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On November 22 2012 01:28 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 22 2012 01:05 Zrana wrote:It's weird how everyone seems to have this mindset that zerg has to be on the bottom of the food chain compared to other races. No-one minds when a terran or protoss wins a major tournament, but when a zerg wins it must be OP...? Zerg isn't just in the game to make loads of units for you to kill. Look at this:
We've heard plenty of feedback recently from pro players and the community about powerful Zerg strategies.
Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
We don't think there’s a large problem here, but we do agree that it’s worth trying to make things better by allowing some different options for players facing Zerg opponents.
As always, we want to make minor changes that open up tactical play, if possible.
They basically say that people are whining but there's no balance issue. If it goes through they might as well write "fixed a bug where zerg can sometimes win" I like the way the changes will affect the game. more harrasment and stuff from toss should make it more interesting and fun. But if the balance is 50/50 now, then surely there will be a problem after this patch? Nerfing the infestor is probably good for the game in the long run but give zerg something in return, give us a lategame army that's mobile but can also fight with the toss deathball at least reasonably cost-effectively. Buff the Ultralisk or something. No one has the mindset that Zerg has to be on the bottom of the food chain, you're creating that delusion in order to justify whatever victimization you're feeling right now. People are pissed at Zerg winning because of the WAY they are winning right now. No one was whining when DRG was winning tournaments using beautiful control, aggression, multi-pronged attacking while maintaining absolutely perfect mechanics back home. Everyone loved watching Nestea win with just beautiful lair based timing attacks and aggression. No one enjoys watching Infestor/Broodlord game after game after game after game after game. No one. That's why people want the Infestor nerfed. It's not just causing Zergs to win, it's causing them to win in a very boring and frustrating way. Does that open the door to buff other Zerg tech options? Perhaps it does, that remains to be seen. What we do all agree on is that that unit comp is broken and the Infestor is the reason why. Please don't pretend like zergs have plenty of options of winning in another fashion. In other to attack into a turtling opponent, zerg needs hive-tech. The zerg siege-unit is the BL and attacking without it into a line of tanks is suicide (that leaves roach-bling all-ins and perhaps a 2-2 timing, yay!). How well is DRGs 'beautiful' play doing these days?
So, you argue that if the infestor gets nerfed in such a way, BLs won't be able to attack into tank lines because of ht and archons?
BL are ridiculously powerful and even the suggested infestor nerf won't make them any less strong.
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man so much debating on how to change zerg lategame
it's easy, just make Lair tech require Hive, sillies
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On November 22 2012 01:30 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 01:26 TheDwf wrote:On November 22 2012 01:05 Zrana wrote:
Buff the Ultralisk or something. No thanks, Ultralisks are already strong enough in ZvT. The only Zerg unit which needs something is the Hydralisk. Ultra strong in ZvT ? it was considered ultraloose for a long time. Without infestors they are weak, and agaisnt mech they suck.
That's completely wrong. The pathetic “Ultralisks into loss” meme came from people who somehow failed to realize that charging offcreep from a single angle with Ultralisks into heavily fortified Terran positions will indeed not yield good results. “Without Infestors they are weak”: what's the difference with BLs exactly? Try going BLs without Infestors and tell me how it goes. “Against mech they suck”: wrong again. Though less prevalent than BLs/Corruptors/Infestors, Ultralisks/Infestors is a valid composition against mech.
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Cool idea, but if you cant fungal sentrys doesnt that make PvZ worse? The immortal sentry all in just got 2x more powerful.
If sentrys werent psionic I would LOVE the change. (Im protoss btw, so no bias :D)
HSM change is a no brainer though. Good stuff.
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On November 22 2012 01:28 Greendotz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 01:05 Zrana wrote:It's weird how everyone seems to have this mindset that zerg has to be on the bottom of the food chain compared to other races. No-one minds when a terran or protoss wins a major tournament, but when a zerg wins it must be OP...? Zerg isn't just in the game to make loads of units for you to kill. Look at this:
We've heard plenty of feedback recently from pro players and the community about powerful Zerg strategies.
Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
We don't think there’s a large problem here, but we do agree that it’s worth trying to make things better by allowing some different options for players facing Zerg opponents.
As always, we want to make minor changes that open up tactical play, if possible.
They basically say that people are whining but there's no balance issue. If it goes through they might as well write "fixed a bug where zerg can sometimes win" I think the real issue is that the game is becoming far too stale. Maybe the win rates are close to 50% globally, but what's the point if half the games Zerg just turtles for 14 minutes on huge maps and then insta-win with infestor broodlord every time and the other half Protoss does a 2 base sentry-immortal all-in on medium/small maps every time?
I completely agree, but blizzard is trying (although with some pretty strange ideas) to deal with the first half, while doing nothing about the second half.
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[*]Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
This made me look into some GSL stats, which I haven't looked into.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League/Rankings
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League/Statistics
I calculated the total and average GSL Ranking points per race.
Race Total Average Players
--------------------------------
T 42720 854 50
P 35666 728 49
Z 32850 699 47
edit: I had two mistakes in the averages before, but now they are fixed. I guess no need for adding any analysis, it looks pretty straightforward.
Note: in the GSL Ranking earned points decay over time, so that the most recent results are the most important.
/ If you like to see it, here's the GSL Ranking, but sorted separately for each race: + Show Spoiler +4 Seed P 5135
5 MC P 3294
6 Squirtle P 3022
8 Genius P 2762
9 PartinG P 2566
11 HerO P 2500
21 Rain P 1650
25 Creator P 1534
26 NaNiwa P 1468
31 Oz P 1221
33 JYP P 1050
39 Puzzle P 859
42 Vampire P 750
47 AcE P 582
51 sOs P 525
55 Killer P 497
57 finale P 446
60 InCa P 414
62 First P 385
66 Mini P 313
66 Terminator P 313
66 Trap P 313
70 Lure P 306
71 Brown P 290
78 MaNa P 270
82 TAiLS P 235
84 Avenge P 226
85 VINES P 222
87 Alicia P 199
94 HuK P 178
96 Flying P 163
96 YongHwa P 163
100 JangBi P 130
100 San P 130
100 Brain P 130
100 Classic P 130
100 Brave P 130
109 inori P 117
118 CranK P 105
118 HongUn P 105
118 TREME P 105
118 Ready P 105
127 Choya P 94
127 GuineaPig P 94
127 GGanDoL P 94
127 Ven P 94
137 cOre P 84
137 Tassadar P 84
137 MacSed P 84
1 Mvp T 6852
7 TaeJa T 3010
10 Ryung T 2514
12 MarineKing T 2467
15 GuMiho T 2014
18 ByuN T 1762
19 INnoVation T 1725
20 aLive T 1678
22 SuperNova T 1625
27 Polt T 1359
28 MMA T 1330
29 Happy T 1325
30 Maru T 1227
32 KeeN T 1187
34 Heart T 959
35 YoDa T 922
36 Hack T 914
37 jjakji T 890
38 Bomber T 874
40 TheStC T 819
45 GanZi T 718
48 Virus T 564
49 ForGG T 545
51 Bbyong T 525
59 BaBy T 417
60 NaDa T 414
64 asd T 360
71 sC T 290
71 BoxeR T 290
76 Flash T 276
76 Sparta T 276
79 Dream T 247
79 Noblesse T 247
81 ThorZaIN T 243
85 Tree T 222
96 FanTaSy T 163
96 Center T 163
100 Sin T 130
109 Last T 117
109 sSak T 117
118 Punisher T 105
118 TheBest T 105
118 Harrier T 105
127 Skit T 94
127 Sting T 94
127 Sound T 94
127 dreamertt T 94
137 Clide T 84
137 Jjun T 84
137 Sculp T 84
2 DongRaeGu Z 5568
3 Life Z 5165
13 Sniper Z 2326
14 Leenock Z 2248
16 Symbol Z 1964
17 HyuN Z 1931
23 Curious Z 1610
24 NesTea Z 1576
41 Soulkey Z 780
43 YugiOh Z 737
43 BBoong Z 737
46 SuHoSin Z 714
50 July Z 535
51 RorO Z 525
54 Zenio Z 519
56 Shine Z 473
58 Jaedong Z 433
63 viOLet Z 364
64 LosirA Z 352
66 Sirius Z 313
71 Lucky Z 290
75 Seal Z 283
82 Miya Z 235
87 jookTo Z 199
87 Terius Z 199
90 IdrA Z 196
90 Sen Z 196
92 Monster Z 189
92 AnNyeong Z 189
94 True Z 178
100 hyvaa Z 130
100 Dark Z 130
100 ByuL Z 130
109 EffOrt Z 117
109 rare Z 117
109 Salmosa Z 117
109 Sleep Z 117
109 RagnaroK Z 117
109 hero Z 117
118 Freaky Z 105
118 JKS Z 105
127 Golden Z 94
127 Revival Z 94
137 Cezanne Z 84
137 XiGua Z 84
137 Luvsic Z 84
137 MorroW Z 84
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/6c/GSLraceW.png)
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On November 22 2012 01:01 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:21 Zoku wrote:
What exactly is the point of making psionic units immune to fungal. HT's and ghosts still can't get close enough to to feedback/emp infestors because of broodlords. All they've done it make midgame protoss stronger, while leave lategame zerg as still an issue. Seriously, do these guys even play or watch the game? Big +1. It's going to make the pre-brood lord 3 base timing stronger, while unaffecting the BL+infestor combo problem. There's no way HTs can approach that compo. It's gonna help with warp prism harass though, which I like. It'll also slightly buff DTs harass, since a nearby overseer will be a requirement to save an expo in construction.
You won't be able to fungal cloaked HT under the mothership to get vision and make them vanish under broodlings.
That's pretty much it.
I kinda like the raven change, might make the transition to the raven-viking composition against Zerg easier.
I do wonder what it's going to change in TvT though.
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Does it just make it so fungal doesn't snare, or are they immune to damage to? They just needed to make them invulnerable to the snare, NOT the damage output... no reason sentries and DT shouldn't be covered in goop and take damage. They can just walk through it.
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On November 21 2012 11:18 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:15 TaKeTV_SC2Pro wrote:
Antiga Ladder with Gold? WP Blizzard. Probably the map that goes to the lategame the most or something. Gotta be a reason why they keep using this map.
You're kidding right?
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HOLYY SHIT TERRAN HELL YEAH !
I love this change !
Raven now has a purpose finally,i don't have to wait forever until i can do something with it except being a week as fuck detection.
On the other hand the fungal change seems unbalanced,HT could not be affected by storm but making archon,DT,Sentries,Warp Prism,and mothership not affected is really bullshit (and i play terran).
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On November 22 2012 01:46 PandaTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:18 monkybone wrote:On November 21 2012 11:15 TaKeTV_SC2Pro wrote:
Antiga Ladder with Gold? WP Blizzard. Probably the map that goes to the lategame the most or something. Gotta be a reason why they keep using this map. You're kidding right?
I guess they wanted to test 2-3 base all ins against infestors.
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These changes are retarded!
- Killing speed warp prisms in the later stages of the game will be completely impossible...
- Seeker missile is WAY too strong to be without the required upgrade (especially against corruptors and bl's)
- Without being able to fungal either archons or motherships, how the F*** are we supposed to stop the archon toilet??
- If ghosts and DT's are immune to fungal, how the F**** shit are we going to see them at all, considering the fact that overseers suck monkeyballs (slow, weak, easy to snipe and feedback)
- Not being able to kill sentries with fungals just puts MORE emphasis on the goddamn forcefields that ALREADY dictates most of the early to mid game in ZvP
It is seriously ridiculous to be QQ'ing about infestors, when they are the ONLY unit that is AT ALL cost efficient for zerg... BL's are cost efficient as long as you have infestors, but without them BL's will be easy to handle for both protoss and terran... Besides, HT's are already pretty good vs infestors even with being vulnerable to fungal, so I don't see the point of that either...
Also, as a side note to those who are talking about that "nobody was pissed when DRG and NesTea won tournaments with lair timings etc", well there is a reason those don't work anymore and that reason is NOT that the zerg players have gotten worse. The game evolves and goes in waves, Terran and Protoss have learned to beat that type of play, going into more either timings that kill the Z earlier, or more turtle macro. So what is Z supposed to do but evolve with them and do the ONLY thing they can do to beat either a terran or protoss army late game -> infestor Broodlord.... If everybody is tired of this, well, then nerf the infestor but give the zergs a damn alternative ffs...
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Including results from two years ago to somehow draw conclusions about current balance issues?...
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How can balance even be discussed when the top players mess up consistently?
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Can I ask what program you used to create those graphs? They look very nice and readable.
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On November 22 2012 01:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:Can I ask what program you used to create those graphs? They look very nice and readable.
MS Paint
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I would like to see the Infestor nerfed.
But buffs must come to Hydras and Ultras to provide alternative late-game PvZ.
Ultras( please fixed their pathing and unit size,just so bloody horrendous)
Hydras(please give them some HP boost or something)
(Hydra used to be a core unit in BW ZvP, one of the most iconic unit now extinct in SC2)
Also buff the Carriers please.
It is a joke that Carriers and Hydras are under-used.
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On November 22 2012 01:37 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 01:28 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 22 2012 01:05 Zrana wrote:It's weird how everyone seems to have this mindset that zerg has to be on the bottom of the food chain compared to other races. No-one minds when a terran or protoss wins a major tournament, but when a zerg wins it must be OP...? Zerg isn't just in the game to make loads of units for you to kill. Look at this:
We've heard plenty of feedback recently from pro players and the community about powerful Zerg strategies.
Globally, at both the pro and non-pro levels, we’re not seeing significant balance issues.
We don't think there’s a large problem here, but we do agree that it’s worth trying to make things better by allowing some different options for players facing Zerg opponents.
As always, we want to make minor changes that open up tactical play, if possible.
They basically say that people are whining but there's no balance issue. If it goes through they might as well write "fixed a bug where zerg can sometimes win" I like the way the changes will affect the game. more harrasment and stuff from toss should make it more interesting and fun. But if the balance is 50/50 now, then surely there will be a problem after this patch? Nerfing the infestor is probably good for the game in the long run but give zerg something in return, give us a lategame army that's mobile but can also fight with the toss deathball at least reasonably cost-effectively. Buff the Ultralisk or something. No one has the mindset that Zerg has to be on the bottom of the food chain, you're creating that delusion in order to justify whatever victimization you're feeling right now. People are pissed at Zerg winning because of the WAY they are winning right now. No one was whining when DRG was winning tournaments using beautiful control, aggression, multi-pronged attacking while maintaining absolutely perfect mechanics back home. Everyone loved watching Nestea win with just beautiful lair based timing attacks and aggression. No one enjoys watching Infestor/Broodlord game after game after game after game after game. No one. That's why people want the Infestor nerfed. It's not just causing Zergs to win, it's causing them to win in a very boring and frustrating way. Does that open the door to buff other Zerg tech options? Perhaps it does, that remains to be seen. What we do all agree on is that that unit comp is broken and the Infestor is the reason why. Please don't pretend like zergs have plenty of options of winning in another fashion. In other to attack into a turtling opponent, zerg needs hive-tech. The zerg siege-unit is the BL and attacking without it into a line of tanks is suicide (that leaves roach-bling all-ins and perhaps a 2-2 timing, yay!). How well is DRGs 'beautiful' play doing these days? So, you argue that if the infestor gets nerfed in such a way, BLs won't be able to attack into tank lines because of ht and archons? BL are ridiculously powerful and even the suggested infestor nerf won't make them any less strong.
I'm arguing that zerg has no way of attacking into a protoss or terran, who focuses on defending, without BLs (outside of all-ins/all-in'ish timings).
I'm saying that in all the talk about BL+infestor being too strong, people forget that there is no alternative for breaking turtling opponents. Terran and Protoss get their siege-units much earlier.
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On November 22 2012 01:50 TheDwf wrote:Including results from two years ago to somehow draw conclusions about current balance issues?... The GSL Ranking has decaying points from season to season.
I corrected two errors in the numbers, by the way, but overall the same observations.
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United States1125 Posts
So I played a few games last night, but unfortunately, my Protoss opponents didn't really know the purpose of the test map. My Terran opponents, though, went for a raven rush and mass ravens. Not much use of HSM, but a lot of turrets dropped. Still, I won with mass muta and he left with a “Ravens still suck LOL.” Will need to play more games over the holiday.
This is a theorycraft suggestion: what if instead of psionic units being invincible they were just immune to the root of fungal but still did damage? Would this be enough of a nerf/buff to make toss safe and effective versus mass infestor? It just seems like a lot more of the complaints are about the root, not the damage...
I still think Warp Prisms should then lose the Psionic tag and maybe even make ravens Psionic...
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EPT
