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3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 05:48 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. I was commenting on the 'saying that no other composition can work is laughable ' from the beginning of the post. Of course BL & infestor is still viable. More than that, it is still NECESSARY. There is no other place to go against P deathball. Z needs tier 3 to beat P & T tier 1/2. Ultras are quite fragile against T and straight up do not work against P deathball.
It's not like P has any options for deathball composition. Nor does Terran. There's only one composition that actually works against BL/Infestor. You can't go mass Zealot against BLs, for example, for obvious reasons. Even once Infestors are on the field, Protoss needs to start making HTs/Colossi. This change doesn't make Blink Stalkers anymore useful once Infestors come out. I'm pretty sure every race needs some T3 to take out certain T2 units. I need Temps to beat Mutas. I need HT/Colo to beat Infestors, etc. etc.
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On November 22 2012 05:51 monkybone wrote:
Everyone, PLEASE see this in the light of HotS. WoL will soon become irrelevant.
Thank god they did not patch this live 1 week before tournament, like they used to with some game changing patches.
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3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop.
Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile.
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On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs.
I was about to mention as well, that protoss have really strong pre-BL timing attacks, that somehow get held. Clearly they are held without infestor/BL. It's so hard to read this thread. The amount of people saying that infestor/BL is the only way to play zerg lategame (hint, it isn't!), blizzard also apparently removed overseers as well. Has everyone forgotten that the game was way more fun to watch before mass spine into infestor/BL. I know there are more people like me, but if JRecco is ever on stream or tournament, for example MCSL, I actually turn it off for an hour. I hate watching any of his games. I hate sitting around for two hours while he builds 200 spine crawlers, kills P/T armies after armies, and never pushes in until they run out of minerals. If anyone can watch his games and tell me that they do not want to see a change that would destroy turtle-zerg style, I would be impressed with that person's patience. Watching turtle-zerg has made me stop watching zerg games if I know that player has a tendency to play turtle-zerg. Nobody wants to see it, nobody wants to play against it, so we need to nerf it so that it isn't as effective as it is.
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On November 22 2012 05:53 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. I was about to mention as well, that protoss have really strong pre-BL timing attacks, that somehow get held. Clearly they are held without infestor/BL. It's so hard to read this thread. The amount of people saying that infestor/BL is the only way to play zerg lategame (hint, it isn't!), blizzard also apparently removed overseers as well. Has everyone forgotten that the game was way more fun to watch before mass spine into infestor/BL. I know there are more people like me, but if JRecco is ever on stream or tournament, for example MCSL, I actually turn it off for an hour. I hate watching any of his games. I hate sitting around for two hours while he builds 200 spine crawlers, kills P/T armies after armies, and never pushes in until they run out of minerals. If anyone can watch his games and tell me that they do not want to see a change that would destroy turtle-zerg style, I would be impressed with that person's patience. Watching turtle-zerg has made me stop watching zerg games if I know that player has a tendency to play turtle-zerg. Nobody wants to see it, nobody wants to play against it, so we need to nerf it so that it isn't as effective as it is.
Yes, they are held hiding behind 15+ spines and are obviously not the ultimate P deathball, but rather a ~14 minute version.
* Do you turn off Rains games because he turtles against terran?
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On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Mass muta+ upgraded zerglings, basetrade the hell out of Protoss. Every game. 
That's at least what I do whenever I grow sick of turtling, and my winrates are way higher if I get a mutaball up, then with a Broodlord ball.
Makes Protoss rage/cry even harder than Infestors, especially if you evacuate your bases with nydus, get overlord speed to run them away and suddenly Protoss has marched across the map to kill a few techstructures and hatcheries, while you are already building another 3-4hatches and kill his bases.
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On November 22 2012 05:45 Cybren wrote:
I'd rather see:
old snipe damage
barracks before supply
burrowcasting
khyadarin amulet
all come back then just continue to soften everything to boring and safe homogeny
u forgot voidray speed upgrade ^^
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On November 22 2012 05:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Mass muta+ upgraded zerglings, basetrade the hell out of Protoss. Every game. That's at least what I do whenever I grow sick of turtling, and my winrates are way higher if I get a mutaball up, then with a Broodlord ball. Makes Protoss rage/cry even harder than Infestors, especially if you evacuate your bases with nydus, get overlord speed to run them away and suddenly Protoss has marched across the map to kill a few techstructures and hatcheries, while you are already building another 3-4hatches and kill his bases.
Haha, you are of course right
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If only I could post a topic on the general SC2 Chat
I litterally can tell the perfect way to balance Infesotrs and BL's and how to buff ultras and hydras.
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On November 22 2012 05:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop. Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile.
If you got a fungal on a MS you shoulda neuraled and counter vortex instead. Broodlings still make it very hard to get that close with high templars. Archons will help a bit but your still not gonna win the fight without getting them in the vortex which can still be blocked by mass infested terran.
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On November 22 2012 05:48 m0ck wrote:
Ultras are quite fragile against T and straight up do not work against P deathball.
Are you seriously saying that a unit with 500 hit points and 6 armor is “quite fragile”?
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3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 06:03 DemonCow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:52 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop. Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile. If you got a fungal on a MS you shoulda neuraled and counter vortex instead. Broodlings still make it very hard to get that close with high templars. Archons will help a bit but your still not gonna win the fight without getting them in the vortex which can still be blocked by mass infested terran.
Fungalling MS is way easier than Neuraling on account of the higher range...the ability to halt a MS when your army is mispositioned should not be underestimated.
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On November 22 2012 06:05 Shiori wrote:
Fungalling MS is way easier than Neuraling on account of the higher range...the ability to halt a MS when your army is mispositioned should not be underestimated.
Keep in mind that the MS will no longer be an issue in the near future, according to Dustin.
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On November 22 2012 06:05 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 06:03 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:52 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop. Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile. If you got a fungal on a MS you shoulda neuraled and counter vortex instead. Broodlings still make it very hard to get that close with high templars. Archons will help a bit but your still not gonna win the fight without getting them in the vortex which can still be blocked by mass infested terran. Fungalling MS is way easier than Neuraling on account of the higher range...the ability to halt a MS when your army is mispositioned should not be underestimated.
Never seen a fungal on a MS that actually changed how the battle went.
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On November 22 2012 05:56 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:53 convention wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. I was about to mention as well, that protoss have really strong pre-BL timing attacks, that somehow get held. Clearly they are held without infestor/BL. It's so hard to read this thread. The amount of people saying that infestor/BL is the only way to play zerg lategame (hint, it isn't!), blizzard also apparently removed overseers as well. Has everyone forgotten that the game was way more fun to watch before mass spine into infestor/BL. I know there are more people like me, but if JRecco is ever on stream or tournament, for example MCSL, I actually turn it off for an hour. I hate watching any of his games. I hate sitting around for two hours while he builds 200 spine crawlers, kills P/T armies after armies, and never pushes in until they run out of minerals. If anyone can watch his games and tell me that they do not want to see a change that would destroy turtle-zerg style, I would be impressed with that person's patience. Watching turtle-zerg has made me stop watching zerg games if I know that player has a tendency to play turtle-zerg. Nobody wants to see it, nobody wants to play against it, so we need to nerf it so that it isn't as effective as it is. Yes, they are held hiding behind 15+ spines and are obviously not the ultimate P deathball, but rather a ~14 minute version. * Do you turn off Rains games because he turtles against terran?
Have you seen JRecco games? Have you seen rain games? Rain turtles behind lots of harass, he has storm drops, zealot run-bys, more storm drops, warp prism zealot drops. Behind that, he builds an army. JRecco will not leave his half of the map ever, if his opponent has units, he won't move across the halfway point. He doesnt harass or buy time, he just sits back with infestors in spines. That is not fun to watch. A multiprong harass style and macroing up behind is much more exciting.
On another note, yes, the 14minute version is not the ultimate protoss deathball. Nor is the zerg 14 minute army that holds it off. If zerg then incorporates BLs, it can contend with the protoss ultimate deathball. Instead of having an army of BLs and infestors, it is an army that is supported by broodlords and infestors, that forces engagements in good locations for the zerg army. That is what everyone wants to see in the game, unit diversity. Interesting subtleties with how an army is use or how small changes in army composition. No one wants to see a-moved BLs, with baby-sitting infestors. That isn't exciting.
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It's a pretty huge nerf for ZvP
At least it's pretty cool for TvZ x'))
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3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 06:08 DemonCow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 06:05 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 06:03 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:52 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 05:50 DemonCow wrote:On November 22 2012 05:43 Talack wrote:On November 22 2012 05:40 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 05:35 Hryul wrote:On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame. I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears. Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi? Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : / The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs. The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop. Not strictly true. You can Feedback Infestors much more easily, your Archons won't be immobilized, your MS is more mobile. If you got a fungal on a MS you shoulda neuraled and counter vortex instead. Broodlings still make it very hard to get that close with high templars. Archons will help a bit but your still not gonna win the fight without getting them in the vortex which can still be blocked by mass infested terran. Fungalling MS is way easier than Neuraling on account of the higher range...the ability to halt a MS when your army is mispositioned should not be underestimated. Never seen a fungal on a MS that actually changed how the battle went.
It stops the battle. That's the poitn.
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On November 22 2012 05:26 Zrana wrote:
Bringing back Scourge would solve so many issues!
It's a way to deal with the WP harrass which is gonna hit your bases really hard
They could deal with a mothership a bit more easily than corruptors (which compensates for the infestor changes a little)
They'd help vs the big 13-15min pushes with collosus/sentry as killing the collosus quicker means less damage taken than when you have corruptors chipping away at them.
Remove the infestor completely if you want ^^ but give us scourge imo
scourge might actually be kinda neat.
think about a bunch of scoruge trying to take down a mothership and then like some oracles landing time warps so they cant get in there.
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Overall nerd to infestors is alright but Blizzard shouldn't label warp prisms as psionic.
Also, fungal won't uncloak dts and ghosts? Hmm a little more thought should go into this but then again this is for testing
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EPT
