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On November 23 2012 03:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:08 aZealot wrote:
So much Zerg qq...
Any more feedback from people who have actually played the map? Specifically Protoss?
Most of the feedback thus far, and it's a little thin on the ground, appears to be Terran. Well, I'm not good with Protoss, but I'm experimenting with DT Prism in ZvP. Basically they all die to losing a crucial base at some point, but it's nonsense, they all have no clue how to deal with it or don't even know that fungal doesn't work against DT/Prism any longer... I guess this will need a few months of Pro-Testing until we know what is possible and what isn't. Still gonna post the replays, to show you what I mean... http://drop.sc/277836http://drop.sc/277835http://drop.sc/277834http://drop.sc/277833http://drop.sc/277832
Thanks Big J, I'll have a look over the weekend (probably Sunday) when I log in for some games (maybe even on the test map). I'm not sure how I feel about the changes - and the Psionic attribute to WP and Sentry may be a bit much (but if they are reclassified will that cause other problems? I don't know). Also, HT/DT/Archon/MSC being immune may increase the control demanded of a Protoss player. It would be quite easy to move forward or around with these units while your support units are fungalled and stationary. It's an interesting change from Blizzard and more testing is really required.
The main objection, at least for me, is that it is hard to get from a viewer perspective. It's not immediately clear why some units ride out the fungal and some don't. FF breakage by massive, in that sense, is clearer for a spectator as you see these big units just break FF. Whereas here, it's a mix of ground and air that is immune and this is harder to 'get'.
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I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race..
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On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race..
People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come.
That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here.
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spines + spores or roach/ling squads + queens should be able to deal with drops still... fungal is still going to be great vs a large warp in of zealots... except, now the protoss can actually work longer while having more options to run away... yes zerg can still get corruptors out... queens can still target down prisms... but if the prism sees trouble, it can now run away instead of being stuck from fungals
this makes the matchup more interesting imo... i don't believe protoss had too many great harassment options in the mid game previously... dt was ok, but its still a risk
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On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here.
Many a progamer has come out and said that Zerg is too powerful, specifically in the late game. I'm not sure what tournaments you think high level Zerg players are doing poorly at, but I certainly haven't seen any.
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On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here.
Sorry but 3-3 Cracklings are perfectly able to deal with 10 Zealots who won't even be 3-3-3.
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On November 23 2012 04:04 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:45 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 03:08 aZealot wrote:
So much Zerg qq...
Any more feedback from people who have actually played the map? Specifically Protoss?
Most of the feedback thus far, and it's a little thin on the ground, appears to be Terran. Well, I'm not good with Protoss, but I'm experimenting with DT Prism in ZvP. Basically they all die to losing a crucial base at some point, but it's nonsense, they all have no clue how to deal with it or don't even know that fungal doesn't work against DT/Prism any longer... I guess this will need a few months of Pro-Testing until we know what is possible and what isn't. Still gonna post the replays, to show you what I mean... http://drop.sc/277836http://drop.sc/277835http://drop.sc/277834http://drop.sc/277833http://drop.sc/277832 Thanks Big J, I'll have a look over the weekend (probably Sunday) when I log in for some games (maybe even on the test map). I'm not sure how I feel about the changes - and the Psionic attribute to WP and Sentry may be a bit much (but if they are reclassified will that cause other problems? I don't know). Also, HT/DT/Archon/MSC being immune may increase the control demanded of a Protoss player. It would be quite easy to move forward or around with these units while your support units are fungalled and stationary. It's an interesting change from Blizzard and more testing is really required. The main objection, at least for me, is that it is hard to get from a viewer perspective. It's not immediately clear why some units ride out the fungal and some don't. FF breakage by massive, in that sense, is clearer for a spectator as you see these big units just break FF. Whereas here, it's a mix of ground and air that is immune and this is harder to 'get'.
This here.
I know they are in a hard place (mainly because of their own ideas, but also because of unforeseeable consequences) but if it want's to be spectator friendly they need to make it simpler.
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On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here.
lings are not designed for straight up fights, so ofc they wont beat zealots , which are designed to kill them.
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Blizzard I absolutely LOVE what you have done to terran with that ONE upgrade on the raven...tried it out today maybe 10 games and you have made at least for me so much fun to play again. Sky terran completely viable in all MU, in HOTS with battle helions i feel this will translate into a build that I can justify going opening reactor into viking vs zerg utilizing their transform with the aoe seeker missle and really open up finally all of the tech paths and every single unit being viable at all points of the game (context dependant) Thank you for fixing terran OMG I love you now jsut get on that pvz and wow this game will be getting one step closer to brood war balance
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On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here.
You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time.
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Make Medivac Psionic. Best zerg nerf ever.
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On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time.
Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers?
It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from the warp-prism in it's current form, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding?
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On November 23 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time. Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers? It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from warp-prisms at the moment, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding?
Ok, first of all please dont try to compare overlords to observers..not even close to the same.. Second of all, medivacs can still be fungaled, and only can carry so many units, so their perceivable threat is much less to that of a warp prism, which can warp in an entire army. Third, no its not very often that I see late game drops taking out key zerg structures and causing significant damage that cripples the zerg, that happens in the early/mid game. Maybe if the zergs would leave some roaming anti-air in their bases instead of relying on infestors to deal with the wp they would better be able to combat the threat. And top level zergs dont take much wp damage when they set up their detection properly..
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On November 23 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time. Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers? It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from the warp-prism in it's current form, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding?
How would it be unkillable for zerg, while terran can deal fine against it without able to root it? (And no we dont use marines to kill speed prisms). But I agree, it is rather strange when I see pros playing horribly against speed prisms, guess it must be that some of them needs to getting used to it in combination with the stress of playing WCS. Because seriously a zerg who allowed over 5 times the same warp prism to make a drop directly in his main in exactly the same spot made me die a little.
Anyway speed prism is not unkillable for zerg (for terran it effectively is, since vikings cant catch up with it). But even if it was, that isnt relevant. With the same logic speedlings are unkillable for terran, they outrun anything we can make. Is that a problem? Of course not, if the only thing a unit can do is running away, its use is kinda limitted.
But of course, as you know, your argument is horribly flawed. A toss often cant afford to make 10 observers to cover every angle, a zerg can easily spread his overlords, which both cost no pop and are essentially free since he has them anyway. Of course I assume here we are far enough in the game that he made some corrupters, which essentially means he controls the sky. (Or he has no corrupters and the toss has no phoenix).
(I kinda do agree that toss should make more observers against drops, then again they can warp in loads of units when the drop is happening).
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On November 23 2012 06:43 Thermodynamic wrote:
Blizzard I absolutely LOVE what you have done to terran with that ONE upgrade on the raven...tried it out today maybe 10 games and you have made at least for me so much fun to play again. Sky terran completely viable in all MU, in HOTS with battle helions i feel this will translate into a build that I can justify going opening reactor into viking vs zerg utilizing their transform with the aoe seeker missle and really open up finally all of the tech paths and every single unit being viable at all points of the game (context dependant) Thank you for fixing terran OMG I love you now jsut get on that pvz and wow this game will be getting one step closer to brood war balance
Funny thing is that Blizzard had incorporated a much stronger and better buff for the raven in Hots for a short time with the increased movement and acceleration speed and most importantly 100 energy hsms. This would indeed make Sky Terran pretty viable.
Also note that the ground attack of BCs is still buffed to their old DPS which is 10 instead of 8 per shot.
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On November 23 2012 07:32 AbideWithMe wrote:
Also note that the ground attack of BCs is still buffed to their old DPS which is 10 instead of 8 per shot.
I thought that was patched, but they still have their 100-energy Yamato.
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On November 23 2012 07:35 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:32 AbideWithMe wrote:
Also note that the ground attack of BCs is still buffed to their old DPS which is 10 instead of 8 per shot. I thought that was patched, but they still have their 100-energy Yamato.
Just checked. Yes, it's true. Ground Dps is back nerfed. I looked for it in the balance notes but couldn't find anything and the liquipedia is still at 10 damage.
Pretty disappointing. :-/
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On November 23 2012 07:18 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time. Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers? It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from the warp-prism in it's current form, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding? How would it be unkillable for zerg, while terran can deal fine against it without able to root it? (And no we dont use marines to kill speed prisms). But I agree, it is rather strange when I see pros playing horribly against speed prisms, guess it must be that some of them needs to getting used to it in combination with the stress of playing WCS. Because seriously a zerg who allowed over 5 times the same warp prism to make a drop directly in his main in exactly the same spot made me die a little. Anyway speed prism is not unkillable for zerg (for terran it effectively is, since vikings cant catch up with it). But even if it was, that isnt relevant. With the same logic speedlings are unkillable for terran, they outrun anything we can make. Is that a problem? Of course not, if the only thing a unit can do is running away, its use is kinda limitted. But of course, as you know, your argument is horribly flawed. A toss often cant afford to make 10 observers to cover every angle, a zerg can easily spread his overlords, which both cost no pop and are essentially free since he has them anyway. Of course I assume here we are far enough in the game that he made some corrupters, which essentially means he controls the sky. (Or he has no corrupters and the toss has no phoenix). (I kinda do agree that toss should make more observers against drops, then again they can warp in loads of units when the drop is happening).
No, YOUR argument is horribly wrong. OMG, you protoss players are so biased. Warp Prisms are very good right now, they don't need any more buffs whatsoever. Also, why do you vindicate the right to posess an unfungalable drop tool while terran medivacs can be still fungaled? Truth is that you are so biased you don't even understand or just do not care about making the same spell to act one way in one matchup and totally differently in the other, now how silly game-design that would be.
Going down the way by that logic, how bout I say, templars shouldn't be able to stop terran drops, I get feedbacked and all my troops just instantly die, now how stupid is that? Templars are too good, nerf those fuckers! I imagine you would be completely outraged, if you heard such a thing. Now tell me, how is a templar feedbacking and killing a full energy medivac full of troops any different from a warp prism getting fungaled and dye. Can't you see how stupid your argument is?
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On November 23 2012 08:03 Saigon2246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:18 Sissors wrote:On November 23 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 23 2012 07:01 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 05:38 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 23 2012 05:25 Survivor61316 wrote:I think this change is going to help the late game a lot. It's really not hard, to morph some overseers and keep them near your production facilities and main mining bases. Then a couple mutas/corrupters and zerglings left behind to help clean up the prism and drop should be all you need. Plus, you should see the prism coming with good overlord/seer spreads on the way to your base so you have plenty of time to react. Sorry you cant use one unit to completely deal with everything now, you'll have to multi-task like every other race.. People so butthurt over Zerg right now. It's really funny. It will be even more funny when Blizzard reverts this change. Mind you it's just a test map and if you check recent tournament results there is really no need for such a change so it won't come. That aside you realize that a lategame warpin can consist of +10 zealots? No amount of lings left behind will help clean up anything here. You can still leave an infestor to deal with drops that dont consist of dts. You really shouldnt allow a warp prism to stay in your base long enough to warp in that many zealots anyways, or you kind of deserve to take the damage they inflict.. Proper overlord spread for vision of incoming drops should allow your defensive anti-air to come in and take out the warp prism before it sets up shop. Also, if you use mutas for your defense, you can help to quickly take out a zealot (or dt) drop after the wp is taken down. Between all these defensive options, zerg should have no problem deflecting drops as long as they properly set themselves up to do so ahead of time. Do you sometime allow a medivac to land in your base? How, all you have to do is to appropriately spread observers? It is rather strange hearing this awful advice, when players who play SC2 for a living still get hit with plenty of damage from the warp-prism in it's current form, never mind the unkillable version of the same unit. Who are you kidding? How would it be unkillable for zerg, while terran can deal fine against it without able to root it? (And no we dont use marines to kill speed prisms). But I agree, it is rather strange when I see pros playing horribly against speed prisms, guess it must be that some of them needs to getting used to it in combination with the stress of playing WCS. Because seriously a zerg who allowed over 5 times the same warp prism to make a drop directly in his main in exactly the same spot made me die a little. Anyway speed prism is not unkillable for zerg (for terran it effectively is, since vikings cant catch up with it). But even if it was, that isnt relevant. With the same logic speedlings are unkillable for terran, they outrun anything we can make. Is that a problem? Of course not, if the only thing a unit can do is running away, its use is kinda limitted. But of course, as you know, your argument is horribly flawed. A toss often cant afford to make 10 observers to cover every angle, a zerg can easily spread his overlords, which both cost no pop and are essentially free since he has them anyway. Of course I assume here we are far enough in the game that he made some corrupters, which essentially means he controls the sky. (Or he has no corrupters and the toss has no phoenix). (I kinda do agree that toss should make more observers against drops, then again they can warp in loads of units when the drop is happening). No, YOUR argument is horribly wrong. OMG, you protoss players are so biased. Warp Prisms are very good right now, they don't need any more buffs whatsoever. Also, why do you vindicate the right to posess an unfungalable drop tool while terran medivacs can be still fungaled? Truth is that you are so biased you don't even understand or just do not care about making the same spell to act one way in one matchup and totally differently in the other, now how silly game-design that would be. Going down the way by that logic, how bout I say, templars shouldn't be able to stop terran drops, I get feedbacked and all my troops just instantly die, now how stupid is that? Templars are too good, nerf those fuckers! I imagine you would be completely outraged, if you heard such a thing. Now tell me, how is a templar feedbacking and killing a full energy medivac full of troops any different from a warp prism getting fungaled and dye. Can't you see how stupid your argument is?
Terran medivacs are nothing like warp prisms, so saying that they should be affected the same is kinda outrageous.. Where the terran can pump medivacs out two at a time from the starport, the protoss must choose to cut production of either immortals or collosi, both of which are vitally important to their ground armies, in order to produce a wp. Thats why when a protoss losses a wp its a much bigger deal for them, and you generally dont see them being rebuilt after they are destroyed. Also, fungal can lockdown multiple medivacs and destory them all, whereas feedback can only take one out before their energy is gone, so they really dont affect the game the same way. Plus, you can easily stop feedback from killing your medivac by stimming the units youre going to drop, letting your medivac heal them, and then picking them back up for the drop.
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EPT
