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On November 23 2012 05:40 mishimaBeef wrote:
fungal is still going to be great vs a large warp in of zealots...
Just for fun I tried this out with a mate. You can actually start warp-in of the zealots and wait for a fungal to hit it, then transform the warp-prism to air and back to cancel the zealots for a full refund and no cooldown on gates and warp again. This lets you either get a bunch of zealots in fungal free, or just force zerg to burn fungals to waste energy. As a zerg DO NOT fungal warp-ins till they are complete if this change goes ahead.
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Wow, just looked at the top five korean players on the TLPD..so weird that 4/5 of them are zerg..and 3/5 foreigners are also zerg..its almost like their an op race or something, hmm??
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And the upcoming IEM tourney is half zerg in composition..and zergs have dominated in this seasons GSL..I feel like this all should tell us something..
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On November 23 2012 08:41 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:30 DeCoup wrote:On November 23 2012 05:40 mishimaBeef wrote:
fungal is still going to be great vs a large warp in of zealots... Just for fun I tried this out with a mate. You can actually start warp-in of the zealots and wait for a fungal to hit it, then transform the warp-prism to air and back to cancel the zealots for a full refund and no cooldown on gates and warp again. This lets you either get a bunch of zealots in fungal free, or just force zerg to burn fungals to waste energy. As a zerg DO NOT fungal warp-ins till they are complete if this change goes ahead. Sounds totally not worth it.
How is it not worth it? No cooldown wasted, no resources wasted, infestor burns energy.
Perhaps warp-in should be nerfed so that cancelled warp-ins still use up cooldown.
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On November 23 2012 09:51 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 09:46 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 08:41 monkybone wrote:On November 23 2012 08:30 DeCoup wrote:On November 23 2012 05:40 mishimaBeef wrote:
fungal is still going to be great vs a large warp in of zealots... Just for fun I tried this out with a mate. You can actually start warp-in of the zealots and wait for a fungal to hit it, then transform the warp-prism to air and back to cancel the zealots for a full refund and no cooldown on gates and warp again. This lets you either get a bunch of zealots in fungal free, or just force zerg to burn fungals to waste energy. As a zerg DO NOT fungal warp-ins till they are complete if this change goes ahead. Sounds totally not worth it. How is it not worth it? No cooldown wasted, no resources wasted, infestor burns energy. Perhaps warp-in should be nerfed so that cancelled warp-ins still use up cooldown. A warp prism is there to do damage, and wasting 75 energy does not seem worth it when you waste that much time by cancelling. Warp prism harass is always on a clock.
Yeah. If you're going to delay warp in Zealots, that means more Queen hits on the Warp Prism, more time for possible Infested Terran to spawn, more time for Lings/Corruptors to show up. Basically, WP harass is supposed to warp in a tonne of units and focus down a structure before the Zerg responds, not dance around with cute micro tricks.
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On November 23 2012 09:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 09:51 monkybone wrote:On November 23 2012 09:46 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 08:41 monkybone wrote:On November 23 2012 08:30 DeCoup wrote:On November 23 2012 05:40 mishimaBeef wrote:
fungal is still going to be great vs a large warp in of zealots... Just for fun I tried this out with a mate. You can actually start warp-in of the zealots and wait for a fungal to hit it, then transform the warp-prism to air and back to cancel the zealots for a full refund and no cooldown on gates and warp again. This lets you either get a bunch of zealots in fungal free, or just force zerg to burn fungals to waste energy. As a zerg DO NOT fungal warp-ins till they are complete if this change goes ahead. Sounds totally not worth it. How is it not worth it? No cooldown wasted, no resources wasted, infestor burns energy. Perhaps warp-in should be nerfed so that cancelled warp-ins still use up cooldown. A warp prism is there to do damage, and wasting 75 energy does not seem worth it when you waste that much time by cancelling. Warp prism harass is always on a clock. Yeah. If you're going to delay warp in Zealots, that means more Queen hits on the Warp Prism, more time for possible Infested Terran to spawn, more time for Lings/Corruptors to show up. Basically, WP harass is supposed to warp in a tonne of units and focus down a structure before the Zerg responds, not dance around with cute micro tricks.
If there is an infestor there to fungal warping in zealots then the warp prism has already failed doing damage. It's just a little trick to use if you find your opponent was prepared.
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Thank you blizzard. Now all us Zerg will die to speed prism late game. Now we can't even do weird infestor rushes to hold of Immortal allins.
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Sentry DT Archon allins incoming..
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it seems reasonable for ht's and ghosts, but why all psionic? if ghosts and hts become immune then they are a stronger counter to infestors and fungal so you might not even need the psionic nerf. Just make small energy based casters units immune to fungal (ht's/Ghost), and test that out before making all of psionic immune. Seems like blizz is rushing things.
On the issue of zergs whining of speed prisms, i think they just need to be a little less greedy and plant a bunch more spines/spores down and morph a few overseers around the map and their bases. Terrans have a much harder time dealing with mass overlord drops and nydus worms on there production and expansions and terrans have much slower production then zerg so i think the whining should be toned down a bit until zergs play a lot more games and use a lot more static defence and overseers. Use your fast units, creep, overlord spread and 5 or so overseers on the map to scout sneaky movement and prisms.
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On November 23 2012 08:03 Saigon2246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:18 Sissors wrote:On November 23 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race..  People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time. Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers? It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from the warp-prism in it's current form, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding? How would it be unkillable for zerg, while terran can deal fine against it without able to root it? (And no we dont use marines to kill speed prisms). But I agree, it is rather strange when I see pros playing horribly against speed prisms, guess it must be that some of them needs to getting used to it in combination with the stress of playing WCS. Because seriously a zerg who allowed over 5 times the same warp prism to make a drop directly in his main in exactly the same spot made me die a little. Anyway speed prism is not unkillable for zerg (for terran it effectively is, since vikings cant catch up with it). But even if it was, that isnt relevant. With the same logic speedlings are unkillable for terran, they outrun anything we can make. Is that a problem? Of course not, if the only thing a unit can do is running away, its use is kinda limitted. But of course, as you know, your argument is horribly flawed. A toss often cant afford to make 10 observers to cover every angle, a zerg can easily spread his overlords, which both cost no pop and are essentially free since he has them anyway. Of course I assume here we are far enough in the game that he made some corrupters, which essentially means he controls the sky. (Or he has no corrupters and the toss has no phoenix). (I kinda do agree that toss should make more observers against drops, then again they can warp in loads of units when the drop is happening). No, YOUR argument is horribly wrong. OMG, you protoss players are so biased. Warp Prisms are very good right now, they don't need any more buffs whatsoever. Also, why do you vindicate the right to posess an unfungalable drop tool while terran medivacs can be still fungaled? Truth is that you are so biased you don't even understand or just do not care about making the same spell to act one way in one matchup and totally differently in the other, now how silly game-design that would be. Going down the way by that logic, how bout I say, templars shouldn't be able to stop terran drops, I get feedbacked and all my troops just instantly die, now how stupid is that? Templars are too good, nerf those fuckers! I imagine you would be completely outraged, if you heard such a thing. Now tell me, how is a templar feedbacking and killing a full energy medivac full of troops any different from a warp prism getting fungaled and dye. Can't you see how stupid your argument is?
I'm sorry, my sarcasm detector is off, are you being serious or is this some kind of joke?
Your whole argument is nothing but Terran bias, literally you only complained by comparing to Protoss to Terran and saying that Warp Prisms are great, you can't really get any more biased than that. How can you call someones argument horribly wrong, yet fail to counter a single one of his points?
...Nah it must be a joke, wp, you got me.
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According to some of you, fungal is the ONLY way to kill a warp prism...
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i think warp prism storm drops will be sick vers infestor broodlord. like the good old days in BW
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On November 23 2012 10:13 IMLyte wrote:
Thank you blizzard. Now all us Zerg will die to speed prism late game. Now we can't even do weird infestor rushes to hold of Immortal allins.
Yeah its not like you can use overseers for detection and then kill the dts or zealots with lings, roaches and queens, and the warp prism with corrupters or mutas..that would be impossible!
And why cant you just root down the immortals to slow the rush down, and then get proper defense out in time to take the rush on??
Zergs have become way too reliant on one spell, and its not because they dont have other options, its because its just way easier to use and stronger than the alternatives. That doesnt mean you cant accomplish the same task with a little more micro intensive work (bc come on, saying fg uses micro skills is a joke)
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On November 23 2012 12:50 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 10:13 IMLyte wrote:
Thank you blizzard. Now all us Zerg will die to speed prism late game. Now we can't even do weird infestor rushes to hold of Immortal allins. Yeah its not like you can use overseers for detection and then kill the dts or zealots with lings, roaches and queens, and the warp prism with corrupters or mutas..that would be impossible! And why cant you just root down the immortals to slow the rush down, and then get proper defense out in time to take the rush on?? Zergs have become way too reliant on one spell, and its not because they dont have other options, its because its just way easier to use and stronger than the alternatives. That doesnt mean you cant accomplish the same task with a little more micro intensive work (bc come on, saying fg uses micro skills is a joke)
Well put. I think many Zerg have become lazy and/or very narrow minded in teching up to Broodlord Infestor without giving it a second thought. Hopefully these changes will fix this mindset. In fact, I just watched a Code A match with MMA (T) versus Byul (Z) where I have to give respect to Byul for being very cost efficient with his units winning it 2-0: He kept denying drops and flanking Terran engagments in the center. He probably made a total of 6 infestors the entire game, but really won it with harassement denial, ultra, muta, lings and baneling land mines. This is how the game SHOULD be played by a Zerg and not simply a-move (for lack of a better term). It is obvious Zerg units have this capability, but infestors have made many players these days mindless drones - no pun intended.
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Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
Are they being serious? lol
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On November 23 2012 14:02 Freezd wrote:Show nested quote +Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues. Are they being serious? lol
No they're completely right and completely serious.
There is not "significant" balance issues yet. All 3 races are still winning major tournaments and all 3 races are still placing at all levels of tournaments.
Yes in some tournaments like WCS there was like 16 zergs and 4 terrans but then in the GSL right now we have a bunch of terrans finishing off. It's skewed here and there but in the overall scheme of things there really is almost-equal representation of all races in tournaments.
Now if every tournament in the last 2 months was 16 zergs qualifying and 2 terrans and it was only getting worse from there and not evening out or improving then that would be a "significant" balance issue.
What they are trying to fix is that we're seeing a significant issue with late game PvZ and TvZ where the other two races are simply unable to deal with broodlord/infestor on regular basis even with preparation. That is something that calls for a change and they're trying to find a way to change it without affecting the early/mid game.
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If they're making prisms unfungalable they might as well do the same to medivacs. I mean, they serve the same purpose for their respective armies. I think people are being a bit irrational about how much this will harm zergs. As a zerg player it's impossible to ignore the strength of zerg as race, and forcing the pros to alter their play (which yes, will result in them losing a bit more until they get a feel for the changes) I'm sure zerg winrate will go back to about equal to the other races.
tl:dr People are overreacting to a change that will more than likely help all matchups. Hell, if it somehow makes zergs go to <10% winrates then zerg will get buffed again and then you can be happy again.
P.S. I've been a zerg player since before you guys were born.
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On November 22 2012 06:32 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:52 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop. Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile. Archons will still be unable to cross Broodlings for the most part, same with Templar. Lategame effects should be small. I'd prefer a different change. No stun for air f.e.
Oh yeah cause then mutas would be way too good ZvZ and you would have to go hydras
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EPT
