Kim “GanZi” Dong Joo says his “heart and pride as a gamer were deeply hurt” during contract negotiations with his former team compLexity Gaming.
GanZi, who had spent nine months with coL, told ESFI that things that were said during his recent contract negotiation with coL owner Jason Lake in a private conversation at IPL5 left him no choice but to choose to leave the team.
“I received an unreasonable demand and deeply hurtful comment as a human being from compLexity,” GanZi said. “[Jason Lake and I] started talking, and during the conversation, he demanded me to sign a new contract, which would have decreased my salary by half. When asked why, he mentioned that my performance hasn’t been good due to injury, and the team decided that they wanted to sign a more famous and skilled player. My contract still had five months left on it, and the contract did not have any clauses to modify the content of the contract, which made me unable to accept his demand.”...
...Following GanZi’s interview, his statement was relayed to Jason Lake in order to verify GanZi’s claims. “That version of events is simply not true,” Lake told ESFI after reading GanZi’s comments. “I am saddened he has chosen to portray our hour long conversation in this manner. There were no 'demands' made. We simply offered GanZi a lesser salary for 2013 (his contract expires in March) due to his long-standing injury but offered to include provisions that would return him to his previous amount should he return to full-time play. We have stood loyally by him through his challenging health issues that even saw him drop out of live events like MLG Arena and MLG Raleigh. I personally campaigned for him to receive an invitation to HomeStory Cup. We do our best to treat our players fairly and I am very disappointed by his version of these events. Beyond that, I feel it's not appropriate to elaborate more on confidential contract negotiations. We thank GanZi for his time in our organization and wish him the very best in the future.”
Very depressing to read I really like GanZi as a player and even though he hasn't been performing very well lately (which is what teams want) I still wish he hadn't been let go. Hope for the best in his future!
Jason Lake already said that the contract was a reduction in salary when Ganzi was unable to play full time due to injuries/illnesses. Once he returned to full time status, he would regain his full salary again. I found this to be quite fair.
“That version of events is simply not true,” Lake told ESFI after reading GanZi’s comments. “I am saddened he has chosen to portray our hour long conversation in this manner. There were no 'demands' made. We simply offered GanZi a lesser salary for 2013 (his contract expires in March) due to his long-standing injury but offered to include provisions that would return him to his previous amount should he return to full-time play. We have stood loyally by him through his challenging health issues that even saw him drop out of live events like MLG Arena and MLG Raleigh. I personally campaigned for him to receive an invitation to HomeStory Cup. We do our best to treat our players fairly and I am very disappointed by his version of these events. Beyond that, I feel it's not appropriate to elaborate more on confidential contract negotiations. We thank GanZi for his time in our organization and wish him the very best in the future.”
Important to read both sides of the story. This was likely a miscommunication but more over, no one sound really be surprised at ganzi's paycut. This just sounds like a business decision was made but with a lot of miscommunication.
On December 16 2012 18:14 Dubzex wrote: Jason Lake already said that the contract was a reduction in salary when Ganzi was unable to play full time due to injuries/illnesses. Once he returned to full time status, he would regain his full salary again. I found this to be quite fair.
Sure anyone can say that, and you'll believe them? That may or may not be true, no offense to Jason Lake, and in vice versa with Ganzi.
Reading the article I feel terrible things ended like this for you GanZi, it is unfortunate that you and coL (or more so Jason Lake) had such a falling out. Wish you luck in recovering from your injury, finding a new team that supports you, and hopefully not leaving the scene altogether after this.
On December 16 2012 18:14 Dubzex wrote: Jason Lake already said that the contract was a reduction in salary when Ganzi was unable to play full time due to injuries/illnesses. Once he returned to full time status, he would regain his full salary again. I found this to be quite fair.
Sure anyone can say that, and you'll believe them? That may or may not be true, no offense to Jason Lake, and in vice versa with Ganzi.
I don't care enough to argue because either side could be embellishing or providing false information.
Ganzi isn't good enough (not just talking result-wise. He is just way too slow and look more like a top foreigner than a korean), so I don't see the problem with Jason Lake offering to reducing his salary.
Cant really commentate anything from this, we know nothing of the actual negotiations and we are just hearing each of them talking individually, just their words against each other.
I feel that, lacking information from an objective source that would point to the contrary, a player is always right - no player would make something up that would potentially make his career difficult in the future.
Unfortunately, the players must learn that when it comes to conflicts with management, there really is no hope to gain anything in the media. The management will just come out with some neatly presented spin story that everybody else will confirm because it's in their interest to do so.
From the outside looking in, it seems like Jason Lake negotiates hard, but fairly, when it comes to contracts. It's very standard practice in the western world. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he understands Korean culture yet and the way they seem to negotiate contracts. Following western business practices with eastern players may burn more bridges for Complexity than they can afford when the best players are almost all Korean. He's going to have to learn how to bridge that gap somehow if he wants Complexity to be a force within SC2.
It's a sad situation, but I can see and understand everyone's point of view. I don't think coL should be held accountable for some terrible sin over this or anything.
On December 16 2012 18:29 RenSC2 wrote: From the outside looking in, it seems like Jason Lake negotiates hard, but fairly, when it comes to contracts. It's very standard practice in the western world. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he understands Korean culture yet and the way they seem to negotiate contracts. Following western business practices with eastern players may burn more bridges for Complexity than they can afford when the best players are almost all Korean. He's going to have to learn how to bridge that gap somehow if he wants Complexity to be a force within SC2.
Clearly you do not understand Korean business either. Korean business is cut-throat. Extremely popular and famous singers in korea get overworked and a lot of their money is taken by the record company. Ganzi should have been happy that he was even getting payed when people like MKP are not paid at all.
Strange that Ganzi is linking this on TL (if it is his account), even if his account is perfectly true this doesn't really help him in any way get picked up by another team.
I hope Ganzi gets picked up and does well again but with how many great Korean players aren't on teams atm I don't really see it.
Seems like its just a bit of miscommunication/language barriers between the two and both sides ended the conversations with different viewpoints on how it went. That's that.
This screams "please let me join your team, pity me" If you're not performing, do you deserve the money? The obvious answer: no. Is it time to move on from Star 2 Ganzi? Think so,, this did nothing to help you get a team.
On December 16 2012 18:31 Grend wrote: word against word. Conclusion: do nothing.
This. One side claims that he could've returned to old salary once he has gotten over his injury, and the other said there was no clause like that. I'm tired of people arguing publically without revealing all the information, how are we supposed to come to a sound opinion like that?
On December 16 2012 18:47 Laryleprakon wrote: Strange that Ganzi is linking this on TL (if it is his account), even if his account is perfectly true this doesn't really help him in any way get picked up by another team.
I hope Ganzi gets picked up and does well again but with how many great Korean players aren't on teams atm I don't really see it.
It's the same account that created the stream thread saying he was ganzi and wanted to stream on TL so I assume it is actually him
On December 16 2012 18:47 Laryleprakon wrote: Strange that Ganzi is linking this on TL (if it is his account), even if his account is perfectly true this doesn't really help him in any way get picked up by another team.
I hope Ganzi gets picked up and does well again but with how many great Korean players aren't on teams atm I don't really see it.
Since he says, he doesn't want this to happen to anyone else, this is quite a brazen move to do so. This will feed the starcraft drama fanclub and maybe spark a discussion on team managment (again.. what is it with ex-slayers players???).
On December 16 2012 18:31 Grend wrote: word against word. Conclusion: do nothing.
This. One side claims that he could've returned to old salary once he has gotten over his injury, and the other said there was no clause like that. I'm tired of people arguing publically without revealing all the information, how are we supposed to come to a sound opinion like that?
Agreed 100%
Not gonna pick sides on here. I've no reason to dislike CoL, and Ganzi told me i need more sex.
I don't like when those things go public, you don't really learn anything since both stories have their biase, and it damages the image of everybody involved.
On December 16 2012 19:22 LeLfe wrote: I don't like when those things go public, you don't really learn anything since both stories have their biase, and it damages the image of everybody involved.
There was probably something lost in translation, but tbh nothing really to be said conclusively... where now for Ganzi though? He defo has a better chance in a foreign team
On December 16 2012 18:11 bGr.MetHiX wrote: its time for a witch hunt ?
ps : sadly , korean culture and american culture are quite different and that leads to many inconveniences.
This is a post about facts nothing to do with culture.
Facts? Where are facts? I read trhough every post of this thread but couldnt find any facts.
Post about facts. Not a post of facts. It either happened one way or it didn't. Either he demanded he take half his salary or he didn't. No cultural difference is going to modify what happened.
With these sorts of posts I always see saw back and forth. Ganzi's comment are publicized and I feel bad for him. Lake responds and then I feel like Ganzi was being unfair in his portrayal.
Considering Complexity's background (not paying salary/holding their word in the CS era, or being involved in a negotiation with a player without telling his team for example), I'm more inclined to be on Ganzi's side. But it is hard to know. You know there will be drama with certain teams...
On December 16 2012 18:29 RenSC2 wrote: From the outside looking in, it seems like Jason Lake negotiates hard, but fairly, when it comes to contracts. It's very standard practice in the western world. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he understands Korean culture yet and the way they seem to negotiate contracts. Following western business practices with eastern players may burn more bridges for Complexity than they can afford when the best players are almost all Korean. He's going to have to learn how to bridge that gap somehow if he wants Complexity to be a force within SC2.
No it's not... ''standard'' would be to wait out the contract and then offer him this contract (or none at all, if you ain't happy with him)
Ganzi doesn't speak English, right? A lot of these hurt feelings might be down to a simple error in translation. It's always a risk.
As for contracts, Korean vs Western doesn't matter. They work in Western countries, they work by Western rules. Simple as. This looks like a miscommunication to me.
On December 16 2012 18:29 RenSC2 wrote: From the outside looking in, it seems like Jason Lake negotiates hard, but fairly, when it comes to contracts. It's very standard practice in the western world. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he understands Korean culture yet and the way they seem to negotiate contracts. Following western business practices with eastern players may burn more bridges for Complexity than they can afford when the best players are almost all Korean. He's going to have to learn how to bridge that gap somehow if he wants Complexity to be a force within SC2.
No it's not... ''standard'' would be to wait out the contract and then offer him this contract (or none at all, if you ain't happy with him)
This is, of course, nonsense. Contract renegotiation is something you do while the contract is still running, before it ends. Which is exactly what they did there.
On December 16 2012 19:42 Chriscras wrote: Well the ex-slayers players are certainly developing a reputation t-t
I hate to admit it, but this was my first thought as well after reading the full original post. I loved SlayerS as a team, I have one of their jerseys, there is a poster on the wall of my bar of BoxeR in that Obama "hope" style, but the former SlayerS players are seeming to develop a less than favorable reputation.
Until we get a commonly accepted foreign body to arbitrate this kind of controversies, we will always invariably be left with two opposite statements by the contending parties. Meh. Best of luck to both sides of the arguments, whoever happens to be saying the truth.
On December 16 2012 20:07 WigglingSquid wrote: Until we get a commonly accepted foreign body to arbitrate this kind of controversies, we will always invariably be left with two opposite statements by the contending parties. Meh. Best of luck to both sides of the arguments, whoever happens to be saying the truth.
Why would anyone want an arbitrator in on their contract negotiation? Maybe the player, but who would be the one paying the arbitrator? It would be the team. Can you say conflict of interest? The only way these controversies are ended is if there is a video camera with audio in the room. Then, everyone will know what happened exactly and there won't be anything left up in the air.
On December 16 2012 20:16 schmutttt wrote: How the hell can Ganzi bitch about contract status if what Lake said is true?
Sick of Koreans thinking they can just walk into western teams and command good salaries/conditions with minimal results/showings.
So you join a company with a one-year contract, and then injure yourself while working. You then expect to see your contract cut off or drastically changed? I hope your company does not do that to you if it happens.
Of course there are two sides of this story so this is not black and white.
On December 16 2012 19:53 Thurken wrote: Considering Complexity's background (not paying salary/holding their word in the CS era, or being involved in a negotiation with a player without telling his team for example)
This, this so much. Jason lason lake is good at PR. But the facts ( and the players ) are too often against him.
Ganzi might have fallen from his former glory, but remember this guy was a code S mainstay for a long time. He has the ability to get back to it if he wants. Best of luck to him and a little respect is in order for this great player.
On December 16 2012 19:53 Thurken wrote: Considering Complexity's background (not paying salary/holding their word in the CS era, or being involved in a negotiation with a player without telling his team for example)
This, this so much. Jason lason lake is good at PR. But the facts ( and the players ) are too often against him.
Because in the end the players are usually the only ones hurt. A team doesn't mourn a player leaving usually, though they sometimes do. A team doesn't care that they paid Ganzi X and he got injured, they just know not to do it again. The players typically come out with these negative comments after they're being dismissed.
On December 16 2012 20:16 schmutttt wrote: How the hell can Ganzi bitch about contract status if what Lake said is true?
Sick of Koreans thinking they can just walk into western teams and command good salaries/conditions with minimal results/showings.
So you join a company with a one-year contract, and then injure yourself while working. You then expect to see your contract cut off or drastically changed? I hope your company does not do that to you if it happens.
Of course there are two sides of this story so this is not black and white.
Two sides, and lets call them Side Black and Side White.
On December 16 2012 19:53 Thurken wrote: Considering Complexity's background (not paying salary/holding their word in the CS era, or being involved in a negotiation with a player without telling his team for example)
This, this so much. Jason lason lake is good at PR. But the facts ( and the players ) are too often against him.
Because in the end the players are usually the only ones hurt. A team doesn't mourn a player leaving usually, though they sometimes do. A team doesn't care that they paid Ganzi X and he got injured, they just know not to do it again. The players typically come out with these negative comments after they're being dismissed.
Agreed, not paying your players, talking to another team before even noticing the one you currently have that they're about to get fired etc etc ... that kinda stuff usually hurts the players
On December 16 2012 19:54 Evangelist wrote: Ganzi doesn't speak English, right? A lot of these hurt feelings might be down to a simple error in translation. It's always a risk.
As for contracts, Korean vs Western doesn't matter. They work in Western countries, they work by Western rules. Simple as. This looks like a miscommunication to me.
Dude they have translators, they don't sign people they can't communicate properly with, that would be horrid.
And Ganzi understands/speaks decent English, every major team has Korean translators with them if they have Koreans on the team, otherwise you would see all kinds of Chaos.
So the question is: When would the new contract take effect. Ganzi seems to believe immediately:
My contract still had five months left on it, and the contract did not have any clauses to modify the content of the contract, which made me unable to accept his demand
Jason Lake says this:
We simply offered GanZi a lesser salary for 2013 (his contract expires in March)
I think i'll side with complexity on this one. First of all please don't take your business negotiations out to the media and secondly it seems fair to me the due to a decline in popularity/health/performance over some time is reflected in the salary.
Two people who speak two different languages had a misunderstanding, big shocker. No need to blow anything up here, ganzi will find a new team and coL will sign someone else.
On December 16 2012 20:56 archonOOid wrote: I think i'll side with complexity on this one. First of all please don't take your business negotiations out to the media and secondly it seems fair to me the due to a decline in popularity/health/performance over some time is reflected in the salary.
Normally, I would agree. However, in the case of progamers, it is not like they have an association/union they can turn to when they feel they are getting treated unfairly. As for the change in salary, it depends on how the contract was drafted and the terms.
Could Taeja have asked TL for a immediate raise after this awesome summer run eventhough his contract still had ways to go? For the next contract, of course things like performance will be taken into consideration. But from Ganzi's perspective, they were asking him to change their existing contract, which he has a right to refuse. Of course, if is like Lake said and that it was for next years contract, then I would side with Complexity.
so it seems the discussion in this thread has boiled down to whether or not it was fair to cut ganzis salary mid contract? sounds a bit dodgy to me, and true or not ganzi doesn't stand to gain much by airing this, i doubt he's lying, he feels aggrieved and is warning others of a perceived threat.
Sad for Ganzi but tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the problem in this conflict would be on his side. Often, when reasonable contract negotations are brought forward by western teams (involving Koreans) the Koreans seem to be butthurt about them.
You're "deeply hurt" because your salary got cut in half? You take that shit personal? Come on...
As much as Jason Lake is passionate and hard-edged in ways, he's incredibly fair, and business savvy. If you can blame Jason for anything, it's that an injury-type clause wasn't present in the contract to begin with. Given the increasingly common occurrence regarding RSI and other issues with pro players, I imagine it'll become more commonplace to work out a solution that deals with injuries, their length and how it affects one's salary.
Now, in terms of professional players in other sports, most still get paid their full salary even while injured. Having a guaranteed contract in a professional sport is a lot different than in the area of eSports. eSports organizations simply aren't flush enough to absorb shelling out money to a player that's not streaming, attending tournaments, or anything else they're required to do according to their contract.
While it may seem like a negative and dispiriting thing to happen while a player still has many months remaining on his contract, Jason is simply looking to shore up his organization. And there seems to be some confusion regarding whether they were trying to change his immediate salary, or whether this applies to a new contract next year; I'd have to think it's the latter.
On December 16 2012 22:09 drooL wrote: Sad for Ganzi but tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the problem in this conflict would be on his side. Often, when reasonable contract negotations are brought forward by western teams (involving Koreans) the Koreans seem to be butthurt about them.
You're "deeply hurt" because your salary got cut in half? You take that shit personal? Come on...
More likely he was hurt when they said they wanted to pick up a "more famous and skilled player" and as a result his next salary would be cut in half. I have to agree with Complexity on this one, Ganzi said he was "demanded" to sign a new contract which would be in accordance to what Lake stated.
On December 16 2012 22:09 drooL wrote: Sad for Ganzi but tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the problem in this conflict would be on his side. Often, when reasonable contract negotations are brought forward by western teams (involving Koreans) the Koreans seem to be butthurt about them.
You're "deeply hurt" because your salary got cut in half? You take that shit personal? Come on...
I agree with this 100%, it seems silly that players are upset because they're getting less salary, but it makes sense because they are performing worse.
Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half. I would probably quit on the spot if that happened. Naturally sometimes you have to compromise but since we don't really know how the conversation actually played out it's a bit hard to say whether or not Ganzi overreacted.
One side says one thing, the other says another. Was ganzi being asked to take a salary cut on his existing contract or future contract? Did complexity say anything that can be deemed "insulting" to a professional player?
On December 16 2012 22:38 derpface wrote: CoL did everything right from a business perspective. Sucks for Ganzi though getting injured
It depends. If the injury is the sole reason for cutting his salary and he are expected to recover from it (no idea if this is the case) then it could be a pretty douchy thing to do. It can be understandable considering the financial situation of many teams, but still pretty douchy. That doesn't necessarily apply in the case though since it's probably not that black and white.
Difficult issue. There are too many unknown things to take a stance reliably. I can understand both parties, judging from their own stories.
Btw, i assume ganzi was deeply hurt because they wanted a more skilled player as a reason to cut his salary, but not the salary cut itself? I'm not really sure on this part.
Surprise surprise...its all about Money. Cant tell who is right or wrong here. But i guess that e-sport is a though business. Any Dollar is needed...so dont tell things about loyalty etc...
On December 16 2012 18:29 RenSC2 wrote: From the outside looking in, it seems like Jason Lake negotiates hard, but fairly, when it comes to contracts. It's very standard practice in the western world. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he understands Korean culture yet and the way they seem to negotiate contracts. Following western business practices with eastern players may burn more bridges for Complexity than they can afford when the best players are almost all Korean. He's going to have to learn how to bridge that gap somehow if he wants Complexity to be a force within SC2.
No it's not... ''standard'' would be to wait out the contract and then offer him this contract (or none at all, if you ain't happy with him)
This is, of course, nonsense. Contract renegotiation is something you do while the contract is still running, before it ends. Which is exactly what they did there.
Sounds to me like they wanted him to sign a contract nullifying the one he had... so they could sign a ''better'' player...
As long as they didn't break his existing contract, who is Ganzi to say whether the new terms are fair or not? He had and exercised his option to walk away in search of a better deal.
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
I feel like Ganzi commited eSports suicide by going out in public trashing one of the biggest and most respected teams. We are talking about Complexity here and not some bullshit team like Apex. I think Ganzi is a cool guy but this was a very stupid thing to do. I cant see foreign teams lining up to sign him after this. Also he sounds like a huge drama queen in that article.
On December 16 2012 23:07 Bowzar wrote: I feel like Ganzi commited eSports suicide by going out in public trashing one of the biggest and most respected teams. We are talking about Complexity here and not some bullshit team like Apex. I think Ganzi is a cool guy but this was a very stupid thing to do. I cant see foreign teams lining up to sign him after this. Also he sounds like a huge drama queen in that article.
You're pretty quick to judge. I gotta side with Ganzi on this one, I don't believe he's lying, and it just shows a lack of professionalism by Lake. I like Lake, but everyone can agree he did quite a few mistakes. To me it's not more about the salary cut as it is the words he said to him.
On December 16 2012 23:11 dynwar7 wrote: There may be be some form of misunderstanding, but Jason calling him "age" was too harsh.....so what? He is 23 right? Thats not even old....
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
I guess that is probably because half the people in this thread are under age and never worked a full time job.
We are lacking information though: did he a) want to renegotiate the running contact by cutting current salary in half (inacceptable behavior) or b) offer a follow up contract at half salary (acceptable behavior).
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
I guess that is probably because half the people in this thread are under age and never worked a full time job.
We are lacking information though: did he a) want to renegotiate the running contact by cutting current salary in half (inacceptable behavior) or b) offer a follow up contract at half salary (acceptable behavior).
I commend esfi for getting both sides of the matter. Very professional.
And, results are inconclusive. If ganzi really wants to sabotage col he meeds to prove the contract was supposed to alter his current one. Jason lake just needs to stick to his story.
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
I guess that is probably because half the people in this thread are under age and never worked a full time job.
We are lacking information though: did he a) want to renegotiate the running contact by cutting current salary in half (inacceptable behavior) or b) offer a follow up contract at half salary (acceptable behavior).
Yes, but how stable is esports really? Who knows, his current salary might simply be unsustainable given his current performance. I mean, if your performance were to be cut in half (or however Complexity views Ganzi's performance) with an uncertain prospect of future improvement (how many people with RSI go on to regain their former form in SC2?), what would you expect to happen to your pay? Especially in an industry where even the companies are on loose footing.
On December 16 2012 23:11 dynwar7 wrote: There may be be some form of misunderstanding, but Jason calling him "age" was too harsh.....so what? He is 23 right? Thats not even old....
he's 24, 26 in korean age.
You have to understand that age has a very important implication for Korean citizen: the "older" you get, the harder it is to postpone your military service. So yeah in that sense when you're 24 and korean, your e-sport carrer is on a time limit.
On December 16 2012 23:11 dynwar7 wrote: There may be be some form of misunderstanding, but Jason calling him "age" was too harsh.....so what? He is 23 right? Thats not even old....
he's 24, 26 in korean age.
You have to understand that age has a very important implication for Korean citizen: the "older" you get, the harder it is to postpone your military service. So yeah in that sense when you're 24 and korean, your e-sport carrer is on a time limit.
It's not like they're getting deployed to Afghanistan, isn't it still possible to be a pro gamer if not just online team leagues and cups?
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
I guess that is probably because half the people in this thread are under age and never worked a full time job.
We are lacking information though: did he a) want to renegotiate the running contact by cutting current salary in half (inacceptable behavior) or b) offer a follow up contract at half salary (acceptable behavior).
They were beginning to negotiate a new contract, and due to GanZi's recent performance and schedule, he was offered a lower salary. If you're a 50 goal scorer in the NHL, sign a new contract, then proceed to score 20 goals for the next 3 years, I guarantee your next contract will be less than half of the previous one. That's how things work in a performance-based industry. If you don't perform, you're not going to get the money -- someone else who is performing will get it instead.
If you have hurt feelings in a contract negotiation, you're only hurting yourself. Based on what I know, above and beyond this thread, what Jason said is true.
What really stands out for me is the fact that GanZi has gone public with this. It's obvious he has been unable to get another contract with the same pay/benefits as his previous coL contract, otherwise he would have just signed with a new team and stayed quiet. He's grasping at straws here and will end up shooting himself in the foot. If he offered to join my team for the current salary that Jason offered him, I'd want no part of that. I don't want any players with character issues on my team and that's what looks to be the case by taking this public.
On December 16 2012 22:42 nihlon wrote: Anyone that have a job would probably throw a hissy fit if they go into salary negotiations and your boss wants to cut your salary in half.
You would, I would, but apparently half the people in this thread would be totally relaxed about it.
With the information given, it is stupid to make any comment about who's right or wrong. Did they want to cut in half an existing contract without the contract allowing for any such arbitrary changes (Ganzi version) or did they merely offer a worse follow-up contract (col guy version)? Different stories entirely.
Remember that people threw a fit when Puma (among other players) joined EG "for the money". Apparently fans prefer their players make no salary.
Ganzi did not perform.. He was the second best player on arguably the best korean team... A constant code s leaguer...
Now he is just plain bad. Makes no sense to keep him on the team imho. Especially with a mentality like that (oh i am not performing but lets demand the same money like back when i was at slayer... Oh and if not ill bad mouth the team after it.)
Also i have a feeling that a lot of people will see in two years time that slayers regime was maybe that bad after all.
There's actually not information for us to really judge who's right / wrong. Seems like GanZi was so hurt by something Lake said, he made a statement on it online. Now I can only imagine what Lake said was pretty harsh, otherwise it's a pretty dumb move by GanZi. We'll see when we get more details.
The injury made a nice excuse to try to renegotiate a drop in his salary...I'm willing to bet his it would have gone down even if he was full time. What has he done in the last 9 months anyway? I see him lose to Stephano in every MLG, him and Heart lol. Perhaps the injury is why I have been thinking Ganzi is an overrated player for a while now. I always wondered what he was known for other than going about 2/3 the way through tourneys.
Jason Lake has always been a businessman first and eSports enthusiast second, and to be honest I can't see anything wrong even if Ganzi's side of the story is completely true.
It is very unprofessional for Ganzi to leak this information to the public. He had negotiations with his team, did not reach agreement and subsequently left his team. He should have left it at that and tried to get a new team. He has seemingly gone out of his way to publicly harm his old team by his statements. Jessica got bashed for airing dirty linen in public after the events of Slayers, now Ganzi has made himself look like a brat by these disclosures.
It is perfectly reasonable for salary to be related to performance in tournaments and Ganzi has not really impressed recently, maybe due to his injury. His most notable performance recently has been him dancing at LSC2 and that is not what he was getting paid for.
There are MANY talented SC2 players without teams now. By walking away from Complexity early, Ganzi now has to compete with all these players for a new team, which is difficult enough without his recent lack of results. Good luck to him.
The thing is, im not being funny but what CoL players have been doing well? i dont recall really anyone from CoL putting up really great results this past year in major tournaments anyway. I feel quite sorry for Ganzi, he is such a nice guy and i hope he returns back to his old self and finds a new team soon.
Ganzi claims Complexity tried to renege on their contract obligations - or rather, to force him to accept changes. Jason Lake claims they did not.
Either a miscommunication or someone is lying.
People need to realise that there is a fundamental difference between renewing a contract with some changes (potentially less favourable to one party, which often is reasonable) and trying to change a contract halfway through to make it far less favourable to one party. If Ganzi's version of events is correct then Complexity deserve the call out, if it's a miscommunication then that's simply something unfortunate.
On December 17 2012 02:05 revel8 wrote: It is very unprofessional for Ganzi to leak this information to the public. He had negotiations with his team, did not reach agreement and subsequently left his team. He should have left it at that and tried to get a new team. He has seemingly gone out of his way to publicly harm his old team by his statements. Jessica got bashed for airing dirty linen in public after the events of Slayers, now Ganzi has made himself look like a brat by these disclosures.
Jessica got bashed because the "dirty linen" she revealed actually made her look worse than anyone else by far.
I hate seeing things like this happen. It overall makes both people look bad. We have no idea show telling the truth. I think it is wrong of Ganzi to come out and say this though. Things like this should be handled professionally and not just released for no reason other than to make a sob story(imo). Good luck to Ganzi though.
Lol @ trying to get him to sign a contract to lessen his pay when his original contract had not yet expired. Yes, please Ganzi, volunteer to get paid less so we can save money.
On December 17 2012 02:20 Shocae wrote: Lol @ trying to get him to sign a contract to lessen his pay when his original contract had not yet expired. Yes, please Ganzi, volunteer to get paid less so we can save money.
This. What a joke. Complexity made themselves look retarded with this one. Good job.
Seriously, I don't see why in the hell would Ganzi lie about that. There is no point in doing so and he probably know better than anyone else after all the SlayerS drama that those shits is just not good for anyone. There is two possibilities :
-They really tried to modify is contract mid way cutting is salary in half, wich is really really sad and sneaky.
-There was a misunderstanding and Jason actually meant that he was cutting is salary after the renewal.
Since there is no way to know the absolute truth... I just hope that the next korean that is signed by CoL will read is contract thoroughly and will make sure that this shit will not happen in the future.
On December 17 2012 02:20 Shocae wrote: Lol @ trying to get him to sign a contract to lessen his pay when his original contract had not yet expired. Yes, please Ganzi, volunteer to get paid less so we can save money.
This. What a joke. Complexity made themselves look retarded with this one. Good job.
IF that were the case, I agree. Knowing what I know from people inside the situation, they were beginning to negotiate a contract extension. Contract talks can take a while, so negotiating 3-4 months in advance isn't a big deal.
Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
Possibly because they are getting payed less than Ganzi in the first place?
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
Well, if he is injured, I can see why he would get a pay cut at the renewal of his contract...
Problem is not that. The problem is that Ganzi is claiming that they asked him to accept a pay cut of half is salary because they were looking for another Korean, during is contract. Wich is disgusting. <
And seriously... if it was not true... why did Ganzi left with 3 or 4 months left on is actual contract, missing all those 4 months of salary?
On December 17 2012 02:40 Xalorian wrote: And seriously... if it was not true... why did Ganzi left with 3 or 4 months left on is actual contract, missing all those 4 months of salary?
It shows that contracts still mean shit in eSports. In complexity's news they said "We made Ganzi a contract offer for 2013 but were unable to agree on terms." This is obviously enough reason to void any current ongoing contracts. "Sign this contract or gtfo, we will not honor our previous contract", since, as you mentioned, there's no reason for Ganzi to agree to a termination of contract (he only loses salary and apparently wasnt in contact with another team which would sign him immediately).
It should be noted that GanZi also mentioned that other provisions such as providing medical expenses were still due, but later retracted his statement.
So in other words GanZi has no idea what is going on. An experienced team like complexity, hiring someone who has no name recognition(he's no MMA or Stephano where even when performing badly they have enough momentum to stay hyped for a while) will surely have performance clauses in their contracts. Although it would be nice to see a definite answer from coL.
On December 17 2012 02:20 Shocae wrote: Lol @ trying to get him to sign a contract to lessen his pay when his original contract had not yet expired. Yes, please Ganzi, volunteer to get paid less so we can save money.
or you don't actually understand. at all
in some cases you're not going to be able to sign a contract easily when the original contract expire_d_ (i.e. other teams, etc)
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
the question is, how much were they paid in the first place in comparison to ganzi before in form and now
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
Well, if he is injured, I can see why he would get a pay cut at the renewal of his contract...
Problem is not that. The problem is that Ganzi is claiming that they asked him to accept a pay cut of half is salary because they were looking for another Korean, during is contract. Wich is disgusting. <
And seriously... if it was not true... why did Ganzi left with 3 or 4 months left on is actual contract, missing all those 4 months of salary?
"team decided that they wanted to sign a more famous and skilled player" during what ganzi said "but offered to include provisions that would return him to his previous amount should he return to full-time play." Maybe a communication error? zzz
On December 17 2012 02:06 Finnz wrote: The thing is, im not being funny but what CoL players have been doing well? i dont recall really anyone from CoL putting up really great results this past year in major tournaments anyway. I feel quite sorry for Ganzi, he is such a nice guy and i hope he returns back to his old self and finds a new team soon.
To be fair, Heart stayed in Code S and GSL much longer than Ganzi. I used to love Ganzi and he was one of my favorite players when he was on SlayerS. But to be perfectly honest, if I were CoL I would definitely be looking to downgrade his salary, given his recent trend in performances and with injury there's no reason to believe he's going to improve.
On December 17 2012 01:51 crbox wrote: There's actually not information for us to really judge who's right / wrong. Seems like GanZi was so hurt by something Lake said, he made a statement on it online. Now I can only imagine what Lake said was pretty harsh, otherwise it's a pretty dumb move by GanZi. We'll see when we get more details.
Yes, Ganzi asked why he was offered a lower salary, and Jason Lake told him that he wasn't good enough + he wasn't that young anymore. Ganzi didn't like those words and decided to whine.
I mean this sucks for Ganzi but meanwhile much better players are slaving away in ESF teams getting paid little or nothing. I wonder if the double world champion PartinG even has a salary. So while I can sympathize with him, if he can't perform due to an injury I don't see why he should be getting paid a lot of money. ( I have no idea how much he was making of course )
If It's true that CoL wanted to void his current contract and lower his pay effective immediately instead of waiting until it expired that's pretty fucked up, I guess. I doubt Ganzi can find another team easily looking at the current list of teamless players, teams just aren't really recruiting in general anymore. Number of " Pro-gamers " is going to have to downsize. I feel like he would have been better off staying on CoL for less than leaving the team expecting equal pay to what he was making before somewhere else, cause that's just not going to happen.
Don't be surprised if he ends up retiring if he can't find another team to take him for any substantial amount, once you've tasted the money It's hard to go back to being a ESF player getting paid nothing.
Guess what, after this, does he hope that any team will pick him up? Doesnt matter if that was fair or not (unless he want some court justice, but as he said himself, contract isnt on his side), he just made things not in a professional manner.
It's just Ganzi -_- coL should wait til 2013 when the contract expires and kick Ganzi without offering him any more in 2013. Ganzi's performance really bad and his injures are still pulling him down. IMO foreigner teams are not where u can join, receive money, no performance and wait for ur injures get cured.
On December 17 2012 02:40 Xalorian wrote: And seriously... if it was not true... why did Ganzi left with 3 or 4 months left on is actual contract, missing all those 4 months of salary?
It shows that contracts still mean shit in eSports. In complexity's news they said "We made Ganzi a contract offer for 2013 but were unable to agree on terms." This is obviously enough reason to void any current ongoing contracts. "Sign this contract or gtfo, we will not honor our previous contract", since, as you mentioned, there's no reason for Ganzi to agree to a termination of contract (he only loses salary and apparently wasnt in contact with another team which would sign him immediately).
I'm pretty sure contractual law applies as long as the subject matter is legal...If the contract is truly not being honored Ganzi could sue for non performance and have a pretty easy case, at least in the states. The question then becomes, is it monetarily worth it and would the case be strong enough to get lawyers involved. Depends on what the contract says, if all they did was say, "sign this new contract, it's the only way you will get resigned next year" then they didn't do anything wrong. But complexity is still legally bound to perform under the original contract though even if he doesn't agree to the new one.
I think Ganzi will regret leaving complexity. I don't think he'll find a team offering as much compared to what Complexity was, even with the salary cut.
...unless he can get back up to Code S level and heal from his injuries.
That sucks for Ganzi, but when you can't get those results, you can't expect to maintain the same level of compensation. The last thing we'd want is players who were good years ago holding on to inflated salaries when their performances have lagged behind.
On December 17 2012 05:31 StarStruck wrote: This is none of our business. "He said; she said." I don't care. GL finding another team GanZi.
Both sides are essentially saying the same thing though. Seems like something was lost in translation to Ganzi. Nice to see this handled maturely, good luck to both parties.
Pretty brilliant of Ganzi to take this to the forums, he knows they are packed with "Koreans can do no wrong" fanboys. Just play the "evil foreign team preying on poor Korean progameru" card and get infinite sympathy. And complaining about the conditions of foreign teams? I guess he prefers 12 hours of practice a day with no salary and few opportunities to being flown around the world on someone else's dime? If this were a foreigner, people would be screaming 'entitled' from the rooftops.
On December 17 2012 05:31 StarStruck wrote: This is none of our business. "He said; she said." I don't care. GL finding another team GanZi.
I agree, though presumably it was Ganzi's coming to ESFI with his complaints that prompted the story, meaning Ganzi effectively made it our business. I don't care to judge one way or another on the incomplete picture of the negotiations, but I cant help but feel negative about how Ganzi presents his side of the story and that he presented it at all.
On December 17 2012 06:16 Blennd wrote: Pretty brilliant of Ganzi to take this to the forums, he knows they are packed with "Koreans can do no wrong" fanboys. Just play the "evil foreign team preying on poor Korean progameru" card and get infinite sympathy. And complaining about the conditions of foreign teams? I guess he prefers 12 hours of practice a day with no salary and few opportunities to being flown around the world on someone else's dime? If this were a foreigner, people would be screaming 'entitled' from the rooftops.
If you actually bothered to read the comments you'd find that they are in fact incredibly biased towards col, not ganzi.
On December 17 2012 05:26 dOraWa wrote: 0 results Injuries (and therefore unlikely future results)
Seems reasonable to take a pay cut...
if Ganzi has 0 results then noone except people who won major tournaments before have "results"
The thing is he used to have results... he used to be in Code S and was actually one of the more respected Terrans in a time of many GSL Terrans. He left SlayerS for coL pretty much for money it seems and his performance has drastically gone down. I'm sure he's way underperformed from what coL originally expected of him a pay cut is reasonable when there are players who don't even have salaries.
In Korea great care is taken to never offend or degrade someone. For example, if a Korean team were offering a smaller contract, they would probably lie and tell the person they HAD to because of less funding from sponsors, and that their was no other choice and wish they could do more, and probably offer a list of each player they were cutting to offer proof (even if unrelated to his contract). They would give every reason possible outside of point out a lack of performance. In American, and to a lesser extent, European culture- there is much less thought given to pride or emotions. He was probably just shocked to see it discussed so openly.
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
They're still playing full time and not dropping out of tournaments due to injury. According to Complexity's statement, the reason they wanted to cut Ganzi's pay was because he wasn't playing full time anymore, not because he wasn't posting results. It was even mentioned that he'd go back to his usual pay whenever he went back to playing full time. And that makes sense. If you went from full time to part time, or went on disability, would you expect to make the same amount of money as you did before?
On December 17 2012 02:36 Dontkillme wrote: Wait a minute, there are players that aren't even going to foreign tourneys and they are still getting paid... GanZi just because he has wrist injury and can't perform like fucking Mvp or Innovation doesn't mean that his salary should be slashed in half. There are so many other complexity players that are equally or even more bad than Ganzi and yet I don't hear any of them getting a pay cut. WTF
Or, they got paycut but they know they deserve it, so they don't talk about it? You think Huk still receives 6 figures number right now? Or Puma still receives his same old salary as 1 year ago? I don't think so. It depends on the content of the contract, but it's normal that if you don't perform well as before, you got a cut, that's how real world works.
From whats currently said, I would side with Ganzi. Negotiating a contract 3 months in advance for a lesser salary seems a bit odd. I think less of complexity now....
On December 17 2012 07:29 aka_star wrote: From whats currently said, I would side with Ganzi. Negotiating a contract 3 months in advance for a lesser salary seems a bit odd. I think less of complexity now....
Sometimes contract extensions are done far in advance, sometimes a deal gets done right before it expires. Can you explain how it's odd?
Ganzi hasn't been performing at a high level for a long time now so Jason Lake's statement looks fairly reasonable.
At the same time, I can understand Ganzi's perspective. A 50% pay cut would suck no matter where you worked. He's going to have to work extra hard now to find a new team as I doubt the demand for his services is very high right now. He's going to need to prove himself if he wants to get back to where he was.
the other thing is why don't teams support their players through injuries? lots of people in this thread throwing around the "it's a business" stuff, yet i believe that it's bad business to kick your man while he's down. and yes cutting salary in half BEFORE contract has finished, while your player is injured, is kicking him while he's down. and so it seems ganazi is hurt by this treatment, it's possible that he wasn't looking around for another team and did not expect to have the rug pulled out from under him.
Complexity thought they were buying a Code S level Terran who would win them championships. Instead they got a Code B player who often lost to foreigners and won nothing. It's normal that they didn't want to keep paying him the same salary. This would be the same in any sport.
On December 17 2012 11:34 sitromit wrote: Complexity thought they were buying a Code S level Terran who would win them championships. Instead they got a Code B player who often lost to foreigners and won nothing. It's normal that they didn't want to keep paying him the same salary. This would be the same in any sport.
You don't know anything about his salary nor Complexity's expectations from Ganzi, right? Ganzi wasn't really Code S level when he got picked up if I recall correctly.
On December 17 2012 11:34 sitromit wrote: Complexity thought they were buying a Code S level Terran who would win them championships. Instead they got a Code B player who often lost to foreigners and won nothing. It's normal that they didn't want to keep paying him the same salary. This would be the same in any sport.
The issue here is whether they wanted to change his CURRENT contract or was it just for his upcoming contract. Most sports teams get stuck with 'bad' contracts as well when a player underperforms.
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
On December 16 2012 18:28 Talin wrote: I feel that, lacking information from an objective source that would point to the contrary, a player is always right - no player would make something up that would potentially make his career difficult in the future.
Unfortunately, the players must learn that when it comes to conflicts with management, there really is no hope to gain anything in the media. The management will just come out with some neatly presented spin story that everybody else will confirm because it's in their interest to do so.
this. I'm not a fan of ganzi at all but what this man(or woman) says is true.
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
On December 16 2012 18:28 Talin wrote: I feel that, lacking information from an objective source that would point to the contrary, a player is always right - no player would make something up that would potentially make his career difficult in the future.
Unfortunately, the players must learn that when it comes to conflicts with management, there really is no hope to gain anything in the media. The management will just come out with some neatly presented spin story that everybody else will confirm because it's in their interest to do so.
this. I'm not a fan of ganzi at all but what this man(or woman) says is true.
hahahahaha
no one's perfect or fully rational at decision making, players make poor long term decisions all the time.
esp in traditional sports where athletes get emotional and think getting their side of the story out there and talking to media is more important than shutting up and keeping themselves employable.
of course, this doesn't necessarily make them less admirable from a fan perspective - fans might even appreciate players who speak their minds at negative cost to themselves. but saying players would never hurt their value because they are rational is idiotic.
On December 17 2012 11:34 sitromit wrote: Complexity thought they were buying a Code S level Terran who would win them championships. Instead they got a Code B player who often lost to foreigners and won nothing. It's normal that they didn't want to keep paying him the same salary. This would be the same in any sport.
You don't know anything about his salary nor Complexity's expectations from Ganzi, right? Ganzi wasn't really Code S level when he got picked up if I recall correctly.
Ganzi had just fallen to Code A when he got picked up and got back into Code S right after. Then he fell of completely, and his results kept getting worse and worse. Looking at Complexity's statement, it's easy to see that they were expecting more from him in terms of performance.
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
Interesting. My impression has always been that the new contract would come into play after being signed, meaning that the pay cut would be pretty much immediate, unless stated otherwise in the contract of course But I don't know much about contracts, so oh well haha
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
pretty sure they wanted to decrease his salary in the middle of his contract, its standard practice amongst pro teams. he probably didnt want to accept the new terms and decided to leave instead. alot of teams do this whenever theyre trying to sign new players and dont have enough budget, its a win/win situation for them.
Ah tough, korean players! They left korean teams chasing big bucks in foreign teams but didn't realise things operate differently in the west. I don't really have much sympathy.
Its going to be hard for Ganzi to find a team. There's still a large number teamless Korean players. Maybe he has a shot with Axiom though (aka Slayers refugee camp).
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
Interesting. My impression has always been that the new contract would come into play after being signed, meaning that the pay cut would be pretty much immediate, unless stated otherwise in the contract of course But I don't know much about contracts, so oh well haha
Well I would not be happy if it would be like last day of my contract (if I would be pro that is) and then get even worse contract.
This way how coL gave more time for Ganzi to show results and get better offer from coL or other team. Now Ganzi had really only two options:
1. Take pay cut starting from 2013 but stay in team 2. Don't take pay cut but leave after March 2013 (coL certainly would not sign him anymore)
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
Interesting. My impression has always been that the new contract would come into play after being signed, meaning that the pay cut would be pretty much immediate, unless stated otherwise in the contract of course But I don't know much about contracts, so oh well haha
Well I would not be happy if it would be like last day of my contract (if I would be pro that is) and then get even worse contract.
This way how coL gave more time for Ganzi to show results and get better offer from coL or other team. Now Ganzi had really only two options:
1. Take pay cut starting from 2013 but stay in team 2. Don't take pay cut but leave after March 2013 (coL certainly would not sign him anymore)
Yea that's usually the way things worked I thought.
You either go for the long term contract at a lower pay with more money in the long term, or you sit out the contract with higher pay but at a risk of not being able to sign a contract at all and be released (less money long term unless you find another place which can pay you).
On December 17 2012 12:10 lord_nibbler wrote: Wait, did coL really wanted to change the salary halfway into the contract length or are we talking about the new offer for two month from now?
Im wondering the same thing. If its the former than wow. If not then he shouldn't be hurt cause he hasn't been performing.
I'm pretty sure that even if GanZi accepted the new offer, he would still be paid the rate of his existing contract until it expired. However, it's not too uncommon for the team and player to just part ways immediately if they know that the next contract cannot be negotiated - it allows the player to immediately begin looking for a new home and the team frees up some budget after neither side really has an incentive to continue their partnership.
pretty sure they wanted to decrease his salary in the middle of his contract, its standard practice amongst pro teams. he probably didnt want to accept the new terms and decided to leave instead. alot of teams do this whenever theyre trying to sign new players and dont have enough budget, its a win/win situation for them.
Especially when GanZi wasn't playing up to full capacity and claiming injury was effecting it.
Yeah, contract negotiating in all sports is a dog-eat-dog world. I'd say they didn't get their expectations from GanZi, and thus they wouldn't pay him more or equal to what he deserved...doesn't seem like a big deal even if there was demanding going on.
I think it's simple. As a player if somebody comes forward saying that you're not as valuable to them anymore, you'd be hurt. I think Ganzi was hurt. I don't think coL was trying to cheat him (which is what some people here seem to be perpetuating) but that he simply wasn't worth the value that he was when he was picked up. Lake probably gave it to him straight up, and Ganzi didn't like that.
It sucks to not be performing as well as a player, and I think Ganzi's feelings stem from his own inabilities to perform of late. I feel for him, but that's just how it is.
On December 17 2012 12:59 Azzur wrote: Ah tough, korean players! They left korean teams chasing big bucks in foreign teams but didn't realise things operate differently in the west. I don't really have much sympathy.
Guess you'll be happy when all the Koreans give up on joining foreign teams who then become unable to compete with the best and drop their SC2 teams then?
Why would Ganzi lie about this and destroy his career if this was uncovered? His english skills are better than the average korean and I'm sure that he understood the manager correctly, since it makes a lot more sense for him being kicked out of the team now instead of when his "better paid" contract ended. Ruthless organizations like complexity make it clear that they don't have their heart in this.
On December 17 2012 17:24 enCore- wrote: Why would Ganzi lie about this and destroy his career if this was uncovered? His english skills are better than the average korean and I'm sure that he understood the manager correctly, since it makes a lot more sense for him being kicked out of the team now instead of when his "better paid" contract ended. Ruthless organizations like complexity make it clear that they don't have their heart in this.
All I can say is don't mess with Jason Lake, he's a lawyer, and pretty passoniate about esports. That being said, I feel bad for Ganzi, but I don't think it was too unfair for him. Then again, really need to full details of the contract old and new to get a better judgment (though that won't happen).
Just best of luck to Ganzi on what he plans to do next and put this behind him.
On December 17 2012 17:24 enCore- wrote: Why would Ganzi lie about this and destroy his career if this was uncovered? His english skills are better than the average korean and I'm sure that he understood the manager correctly, since it makes a lot more sense for him being kicked out of the team now instead of when his "better paid" contract ended. Ruthless organizations like complexity make it clear that they don't have their heart in this.
On December 16 2012 20:16 schmutttt wrote: How the hell can Ganzi bitch about contract status if what Lake said is true?
Sick of Koreans thinking they can just walk into western teams and command good salaries/conditions with minimal results/showings.
ganzi has the same neck injury as MVP IIRC meaning he has to spend a crap ton of his time not playing or he wouldn't be any good to the team at all when you get injured in a professional sport, the team takes care of you and finds you a physical therapist, etc. even if it's a college team, most of the time they front your bills and thats just understood. if you want the talent you have to be willing to take care of it.
ganzi also has had minimal results because over the last four months he hasn't really played many tournaments. the one's he did play in he did okay (he is off and on.) for example, in iron squid he beat fntic J, hyun and and a few other really solid playres
On December 17 2012 17:24 enCore- wrote: Why would Ganzi lie about this and destroy his career if this was uncovered? His english skills are better than the average korean and I'm sure that he understood the manager correctly, since it makes a lot more sense for him being kicked out of the team now instead of when his "better paid" contract ended. Ruthless organizations like complexity make it clear that they don't have their heart in this.
I find this hard to believe, having heard Jason Lake talk about Esports and how he talks abouts Esports and business. Jason Lake has admitted to spending a quarter of a million dollars of his own money on starting Complexity. He does care about his players, but he also needs to make the team work.
I will say that Jason Lake has a very no nonsense way of talking about business, contracts and he fully admits he does not have a lot of patience for “BS”. He is an attorney, after all and a lot of them know when they are getting BSed(I know, I work for them) I could see how that sort of approach through a language and cultural filter could leave Ganzie with his feelings being hurt. But in the end, I say, as always "Life is hard, get a helmet."
At the end of the day, Ganzie was not doing very well and its not a shock that his contract go downgraded. Jason Lake has said “its hard for SC2 players right now. It’s a buyers market for teams, which is not great for players”. So go the growing pains of SC2. Some players are going to fade away.
On December 17 2012 17:24 enCore- wrote: Why would Ganzi lie about this and destroy his career if this was uncovered? His english skills are better than the average korean and I'm sure that he understood the manager correctly, since it makes a lot more sense for him being kicked out of the team now instead of when his "better paid" contract ended. Ruthless organizations like complexity make it clear that they don't have their heart in this.
Just...stop.
"Ruthless organization"? Are you fucking kidding me?
Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly.
EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
Do you wanna keep feeding money to Ganzi when he cant play full time? Heck he could had taken pay cut and fix his injury and then come back with better results and higher salary.
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly.
EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
untrue if a player gets hurt the team can cut the player and they don't get paid beyond that point. For alot of players i.e. jeter/a-rod the team won't cut them because if they are able to play again that season or the next season the team will want them around but, for your average player teams won't have a probably cutting them. In some cases i.e. NFL a players medical costs aren't even covered for injuries they incurred while playing (It's based on number of years played every X amount of years gets you X more coverage) So a rookie who blows out his knee in the first game and gets cut will not only not get paid the remainder of the contract they could also end up having to pay their own medical expenses.
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly.
EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
The reason why general managers of sports teams don't reduce an injured players salary is because they can't--it's a contract. Instead, contracts are often structured to have both "guaranteed" salary and performance bonuses. But any sports player that is injury plagued will take a financial hit when their contract is up and they're in negotiations. Injuries are one of the major reasons that an NFL player's average carer is only about 3 years. That's just the reality of the sporting world, it's not solely about talent, it's also about durability. An injury-prone player is more of a risk to whoever's paying them and their contract will have to reflect that. You could get an amazing talent on the field, or absolutely nothing at all.
Luckily, because SC2 isn't exactly a sport, the people in charge of managing the team don't have to worry as much about predicting injuries and factoring that into contracts.
Wow some people really don't get it... in sports like football, hockey and baketball for example, the players are paid by an insurance company in case of injuries. It's part of collective agreements! Amazing? Nah, just logic.
The guy with the rookie example.. wake up... people would not play football if they could end up being injured on the first game of their career and having to pay for medical treatment and not being paid their contract money. When a player gets injured, he's actually covered and gets paid. Get your shit straight.
Some hockey players currently playing in Europe due to NHL lockout are barely being paid because the teams are paying the insurance on their big ass NHL contracts in case they get injured. Let's say player X got 50M contract over the next 6 years in the NHL. He goes to play in Russia this season due to lockout, the team won't pay him much in salary because they will not only have to insure him in case of injuries in their league, they will also have to insure him on his 50M over 6 years NHL contract. None of these players would risk playing a game overseas if they could lose their guaranteed NHL money, not worth the risk.
Hopefuly that clarifies how pro sports work in case of injuries!?!
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If the contract was done right, there's no way Complexity could have reduced Ganzi's salary mid-contract, unless he was not fulfilling his side of the deal.. in which case they could offer him to void it or lower his salary. Not cool, but still legal if Ganzi was not fulfilling his part.
If they simply wanted to resign him after the contract expired at half the money, there's absolutly no problem with that at all, it's justified since Ganzi is not worth the same $ he was when they first signed him and he has no reason to complain about it.
I almost always trust the player testimony in cases like this. What does Ganzi have to gain by lying? Ending a contract with a gaming team on negative terms?
I'm sad to see things turn out this way. Ganzi, heal up that injury and wreck some face in HoS, please!
lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract) 2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is. 3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too. I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs.
On December 18 2012 15:22 Shinta) wrote: lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract) 2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is. 3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too. I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs.
Per my understanding, GanZi was claiming that he was asked to sign a new contract, before his contract ended, that would nullify the previous contract's clause. In other words, blackmail to lower his pay by 1/2 over the next 5 months because more "skilled koreans" were available at that price. In short, change after to before for your 1) point.
I could be wrong but this is why I am siding with GanZi on this.
On December 18 2012 11:48 docvoc wrote: Pretty much have to say that I see this in Ganzi's light and not CoL's. I really think the decision to decrease his salary by half is not only a poor choice, but is an insult to Ganzi's play. I can see where Lake is coming from, however that is an affront to Ganzi as a player and a person, not as a commodity. Not taking B.S. is one thing, but insinuating that he would hire more talented Korean talent is just an insult to Ganzi. I can see where Lake is coming from, but I think that was the wrong way to go about lowering Ganzi's pay because of an injury he can't control.
you can't control any injury... it's not Ganzi's fault but Ganzi can't hold up his end of the deal (to be a good Starcraft player) with his injury. I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Look at every other sports contract, if the player gets hurt, they don't get as big of a contract (if any)
That is not actually true. In most cases, when there is an injury, the managers are nice to the player and don't reduce it if they see that the player will recover in time (see Alex Rodriguez's injuries or Derek Jeeter's injuries with the Yankees). If the player cannot recover and plays not at 100% for a long time they will trade the player at a reduced rate to a team he would like to be on that will take said player. This is more like leaving Ganzi out to fend for himself, which is not something professional sports organizations take lightly.
EDIT: FUCK, THIS WAS MY 2K POST... I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A BAD JOKE -_-.
untrue if a player gets hurt the team can cut the player and they don't get paid beyond that point. For alot of players i.e. jeter/a-rod the team won't cut them because if they are able to play again that season or the next season the team will want them around but, for your average player teams won't have a probably cutting them. In some cases i.e. NFL a players medical costs aren't even covered for injuries they incurred while playing (It's based on number of years played every X amount of years gets you X more coverage) So a rookie who blows out his knee in the first game and gets cut will not only not get paid the remainder of the contract they could also end up having to pay their own medical expenses.
Depends on the sport and the league. Most leagues have guaranteed contracts.
On December 18 2012 15:22 Shinta) wrote: lol, imo this is only good for coL and only bad for GanZi.
1) If GanZi left because Lake tried to cut his salary after his contract were to expire, then GanZi is leaving free money that Lake wouldn't have been able to take away from him even if he tried (unless GanZi was not fulfilling his commitment to the contract) 2) GanZi was never an awesome player. He was a rising player in SlayerS, showing some good results but nothing too noteworthy. They picked him up because they could, and they also saw the potential in him, but it ended up not paying off in the slightest. They didn't really gain any benefit from having GanZi on their team, and how he's hurt and can't even play? I'd also be finding any way for me to try and convince GanZi to lessen the burden he is. 3) coL gets all the money back that they would normally be paying GanZi, so they can offer even more money to a new player, instead of just paying GanZi less, then paying extra costs to the new player, or only being able to offer a little bit less money to the new player.
GanZi, being what he is, has no right to be angry at anything. Nothing illegal has happened, nothing significant has happened. He was in a shitty situation so he tried something desperate which was opening up to the media and hoping to receive some pity prize, but that was quickly shot down too. I used to wish GanZi success, because I want eSports to grow and thus I want the pro scene to be awesome, but GanZi is looking to be on his way out. Unless he wants to fix up his act, I hope he decides to retire before anymore negativity occurs.
Per my understanding, GanZi was claiming that he was asked to sign a new contract, before his contract ended, that would nullify the previous contract's clause. In other words, blackmail to lower his pay by 1/2 over the next 5 months because more "skilled koreans" were available at that price. In short, change after to before for your 1) point.
I could be wrong but this is why I am siding with GanZi on this.
Even if you're asked to sign a new contract, you don't have to sign a new contract..... the reason is obvious.... YOU'RE ON CONTRACT... Even if he's threatened etc etc and put in a life and death situation, coL can't do anything bad to him legally. I doubt coL would try to physically harm and assess any personal assets of GanZi, so in the real world, GanZi is 100% safe from anything. If anything GanZi misunderstood, and/or was ignorant and ill-informed of his situation. In no way whatsoever is GanZi in the right here. Regardless of the point of view or the personal feelings you may have towards the situation, GanZi is taking the negative effects 100% of the way.
Sorry to say, but GanZi would probably destroy whole coL handily. Besides Heart there is no one close in skill... I'm not a huge fan of GanZi to begin with, but I'm in with him on that matter. If you make a contract and you have no matters in it about adjusting the salary or timeline you better keep that contract.
Can't say if it would be the case that GanZi would need to leave the team without the lower salary, but I strongly get the impression that this is the case. In my opinion just shows how bad of a contract was made. You should always be able to re-negotiate payments and other things made in the contract.
EPT
But I don't know much about contracts, so oh well haha
