On November 22 2012 05:29 kaluro wrote: This means that infestors will no longer be able to reveal cloaked ghosts and dark templars. This could become a huge issue.
Yeah, if only Zergs could morph Overlords into a tough flying mobile detection...
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
On November 22 2012 05:29 kaluro wrote: This means that infestors will no longer be able to reveal cloaked ghosts and dark templars. This could become a huge issue.
Not revealing cloaked ghosts is the point. Zergs also have this cheap, fast, no supply, readily available detector called an overseer.
On November 22 2012 04:51 NrSAlaStOr wrote: 1st Place WCS = protos 2nd Place WCS = protos 3rd Place WCS = protos
AND THEY STILL WANT TO NERF ZERG, 15 Zergs started this finals, 0 Finished , 13 protos started this finals, 3 of them finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd....
is this an april's fools joke? O M G
Look at how many Koreans there were in the tournament, and what races they were... The only Zerg korean in the tournament just started playing the game 3 months ago -_-.... How can you try to use that as proof that zerg isn't in need of a nerf? Look at GSL final 4...
to be fair this GSL shouldn't prove much as it's been nonsensical beginning to end, but yeah WCS is a hundred times worse of an example
No single tournament is a good example to be perfectly honest... Its the overall trend, which we are seeing many more zerg in top positions than terran and protoss..
yeah but look at like 2-3 months ago, it was total protoss dominance, and this GSL season they were almost non-existant and it was mostly zergs
sc2 changes so fast, but people are so impatient with the constant balance discussions
in this case, it's more of a design flaw rather than a balance flaw that forces infestors to be nerfed, otherwise I'd rather let the game be as it is and evolve on its own if it wasn't for the fact that we have expansions coming up in the near future
BW was almost never patched, and it turned out to be one of the most balanced games of all time, lasting for over a decade, metagame evolving on its own
Mostly zergs? Code S:
Ro32 P 9 T 14 Z 9
Ro16 P 2 T 6 Z 8
Ro8 P 1 T 3 Z 4
Ro4 P 0 T 2 Z 2
Code A:
Ro48 P 15 T 15 Z 10
Total:
P 24 T 29 Z 19
There are some fair balance-complaints (and there are hysterical ones..), but you still have to deal with reality. We all want a game that is more evenly balanced throughout the game. But to pretend that it is somehow unthinkable for P and T to win against Z is laughable. Is Z > P ? I think the jury is still out.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
It's a flash of stupidity actually. 3rd paragraph makes sense... but please do tell what is this amazing strat that only you know that is no bl/infestor that can hang (with 50%ish win rate) late game with protoss death balls?
On November 22 2012 05:29 kaluro wrote: This means that infestors will no longer be able to reveal cloaked ghosts and dark templars. This could become a huge issue.
Yeah, if only Zergs could morph Overlords into a tough flying mobile detection...
I can't believe zergs are actually using that as a debate point. "I don't really know if we have any units other than infestors..."
Common guys this is just getting embarrassing, have you all forgotten how to play the race after this style became so popular? You have lots of units to fulfill different jobs and you're not even trying to consider them if the infestor does it? To me that's even further proof that the game needs to break further away from infestors being so versatile and start forcing more composition diversity out of zerg.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Was the BL nerfed? I'm sick of Zergs crying doom and gloom without this change having been live for a single day. BL/Infestor isn't suddenly non-viable.
I just skimmed through the tournament results of premier, major and minor events since may and I can't wrap my head around how anyone could still say results don't show a clear picture of how broken Zerg is and how poorly terran is doing.
I have spent 1 month of practice trying to figure out late game tvz with ravens and I know for sure it's not possible if the Zerg doesn't fuck up very badly or you have a huge advantage entering the late game or he just doesn't attack you. The problem with ravens is that it takes too much time for them to gather energy until they are effective. Making the upgrade free is nice but it doesn't change a damn thing about the timings. You don't die because you couldn't afford the 150/150 upgrade but because the ravens are totally useless until they gathered enough energy to cast seeker missile.
On November 22 2012 05:29 kaluro wrote: This means that infestors will no longer be able to reveal cloaked ghosts and dark templars. This could become a huge issue.
Not revealing cloaked ghosts is the point. Zergs also have this cheap, fast, no supply, readily available detector called an overseer.
Nah, the point is the root, in my eyes. What could happen before if you went ghost is that your group of 8 ghosts cloaks, goes in to EMP infestors. Zerg sees this coming, sends out a single infestor, which IF it gets a fungal on the group of ghsots, the BL's can suddenly kill all 8 ghosts, will the broodlings impairing the Ghosts ability to move forward, while the fungal rooted the ghosts just long enough they can't rereat.
The snare was the issue, not the cloak. Zergs regularly havel ike 5 overseers flying with their composition vs Protoss. At zero supply and a massive bank, this is not an issue to add on vs Terran.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : /
The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs.
with these changes I would make a few more on top of them -make warp prism non psionic so it can be fungled -make interceptors psionic so it can't be fungled -make infested terran cost 50 energy and have more hp, sometimes there are too many of them and it looks like a cluster fuck -make burrow movement more visible, like how cloak is
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Zerg tears into protoss tears into terran tears into zerg tears? Did i get the timeline right?
Circle is complete time for Hots and new Fruitdealer. Hell yea.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Was the BL nerfed? I'm sick of Zergs crying doom and gloom without this change having been live for a single day. BL/Infestor isn't suddenly non-viable.
Kid you obviously didn't read the post. Nobody said bl/infestor isn't viable still, it is this change did almost nothing to bl/infestor composition. We are referring to the guy who says he doesn't use bl/infestor late game and has 50% win rate in late game situations.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : /
The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs.
I was commenting on the 'saying that no other composition can work is laughable ' from the beginning of the post. Of course BL & infestor is still viable. More than that, it is still NECESSARY. There is no other place to go against P deathball. Z needs tier 3 to beat P & T tier 1/2. Ultras are quite fragile against T and straight up do not work against P deathball.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Probably the same strategies that worked before infestor/broodlord was the complete and total end-goal : /
The composition is still going to be insanely strong they're just giving protoss/terran a way to "ACTUALLY" do something about it beyond hoping their control is way way better than the zergs.
The BL/infestor composition is unaffected by this patch... this change only effects early-mid game for the most part only late game benefit is warp prism be much harder to stop.
On November 22 2012 05:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Zergs that state there's no alternative to the current style of play are utterly hilarious to me. Definition of narrow minded. Of course there are other styles, that yes, work. It's not that they "have been tried and fail." It's that they "have been tried, and while they work, they are not AS effective as BL/Infestor, which is insanely dominant."
If Zerg wins 55-60% of their lategame ZvP due to BL/Infestor, and now has to adapt to a different style that makes them win 50-55%, then that's a good change... nothing is needed to "compensate" or give them anything else.
I refuse to use Infestor/BL as Zerg lategame as the dominant composition, and I've managed fine with higher rates of win% lategame with Zerg than any other race, as a high masters random player. Sure, I could probably have an *even higher* win% with BL/Infestor, and I acknowledge it's more powerful than what I'm using now, but I'm not so narrowminded to say the other alternatives aren't viable.... that's silly.
Equal win% are irrelevant on an overall scale if it only results from P winning early-midgame or with timings and Z winning all the lategame. If we fix Z lategame to 50-50 and don't fix the early-midgame, that's STILL a benefit in my eyes. We've eliminated one part of the problem, making the other problem more glaring and will be fixed eventually. Protoss sucking balls lategame vs Zerg is a problem. Making warp prism harass more viable will directly make Zerg lategame weaker as they are less able to deal with it, which is a GOOD thing. It makes the silly BL/infestor composition weaker and even more immobile. GOOD.
tl;dr: No, other strategies as Zerg have not been "figured out" and unusuable in today's meta. They are just inferior to infestor/BL, which is OP. Forcing Zergs to use less effective alternatives will only balance the game for the better at the particular point in the game we're trying to fix, the lategame.
I love flashes of reason in the sea of imbalance tears.
Which non-BL composition can handle sentry, archon, immortal & colossi?
Don't forget mothership and ht! And while we're at it these situations always come out of thin air with nothing going on before. or afterwards. And blord/infestor just got nerfed to be unusable!!! like broodlings with 1hp and fungal with 0.5 sek duration.
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