EPTOn November 22 2012 03:19 Scarlett` wrote:
The part where it doesn't take 9 snipes to kill one Overseer because they are psionic ?
The part where it doesn't take 9 snipes to kill one Overseer because they are psionic ?
If only they were,...
Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 44
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
If only they were,... | ||
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MrFraische
Sweden9 Posts
On November 22 2012 02:27 HaXXspetten wrote: ...build spores and have a dozen lings hanging around the edge of your main? overlords spotting way in advance? And to everybody who argues that "the other races have managed against warp prisms without fungal": For Z, protecting the main might still be doable, although considering how unit production works for zerg as opposed to warping in units from a prism, that can still be extremely hard (which it ALREADY IS, even on the pro level). Also, turrets and cannons don't cost a scv/probe to make. Protecting expansion hatcheries will be a lot more difficult, because you can't invest in a lot in static defense on an expand that's far away from your base.. Honestly, I don't understand how anybody could think that not being able to catch the speed prism in any way won't be a problem. It basically gives the protoss unlimited harrassing opportunities (which it pretty much ALREADY does, but even worse). The reason terrans can deal with this at the far away expansions is the PF, which zerg has nothing remotely close to... | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:14 Assirra wrote: once again with the broodlords, i must have missed the patch where zerg starts with free 10 broodlords. It's probably the same patch where terrans start with 10 ghosts with cloak already researched. If you're actually suggesting that terran gets ghosts out much earlier than they normally do in order to go hunt and kill infestors, since they can't be fungal'd, that's an interesting idea I hadn't thought of. However, I don't think the zerg will be anywhere close to helpless. Lair tech will obviously be out, enabling cheap overseer production at 50/50. With creep spread, you'll either see the ghosts moving out with time to react, or the ghost will use extra cloaking energy by cloaking from farther away. You also have a chance to scout early ghost tech. It's difficult for a terran that wants to make marines to have a lot of tech lab'd barracks that early; basically, you can't do both. Most key of all is perhaps how expensive ghosts are. Basically, if you know the ghosts are coming, you can take pretty simple measures to avoid getting a lot of infestors sniped, and it's a very expensive tech that requires the terran to make sacrifices--maybe siege tanks, upgrades, medivacs, etc. However, I'm against fungal-immune psionic units. It's a very specific change just like the horribly done snipe nerf. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:35 MrFraische wrote: And to everybody who argues that "the other races have managed against warp prisms without fungal": For Z, protecting the main might still be doable, although considering how unit production works for zerg as opposed to warping in units from a prism, that can still be extremely hard (which it ALREADY IS, even on the pro level). Also, turrets and cannons don't cost a scv/probe to make. Protecting expansion hatcheries will be a lot more difficult, because you can't invest in a lot in static defense on an expand that's far away from your base.. Honestly, I don't understand how anybody could think that not being able to catch the speed prism in any way won't be a problem. It basically gives the protoss unlimited harrassing opportunities (which it pretty much ALREADY does, but even worse). The reason terrans can deal with this at the far away expansions is the PF, which zerg has nothing remotely close to... you've never seen progamers throw up 5 spines and 2 spores at far away bases? | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:38 s3rp wrote: WHy exactly are Ravens not Psionic btw ? Any reason for it ? It's a freaking caster unit it should be ... Ravens aren't alive and therefore cannot be psychics. Warp Prisms, despite not being alive, go through a "Psionic manufacturing process" and also use a Psionic Matrix to warp in troops. The Mothership has a huge Khaydarin Crystal at it's core which is infused by an incredible amount of Psionic Energy. Terrans don't have any such Psionic manufacturing abilities, their technology just isn't there yet. Ghosts on the other hands, are psychics and therefore considered Psionic beings. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:35 MrFraische wrote: And to everybody who argues that "the other races have managed against warp prisms without fungal": For Z, protecting the main might still be doable, although considering how unit production works for zerg as opposed to warping in units from a prism, that can still be extremely hard (which it ALREADY IS, even on the pro level). Also, turrets and cannons don't cost a scv/probe to make. Protecting expansion hatcheries will be a lot more difficult, because you can't invest in a lot in static defense on an expand that's far away from your base.. Honestly, I don't understand how anybody could think that not being able to catch the speed prism in any way won't be a problem. It basically gives the protoss unlimited harrassing opportunities (which it pretty much ALREADY does, but even worse). The reason terrans can deal with this at the far away expansions is the PF, which zerg has nothing remotely close to... Our current harassment does absolutely nothing to a competent Zerg. This change will force Zerg to choose between slow pushing and defending the harassment rather than doing both at once. Harassment is supposed to be powerful in the lategame, especially against BL/Infestor, because the composition has no other weakness. What exactly are we supposed to do if we can't harass? Nothing wins in a direct engagement, and we have no way of getting a composition fast enough without delaying the Zerg with a tonne of harass. If 2 Infestors nullify all WP harassment, then we're never going to get to that point. If I invest 30 supply in harassment, it's unfair that a 2 supply unit should be able to defend it. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:38 s3rp wrote: WHy exactly are Ravens not Psionic btw ? Any reason for it ? It's a freaking caster unit it should be ... Because it's a mechanical ship and all of its abilities involve physical weapons. What makes less sense is that the Overseer is not psionic. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:35 MrFraische wrote: Protecting expansion hatcheries will be a lot more difficult, because you can't invest in a lot in static defense on an expand that's far away from your base.. Sorry but do you even play this game? Of course protecting your remote expands with several Spines and a Spore is possible, it is even standard by lategame, both against Terran and Protoss... Stating that Terrans have better static defence with PFs at their remote expands is absolutely laughable. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:40 TheDwf wrote: Sorry but do you even play this game? Of course protecting your remote expands with several Spines and a Spore is possible, it is even standard by lategame, both against Terran and Protoss... Stating that Terrans have better static defence with PFs at their remote expands is absolutely laughable. Exactly this. Why does this guy think he needs 100 Drones 30 minutes into the game? | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:35 MrFraische wrote: And to everybody who argues that "the other races have managed against warp prisms without fungal": For Z, protecting the main might still be doable, although considering how unit production works for zerg as opposed to warping in units from a prism, that can still be extremely hard (which it ALREADY IS, even on the pro level). Also, turrets and cannons don't cost a scv/probe to make. Protecting expansion hatcheries will be a lot more difficult, because you can't invest in a lot in static defense on an expand that's far away from your base.. Honestly, I don't understand how anybody could think that not being able to catch the speed prism in any way won't be a problem. It basically gives the protoss unlimited harrassing opportunities (which it pretty much ALREADY does, but even worse). The reason terrans can deal with this at the far away expansions is the PF, which zerg has nothing remotely close to... You can't make 30 SCVs or probes instantly. I understand the complains about the sentry inmunity to FG, but why the warp prism? How about instead of building those 30 spine crawlers as you push you build them back in your hatcheries? | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:40 Crawdad wrote: Because it's a mechanical ship and all of its abilities involve physical weapons. What makes less sense is that the Overseer is not psionic. and that WP/MS are | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
See my reply above. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:39 Shiori wrote: Our current harassment does absolutely nothing to a competent Zerg. This change will force Zerg to choose between slow pushing and defending the harassment rather than doing both at once. Harassment is supposed to be powerful in the lategame, especially against BL/Infestor, because the composition has no other weakness. What exactly are we supposed to do if we can't harass? Nothing wins in a direct engagement, and we have no way of getting a composition fast enough without delaying the Zerg with a tonne of harass. If 2 Infestors nullify all WP harassment, then we're never going to get to that point. If I invest 30 supply in harassment, it's unfair that a 2 supply unit should be able to defend it. Who do you consider a competent zerg? Leenock? Hero managed to do quite a bit of damage to him with WP harass.. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:39 Arco wrote: Ravens aren't alive and therefore cannot be psychics. Warp Prisms, despite not being alive, go through a "Psionic manufacturing process" and also use a Psionic Matrix to warp in troops. Terrans don't have any such Psionic manufacturing abilities, their technology just isn't there yet. On November 22 2012 03:40 Crawdad wrote: Because it's a mechanical ship and all of its abilities involve physical weapons. What makes less sense is that the Overseer is not psionic. I'm not talking about so called story wise , i'm talking about balancing wise. If you're talking about story you might wanna explain why a shot with a sniper rifle doesn't even kill the smallest unit in the game. If you're making units immune to Fungal it probably shouldn't be determined by Psionic or not without some changes that's all i'm saying. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:43 m0ck wrote: Who do you consider a competent zerg? Leenock? Hero managed to do quite a bit of damage to him with WP harass.. Pity he still lost the game in the end. | ||
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DemonCow
United States10 Posts
You can still fungal interceptors, the fungal changes do almost nothing to change late game PvZ. All this does is encourage 3 base all-ins. Protoss still needs an amazing vortex (or 2) to win vs brood lord infestor. I wish they would just take Vortex out of the game all together. It's stupid that Protoss has to rely on casting one spell, one time, perfectly. It's also just as stupid that zerg has to rely on infestors. No diversity in this game at all anymore :-( | ||
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DontNerfInfestors
Spain280 Posts
-Fungal still uncloaks psionic units -Neural parasite range increased to 8 - Raven is now psionic - Ghost snipe changed to 45 (+5 vs psionic,-15 vs massive) | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
.. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:43 m0ck wrote: Who do you consider a competent zerg? Leenock? Hero managed to do quite a bit of damage to him with WP harass.. It's not damage in any real sense. Sure, we can snipe certain tech structures, maybe even a hatch or two, but the harassment is soon mopped up and the actual army untouched. Zerg never needs to weaken their main force to deal with WP harass. With this change, Zerg will actually have to pull back units/static defense to deal with WP harassment, which means that the main Protoss army, which has already given up supply for harassment, goes up against a Zerg army which is giving up supply to defend harassment. It also gives the Protoss time to build up an air-centric composition, which is currently impossible given the ability of Zergs to brush off harassment without detracting from their main force. | ||
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