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On November 22 2012 04:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:43 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2012 04:38 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2012 03:49 Jinsho wrote:On November 22 2012 03:48 poorcloud wrote:
This changes seem really good! Infestors will become more of a support unit rather then being the mass-and-win unit.
However, i will make it such that fungal dosen't hold on psionic units but still damage them. Can't imagine zerg controlling phoenixes without fungal PHOENIX IS NOT A PSIONIC UNIT. Read the OP please. also keep in mind that sentry and warp prism are not psionic either, at least on the map. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, really? Can someone confirm this and if so, get a banner placed in the thread. Prisms are psionic for sure (played as Protoss, Zerg tried to fungal, didn't work) pretty sure sentries are psionic as well (at least on EU) Ok, I thought the entire world had gone nuts. So how were the greased up, fungle proof warp prisims? a ton of fun (for me)  I'm not good with P, but flying around with a prism and basically killing any base (on occasion) that didn't have detection + mobile troops with DTs was quite cool. Sounds like your opponent should have had more detection and spine crawlers. It is what protoss do when it gets to late game, though we call our spine crawlers “photon cannons”. I hope this change makes it in, because I want to see speed prisms yanked back by Vipers when trying to escape. I’m thinking for my long term amusement here.
opponents
Yeah, it's most likely that my opponents aren't used to this kind of play. But it felt like completly screwing with their gameplans, that I could just fly around freely and kill whatever I found unprotected.
I hope the solution isn't spining/sporing everything up...
Also skipping colossi in favor of early archons and mass immortals feels really potent, if you can just keep him at home with a single prism, even if it doesn't warp anything in.
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On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G
Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4...
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On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors.
Its usually stopped without infestors. So yes, yes you can
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On November 22 2012 05:11 nmetasch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4...
to be fair this GSL shouldn't prove much as it's been nonsensical beginning to end, but yeah WCS is a hundred times worse of an example
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On November 22 2012 05:12 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:11 nmetasch wrote:On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4... to be fair this GSL shouldn't prove much as it's been nonsensical beginning to end, but yeah WCS is a hundred times worse of an example
No single tournament is a good example to be perfectly honest... Its the overall trend, which we are seeing many more zerg in top positions than terran and protoss..
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On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.
Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.
How will this force protoss to play more diversely ? Oh yeah, it won't infact it just made your powerful strategy even stronger , not to mention how do we stop the immortal sentry all in without the protoss choking on his ff's now ? The reason Zerg even rushed up to hive is cause its the only way to fight the protoss deathball.
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On November 22 2012 05:14 nmetasch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:12 HaXXspetten wrote:On November 22 2012 05:11 nmetasch wrote:On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4... to be fair this GSL shouldn't prove much as it's been nonsensical beginning to end, but yeah WCS is a hundred times worse of an example No single tournament is a good example to be perfectly honest... Its the overall trend, which we are seeing many more zerg in top positions than terran and protoss..
yeah but look at like 2-3 months ago, it was total protoss dominance, and this GSL season they were almost non-existant and it was mostly zergs
sc2 changes so fast, but people are so impatient with the constant balance discussions
in this case, it's more of a design flaw rather than a balance flaw that forces infestors to be nerfed, otherwise I'd rather let the game be as it is and evolve on its own if it wasn't for the fact that we have expansions coming up in the near future
BW was almost never patched, and it turned out to be one of the most balanced games of all time, lasting for over a decade, metagame evolving on its own
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On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors. This change might affect the meta-game for zergs now because they might need hydras in all their compositions now.
That's okay, as long as Hydras get a decent buff.
I say, move Muscular Augments to Lair, buff base range to 6, move Grooved Spines to Hive, and make it a +2 range upgrade, so that Hydras can outrange static defenses and most other ranged units in the late game.
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On November 22 2012 05:11 nmetasch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4...
Curious was there... just saying.
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On November 22 2012 05:12 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors. Its usually stopped without infestors. So yes, yes you can
Protosses usually lose those games because they don't clump up their units at chokes. There was a GSL game recently Samsungkhan_roro vs LG-IM_Seed where seed used mass sentry and kept adding units to his army with a warp prism. Roro was 20-30 food ahead at the first engagement but because he couldn't kill the sentries Seed was able to max out and win the game.
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On November 22 2012 05:17 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:14 nmetasch wrote:On November 22 2012 05:12 HaXXspetten wrote:On November 22 2012 05:11 nmetasch wrote:On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote:
1st Place WCS = protos
2nd Place WCS = protos
3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4... to be fair this GSL shouldn't prove much as it's been nonsensical beginning to end, but yeah WCS is a hundred times worse of an example No single tournament is a good example to be perfectly honest... Its the overall trend, which we are seeing many more zerg in top positions than terran and protoss.. yeah but look at like 2-3 months ago, it was total protoss dominance, and this GSL season they were almost non-existant and it was mostly zergs sc2 changes so fast, but people are so impatient with the constant balance discussions in this case, it's more of a design flaw rather than a balance flaw that forces infestors to be nerfed, otherwise I'd rather let the game be as it is and evolve on its own if it wasn't for the fact that we have expansions coming up in the near future BW was almost never patched, and it turned out to be one of the most balanced games of all time, lasting for over a decade, metagame evolving on its own
The brief period of Protoss dominance was 100% down to Immortal/Sentry, which has since been somewhat figured out.
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Ehh.. zerg will be dead after that changes.. how many times you were saved by fungal in your base defending against DTs. No more reveal.. And ghost has freakin good dmg against festors and they will be sooo limited with crap fungal.
And seeker... no comment, mass destruction. No late game for zerg then. Or any units. Guess we'll have to see.
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On November 22 2012 05:12 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors. Its usually stopped without infestors. So yes, yes you can
After watching BWC even if you stop the push you end up dying to a follow up. Mass stalker collosus thing is without infestors we have no way to Efficently stop that push without coming behind because we spend so so so much money and drones on spines and units .
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On November 22 2012 05:19 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors. This change might affect the meta-game for zergs now because they might need hydras in all their compositions now. That's okay, as long as Hydras get a decent buff. I say, move Muscular Augments to Lair, buff base range to 6, move Grooved Spines to Hive, and make it a +2 range upgrade, so that Hydras can outrange static defenses and most other ranged units in the late game.
Making hydras out range other ranged units might make them too strong, hydras do need a speed upgrade though.
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On November 22 2012 05:24 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:12 Solarist wrote:On November 22 2012 05:09 sighsigh wrote:
instead of making psionic units immune to fungal, why don't you just make them half damage or something. If the psionic immunity goes into real games then the 2 base sentry / immortal all-in will finally be impossible to stop. You can't exactly stop that push with some measure of success without infestors. Its usually stopped without infestors. So yes, yes you can After watching BWC even if you stop the push you end up dying to a follow up. Mass stalker collosus thing is without infestors we have no way to Efficently stop that push without coming behind because we spend so so so much money and drones on spines and units .
The quality of Zergs at BWC was pretty low compared to the Protosses.
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The fungal nerf is 1000x less severe than the ghost snipe nerf. Deal.
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Bringing back Scourge would solve so many issues!
It's a way to deal with the WP harrass which is gonna hit your bases really hard
They could deal with a mothership a bit more easily than corruptors (which compensates for the infestor changes a little)
They'd help vs the big 13-15min pushes with collosus/sentry as killing the collosus quicker means less damage taken than when you have corruptors chipping away at them.
Remove the infestor completely if you want ^^ but give us scourge imo
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On November 22 2012 05:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:48 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2012 04:43 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 04:40 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2012 04:38 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2012 03:49 Jinsho wrote:On November 22 2012 03:48 poorcloud wrote:
This changes seem really good! Infestors will become more of a support unit rather then being the mass-and-win unit.
However, i will make it such that fungal dosen't hold on psionic units but still damage them. Can't imagine zerg controlling phoenixes without fungal PHOENIX IS NOT A PSIONIC UNIT. Read the OP please. also keep in mind that sentry and warp prism are not psionic either, at least on the map. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, really? Can someone confirm this and if so, get a banner placed in the thread. Prisms are psionic for sure (played as Protoss, Zerg tried to fungal, didn't work) pretty sure sentries are psionic as well (at least on EU) Ok, I thought the entire world had gone nuts. So how were the greased up, fungle proof warp prisims? a ton of fun (for me) I'm not good with P, but flying around with a prism and basically killing any base (on occasion) that didn't have detection + mobile troops with DTs was quite cool. Sounds like your opponent should have had more detection and spine crawlers. It is what protoss do when it gets to late game, though we call our spine crawlers “photon cannons”. I hope this change makes it in, because I want to see speed prisms yanked back by Vipers when trying to escape. I’m thinking for my long term amusement here. opponent s Yeah, it's most likely that my opponents aren't used to this kind of play. But it felt like completly screwing with their gameplans, that I could just fly around freely and kill whatever I found unprotected. I hope the solution isn't spining/sporing everything up... Also skipping colossi in favor of early archons and mass immortals feels really potent, if you can just keep him at home with a single prism, even if it doesn't warp anything in.
Your "spine crawlers" (aka photon cannons) dont cost 275minerals :p
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This means that infestors will no longer be able to reveal cloaked ghosts and dark templars.
This could become a huge issue.
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Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
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EPT
