely being paid because the teams are paying the insurance on their big ass NHL contracts in case they get injured. Let's say player X got 50M contract over the next 6 years in the NHL. He goes to play in Russia this season due to lockout, the team won't pay him much in salary because they will not only have to insure him in case of injuries in their league, they will also have to insure him on his 50M over 6 years NHL contract. None of these players would risk playing a game overseas if they could lose their guaranteed NHL money, not worth the risk.
Hopefuly that clarifies how pro sports work in case of injuries!?!
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If the contract was done right, there's no way Complexity could have reduced Ganzi's salary mid-contract, unless he was not fulfilling his side of the deal.. in which case they could offer him to void it or lower his salary. Not cool, but still legal if Ganzi was not fulfilling his part.
If they simply wanted to resign him after the contract expired at half the money, there's absolutly no problem with that at all, it's justified since Ganzi is not worth the same $ he was when they first signed him and he has no reason to complain about it.
My guess... we'll never get the truth of it.
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I almost always trust the player testimony in cases like this. What does Ganzi have to gain by lying? Ending a contract with a gaming team on negative terms?
I'm sad to see things turn out this way. Ganzi, heal up that injury and wreck some face in HoS, please!
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lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract)
2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is.
3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too.
I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs.
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On December 18 2012 15:22 Shinta) wrote:
lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract)
2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is.
3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too.
I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs.
Per my understanding, GanZi was claiming that he was asked to sign a new contract, before his contract ended, that would nullify the previous contract's clause. In other words, blackmail to lower his pay by 1/2 over the next 5 months because more "skilled koreans" were available at that price. In short, change after to before for your 1) point.
I could be wrong but this is why I am siding with GanZi on this.
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On December 18 2012 13:54 HiTeK532 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 12:40 docvoc wrote:On December 18 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote:
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control. you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any) That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly. EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-. untrue if a player gets hurt the team can cut the player and they don't get paid beyond that point. For alot of players i.e. jeter/a-rod the team won't cut them because if they are able to play again that season or the next season the team will want them around but, for your average player teams won't have a probably cutting them. In some cases i.e. NFL a players medical costs aren't even covered for injuries they incurred while playing (It's based on number of years played every X amount of years gets you X more coverage) So a rookie who blows out his knee in the first game and gets cut will not only not get paid the remainder of the contract they could also end up having to pay their own medical expenses.
Depends on the sport and the league. Most leagues have guaranteed contracts.
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I'm not on anyones side because this is just another case of "He said this" and "He said that"
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On December 18 2012 16:28 Confuse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 15:22 Shinta) wrote:
lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract)
2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is.
3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too.
I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs. Per my understanding, GanZi was claiming that he was asked to sign a new contract, before his contract ended, that would nullify the previous contract's clause. In other words, blackmail to lower his pay by 1/2 over the next 5 months because more "skilled koreans" were available at that price. In short, change after to before for your 1) point. I could be wrong but this is why I am siding with GanZi on this.
Even if you're asked to sign a new contract, you don't have to sign a new contract..... the reason is obvious.... YOU'RE ON CONTRACT... Even if he's threatened etc etc and put in a life and death situation, coL can't do anything bad to him legally. I doubt coL would try to physically harm and assess any personal assets of GanZi, so in the real world, GanZi is 100% safe from anything.
If anything GanZi misunderstood, and/or was ignorant and ill-informed of his situation. In no way whatsoever is GanZi in the right here. Regardless of the point of view or the personal feelings you may have towards the situation, GanZi is taking the negative effects 100% of the way.
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Sorry to say, but GanZi would probably destroy whole coL handily. Besides Heart there is no one close in skill... I'm not a huge fan of GanZi to begin with, but I'm in with him on that matter. If you make a contract and you have no matters in it about adjusting the salary or timeline you better keep that contract.
Can't say if it would be the case that GanZi would need to leave the team without the lower salary, but I strongly get the impression that this is the case. In my opinion just shows how bad of a contract was made. You should always be able to re-negotiate payments and other things made in the contract.
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EPT
