On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
This is true. Different maps that make players do different things will mean zvp is interesting again. It's exactly what we needed all along. Every map right now is basically the exact same thing. Easy natural, close third, ramp into main, no cliffs, open center etc..
Anything that makes games look different is good imo, even if it's a little imbalanced.
That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues.
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar.
sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted.
those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something.
They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design...
It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do.
SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!"
That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan.
might not be a good idea for these maps to work in WOL units/metagame. But for certain Hots should be balanced around getting these broodwar type maps viable. For far to long we are watching this damn stale WOL meta game with basically the same maps and how they play out. ( free 3 bases for everyone) I hope to see the game balanced around much more interesting maps for hots or this game is going to die .
I liked how in BW Kespa maps, some maps were clearly in favor of a race. This was balanced by introducing other imbalanced maps. Which in turn created nail biting situations were a player would win on an unfavored map.
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar.
sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted.
those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something.
Edit: The only acceptable map here is Caldeum which is made by jacky i think. he is a know and knowledgeable mapmaker so thats ok. not sure who made the others. One more thing on Broodwar Ports: the scaling in each game is completly different so you cannot just copy a broodwar map 1:1 into sc2 with the same proportions like here. Guillotine, Arkanoid, Transistor, Bifrost and Gaema Gowon will all fail hardcore. and i know what im talking about btw, i made made several broodwarports, propably the best you can find.
New mapmakers? These are people that have made maps with the purpose of competitive play for longer than any of the Crux and ESV map makers. But if you want to have the same fucking Daybreak derivative maps and 4p maps, but actually it's bad 3p because people don't want to change how they play from map to map so one spawn config is disabled.
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
This is true. Different maps that make players do different things will mean zvp is interesting again. It's exactly what we needed all along. Every map right now is basically the exact same thing. Easy natural, close third, ramp into main, no cliffs, open center etc..
Anything that makes games look different is good imo, even if it's a little imbalanced.
That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues.
I'm fine with imbalanced maps in tournaments as long as they are imbalanced equally, if you know what I mean. Equal terran favored maps vs zerg favored maps. We'll see a lot of new builds and cheeses.
You know what my favorite map was after release? Desert Oasis. Pros hated it because it was different, and it always got vetoed. But the few times we did see it, it made for some of the most entertaining and epic games that I can remember, because people had to play different.
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar.
sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted.
those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something.
They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design...
It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do.
SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!"
That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan.
doesnt work with sc2 unit design
That's ridiculous.
"Doesn't work?" What the hell does that mean? It may not work like it does now but it sure as hell can work. That's the point...that players are forced to ADAPT to the map.
In SCII's lifetime there has been NONE of that. AND IT CAN BE DONE. It SHOULD be done.
Why do people think this is somehow bad that these maps will not allow players to do the old fast third builds, players may actually have to split up their units and thus be more cost effective, thus increasing the skill cap as players must be more efficient, also, different gameplay for each map is good, this is why TDA is my favorite sc2 map. An example, The rocks at thirds actually force people to think about taking them and act accordingly!
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 개마고원/Gaema Gowon
I'm curious to know how a natural base is going to be held on this map. Even Brood War maps eventually shifted over to having a more defendable natural, and they didn't have to worry about things such as warp gate mechanic. Aside from that, this would probably be my third favourite out of the group.
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 비프로스트/Bifrost
Lack of ramp to the main means we're likely to see a lot of Tal'Darim Altar-style shenanigans in PvP. I'm not able to do measurements (don't have the map ) but it looks like it might be possible to even warp right into the main over the high ground barrier. Usually the main is a level higher and the defender can deny pylons from being put up. Couple that with PvP issues and my initial thought is that this map is just broken. Even the HotS change for pylons to be unable to warp into high ground fails to come into play here for balancing things.
Note how all the issues revolve around new mechanics that simply weren't present when the original Brood War map was made.
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 기요틴/Guillotine
This has to be a bad joke. I can swallow every other map to a degree, but not this one. The terrain has even been adjusted in a way that makes no sense. Where before the terrain flowed into additional bases, now we have random dead-ends. What are people going to do about forcefields on this map, as well?
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 알카노이드/Arkanoid
This one's just too weird for me to comment on. I never saw any games on the original BW map, and I have no idea what will end up becoming too strong. Will it be forcefield, where the map is very choked even after taking out the infinite rocks? Or perhaps drops, which will have the ability to come out super fast due to lack of any ground pressure in the early game (can you say boring)? Or perhaps we'll just see three-base turtle fests with super greedy teching, in which case we never see a Terran win on this map?
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 칼데움/CalDeum
This would be my favourite map of the bunch. It's got some crazy stuff going on (mineral walls, neutral assimilators blocks, etc. for those who want to see something "new" and "unique" to "shake up the metagame"), while having map proportions that better fit StarCraft 2 and the abilities/mechanics it has that simply weren't present in Brood War.
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 트랜지스터/Transistor
I have one question: where do I put my production?
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 데저트 플라워/Desert Flower
Second favourite of the bunch. I don't think the proportions are as good as on CalDeum, but I think the overall concept is fairly interesting. The rich mineral bases are kind of "winner's bases", but the map layout is done in such a way that it might actually be possible to successfully harass them even when the opponent has map control. In particular:
a. The entrances into the centre are single-width ramps, meaning a big army can't just go in there and go unpunished for it b. Even if a large army is sitting in the centre, that leaves the high ground ledges open for harassment on the mineral lines c. If they want to cover all their bases and have forces on both the low and high ground, then they're effectively splitting up their army into more manageable chunks, allowing for potential comebacks -- they can't easily regroup their army together on a whim, due to the terrain.
I find that quite intriguing, and so long as the map itself plays out well I'd like to see how that interaction really unfolds in high level games.
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar.
sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted.
those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something.
They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design...
It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do.
SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!"
That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan.
I agree. I remember Artosis talking about how Protoss was having a hard time against a certain race or something and they actually introduced a few maps that were intentionally Protoss favored in BW.
It works better in Proleague or team leagues (in general) than individual leagues though (in team league, map imbalance isn't too bad since both teams know in advance which maps will be played and know which players they should send).
I personally wouldn't mind more crazy maps like Monty Hall in SC2... or maps where there are neutral buildings where you can hire mercs (or certain units that any race can use), AKA Warcraft III in... SPACE!
Right now, watching SC2 is getting a bit stale at times (unless you're follow one or two players you really like in a certain tourny). Plus, with the so called tournament over saturation, there is room for variety and crazy stuff IMO.
That's why I wouldn't mind crazy maps. Best place to test it is team leagues where it wouldn't be as imbalanced because teams will know in advance and can pick which maps and players/races to send out on specific maps.
On November 19 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote: I liked how in BW Kespa maps, some maps were clearly in favor of a race. This was balanced by introducing other imbalanced maps. Which in turn created nail biting situations were a player would win on an unfavored map.
AKA: Fantasy vs. JangBi
Only if it was a slight issue. Some maps were just absolute graveyards and crippled races in tournaments. Tears of the Moon wasn't all that great, for instance. Though sometimes map imbalance forced new strategies from impacted races that worked around the map issues and created really exciting games (mech, carriers vs scouts, and fantasy vs stork on Plasma).
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps.
jep this man speaks the truth
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta.
This is true. Different maps that make players do different things will mean zvp is interesting again. It's exactly what we needed all along. Every map right now is basically the exact same thing. Easy natural, close third, ramp into main, no cliffs, open center etc..
Anything that makes games look different is good imo, even if it's a little imbalanced.
That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues.
In league play, this matters less. In the event that one race is favored over the others, the team coaches will obviously resort to sending out a player of that race. It also opens up the possibility for specialized snipe builds and such, since most players would expect to play (and thus, practice for) a mirror matchup on imbalanced maps. Of course, if the OSL were to use all of these maps without prior results, it'd be a completely different matter.
There's also a reason why they're giving teams these maps far in advance of the games. If the teams report that the map is completely broken and cannot be salvaged, then it won't be used.
On November 19 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote: I liked how in BW Kespa maps, some maps were clearly in favor of a race. This was balanced by introducing other imbalanced maps. Which in turn created nail biting situations were a player would win on an unfavored map.
AKA: Fantasy vs. JangBi
Only if it was a slight issue. Some maps were just absolute graveyards and crippled races in tournaments. Tears of the Moon wasn't all that great, for instance. Though sometimes map imbalance forced new strategies from impacted races that worked around the map issues and created really exciting games (mech, carriers vs scouts, and fantasy vs stork on Plasma).
Central Plains was ridiculously protoss favored, but some of the most memorable (for me, at least) PvP matches took place on that map. It was awesome seeing things like cannon/reaver/shield battery contains and games that lasted long enough for arbiters to be fielded.
I think most of you fail to realize what happens when a third base isn't somewhat easy to take. Yes, 1 or 2 base all-ins every game, which is basically what we saw for the first year of WoL. If Protoss can't get a safe 3rd, their only option is either 2 base all-in, or grab a very late 3rd. If you grab a late 3rd, you're behind because the zerg is still going to get his 3rd by the 6-7 minute mark. If the 3rd is too difficult, not only do we see 2 base all-ins constantly from protoss, but zerg also complain because they now can't hold their 3rds because they are too far away from their other bases. Terran probably have the best option but that's only because marines, tanks & pforts are good enough to hold bases fairly easily.
It's cool they are trying new things out, I'm all for tournaments picking up new maps, but man, these maps blow and would be so god damn awful in sc2.
On November 19 2012 11:27 JeffGoldblum wrote: New mapmakers? These are people that have made maps with the purpose of competitive play for longer than any of the Crux and ESV map makers. But if you want to have the same fucking Daybreak derivative maps and 4p maps, but actually it's bad 3p because people don't want to change how they play from map to map so one spawn config is disabled.
They have not made SC2 maps longer. BW mapping does not always transfer over well.
Current mappers want innovation, tournaments and players won't use it. Also ESV never releases maps with blocked spawns. Don't blame us.
On November 19 2012 11:27 JeffGoldblum wrote: New mapmakers? These are people that have made maps with the purpose of competitive play for longer than any of the Crux and ESV map makers. But if you want to have the same fucking Daybreak derivative maps and 4p maps, but actually it's bad 3p because people don't want to change how they play from map to map so one spawn config is disabled.
They have not made SC2 maps longer. BW mapping does not always transfer over well.
Current mappers want innovation, tournaments and players won't use it. Also ESV never releases maps with blocked spawns. Don't blame us.
I don't think it's fair that current mapmakers get blamed for this either. The sc2 custom map section of TL.net is filled with wacky, innovative maps that never get any attention because tournaments only pick maps the players want, and players want maps that they already know and practice on. I get that tournaments are trying to cater to the players to make it as good of a tournament environment as possible but sooner or later viewer numbers are going to suffer because of it. Daybreak was a great map, and has been the #1 used and praised tournament map for almost a year. Let it die already, and allow for new maps to take that title.
Excited to see any new maps, especially from people with a long history of map making. Donno how much you can really judge a map before its even been played a few times, lets let it play out. They can always pull the ones that end up being ridiculous.
On November 19 2012 15:56 SidianTheBard wrote: I think most of you fail to realize what happens when a third base isn't somewhat easy to take. Yes, 1 or 2 base all-ins every game, which is basically what we saw for the first year of WoL. If Protoss can't get a safe 3rd, their only option is either 2 base all-in, or grab a very late 3rd. If you grab a late 3rd, you're behind because the zerg is still going to get his 3rd by the 6-7 minute mark. If the 3rd is too difficult, not only do we see 2 base all-ins constantly from protoss, but zerg also complain because they now can't hold their 3rds because they are too far away from their other bases. Terran probably have the best option but that's only because marines, tanks & pforts are good enough to hold bases fairly easily.
It's cool they are trying new things out, I'm all for tournaments picking up new maps, but man, these maps blow and would be so god damn awful in sc2.
Yes, we do realize we will see 1 or 2 base all-ins every game. But its better than seeing 20 minutes macro games(drone, drone, drone) with only one big final battle. And for those who prefer macro games there are plenty of tournaments with big macro maps(GSL, GSTL, MLG, IPL, Dreamhack and others).
Personally I prefer to watch sick micro with limited number of units than 200/200 deathball against deathball.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wL734.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BhVBo.jpg)
) but it looks like it might be possible to even warp right into the main over the high ground barrier. Usually the main is a level higher and the defender can deny pylons from being put up. Couple that with PvP issues and my initial thought is that this map is just broken. Even the HotS change for pylons to be unable to warp into high ground fails to come into play here for balancing things.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/akDnl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IcdFN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E05G0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e70Z7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qoA4D.jpg)
