EPTThis is pretty cool :D
source: ThisIsGame
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wL734.jpg)
개마고원/Gaema Gowon
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BhVBo.jpg)
비프로스트/Bifrost
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/akDnl.jpg)
기요틴/Guillotine
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IcdFN.jpg)
알카노이드/Arkanoid
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E05G0.jpg)
칼데움/CalDeum
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e70Z7.jpg)
트랜지스터/Transistor
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qoA4D.jpg)
데저트 플라워/Desert Flower
KeSPA SC2 Maps being developed for next Proleague
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
This is pretty cool :D source: ThisIsGame 개마고원/Gaema Gowon 비프로스트/Bifrost 기요틴/Guillotine 알카노이드/Arkanoid 칼데움/CalDeum 트랜지스터/Transistor 데저트 플라워/Desert Flower | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
Aside from that, the maps do look diverse and interesting. I just hope there won't be too many exploits or racial imbalances. | ||
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Odoakar
Croatia1837 Posts
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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MyFirstProbe
Netherlands294 Posts
By the way, does anyone know when the next star/proleague starts? | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Terrix
Germany305 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:11 ArvickHero wrote: you have bifrost and guillotine mixed up. New maps look pretty wack, I love it :D thanks for the spot! | ||
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
Gaema Gowon and BiFrost, so fucking old school | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:17 MyFirstProbe wrote: O my, when I saw this I started screaming... Sooo excited! By the way, does anyone know when the next star/proleague starts? i've heard prelims are pretty soon | ||
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MyFirstProbe
Netherlands294 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
Hope it will be used in Proleague too. | ||
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milesfacade
United Kingdom799 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:15 memcpy wrote: I feel like increasing the number of maps that players are required to play will decrease the overall quality of games. Less time to prepare map specific builds or strategies and less time to practice against others. Aside from that, the maps do look diverse and interesting. I just hope there won't be too many exploits or racial imbalances. players aren't going to be preparing for every single map in the Proleague format, often times players are assigned to practicing only 1-3 maps per round .. they'll have even more preparation than your typical tournament or GSTL game. And OSL probably will only incorporate 1-2 maps from these maps, while keeping the rest of the older maps to maintain balance. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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winsause
United States65 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8306 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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Steins;Gate
1422 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Awesome | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:19 Terrix wrote: Weren't these maps specifically designed for the racial imbalances in bw? I feel like they wouldn't just "port" over to sc2 so well... Maybe all of the ported maps are so oldschool that they'd be horrificly imba in today's BW metagame. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Of those maps Bifrost is the only one I really like. On November 16 2012 06:25 ArvickHero wrote: all of the ported maps are so oldschool that they'd be horrificly imba in today's BW metagame. Precisely, which leads me to why? | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
Happy bifrost is in ^_^ Love the idea of a natural behind your main and on high ground... don't know if it will work though. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
This is gonna be awesome, wanna see some of the really legendary maps in there | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
Gonna be fun if anything :p | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:25 StarStruck wrote: I find the BW maps that they picked to be interesting. Of those maps Bifrost is the only one I really like. Precisely, which leads me to why? Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks? :p | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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Grampz
United States2147 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:20 MyFirstProbe wrote: Woops, I see gold bases in there, let's see how that works out. The transistor map does look really cool though. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:25 StarStruck wrote: I find the BW maps that they picked to be interesting. Of those maps Bifrost is the only one I really like. Precisely, which leads me to why? sc2 is a different game, so it's perfect to try out old concepts to see if they work with a new game. If anything, it'll spice things up and help give map makers all around a new, fresh perspective on map design and balance. Remember, KeSPA players will be preparing for these maps for Proleague. These maps will be dissected to the very last detail o_o | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:27 Fragile51 wrote: Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks? :p Not unlikely, and actually a pretty good idea. Something has to be done, anyway - why not this? | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:29 Zealously wrote: Not unlikely, and actually a pretty good idea. Something has to be done, anyway - why not this? They're literally going to set up a room in their team houses just for throwing shit at walls. | ||
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Stress
United States980 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:30 KristofferAG wrote: They're literally going to set up a room in their team houses just for throwing shit at walls. Literally | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:30 N.geNuity wrote: kespa teams normally test new maps, wonder if they did the same process with these. bnet's system is that you have to publish these maps before you can actually play them w/ other players, so the testing period will start now or very very soon I guess. Changes and maps being dropped are definitely to be expected. Proleague will remain Bo5 am I correct? I think they'll just pick the 5 most balanced maps out of these 7 | ||
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kaiser_byrnes
Canada6 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:28 ArvickHero wrote: sc2 is a different game, so it's perfect to try out old concepts to see if they work with a new game. If anything, it'll spice things up and help give map makers all around a new, fresh perspective on map design and balance. Remember, KeSPA players will be preparing for these maps for Proleague. These maps will be dissected to the very last detail o_o Also, KeSPA is still trying to transition BW fans. What better way than picking maps with a RICH history and which have such an EMOTIONAL draw on spectators who witnessed UNBELIEVABLE battles on these same battlefields!!! | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:33 ArvickHero wrote: bnet's system is that you have to publish these maps before you can actually play them w/ other players, so the testing period will start now or very very soon I guess. Changes and maps being dropped are definitely to be expected. Proleague will remain Bo5 am I correct? I think they'll just pick the 5 most balanced maps out of these 7 I've actually not heard anything about them changing the format. Bo5 could be very very short, though. Bo7 would be nice, at least. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:30 KristofferAG wrote: They're literally going to set up a room in their team houses just for throwing shit at walls. wow, explains the scat. kespa mapmakers are venturing into our LR threads and seeing what we think of their maps | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:35 opterown wrote: wow, explains the scat. kespa mapmakers are venturing into out LR threads and seeing what we think of their maps they were met with some pretty shitty feedback huehuehue | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:35 KristofferAG wrote: I've actually not heard anything about them changing the format. Bo5 could be very very short, though. Bo7 would be nice, at least. Yeah hoping for bo7 too. Moar gaemz. | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:38 Fragile51 wrote: they were met with some pretty shitty feedback huehuehue Just gonna go ahead and stop this before it becomes one of those crappy puntrains from reddit. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:35 KristofferAG wrote: I've actually not heard anything about them changing the format. Bo5 could be very very short, though. Bo7 would be nice, at least. My guess would be Bo5, due to downsizing of teams and the fact that OGN sometimes has to broadcast 2 games in a row. Proleague was for the most part Bo5 anyways, and I don't think matches were too short | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
thats alot of highground for broods to fire from On November 16 2012 06:32 Stress wrote: This is awesome. For those of you worried about "bad ports", KeSPA isn't going to put an imbalanced map into a tournament, the teams will test them out and see how it goes. I didnt follow BW until very recently, but it was my understanding that some BW maps were made to be Imbalanced for certain races, and it has always been like that | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
I .. uh you know some of these maps are really out there. But I want map makers to really push the limits of map design instead of making another version of Tal'darim Altar. So hey, this is great stuff! | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
Also nice to see that they're trying out some new stuff with their original SC2 maps. Just hope it works. | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:39 ArvickHero wrote: My guess would be Bo5, due to downsizing of teams and the fact that OGN sometimes has to broadcast 2 games in a row. Proleague was for the most part Bo5 anyways, and I don't think matches were too short If they're going for two games in a row, I could understand a Bo5, but if it's only going to be a single game per broadcast, Bo5 would make very little sense. We're talking a 2-hour stream then. | ||
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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Koesader
Netherlands424 Posts
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:32 Stress wrote: This is awesome. For those of you worried about "bad ports", KeSPA isn't going to put an imbalanced map into a tournament, the teams will test them out and see how it goes. battle royale tears of the protoss plasma baekmagoji demons forest DMZ hmmmmmmmmm | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16095 Posts
Love that Kespa is doing this. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:42 KristofferAG wrote: If they're going for two games in a row, I could understand a Bo5, but if it's only going to be a single game per broadcast, Bo5 would make very little sense. We're talking a 2-hour stream then. ............ 2 hours is short? Remember, this is gonna be on TV .. and it'll be live on a very regular basis. I think Bo7 will be too exhausting, for both the viewers and players. | ||
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mute20
Canada175 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:27 Fragile51 wrote: Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks? :p I actually like that idea. | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:44 ArvickHero wrote: ............ 2 hours is short? Remember, this is gonna be on TV .. and it'll be live on a very regular basis. I think Bo7 will be too exhausting, for both the viewers and players. Well, 2 hours is short for me, but yeah, I can see how it would be considered enough for... a lot of other people. I'm just very used to very long streams. | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2575 Posts
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:43 rauk wrote: battle royale tears of the protoss plasma baekmagoji demons forest DMZ hmmmmmmmmm add Monty Hall and a bunch of island maps as well ^^ | ||
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
Currently the game is not balanced around the maps like it was in BW, it is balanced by Blizzard, which means if tournaments start to develop totally different maps, balance is gonna be up in the air unless one of the parts stop trying to balance the game. I think this will cause a lot of problems, but it does get my interest, since I enjoy watching new strategies unfold. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:28 ArvickHero wrote: sc2 is a different game, so it's perfect to try out old concepts to see if they work with a new game. If anything, it'll spice things up and help give map makers all around a new, fresh perspective on map design and balance. Remember, KeSPA players will be preparing for these maps for Proleague. These maps will be dissected to the very last detail o_o That's the obvious answer and I don't even think it needs to be said. That's why I left it out. Like the other guy said, "Let's throw shit at a wall and see what sticks!" | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
esports fighting | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
Like T1 or Khan with a strong protoss lineup will vote in maps that are protoss favorite. | ||
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:45 KristofferAG wrote: Well, 2 hours is short for me, but yeah, I can see how it would be considered enough for... a lot of other people. I'm just very used to very long streams. 2 hours is a very long time to spend almost everyday watching something, the GSL can sometimes broadcast 4-5 hours, and its 4-6 days a week, every week, that in my opinion is far too much content over a short period of time, which is why I stopped watching a lot of GSL and only catch some if I have free time or my favorite players are playing. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
It's a shame for the ESV guys if we end up playing on these and ignoring their work, but god damnit I'm sick of watching Daybreak. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
I like the looks of these maps, but am I the only one that dreads the idea of them becoming so popular, "Ladder Editions" get released? I mean, BW style maps with the mandatory legal "ALL BASES 8 MINS 2G!!!" kindof make me shudder. Violently, and all over the place. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Testuser
6469 Posts
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Ornithorynquez
430 Posts
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:50 Noocta wrote: Finally we might have an organisation who do something about maps It's a shame for the ESV guys if we end up playing on these and ignoring their work, but god damnit I'm sick of watching Daybreak. It's always nice to see changes in the map pool, as long as the maps actually work. Either way this'll be fun. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:14 kochanfe wrote: some of these are going to be really imbalanced though... Don't worry, KESPA cycles out bad maps in a jiffy. | ||
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
Finally some variety too. We got to drum blizzard to completely revamp the ladder map pool too, and this seems like a good place to start. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
Edit: also, Caldeum using mineral blockers! | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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mjuuy
Norway506 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:55 wo1fwood wrote: the whole map pool? O.O well this sure piqued my interest. No its not wtf, BW changes all the time. | ||
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paradoxOO9
United Kingdom1123 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:51 felisconcolori wrote: Maybe a sticky wall would be helpful... I like the looks of these maps, but am I the only one that dreads the idea of them becoming so popular, "Ladder Editions" get released? I mean, BW style maps with the mandatory legal "ALL BASES 8 MINS 2G!!!" kindof make me shudder. Violently, and all over the place. Yeah, I would have loved 6min 1hyg or something - it'd been really interesting. But, I guess you can only ask for so much. | ||
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:13 Aunvilgod wrote: Thats gonna fuck the metagame up. Players will need to adapt. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! It's about damn time someone was willing to fukc up the metagame. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
this I know (didn't intend a wtf meaning), but it's nice to see a tourney actually do it in sc2. | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
But yeah, honestly tournaments need to shake up their map pools more for viewers. I know Daybreak is basically balanced as all hell, so progamers like it, but we like shiny new things. So I'm hoping OSL do look into including new maps. And perhaps even GSL needs to look into a rotation of maps. Like it has 10+ in it's pool and it uses a certain 7 in one season. That would be pretty sweet to be honest. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
I don't even care if they turn out bad, it's just nice to see maps that are so different. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:00 bokchoi wrote: Interesting pick of old-school maps to port. Excited to see what maps make the cut. I wonder who KeSPA's mapmakers for SC2 are Probably the same group of guys, they do wonderful job for years. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:13 Aunvilgod wrote: Thats gonna fuck the metagame up. Players will need to adapt. You speak as if that's a bad thing. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
These maps are very interesting to say the least. I hope KeSPA takes a lot of risks in their map pool to keep gameplay fresh, even if it might mean some imbalance. Who knows, maybe a few of their maps might be balanced and interesting enough to be worthy of ladder. On November 16 2012 07:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They should recreate peaks of baekdu, the first "3D" map All I can say is... + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:03 bittman wrote: Haha oh wow, most of these are going to be amazingly imbalanced. But yeah, honestly tournaments need to shake up their map pools more for viewers. I know Daybreak is basically balanced as all hell, so progamers like it, but we like shiny new things. So I'm hoping OSL do look into including new maps. And perhaps even GSL needs to look into a rotation of maps. Like it has 10+ in it's pool and it uses a certain 7 in one season. That would be pretty sweet to be honest. BW had really imbalanced maps sprinkled it all the time (happens when you experiment) but you have to remember that is also how they kept the game fresh, Daybreak got beyond way too old so long it's not even funny. Kind of funny how they're trying pre standard nat bw maps but should be fun to see how it goes. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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lannisport
878 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:07 ZerglingTwins wrote: New maps can certainly help on some balance issues. And some will make them ten times worse. I still think that's a good thing, though - all maps can't be 50/50 all the time and still be innovative and fun to watch. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
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FinalForm
United States450 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:11 Zealously wrote: And some will make them ten times worse. I still think that's a good thing, though - all maps can't be 50/50 all the time and still be innovative and fun to watch. Sure, that's why we need to try. I would hope for less balance whine, more map whine plz. Let the map help out terran and protoss. | ||
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GaryOakSC2
Germany14 Posts
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Meldon
Greece128 Posts
Woohoo something to wait for. This category's stagnant since the bw pros switched. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:14 ZerglingTwins wrote: Sure, that's why we need to try. I would hope for less balance whine, more map whine plz. ick, the whine about atlantis and metropolis was pretty bad haha | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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LTY
United States223 Posts
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CommanderMander
Canada20 Posts
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Ornithorynquez
430 Posts
They might not be balanced for now, but they feel so much right to my eyes that the sc2 ones. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:15 opterown wrote: ick, the whine about atlantis and metropolis was pretty bad haha That's still better than recent balance whine. Because it can be easily changed, people will believe they have a chance with another map, not another race. Better for esports. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:16 CommanderMander wrote: What, no Luna The Final? Python and hunter plz!!! | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
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droken
Sweden126 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
They are willing to take it further and fuck up the current state of the game to provide for a better game longterm. Gogogogo KeSPA! Fuck up the current state of the game! | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
Haha, what a blast from the past! So cool! I thought I'd seen the last of Guillotine though -_- | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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Kaw
United States74 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:22 urashimakt wrote: I feel like porting BW maps to SC2 is a mistake. There's more rules you have to consider when designing a SC2 map. Seeing these maps being played will tell us how important those rules actually are. I'm glad they are trying to mix things up. | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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Cutebone
United States62 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:15 memcpy wrote: I feel like increasing the number of maps that players are required to play will decrease the overall quality of games. Less time to prepare map specific builds or strategies and less time to practice against others. Aside from that, the maps do look diverse and interesting. I just hope there won't be too many exploits or racial imbalances. Hmmm, I think it would have the opposite effect. Think about it in the most simple terms...shouldn't more maps equal more map-specific builds? We're not talking about adding hundreds of maps here right? A few more maps here and there will create more diverse thinking/strategy and subsequently better games. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
i mean holy shit look at Guillotine, its like kulols ravine all over again | ||
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MangoMountain
Norway2044 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:34 Disengaged wrote: Some of these maps won't work in SC2. How can you tell when nobody's tried? | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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trashman
United States113 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
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Ripeace
34 Posts
Sadly foreigner tournaments are too scared to add new maps to their map pool. | ||
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ChosenBrad1322
United States562 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
Long time, no fucking see. Looking forward to this. | ||
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WArped
United Kingdom4845 Posts
Very excited for the next proleague season. | ||
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
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Spacekyod
United States818 Posts
Transistor looks pretty interesting. I can't wait to see games played on these maps. | ||
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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MCXD
Australia2738 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:35 MangoMountain wrote: Seriously, this. I have no idea how people can say that basically anything "won't work in SC2", considering that every map that tries to innovate even a little bit is shot down before it can even get near a weekly cup. I'm not a fan of KeSPA's business dealings, but big kudos for them for taking a risk and trying to shake things up.How can you tell when nobody's tried? | ||
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NMHU.
Canada110 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:22 BigBossX wrote: This is great news. IMO there's nothing worse as a spectator than watching 100s of games on the same shitty maps over and over. Hundred of thousands of LoL fans would like to have a word with you I think... | ||
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mtn
729 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:46 NMHU. wrote: Hundred of thousands of LoL fans would like to have a word with you I think... Moba is moba and RTS is RTS. | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
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CableSCES
United States367 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
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PhoenixLight
43 Posts
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tuoli9
Finland211 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3685 Posts
Somebody please upload these to the eu/na server when they come out. | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Gaema Gowon: ZvP: Protoss won't get a third. Not even sure if they can get a second. I'd just 14/14 here and never let protoss scout while harassing the second. Then either all-in or fast triple hatch. Protoss should have a really easy time doing a cannon rush. With no sensor tower in mid, zerg counter attacks are three times as strong and protoss will have a lot better time hiding proxies. Don't think there's any good place to put an overlord to scout the natural gas. ZvT: The paths were well for Terran mech the best here. With how spawns work, I'd expect one of the old TvZ pushes where you siege tanks on the low ground and slowly medivac push your way into zergs main. PvP: Tails new build should be good. Blink stalkers are way stronger here as well with high ground above the natural. PvT: Getting to three base toss will be hell here. Too much dead space for medivacs. If Terran is in good position, they have two attack paths to the nat or third. If our of position, they can land factory and toss could be dead. Toss needs to have the main army way out in front where there is only one choke. Has tal'darim symptom for TvT where you pray you're facing the other Terran's main so you can easily harass and kill them. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
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Utopi
Denmark176 Posts
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Adellund
Denmark92 Posts
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
ZvP: This is much more reasonable. Protoss can easily wall off the natural. Depending on the chokes, they could even sneak really fast hidden expos against a zerg. Timing's against a third would be great. But if it goes into the late late game and zerg gets mid control, they auto get 2 easy to defend bases in the center. The entire map is one plane, so creep spread spine crawler will be a problem. I'd really like to know if you can build things on top of the cliffs. If you can, protoss should never lose as I'd just build cannons up there with a warp prism and then do a 10 gate. Maybe i'd land a warp prism on top of the cliff, FF the main and then warp in everything into the main. I'd abuse protoss here as zerg by regular pool, but early drone scout. You can then build a hatch at the choke and mass lings and then go win. Or if I saw an early forge, I'd just hatch at his natural. The nat is too far from the main so I think zerg wuld still be a bit ahead. If they get a queen up and creep tumor down, it would be really far ahead. ZvT: This will be hell for Terran. The creep spread is extremely easy on this map. On the other hand, if you can land medivacs on the cliffs, it'll be hell on zerg. 3 base mech and 3 base pushes would be great here. Similarly, Broodlords may be too strong with the pahts closed off like this. Ultras look really bad on this map. It's impossible for zerg to hide a base. The map formation in terms of expansions is good for Terran scouting and medivac harrassment. PvP: 4 gate all-day everyday. TvT: Should be fine. | ||
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silent_owl
Philippines3098 Posts
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
Wonder how that map would play out in SC2... | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
Really looking forward to this. The stale, boring metagame has made me fed up of SC2 recently and I'm watching it a hell of a lot less than I used to. | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
I would much better like it if they just made completely new maps. | ||
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1213 Posts
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On November 16 2012 07:52 PhoenixLight wrote: There's alot of xel'nagas missing from these maps. I think that's really a first for sc2 maps right...? I'm really interested to see if and how game play might evolve without the towers... wow no xel nagas is gonna be really cool. I am glad they are taking the initiative to push things forward and keep things from being stale. Being on a team(or having buddies) is more important than ever for these players since these aren`t on ladder. | ||
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:16 BoggieMan wrote: BW maps haven't been good in sc2 so far, so i don't really think its a good idea. I would much better like it if they just made completely new maps. only the first 4 are remakes | ||
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Brett
Australia3821 Posts
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silent_owl
Philippines3098 Posts
First off, against P, it would be FF heaven and Warp Prisms would be able to make use of ranged units on the cliffs as well as warp in some more there. For T, they could rush to medivacs and have no problem at all with most Z early game compositions. Of course, these are only first impressions and I know that the Kespa map-makers are good at dissecting game mechanics and analyzing them for the map-making process. I'm real excited and I hope these maps end up with some sick creative play. | ||
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Logic.jake
United States37 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:20 Brett wrote: As a 'BW guy' who likes SC2 enough to watch, I don't want many, if any, BW maps. They just will not work with the game we have today. They only look like that as nobody has ever tried. Any time a slightly imbalanced map went near the map pool minus at release people complained so much (including players) that they never make it into tournaments. | ||
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Kittan
Poland3999 Posts
I might just be tempted to watch the Proleague again just to see the maps play out. Also, obligatory Terran & siege tank imba on all new maps (learn, SC2 community xD). | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:27 TeeTS wrote: These maps are designed in a totally unorthodox style. It's very hard to tell, if they are imbalanced or not, but one thing is sure: they will have to be played totally different than the maps, we currently have. While innovation in maps is never a bad thing, you have to be careful with drastic changes. And bringing BW maps into the game is a very questionable choice, since SC2 plays out totally different than BW. But I would rather have completely different style of play on these maps than the current map pools. On top of this, I would love to see them cycling through maps each season, re-using only some of the maps. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
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a3den
704 Posts
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
Auto approve. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:29 supernovamaniac wrote: But I would rather have completely different style of play on these maps than the current map pools. On top of this, I would love to see them cycling through maps each season, re-using only some of the maps. On one hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a few GSL maps or ladder maps still in the map pool. On the other hand, I really want to see KeSPA take control of their own map pool to try out crazy stuff that may or may not stick. A cycling pool of crazy maps may keep things fresh for viewers, especially in Proleague where racial imbalances can be addressed by roster decisions. | ||
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Metafour
United States137 Posts
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MasterCynical
505 Posts
I think I like kulas Ravine better. These are going to make some pretty faced paced, exciting games = ) | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
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Shadow_Dog
Canada427 Posts
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:20 zerious wrote: omggg Gaema Gowon and BiFrost, so fucking old school Zergs are going to cry, just like in those times. + Show Spoiler + Lies, Zergs don't cry. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37041 Posts
Man I hope these maps won't scream imba... GOOD LUCK KESPA! | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
i like the way the english name is two syllables, and the same name in korean is FIVE | ||
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TangYiChen
Korea (South)195 Posts
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Atrbyg
United States513 Posts
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:18 mrtomjones wrote: It is hard to tell with such small pictures but some of these look like they will have some... balance issues.... Calm down, around 60-70% of KESPA test maps never get approved. I still remember when they presented a map with a bomberman layout, dont remember the name of the map but THAT was a wacky map, the map never got approved. | ||
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moochu
Australia374 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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tj341
United States147 Posts
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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pivor
Poland198 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:51 ZAiNs wrote: Pretty much every map looks terrible. Protoss especially will be a completely different race on most of these maps when it takes a billion forcefields to do anything and Forge expands don't work properly. lol u realise that FFE was invented and developed on these exact maps in BW right? What makes u think you won't be able to do the same thing in sc2, where the FFE is even stronger and safer than in BW | ||
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Detri
United Kingdom683 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:51 ZAiNs wrote: Pretty much every map looks terrible. Protoss especially will be a completely different race on most of these maps when it takes a billion forcefields to do anything and Forge expands don't work properly. this, 1000% this. without a safe 3rd the metagame as we know it collapses | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:55 Detri wrote: this, 1000% this. without a safe 3rd the metagame as we know it collapses Good, the current metagame is extremely boring. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:19 snively wrote: 비프로스트/Bifrost i like the way the english name is two syllables, and the same name in korean is FIVE english cheats in syllables the fact that we must say "choke too large, will need too much FF" is extremely saddening; how maps must work around FF. if FF was a person, i'd beat the fuck out of him out of maddening hatred. or browder if i see him. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:55 Detri wrote: this, 1000% this. without a safe 3rd the metagame as we know it collapses In this area, i defer my judgement to Kespa. They balanced BW with maps, the current metagame needs to collapse because its both boring and not terribly well balanced. If these maps don't work, i'm sure they will make ones that do. Anyhow, its only 6 months until hots and i'll bet Kespa already has some map makers on the job for that. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:19 snively wrote: 비프로스트/Bifrost i like the way the english name is two syllables, and the same name in korean is FIVE Gotta pronounce it in Korean English bro Fuh-Roh-Seh-Tuh  | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
english is a bastard language that is very simple, especially compared to many asian languages that developed over many centuries, english as spoken today is completely different from that spoken just 200 years ago. Most people would land in 1800's England and understand hardly a word. | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:03 emythrel wrote: english is a bastard language that is very simple, especially compared to many asian languages that developed over many centuries, english as spoken today is completely different from that spoken just 200 years ago. Most people would land in 1800's England and understand hardly a word. same applies to korean (old korean) korean syllable isn't hard to understand, 1 block = 1 syllable, its clear cut but in english, vowels and consonants twist and turn to make it into one syllable like "frost" starts with F, add a little rrr sound, connect it with O then give a little SSSS then end with T. thats cheating (compared to korean)learning haiku in english was confusing as fuck | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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jnd
Czech Republic915 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:55 Detri wrote: this, 1000% this. without a safe 3rd the metagame as we know it collapses That's the problem, everyone expect safe 3rd but what about a change to not so easy 3 base play? I want more variety than just pure macro power builds on any side. Expand only when you actually have something to back it up. I want to see fights over vulnerable expansions outside the map edge. Or completely different styles and possibilities. Bring back the backdoors, the temporarily safe isolated expansions, droppable ledges and all that wonderful stuff which makes the game more exciting, less straightforward and requires some innovation. With current map pool trends we wouldn't get anywhere far as BW did. Hopefully when HotS arrives maps like these will come and shine. Don't be afraid to try new things guys, the game is supposed to be dynamic and have new suprising ways to play. | ||
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haitike
Spain2719 Posts
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
although i didnt foloow broodwar at all i really like that there are new maps because i get bored with the current map pool in most tournaments. and i was kinda sad that there werent any new ones for a while. and since it only affects kespa tournaments im totally fine with it balancewise. gives kespa tournaments a more unique feeling and If some decent maps prevail.. maybe some make it even to other tournaments and to ladder someday^^ maybe they are inbalanced in the beginning but thats not our problem since only kespa player have to use it :D and they can improve and come up with other fresh maps in the future. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Imzoo
132 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:11 jnd wrote: That's the problem, everyone expect safe 3rd but what about a change to not so easy 3 base play? I want more variety than just pure macro power builds on any side. Expand only when you actually have something to back it up. I want to see fights over vulnerable expansions outside the map edge. Or completely different styles and possibilities. Bring back the backdoors, the temporarily safe isolated expansions, droppable ledges and all that wonderful stuff which makes the game more exciting, less straightforward and requires some innovation. With current map pool trends we wouldn't get anywhere far as BW did. Hopefully when HotS arrives maps like these will come and shine. Don't be afraid to try new things guys, the game is supposed to be dynamic and have new suprising ways to play. Mr rock make a child | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:10 DMXD wrote: Oh god Arkanoid is back.... but should be interesting in sc2 gameplay. O_O all I could think was "oh god Arkanoid, so excited!" | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:16 Sawamura wrote: expected fighting spirit to be port to sc2 ...... FS was ported long time ago by Iccup. | ||
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haitike
Spain2719 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:18 Promethelax wrote: all I could think was "oh god Arkanoid, so excited!" I still remember Savior games in Aracanoid. Specially the games against Iris and Nada. So awesome games. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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malaan
365 Posts
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
Ya fuck Kespa maps!!! Let's keep trusting Blizzard to make balanced map like they've always shown a commitment to through their history! Thank god Blizzard made such good maps for BW and SC2! Kepsa always has shown a history of making such bad maps... Thank god for new maps. | ||
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haitike
Spain2719 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:30 malaan wrote: they are plain bad in SC2. Siege tanks and force fields make them pretty much 99% in favor of not Zerg. That sounds good to me. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:20 haitike wrote: I still remember Savior games in Aracanoid. Specially the games against Iris and Nada. So awesome games. I think the balance in SC2 will not work to make these maps epic as they once were. But I pray. (Just realized that sounded like balance whine, it isn't. What I mean is that things are balanced differently in WoL than they were in BW) | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:11 jnd wrote: That's the problem, everyone expect safe 3rd but what about a change to not so easy 3 base play? I want more variety than just pure macro power builds on any side. Expand only when you actually have something to back it up. I want to see fights over vulnerable expansions outside the map edge. Or completely different styles and possibilities. Bring back the backdoors, the temporarily safe isolated expansions, droppable ledges and all that wonderful stuff which makes the game more exciting, less straightforward and requires some innovation. With current map pool trends we wouldn't get anywhere far as BW did. Hopefully when HotS arrives maps like these will come and shine. Don't be afraid to try new things guys, the game is supposed to be dynamic and have new suprising ways to play. Toss is going to die in PvZ. Mass muta play to rule them all. | ||
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Raiquer
Sweden98 Posts
When do the next StarLeague and the next ProLeague start? Thanks in advance. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
On November 16 2012 10:34 Sabu113 wrote: Toss is going to die in PvZ. Mass muta play to rule them all. in the same page Zerg has been 99% UP, and then dominant over toss -_- open mind before complaining | ||
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G.K.
United States105 Posts
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RiceAgainst
United States1849 Posts
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lordofsoup
United States159 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ Bit of a snap judgement, wait and see until there's games on these maps. | ||
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nmetasch
United States600 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
I wonder if they're gonna port fighting spirit (lololol) | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ while I agree I'm glad to see any new maps put into tournament play. If we could have a huge tourney on TL produced maps I'd be excited about that too. | ||
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Laryleprakon
New Zealand9496 Posts
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TeslasPigeon
464 Posts
I welcome the new maps. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:17 Promethelax wrote: while I agree I'm glad to see any new maps put into tournament play. If we could have a huge tourney on TL produced maps I'd be excited about that too. I would be too. It would be more productive than just whining about it. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:17 zhurai wrote: nice. I wonder if they're gonna port fighting spirit (lololol) The FS map I played in SC2 long ago was actually quite good... | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
GOM should step up their game too. Make it like MSL vs OSL with two almost different map pool. | ||
Spazer
Canada8031 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ The one huge advantage Kespa has over every amateur mapmaker is the player base. When you have progamer houses testing every inch of these maps for you, you're going to learn what works and what doesn't pretty damn quick. This generation of maps may not be the most balanced, but I don't doubt for a moment that Kespa will begin putting out quality maps in the future. Edit: GOM/the ESF teams have a similar advantage, only they seemingly don't use it. Maybe this will spur them into action. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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GohgamX
Canada1096 Posts
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ While that is certainly true anything tried to at least shake up meta game and try some different style maps is certainly a step in right direction. While most of those maps look completely unplayable at least it shows a willingness to experiment that a lot of tournaments are lacking at the moment. | ||
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Glenn313
United States475 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
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Entirety
1423 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Map pools in general need an overhaul. It's getting to the point where even Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom are getting stale =/ not a good sign. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
On November 16 2012 12:32 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: cool, at least sounds better than their previous map pool -_- Map pools in general need an overhaul. It's getting to the point where even Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom are getting stale =/ not a good sign. This, the whole map pool feels stale to me at this point. This is one of the things I look forward to most when PL announced it was switching over. I was hoping for a new injection of maps to rotate through constantly! | ||
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
sigh, such a good map | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:59 mordk wrote: Good news, but most of the map transitions don't work well on SC2, we'll have to see if KeSPA can pull it off they wan to kill the metagame and forge a new one with their maps..its next to impossible though since the world does not revolve around their maps like it did in BW. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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C0MMANDO
71 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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cresse
United States59 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On November 16 2012 12:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: they wan to kill the metagame and forge a new one with their maps.. I think we all hope they succeed. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
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GTR
51496 Posts
On November 16 2012 12:56 supernovamaniac wrote: Also title should be changed to ProLeague not StarLeague.... unless I've been reading 프로리그 as 스타리그 Nah, it's Proleague; OGN have their own separate map team to make maps for the OSL. But I wouldn't be surprised if OGN scraps using ladder maps and go back to using the two KeSPA/two OGN map system of the past. It doesn't help Blizzard are lazy as fuck on updating the ladder pool. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
I mean some of them are bound to be horrible imbalanced, but since the map scene is so dead, this is what we need to kick start it. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
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stfouri
Finland272 Posts
Guess thats the point of them. | ||
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kevinmon
United States540 Posts
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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TT1
Canada10011 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
I hope the maps work out well, it'll be great to finally get some new maps into the game. | ||
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ This is definitely true. Someone in this thread said something like "the map scene is so dead" but really it's not, it's just hugely ignored by tournaments and Blizzard. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
Anyone know if they are on NA server? | ||
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myideal
China6 Posts
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16095 Posts
On November 16 2012 13:23 DrowSwordsman wrote: This is definitely true. Someone in this thread said something like "the map scene is so dead" but really it's not, it's just hugely ignored by tournaments and Blizzard. The tournaments are more to blame imo | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On November 16 2012 14:35 Vindicare605 wrote: The tournaments are more to blame imo Completely agreed. This is definitely a step in the right direction. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
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steventcyh
China70 Posts
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
Would be awesome. | ||
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Black[CAT]
Malaysia2589 Posts
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Slackzftw
Germany361 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
I can't even begin to comprehend all of the exploits these maps are going to lead to... half of them don't even have an accessible 3rd base. Nightmare for protoss... I'm sure other maps have their imbalances for other races as well... I have no other words than this: This looks really, really awful. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:00 -Kyo- wrote: Can't tell if half the people in this thread are trolling. I can't even tell if Kespa is trolling. These maps are going to be awful for the game we have. And when I say awful I mean we'll be seeing things like mass marines as we did on maps like steps of war. Not because of distances this time, just because it's the most affective with the map layouts... I can't even begin to comprehend all of the exploits these maps are going to lead to... half of them don't even have an accessible 3rd base. Nightmare for protoss... I'm sure other maps have their imbalances for other races as well... I have no other words than this: This looks really, really awful. Because maps that allow you to get a free third and mass bl infestor or colo balls is interesting | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:00 -Kyo- wrote: Can't tell if half the people in this thread are trolling. I can't even tell if Kespa is trolling. These maps are going to be awful for the game we have. And when I say awful I mean we'll be seeing things like mass marines as we did on maps like steps of war. Not because of distances this time, just because it's the most affective with the map layouts... I can't even begin to comprehend all of the exploits these maps are going to lead to... half of them don't even have an accessible 3rd base. Nightmare for protoss... I'm sure other maps have their imbalances for other races as well... I have no other words than this: This looks really, really awful. You prefer NR 20 Infestor broodlord? | ||
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DoomDragoon
United States38 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On November 16 2012 14:39 densha wrote: I can't be the only one to think that the converted BW maps look kind of terrible, right? You are not alone, they look horrible. But hey, if it's BW-related it has to be good. Right? | ||
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Makelius
76 Posts
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:15 Bagi wrote: You are not alone, they look horrible. But hey, if it's BW-related it has to be good. Right? They look horrible. But because they look horrible, they have to be terrible to play on, yeah? | ||
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
Now I definitely will be watching proleage. | ||
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Slackzftw
Germany361 Posts
On November 16 2012 14:57 Slackzftw wrote: I don't think BW Maps will work with SC2... No one remember Crossfire aka Peaks of Baekdu? That BW map did not really worked in sc2. What is Kespa thinking with this stupid move? They should know the game better and see that the these maps cannot work with sc2 gameplay. | ||
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 16 2012 16:45 Slackzftw wrote: No one remember Crossfire aka Peaks of Baekdu? That BW map did not really worked in sc2. What is Kespa thinking with this stupid move? They should know the game better and see that the these maps cannot work with sc2 gameplay. What do they have to lose? Why not give it a try? If the result is bad they will take other maps for next season. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 16:45 Slackzftw wrote: No one remember Crossfire aka Peaks of Baekdu? That BW map did not really worked in sc2. What is Kespa thinking with this stupid move? They should know the game better and see that the these maps cannot work with sc2 gameplay. Crossfire didn't work, but it did bring some variety. That's something that is lacking heavily in sc2 right now. Every map kind of plays out the same, you take your natural, you somewhat safely take your third, you max out, and whoever wins a key engagement dictates the outcome of the game. Games have gotten way longer and in most cases a whole lot more stale (especially ZvP). We need some different map layouts that will stir things up. I don't want to watch games being played on daybreak for another whole fucking year. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On November 16 2012 16:45 Slackzftw wrote: No one remember Crossfire aka Peaks of Baekdu? That BW map did not really worked in sc2. What is Kespa thinking with this stupid move? They should know the game better and see that the these maps cannot work with sc2 gameplay. Depends on what you mean by "sc2 gameplay." The current map pool is balanced and good for macro games, but some matchups have gotten stale to the point where any change seems like a good change, even one that risks going back to the days of cheesy play and all-ins. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:10 DMXD wrote: Oh god Arkanoid is back.... but should be interesting in sc2 gameplay. O_O its totaly broken in sc2 xD | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
How is that an argument? Sure we'll have shorter games but they'll probably all end up one way. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:05 Sabu113 wrote: How is that an argument? Sure we'll have shorter games but they'll probably all end up one way. And how do you think you're in any way qualified to make that prediction based upon seeing exactly 0 games played out by 0 high level pro's in the current patch in the current metagame? | ||
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:05 Sabu113 wrote: How is that an argument? Sure we'll have shorter games but they'll probably all end up one way. And how they will end up? Z or T or P? | ||
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Split.
Switzerland234 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:10 Split. wrote: So how do I say this... have they lost their minds? According to Blizzard SC2 is balanced now. So what wrong could new maps do? | ||
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MHT
Sweden1026 Posts
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
Seriously though, I think this is a power move by kespa. Now pros competing in their league/s, at least for the time being, will be playing completely different maps compared to everyone else. Its going to be really hard for pros in both gsl and proleague to get any practice, study enemy strats etc. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:15 MikeMM wrote: According to Blizzard SC2 is balanced now. So what wrong could new maps do? Agreed. Most people who complain about zerg say that the biggest problem is that you can't really punish a zerg that is rushing towards the ultimate lategame army, whilst terran and protoss have way harder of a time to do the same. Making some different maps and rewarding different strategies might be exactly what is needed to change that dynamic. | ||
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Split.
Switzerland234 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:15 MikeMM wrote: According to Blizzard SC2 is balanced now. So what wrong could new maps do? I'm all for new maps, even unorthodox ones. But maps like Guillotine and Arkanoid? Maybe it's the revolution into better sc2 game balance but for right now I wonder how the kespa players plan to learning sc2 on such maps | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
The map pool is changing far, far slower than it ever did in late BW. As fun as it is to sit and watch players play the same maps for a year until they've been figured out to the point where 70% of the games look the same, I think we can handle the variety. | ||
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:18 Split. wrote: I'm all for new maps, even unorthodox ones. But maps like Guillotine and Arkanoid? Maybe it's the revolution into better sc2 game balance but for right now I wonder how the kespa players plan to learning sc2 on such maps That is why a lot more people will be watching this tournament, to see what kind of games it will produce. Honestly I wouldn't have watched proleage had they played on current maps. | ||
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Spazer
Canada8031 Posts
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
not inventive enough / too familiar: Gaema Gowon, Desert Flower pushing the boundaries in an interesting way: Bifrost, Transistor, Guillotine way too abstract / obviously imbalanced: CalDeum, Arkanoid i'm very excited to see these games and watch the strategies develop! | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:00 -Kyo- wrote: Can't tell if half the people in this thread are trolling. I can't even tell if Kespa is trolling. These maps are going to be awful for the game we have. And when I say awful I mean we'll be seeing things like mass marines as we did on maps like steps of war. Not because of distances this time, just because it's the most affective with the map layouts... I can't even begin to comprehend all of the exploits these maps are going to lead to... half of them don't even have an accessible 3rd base. Nightmare for protoss... I'm sure other maps have their imbalances for other races as well... I have no other words than this: This looks really, really awful. What makes a map good then? Safe expansions? The ability to reach 200/200 without risk? Personally, I think these maps are potaentially very interesting. Will they be imbalanced? Yes? Will they grab the meta-game, stomp on it, tear it to pieces and then throw it in the garbage? Yeah, probably. But I'm not too interested in the NR20 games any more if there's not going to be a lot of engagements following that. Right now, PvZ, PvP and TvZ are largely decided by one engagement because the units are so powerful and so expensive/hard to re-produce. So what if we see mass-marines for a while? At least it'd be refreshing. Tl;dr "balance" and "good maps" are both subjective. With the current state of the meta-game, these are imbalanced. But why do we(or they, rather) have to keep the current meta? | ||
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
So new KESPA maps can do absoulutely no harm to competitiveness and balance of game. And the main thing is that it will be so much fun to watch games on new maps. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:44 Zealously wrote: What makes a map good then? Safe expansions? The ability to reach 200/200 without risk? Personally, I think these maps are potaentially very interesting. Will they be imbalanced? Yes? Will they grab the meta-game, stomp on it, tear it to pieces and then throw it in the garbage? Yeah, probably. But I'm not too interested in the NR20 games any more if there's not going to be a lot of engagements following that. Right now, PvZ, PvP and TvZ are largely decided by one engagement because the units are so powerful and so expensive/hard to re-produce. So what if we see mass-marines for a while? At least it'd be refreshing. Tl;dr "balance" and "good maps" are both subjective. With the current state of the meta-game, these are imbalanced. But why do we(or they, rather) have to keep the current meta? If you take a look at the recommended games from GSL live report threads the last months it's not uncommon to see 11/11 or nydus cheeses very highly recommended. People are tired of watching NR20 bludlud impestor turtles, and will welcome any variation. How people can be against this at this point i just dunno :/ | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote: If you take a look at the recommended games from GSL live report threads the last months it's not uncommon to see 11/11 or nydus cheeses very highly recommended. People are tired of watching NR20 bludlud impestor turtles, and will welcome any variation. How people can be against this at this point i just dunno :/ Exactly! And at this point, people are starting to press the "Do not recommend"-button on default if there was an Infestor in the game, let alone 20 Infestors with Brood Lords. I'm not saying I don't like macro games - they have a lot of potential (see jjakji vs. Leenock, Taeja vs. Rain, DRG vs. MMA and so on), but it doesn't all have to be macro safely on 3+ bases. Anyone saying otherwise is... I don't know, not someone I agree with. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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Severus_
759 Posts
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
Those arena-like desert maps were already ugly as fuck in BW, so why bring them back? | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
Cant wait to see how these plays out in the new PL!! | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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vgijamven
Sweden95 Posts
Maybe it's because of the small images, but I fail to see any watchtowers! I hope this is true | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 16 2012 19:07 Daswollvieh wrote: GSL still setting the global standard Those arena-like desert maps were already ugly as fuck in BW, so why bring them back? I loved the arena style desert maps <3 | ||
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NKB
United Kingdom608 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
New maps are worth a try. The way the game is currently played doesn't really garner my love, so... shake it up! | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 19:19 covetousrat wrote: Cool maps. If only Blizzard listen to us and bring tournament maps to ladder. Sigh I really think that the current way of doing ladder map pools is just terrible and needs to be changed for hots. Like a "map of the week" arcade section or something where people can vote for maps and in the week of the ladder lock people can vote for what map needs to be removed from the pool and what map needs to be added. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
I expect some kingly games on these.  | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Bifrost should be funny, it's kind of the polar opposite of today's macro maps, I expect some raging... | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
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DiMano
Korea (South)2066 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
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flakmonkey
Australia254 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:05 Sabu113 wrote: How is that an argument? Sure we'll have shorter games but they'll probably all end up one way. Yeah =/ youre right, things arent looking too bright for sc if long game is nr 20 broodlord and short game is all in. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On November 16 2012 14:29 IPA wrote: Don't worry, we won't be able to play them on ladder. Makes me sad. I miss the days of iccup. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 21:10 Too_MuchZerg wrote: But how long season will be and will it be WoL or HotS (assuming proleague starts late)? Or will there be switch middle of it? Good point actually, the last one was 4 months exactly in length, so with HOTS around the block they better hurry up :p | ||
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Koesader
Netherlands424 Posts
On November 16 2012 21:14 Fragile51 wrote: Good point actually, the last one was 4 months exactly in length, so with HOTS around the block they better hurry up :p These maps seem better fit for HotS imo, since WoL has some racial map constraints (*cough*protoss*cough*) | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:25 StarStruck wrote: I find the BW maps that they picked to be interesting. Of those maps Bifrost is the only one I really like. Precisely, which leads me to why? It's a different game, what would be imba in BW is not necessarily imba in SC2 due to the differences in races. As sad as it is to say there is no guarantee that if Fighting Spirit were ported over it would be balanced. The kespa map makers have so many good old maps to choose from, and they'll make so many new ones.. it's going to be nice. | ||
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EFF_TotaL
United States16 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
BTW Arkanoid looks like the ultimate TvZ map. 3CC every game and the zerg can't do shit about it :D | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On November 16 2012 21:50 JustPassingBy wrote: question: wasn't it common consensus that snow maps are bad because they hurt your eyes if you practise on them extensively? Doubt that would be a problem today when screens are so good and sc2 is played in 1080p. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:02 Gosi wrote: Doubt that would be a problem today when screens are so good and sc2 is played in 1080p. Oh it is a problem, trust me. I played a game on that snow map from HOTS once as a custom map in WoL, just to see how it was like. It was like my eyes were on fire, and i use f.lux so it wasn't even that bright at the time. I can imagine that pro-gamers that play for multiple hours a day might have some bad eye strain when playing maps like that. I get eye strain from just playing 3-4 ladder games... | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I really hope they work out well in terms of balance. I hope they do, in that case we will finally get some new maps aside from the maps gsl introduces. | ||
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
although... im not sure how well these will translate to sc2. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:27 Pucca wrote: Where can you even watch Pro League? As of right now, nowhere - the season hasn't started yet. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:27 Pucca wrote: Where can you even watch Pro League? They broadcast on the youtube channel EsportsTV in korean, has been working really well for me in the past. Dunno if that's going to be the case now though..I really hope so, their twitch stream has been absolutely terrible for me. | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:34 AxionSteel wrote: Cool, these maps don't look like NR20 infestor/broodlord snorefests like the terrible maps the GSL people make. Maybe there'll be some kind of action. Hey, GSL is slowly but surely moving away from those maps :p Kind of unfair to criticize GSL when they are the only ones who actively push for new map pools. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:41 n0ise wrote: um, zergs can't place ovies to see all four extractors and every attack path, wtf? indeed, somewhere I can hear IdrA say "This is a fucking joke" | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:36 Fragile51 wrote: Hey, GSL is slowly but surely moving away from those maps :p Kind of unfair to criticize GSL when they are the only ones who actively push for new map pools. If they're the 'only ones who actively push for new map pools', I wonder what OSL could be considered if new map pools persist, which no doubt they would considering they had done so in BW. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
It also appears on Crux website for a while but got deleted. According to his sign, LS has worked for KeSPA and apparently, the map is ordered to be removed from TL and Crux ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RaJQZl.jpg) | ||
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poorcloud
Singapore2748 Posts
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On November 16 2012 22:36 Fragile51 wrote: Hey, GSL is slowly but surely moving away from those maps :p Kind of unfair to criticize GSL when they are the only ones who actively push for new map pools. Well they were forced to remove atlantis spaceship and metropolis which was ok.. But what've they introduced since? Belshir vestige? looks like another big zerg map. Abyssal city is big and heavily favours zerg against terran so far. Whirlwind is awesome in tvt but has problems in other matchups. They still seem to have a "bigger is better" approach from what i've seen. | ||
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Chronos.
United States805 Posts
I just love that they're so different from standard SC2 maps, I'd absolutely love it if they had tournaments with only maps like these. | ||
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Shakty
25 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
Kespa thinks zerg needs a buff. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
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scoww
595 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
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MyFirstProbe
Netherlands294 Posts
On November 17 2012 01:40 ACrow wrote: Uhm, if they really go with that Cladeum map, I expect a 70%+ win rate for Zergs on that map. I mean it's cute that everybody is praising Kespa for being oh so innovative, and I even agree we could use something to shake up the meta game, but this doesn't look like a step in the right direction. I hope to be wrong... But it might play out in a way nobody expects | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 17 2012 01:41 MyFirstProbe wrote: But it might play out in a way nobody expects I'll be pleasantly surprised Let's hope for the best I guess! | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
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mGGNoRe
Australia124 Posts
All the custom maps made be the community and the major organisations have been the same old style of high ground main, narrow/fairly open natural then easily taken third (Metropolis, Antiga, Cloud etc.). Now we're getting some different maps that can really be interesting in terms of how it changes the metagame and will push it into new directions. Massive props to kespa for having the balls to change things up. I am really looking forward to seeing how the BW maps play out. | ||
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Mr. Black
United States470 Posts
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EliteSK
Korea (South)251 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On November 16 2012 23:01 Arceus wrote: KeSPA being KeSPA... well, hopefully they at least paid him for it.Caldeum is made by Crux_LS http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364336¤tpage=All It also appears on Crux website for a while but got deleted. According to his sign, LS has worked for KeSPA and apparently, the map is ordered to be removed from TL and Crux | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 16 2012 23:48 AxionSteel wrote: Well they were forced to remove atlantis spaceship and metropolis which was ok.. But what've they introduced since? Belshir vestige? looks like another big zerg map. Abyssal city is big and heavily favours zerg against terran so far. Whirlwind is awesome in tvt but has problems in other matchups. They still seem to have a "bigger is better" approach from what i've seen. Actually whirlwind has been awesome for tvz as well. It's produced some awesome games and it's not heavily zerg favored either as it makes going that bl/corr/infestor ball not viable. Big maps like whirlwind (at least vs terran) make those kind of armies not viable because terran can just go for a base trade if they have to and the zerg will not be able to defend vs it if that is what happens. Big maps make ultra/ling/bane/infestor a lot better and more entertaining to watch to. I'll never understand why terrans hate big maps like whirlwind in tvz when it's not bad for terran players at all except for tvp, but that's because of warp in and what ^_^. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:24 TimENT wrote: I can't wait to see Kespa players play on these maps! Gonna be so awesome to see intense practice on a completely different map pool and metagame. It won't just be kespa players if they're in the OSL. Also a mixed teamleague is also possible. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:36 Qikz wrote: It won't just be kespa players if they're in the OSL. Also a mixed teamleague is also possible. I want to see what the Kespa practice regime will be able to do. | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:15 memcpy wrote: I feel like increasing the number of maps that players are required to play will decrease the overall quality of games. Less time to prepare map specific builds or strategies and less time to practice against others. Aside from that, the maps do look diverse and interesting. I just hope there won't be too many exploits or racial imbalances. In the short term it would result in lower quality games, but it has the potential of increasing overall quality in the long term by requiring players to work harder (more maps to study) to achieve good results. However by having Kespa players play in maps that GSL players don't play it would handicap Kespa players in GSL tournaments. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:44 Dionyseus wrote: In the short term it would result in lower quality games, but it has the potential of increasing overall quality in the long term by requiring players to work harder (more maps to study) to achieve good results. However by having Kespa players play in maps that GSL players don't play it would handicap Kespa players in GSL tournaments. would go the other way too, GSL players in the OSL/PL would do worse than otherwise haha | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
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Levernz
Canada50 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:49 Levernz wrote: About time, stop whining BW maps are great. Different games are different. Not saying that they cannot be great, rather that no one can know. That's why some people, me included, are voicing concerns, because some of the maps have attributes that according to conventional wisdom would be bad, especially for Protoss. Only because they were great for BW doesn't automatically make them great for SC2. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:45 opterown wrote: would go the other way too, GSL players in the OSL/PL would do worse than otherwise haha Good point. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:54 ACrow wrote: Different games are different. Not saying that they cannot be great, rather that no one can know. That's why some people, me included, are voicing concerns, because some of the maps have attributes that according to conventional wisdom would be bad, especially for Protoss. Only because they were great for BW doesn't automatically make them great for SC2. Let the pros decide what's best. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:12 bduddy wrote: KeSPA being KeSPA... well, hopefully they at least paid him for it. Paid or not, it's the map maker's choice to go along with KeSPA. I'd prefer of thinking about it that way instead of being a douche about it. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:15 memcpy wrote: I feel like increasing the number of maps that players are required to play will decrease the overall quality of games. Less time to prepare map specific builds or strategies and less time to practice against others. You say that, yet we have seen the same maps in GSL for many seasons. | ||
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
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Golbat
United States499 Posts
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Mawi
Sweden4365 Posts
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NotoriousBig
Germany301 Posts
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Gaema Gowon port looks better than its bw counterpart. Bifrost is an amazing concept map but very cheesy. Guillotine is an oldschool macro map (ie not that macro) that I think is remembered for two games today. The layout is pretty strange. Arkanoid is another concept map that was imba but had a few excellent games. So it's pretty clear that they are not trying to get balanced map through bw ideas, but looking for old concepts that might work in sc2. Not at all the bw superiority complex you guys fear. I think this is exactly what sc2 map making needs, less balance, more original maps. Edit @tidus of course, best game ever  | ||
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akarin
Ireland42 Posts
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
On November 17 2012 06:55 Gamegene wrote: i hope they remake chupung ryeung t_t. this one? http://i.imgur.com/EkQVj.jpg :D | ||
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a9arnn
United States1537 Posts
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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sinigang
360 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:54 ACrow wrote: Different games are different. Not saying that they cannot be great, rather that no one can know. That's why some people, me included, are voicing concerns, because some of the maps have attributes that according to conventional wisdom would be bad, especially for Protoss. Only because they were great for BW doesn't automatically make them great for SC2. Just reserve judgement and wait and see how the pros figure them out. Unless you're pro. | ||
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CloudMage
Canada221 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On November 17 2012 05:27 blade55555 wrote: Actually whirlwind has been awesome for tvz as well. It's produced some awesome games and it's not heavily zerg favored either as it makes going that bl/corr/infestor ball not viable. Big maps like whirlwind (at least vs terran) make those kind of armies not viable because terran can just go for a base trade if they have to and the zerg will not be able to defend vs it if that is what happens. Big maps make ultra/ling/bane/infestor a lot better and more entertaining to watch to. I'll never understand why terrans hate big maps like whirlwind in tvz when it's not bad for terran players at all except for tvp, but that's because of warp in and what ^_^. I guess 43% is a very good terran map these days vs Zerg | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On November 17 2012 07:11 Titusmaster6 wrote: When I see Arkanoid there is only one game that comes to mind. Gawd why iris vs savior? | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:07 Plexa wrote: Quit honestly the maps coming out of our own map section are more innovative and playable than these =/ This. Thanks Plexa. ^^ But I am super excited for some new crazytown maps getting serious play! For the game's sake I hope this spurs western tournaments to use new maps more often. On November 16 2012 11:50 Adreme wrote: While that is certainly true anything tried to at least shake up meta game and try some different style maps is certainly a step in right direction. While most of those maps look completely unplayable at least it shows a willingness to experiment that a lot of tournaments are lacking at the moment. Also this. ^^ | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 17 2012 12:38 sinigang wrote: Just reserve judgement and wait and see how the pros figure them out. Unless you're pro. This. ^^ <Anything non-cynical> And this. ^^ | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
SC2 stagnated so much maybe we can see some evolution after all with these maps! To a brave new worlds and to OGN/Kespa for pushing inovation into map making since like 2002! | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On November 17 2012 12:42 CloudMage wrote: wow this is pretty cool, hope the balance is ok but sc2 is so much different than BW i dont think it will lol Give it the benefit of the doubt. And maybe blizzard can get a different way of looking at their game with these new maps and if they do they might be able to see that they can balance the game in a different way in a way that doesn't make playstyles so restrictive in SC2. | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
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Incanus
Canada695 Posts
Edit: I feel the tighter chokes in BW map designs will be too strong for protoss. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On November 17 2012 19:13 Incanus wrote: This is sweet! Also, somehow I want to see destination work for SC2. Edit: I feel the tighter chokes in BW map designs will be too strong for protoss. Oh yes, I´d love me some small, yet defendable maps. More variety please. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
they look fantastic though, would be great to get more mixed maps in. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Luisa_2
Germany200 Posts
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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
We do need more variety in sc2 maps. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 17 2012 12:38 sinigang wrote: Just reserve judgement and wait and see how the pros figure them out. Unless you're pro. I'm not a pro, and I will reserve judgement, but why not discuss these maps and speculate how they might play out? That's what a forum is for. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
I'm loving it !! Hope it will be balanced for SC2 though. | ||
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Gnumlab
3 Posts
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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Koesader
Netherlands424 Posts
On November 17 2012 20:52 D4V3Z02 wrote: Finally amove mech dies yeeah. Amove BL/Infestor not unfortunately | ||
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MrJoKer
France232 Posts
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
On November 19 2012 10:28 lorestarcraft wrote: These maps all look terrible. Seriously, learn the SC2 meta, then make maps. jep this man speaks the truth | ||
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mtn
729 Posts
These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta. | ||
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fuzzylogic44
Canada2633 Posts
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
On November 19 2012 10:34 mtn wrote: These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta. its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar. sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted. those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something. Edit: The only acceptable map here is Caldeum which is made by jacky i think. he is a know and knowledgeable mapmaker so thats ok. not sure who made the others. One more thing on Broodwar Ports: the scaling in each game is completly different so you cannot just copy a broodwar map 1:1 into sc2 with the same proportions like here. Guillotine, Arkanoid, Transistor, Bifrost and Gaema Gowon will all fail hardcore. and i know what im talking about btw, i made made several broodwarports, propably the best you can find. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On November 19 2012 10:34 mtn wrote: These maps are introduced to change this stale and boring meta. This is true. Different maps that make players do different things will mean zvp is interesting again. It's exactly what we needed all along. Every map right now is basically the exact same thing. Easy natural, close third, ramp into main, no cliffs, open center etc.. Anything that makes games look different is good imo, even if it's a little imbalanced. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:05 Terranlover wrote: its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar. sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted. those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something. They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design... It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do. SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!" That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan. | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:07 hitpoint wrote: This is true. Different maps that make players do different things will mean zvp is interesting again. It's exactly what we needed all along. Every map right now is basically the exact same thing. Easy natural, close third, ramp into main, no cliffs, open center etc.. Anything that makes games look different is good imo, even if it's a little imbalanced. That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues. | ||
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:12 Qwyn wrote: They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design... It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do. SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!" That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan. doesnt work with sc2 unit design | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
AKA: Fantasy vs. JangBi | ||
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JeffGoldblum
Cook Islands191 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:05 Terranlover wrote: its just stupid too thing that any new mapmaker could make better maps then any of the established TL mapmakers. its just unfair how easy they get some kind of fame or recognition just because they did a good job in broodwar. sc2 gameplay is completly different and you have to understand what works and what doesnt or your maps will be crap. i took me like 10 sec too see that forcefields will be absolutly imbalance on most of those maps. they look like maps we did back in beta 2 years ago. we always try to improve and add new ideas too our maps to make them more interessting but still playable. unfortunatly that is a long process because the community as a whole has to feel somthing needs to change, then we can start working on new stuff or otherwise it would not be accepted. those maps we got here are 10 steps ahead of what we got now. it will not work and it should not work like that. And fuck korean monopoly on mapmaking, they all act like we (TL mapcom) dont exist or something. Edit: The only acceptable map here is Caldeum which is made by jacky i think. he is a know and knowledgeable mapmaker so thats ok. not sure who made the others. One more thing on Broodwar Ports: the scaling in each game is completly different so you cannot just copy a broodwar map 1:1 into sc2 with the same proportions like here. Guillotine, Arkanoid, Transistor, Bifrost and Gaema Gowon will all fail hardcore. and i know what im talking about btw, i made made several broodwarports, propably the best you can find. New mapmakers? These are people that have made maps with the purpose of competitive play for longer than any of the Crux and ESV map makers. But if you want to have the same fucking Daybreak derivative maps and 4p maps, but actually it's bad 3p because people don't want to change how they play from map to map so one spawn config is disabled. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:14 lost_artz wrote: That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues. I'm fine with imbalanced maps in tournaments as long as they are imbalanced equally, if you know what I mean. Equal terran favored maps vs zerg favored maps. We'll see a lot of new builds and cheeses. You know what my favorite map was after release? Desert Oasis. Pros hated it because it was different, and it always got vetoed. But the few times we did see it, it made for some of the most entertaining and epic games that I can remember, because people had to play different. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
That's ridiculous. "Doesn't work?" What the hell does that mean? It may not work like it does now but it sure as hell can work. That's the point...that players are forced to ADAPT to the map. In SCII's lifetime there has been NONE of that. AND IT CAN BE DONE. It SHOULD be done. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
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isaachukfan
Canada785 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 개마고원/Gaema Gowon I'm curious to know how a natural base is going to be held on this map. Even Brood War maps eventually shifted over to having a more defendable natural, and they didn't have to worry about things such as warp gate mechanic. Aside from that, this would probably be my third favourite out of the group. On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 비프로스트/Bifrost Lack of ramp to the main means we're likely to see a lot of Tal'Darim Altar-style shenanigans in PvP. I'm not able to do measurements (don't have the map ) but it looks like it might be possible to even warp right into the main over the high ground barrier. Usually the main is a level higher and the defender can deny pylons from being put up. Couple that with PvP issues and my initial thought is that this map is just broken. Even the HotS change for pylons to be unable to warp into high ground fails to come into play here for balancing things.Note how all the issues revolve around new mechanics that simply weren't present when the original Brood War map was made. On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 기요틴/Guillotine This has to be a bad joke. I can swallow every other map to a degree, but not this one. The terrain has even been adjusted in a way that makes no sense. Where before the terrain flowed into additional bases, now we have random dead-ends. What are people going to do about forcefields on this map, as well? On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 알카노이드/Arkanoid This one's just too weird for me to comment on. I never saw any games on the original BW map, and I have no idea what will end up becoming too strong. Will it be forcefield, where the map is very choked even after taking out the infinite rocks? Or perhaps drops, which will have the ability to come out super fast due to lack of any ground pressure in the early game (can you say boring)? Or perhaps we'll just see three-base turtle fests with super greedy teching, in which case we never see a Terran win on this map? On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 칼데움/CalDeum This would be my favourite map of the bunch. It's got some crazy stuff going on (mineral walls, neutral assimilators blocks, etc. for those who want to see something "new" and "unique" to "shake up the metagame"), while having map proportions that better fit StarCraft 2 and the abilities/mechanics it has that simply weren't present in Brood War. On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 트랜지스터/Transistor I have one question: where do I put my production? On November 16 2012 06:08 opterown wrote: 데저트 플라워/Desert Flower Second favourite of the bunch. I don't think the proportions are as good as on CalDeum, but I think the overall concept is fairly interesting. The rich mineral bases are kind of "winner's bases", but the map layout is done in such a way that it might actually be possible to successfully harass them even when the opponent has map control. In particular: a. The entrances into the centre are single-width ramps, meaning a big army can't just go in there and go unpunished for it b. Even if a large army is sitting in the centre, that leaves the high ground ledges open for harassment on the mineral lines c. If they want to cover all their bases and have forces on both the low and high ground, then they're effectively splitting up their army into more manageable chunks, allowing for potential comebacks -- they can't easily regroup their army together on a whim, due to the terrain. I find that quite intriguing, and so long as the map itself plays out well I'd like to see how that interaction really unfolds in high level games. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:12 Qwyn wrote: They came from a different background where MAPS influenced gameplay...instead of letting ONLY GAMEPLAY dictate map design... It's not just about understanding what works. There were maps that were extraordinarily race favored ON PURPOSE...the power of a map is the ability to change what players can or cannot do. SCII community is in this pussy state where they think "Oh, you can't move away from the established map design because then it would break the game! It would bring CHANGE!" That's exactly what they're doing. That and the name value. They are incorporating these maps to try and pull over some of the BW fanbase. And KeSPA especially DICTATED how the game was played through maps, because they didn't have a game developer there to constantly patch and lead the playerbase to bitch and moan. I agree. I remember Artosis talking about how Protoss was having a hard time against a certain race or something and they actually introduced a few maps that were intentionally Protoss favored in BW. It works better in Proleague or team leagues (in general) than individual leagues though (in team league, map imbalance isn't too bad since both teams know in advance which maps will be played and know which players they should send). I personally wouldn't mind more crazy maps like Monty Hall in SC2... or maps where there are neutral buildings where you can hire mercs (or certain units that any race can use), AKA Warcraft III in... SPACE! Right now, watching SC2 is getting a bit stale at times (unless you're follow one or two players you really like in a certain tourny). Plus, with the so called tournament over saturation, there is room for variety and crazy stuff IMO. That's why I wouldn't mind crazy maps. Best place to test it is team leagues where it wouldn't be as imbalanced because teams will know in advance and can pick which maps and players/races to send out on specific maps. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:18 GinDo wrote: I liked how in BW Kespa maps, some maps were clearly in favor of a race. This was balanced by introducing other imbalanced maps. Which in turn created nail biting situations were a player would win on an unfavored map. AKA: Fantasy vs. JangBi Only if it was a slight issue. Some maps were just absolute graveyards and crippled races in tournaments. Tears of the Moon wasn't all that great, for instance. Though sometimes map imbalance forced new strategies from impacted races that worked around the map issues and created really exciting games (mech, carriers vs scouts, and fantasy vs stork on Plasma). | ||
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Spazer
Canada8031 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:14 lost_artz wrote: That's great and all but if you want to experiment with stuff like that don't do it in a tournament setting. Tournaments are meant to be as balanced as possible to ensure a fair chance for all the players and when you are experimenting with completely new maps you will have issues. In league play, this matters less. In the event that one race is favored over the others, the team coaches will obviously resort to sending out a player of that race. It also opens up the possibility for specialized snipe builds and such, since most players would expect to play (and thus, practice for) a mirror matchup on imbalanced maps. Of course, if the OSL were to use all of these maps without prior results, it'd be a completely different matter. There's also a reason why they're giving teams these maps far in advance of the games. If the teams report that the map is completely broken and cannot be salvaged, then it won't be used. On November 19 2012 13:40 Dfgj wrote: Only if it was a slight issue. Some maps were just absolute graveyards and crippled races in tournaments. Tears of the Moon wasn't all that great, for instance. Though sometimes map imbalance forced new strategies from impacted races that worked around the map issues and created really exciting games (mech, carriers vs scouts, and fantasy vs stork on Plasma). Central Plains was ridiculously protoss favored, but some of the most memorable (for me, at least) PvP matches took place on that map. It was awesome seeing things like cannon/reaver/shield battery contains and games that lasted long enough for arbiters to be fielded. | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On November 17 2012 07:22 a9arnn wrote: It's sad we'll never see an outsider or monty hall in SC2, those were so sick Or any island map or semi-island map (Plasma is pretty cool!) | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
It's cool they are trying new things out, I'm all for tournaments picking up new maps, but man, these maps blow and would be so god damn awful in sc2. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On November 19 2012 11:27 JeffGoldblum wrote: New mapmakers? These are people that have made maps with the purpose of competitive play for longer than any of the Crux and ESV map makers. But if you want to have the same fucking Daybreak derivative maps and 4p maps, but actually it's bad 3p because people don't want to change how they play from map to map so one spawn config is disabled. They have not made SC2 maps longer. BW mapping does not always transfer over well. Current mappers want innovation, tournaments and players won't use it. Also ESV never releases maps with blocked spawns. Don't blame us. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 19 2012 17:19 Diamond wrote: They have not made SC2 maps longer. BW mapping does not always transfer over well. Current mappers want innovation, tournaments and players won't use it. Also ESV never releases maps with blocked spawns. Don't blame us. I don't think it's fair that current mapmakers get blamed for this either. The sc2 custom map section of TL.net is filled with wacky, innovative maps that never get any attention because tournaments only pick maps the players want, and players want maps that they already know and practice on. I get that tournaments are trying to cater to the players to make it as good of a tournament environment as possible but sooner or later viewer numbers are going to suffer because of it. Daybreak was a great map, and has been the #1 used and praised tournament map for almost a year. Let it die already, and allow for new maps to take that title. | ||
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JuiceBoxHero
117 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 19 2012 15:56 SidianTheBard wrote: I think most of you fail to realize what happens when a third base isn't somewhat easy to take. Yes, 1 or 2 base all-ins every game, which is basically what we saw for the first year of WoL. If Protoss can't get a safe 3rd, their only option is either 2 base all-in, or grab a very late 3rd. If you grab a late 3rd, you're behind because the zerg is still going to get his 3rd by the 6-7 minute mark. If the 3rd is too difficult, not only do we see 2 base all-ins constantly from protoss, but zerg also complain because they now can't hold their 3rds because they are too far away from their other bases. Terran probably have the best option but that's only because marines, tanks & pforts are good enough to hold bases fairly easily. It's cool they are trying new things out, I'm all for tournaments picking up new maps, but man, these maps blow and would be so god damn awful in sc2. Yes, we do realize we will see 1 or 2 base all-ins every game. But its better than seeing 20 minutes macro games(drone, drone, drone) with only one big final battle. And for those who prefer macro games there are plenty of tournaments with big macro maps(GSL, GSTL, MLG, IPL, Dreamhack and others). Personally I prefer to watch sick micro with limited number of units than 200/200 deathball against deathball. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
no ok sry for trolling but seriously i think that its need change on mappools and ofc some maps will be bad but it will be a progress and at the end we have great maps ... but i would start with python, fighting spirit, even luna but not really gg and bifrost which was even in bw imbalanced^^ | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1977 Posts
the maps were made for bw balance | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 19 2012 17:58 TaShadan wrote: nice but i wonder how it works out with sc2 balance the maps were made for bw balance Even that is a stretch lol, most BW pro maps were imba as hell. But they were imba for different races in different ways so it kinda evened out in the end. | ||
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Burgath
Hungary26 Posts
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On November 19 2012 17:48 MikeMM wrote: Yes, we do realize we will see 1 or 2 base all-ins every game. But its better than seeing 20 minutes macro games(drone, drone, drone) with only one big final battle. And for those who prefer macro games there are plenty of tournaments with big macro maps(GSL, GSTL, MLG, IPL, Dreamhack and others). Personally I prefer to watch sick micro with limited number of units than 200/200 deathball against deathball. See and this is the problem. You basically want maps that say 1 or 2 base all-in or lose. At least with current maps where 3rds are somewhat safe you have the option of going 3 base and macroing for 20 minutes but they also have the option to 1 or 2 base all-in, which you still see plenty of those types of games. How many games do we still see the Immortal/Sentry all-in, even on maps where according to you it "should" be a 20 minute do nothing macro game? Some of these maps have no ramp into the main, did they not learn from Tal'Darim that this basically forces 4gate in PvP? (Which hey, that's not getting fixed in HoTS, so it'll still be 4gates!) Did they not realize if the natural isn't safe enough that it'll just force 1 base all-ins? Remember how much people bitched about 1 base drop play on Lost Temple? Great, let's bring that back! Most people in this thread are just blinded by the fact that a tournament in bringing in new maps, even though all but 1 of them are god awful, viewers are still excited because they are new maps. Hell, I'm kind of happy they are trying it out even though I know they all suck and will produce terrible games just because it's a change of pace that apparently no other tournament (besides GSL's 1 new map a tournament) does. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
Here are some larger pic of the new maps | ||
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Pisko.
United States214 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:26 larse wrote: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=128511&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= Here are some larger pic of the new maps Why is fomos a reported attack site? | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
It has been like that for a while. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
So KESPA maps surely will be no worse than current maps. Will they be better? We will see. But at lest KESPA is tring to do something, kudos to them for that. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=128512&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= Google translate mentions Ace not participating, KeSPA possibly replacing them with a foreign team, and a possible December 8th opening day. However, some confirmation from a real translator would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 20 2012 19:41 eviltomahawk wrote: Speaking of Proleague, there was a rumors article on fomos. http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=128512&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= Google translate mentions Ace not participating, KeSPA possibly replacing them with a foreign team, and a possible December 8th opening day. However, some confirmation from a real translator would be greatly appreciated. Ace disbanded months ago. | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria923 Posts
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
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GTR
51496 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
Edit : On November 20 2012 21:04 GTR wrote: What kind of foreign team has a roster deep enough to stay in Korea for an entire season of Proleague? D: EG ? I would have added CoL but it's unlikely Edit2 : Weirdly enough I can't get on Fomos anymore and someone posted that they were more detailed pics of the maps on the site, can some one post it here ? :O Edit3: If EG or any other team joins proleague does that mean that they have to become a kespa team ? O_O | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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GTR
51496 Posts
s2 vs Mini on Transistor 1hr 30m http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 | ||
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GTR
51496 Posts
Rain vs Trap on Guillotine right now. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
SKT 4-0 STX so far apparently | ||
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regaem
Canada25 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:35 regaem wrote: sorry, i haven't kept up with pro sc since game 7 proleague bisu v flash back in April...is there any news on a new proleague season? Rumor is december 8'th. | ||
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Lysergic
United States355 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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MyFirstProbe
Netherlands294 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:25 GTR wrote: Bisu vs Classic on Desert Flower (fast forward to 1hr 2m in) s2 vs Mini on Transistor 1hr 30m http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 Thank you for the link! The second game on Transistor strengthens my suspicions that ZvP will have a very very high win percentage of Z. It's 2 base or die for the P with that layout. Even the nat will be quite hard to hold with that dual ramp, might even lead to a lot of 1 base play by P, I'm afraid. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=50409&iskin=esports ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/38ofD.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nb6Vo.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mmilt.jpg) The maps and results are: Bifrost, sacsri (Z) vs dear (P) 1-0 Ohana, BeSt (P) vs 박건수 (Z) 1-0 Desert Flower, Bisu (P) vs Classic (T) 1-0 Transistor, S2 (Z) vs mini (P) 1-0 Guillotine, Rain (P) vs Trap (P) 0-1 Looks like except Ohana, all maps are the new BW maps. I have no idea why Rain has to play ACE match when SKT is already 4-0. Maybe the format is changed. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On the last pic I see immortal, roach speed and infestor energy half way research. Looks like a macro game ! I would love to see the VODs Edit : just to be clear, this was a showmatch not the start of the PL 2 so they didn't use the same format as PL. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
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PandaTank
South Africa255 Posts
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mtn
729 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:37 PandaTank wrote: Finally we will get some new meta-game. This game as been stale\boring as fuck for the last 6+ months Totally agree... Now I have a reason to watch Proleague again :D | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:35 bgx wrote: Bisu vs Classic was a very good play by Bisu, at least from what i got. He actually utilized micro and multitasking in sc2. Bisu won a match in SC2? My mind is so blown right now. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:42 eviltomahawk wrote: Bisu won a match in SC2? My mind is so blown right now. Did he mass sentrys? | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:27 algue wrote: Rain played because it was 5 match no matter what happened. On the last pic I see immortal, roach speed and infestor energy half way research. Looks like a macro game ! I would love to see the VODs Edit : just to be clear, this was a showmatch not the start of the PL 2 so they didn't use the same format as PL. Yeah, but the SPL new season is said to start on Dec 8. It shows that on the OGN schedule. So it's very soon. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qxOFH.jpg) | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
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DiMano
Korea (South)2066 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 Click and watch all games except 1st set. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:51 DiMano wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 Click and watch all games except 1st set. This is great. Thx! But why did a LoL channel broadcaster sc2 content? | ||
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SeraKuDA
Canada343 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:37 PandaTank wrote: Finally we will get some new meta-game. This game as been stale\boring as fuck for the last 6+ months Just wait until KeSPA Protoss players start utilizing 4gate on Guillotine. D: Desert Flower looks pretty much like I was expecting it to. Still my second favourite of the maps that were posted, with CalDeum being my favourite. If they improve the proportions of Desert Flower a bit, I think it'd be a very, very good map. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:34 iamcaustic wrote: Just wait until KeSPA Protoss players start utilizing 4gate on Guillotine. D: Desert Flower looks pretty much like I was expecting it to. Still my second favourite of the maps that were posted, with CalDeum being my favourite. If they improve the proportions of Desert Flower a bit, I think it'd be a very, very good map. Well, 4gate on Gullotine already happened in the SKT vs STX showmatch | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:34 iamcaustic wrote: Just wait until KeSPA Protoss players start utilizing 4gate on Guillotine. D: Desert Flower looks pretty much like I was expecting it to. Still my second favourite of the maps that were posted, with CalDeum being my favourite. If they improve the proportions of Desert Flower a bit, I think it'd be a very, very good map. Desert Flower is literally just another boring map like all the other maps in SC2 atm... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:11 TimENT wrote: Desert Flower is literally just another boring map like all the other maps in SC2 atm... It really isn't. Notice how much harder (a great thing) it is to get a third? It requires you to actually HAVE AN ARMY to defend your third, which is a massive problem on SC2 maps are right now. | ||
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xi Tempest x
Scotland340 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
Lol'd @ 1:37:00 !! Edit : On November 25 2012 06:19 xi Tempest x wrote: These maps have been made in SC2 for A LONG time. most of them have been in custom games since season 1 Yeah but beeing made doesn't mean you are used, also now that they are between kespa's hands we can expect that they are gonna adapt to competitive play. On November 25 2012 06:11 TimENT wrote: Desert Flower is literally just another boring map like all the other maps in SC2 atm... The third isn't common and the center needs more than 1 game to be figured out, I think there is a lot of possibilities ( and abuse?) Most of those maps are so new, a lot of stuff will have to be figured out since it's new (obviously --') and it wont work like BW | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Ogna
United States106 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:11 TimENT wrote: Desert Flower is literally just another boring map like all the other maps in SC2 atm... It's massively different from all the other maps in sc2. Here are some big differences: 1, third is very far away and difficult to take 2, third has narrow choke to you but bigger choke to your enemy 3, natural has highground surrounded. 4, the center has two high-yield expansions in the high ground with two very very small chokes. I would image PvZ will be very hard. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Ps. I know many have asked already, but I am so eager to lay my hands on them! | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:54 eviltomahawk wrote: Well, 4gate on Gullotine already happened in the SKT vs STX showmatch Um, no. SKT did a defensive, slower 4 gate with sentries, while STX did a blink build. Neither did the 4gate all-in. Either way, the game was silly and ended with 1-base vs. 1-base, which was basically as expected. | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
On November 25 2012 08:29 aZealot wrote: Wow, the Bisu v Classic (?) looked a lot of fun. I liked Bisu's consistent use of Blink Stalkers to set up flanks. Where can I watch this match??? | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:32 SMMN wrote: no xel naga towers will be pretty bad for any matchup I disagree, I think no Xel naga will make for better match ups. in Sc2 it's just WAY to easy to know everything your opponent is doing. With no Xel naga giving vision, players will have to move their armies more and be more careful/aware of their positioning. IMO I see have no Xel Naga as potentially being a great thing, of course this is all in theory. Have to really see how it plays out with the pro's playing game after game on these kinds of maps. I think any change that can potentially change up the very, very stagnate meta game right now is a good change. Yes these maps could turn out to be horrible and imba, but we desperately need an injection of new maps in tournaments. This same old map pool is getting extremely boring to watch. This is one of the things I miss most in BW was the ever evolving map pools. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:32 SMMN wrote: no xel naga towers will be pretty bad for any matchup no xel naga towers will be pretty good for any matchup. With towers, the game tends to be still with very few flanks, run overs, and tricks. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:40 archonOOid wrote: These maps must be able to function with the current WoL meta game and with the meta game in HotS. Surely HotS will be featued in Pro league as it will last for so long next year and the fact that HotS is shipped in march. I don't think it's possible to maintain map balance for both games. Sure they will change if it doesn't feel right, they do this all the time, usually every round. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
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johnny123
521 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:40 archonOOid wrote: These maps must be able to function with the current WoL meta game and with the meta game in HotS. Surely HotS will be featued in Pro league as it will last for so long next year and the fact that HotS is shipped in march. I don't think it's possible to maintain map balance for both games. fuck the WOL meta game. Thats why i love the idea of changing the maps. Force another new metagame please. This current one is too boring. Even sc2 meta-game at the first 1/2 when it was now released is much better than the current 3 bases before taking an engagement happened. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I think map design needs to be taken is a radical direction, doing away with the 3 base style. I also think map makers need to take all “feed back” from the community and professionals with a grain of salt, or outright ignore it. People will be very reluctant to give up the three bases they rely on to win games. Professional player might need to be outright ignored for that reason. People like Apollo or Artosis, who have a good knowledge of the game and what makes it good to watch, are far better for feedback on what makes a map good. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:13 Aunvilgod wrote: Thats gonna fuck the metagame up. Players will need to adapt. WHY DO YOU COMPLAIN | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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-niL
Canada1131 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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yokohama
United States1116 Posts
On November 16 2012 06:20 zerious wrote: omggg Gaema Gowon and BiFrost, so fucking old school Yeah! These are my 2 favourite maps ever! I'm so excited to see if BiFrost can show balanced games for SC2. So many good memories playing these maps. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 28 2012 07:26 GumBa wrote: Cant wait to see some games on the new maps December 8th I cant wait! :D SKT and STX have played 3 games on the new maps recently VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
On November 28 2012 07:58 larse wrote: SKT and STX have played 3 games on the new maps recently VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 Can you be a little more specific? I can't find them. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:13 Qikz wrote: It really isn't. Notice how much harder (a great thing) it is to get a third? It requires you to actually HAVE AN ARMY to defend your third, which is a massive problem on SC2 maps are right now. zergs in general can still take the third though, with a minimal investment in lings + speed or roaches that they already do | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:05 Bareleon wrote: Can you be a little more specific? I can't find them. The new maps are played in the second half of the vod. | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:35 eviltomahawk wrote: The new maps are played in the second half of the vod. TY! And who are the players? | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:43 Necro)Phagist( wrote: I disagree, I think no Xel naga will make for better match ups. in Sc2 it's just WAY to easy to know everything your opponent is doing. With no Xel naga giving vision, players will have to move their armies more and be more careful/aware of their positioning. IMO I see have no Xel Naga as potentially being a great thing, of course this is all in theory. Have to really see how it plays out with the pro's playing game after game on these kinds of maps. I think any change that can potentially change up the very, very stagnate meta game right now is a good change. Yes these maps could turn out to be horrible and imba, but we desperately need an injection of new maps in tournaments. This same old map pool is getting extremely boring to watch. This is one of the things I miss most in BW was the ever evolving map pools. It's both good and bad. Worth a shot at trying IMO | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:05 Bareleon wrote: Can you be a little more specific? I can't find them. You just need to skip a bit to see the matches. Here are the match information Yesterday SKT and STX are playing in the 2012 Incheon Tourism and Leisure Sports Holiday Invitational Tournament. They are using these BW maps (scrolling down to see the pics): http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=50409&iskin=esports The maps and results are: Bifrost, sacsri (Z) vs dear (P) 1-0 Ohana, BeSt (P) vs 박건수 (Z) 1-0 Desert Flower, Bisu (P) vs Classic (T) 1-0 Transistor, S2 (Z) vs mini (P) 1-0 Guillotine, Rain (P) vs Trap (P) 0-1 VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 | ||
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Telsh
United States148 Posts
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Bareleon
371 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:58 larse wrote: You just need to skip a bit to see the matches. Here are the match information Where can I watch the bisu vs classic match? | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On November 28 2012 09:01 Bareleon wrote: Where can I watch the bisu vs classic match? I just give you the link to the VOD | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
Oh ok. So it's all there then. | ||
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KentHenry
United States260 Posts
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Portvilla
United States42 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Dexington
Canada7276 Posts
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
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AssyrianKing
Australia2115 Posts
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XX
17 Posts
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lol_Robot
United States66 Posts
On November 28 2012 09:14 aka_star wrote: They look good but unfortunately I am hesitant as to how well these maps will transfer across with the unit differences and the damn deathball syndrome. Why not try it? New maps, and a faster rotation in general should at least make matches look like less of the same all the time, and allow for interesting exploits and discoveries for the studious. If they don't work, get rid of them; OSL has had unbalanced maps in the pool before, but they were replaced quickly. I welcome a removal of watch towers at any level, but especially the pro level. Management of information, scouting, and in-game adaptation is a wholly different set of skills than general macro and micro, and would allow both for deeper games and a better spectator experience. There have been complaints about the lack of multi-front battles and passivity in WoL, why not take away the easy defense and free information over a wide area that towers provide and allow for the kind of "pimpest" positional plays that really show off a pro's multitasking and awareness skills. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On November 28 2012 10:00 lol_Robot wrote: Why not try it? New maps, and a faster rotation in general should at least make matches look like less of the same all the time, and allow for interesting exploits and discoveries for the studious. If they don't work, get rid of them; OSL has had unbalanced maps in the pool before, but they were replaced quickly. I welcome a removal of watch towers at any level, but especially the pro level. Management of information, scouting, and in-game adaptation is a wholly different set of skills than general macro and micro, and would allow both for deeper games and a better spectator experience. There have been complaints about the lack of multi-front battles and passivity in WoL, why not take away the easy defense and free information over a wide area that towers provide and allow for the kind of "pimpest" positional plays that really show off a pro's multitasking and awareness skills. Agreed with your point about the Xel Naga Towers at the pro level. Will make for better spectating as well. | ||
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Nerfed
Russian Federation1132 Posts
Finally they've started making their own maps. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On November 28 2012 09:13 Portvilla wrote: Where are the Electric Circuits/Fighting Spirits? I think Electric Circuits would be a great map on Sc2 and adding some weirdness to the game like the other kespa maps are doing. Fighting Spirits on the other hand would be aweful imo. Not that it would be imbalance ( we don't care at this point when we see the new maps xD), it would just be boring. It's almost Entombed valley without the 4 Middle bases. | ||
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Slackzftw
Germany361 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On November 29 2012 04:23 Slackzftw wrote: These maps are even worse than Blistering Sands or Steppes of War. Whats next? ProLeague making maps from Command&Conquer? SC2 is a new game and Maps from others games don't work with it. We all saw how terrible Crossfire (aka Peaks of Beakdu(?)) was. I'm sure they value your worthless bronze level opinion on their maps and will abolish them from Proleague immediately. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Ishu
40 Posts
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On November 29 2012 04:23 Slackzftw wrote: These maps are even worse than Blistering Sands or Steppes of War. Whats next? ProLeague making maps from Command&Conquer? SC2 is a new game and Maps from others games don't work with it. We all saw how terrible Crossfire (aka Peaks of Beakdu(?)) was. Crossfire wasn't identical to Peaks of Baekdu IIRC. And just because one map didn't work doesn't mean all maps will not work. And you seriously undermine your points, not only when you do the whole slippery slope thing, but also when you say that anything is worse than Steppes. Nothing can be worse than Steppes. Ever. Period. Personally, I'm happy to see new ideas implemented in maps. The map pool is getting too stale, relying on aesthetic rather than new design to make maps interesting. Even the HotS maps, once you get over the whole collapsable rocks thing, are pretty standard affairs. | ||
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ChaiNs
57 Posts
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
Here are a few glaring weaknesses you can pick out from about 2 minutes of map analysis: - It favors early pooling to an extreme degree in PVZ - It massively favors air harass in all matchups because of the ridiculous distance between the outer edges of the main and the nat - It massively favors blink play in PvT and PvP - There is more or less no way you can reliably stop a 4gate with a tech build in PvP It's like they just took 2.5 years of map making knowledge and said "LOL NOPE we're better than these imbeciles". Innovation is fine, but seriously, at this point they should know better than to make a map with double ramps to the high ground. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 30 2012 05:58 iKill wrote: Transistor is - in my eyes - just a fucking joke. Here are a few glaring weaknesses you can pick out from about 2 minutes of map analysis: - It favors early pooling to an extreme degree in PVZ - It massively favors air harass in all matchups because of the ridiculous distance between the outer edges of the main and the nat - It massively favors blink play in PvT and PvP - There is more or less no way you can reliably stop a 4gate with a tech build in PvP It's like they just took 2.5 years of map making knowledge and said "LOL NOPE we're better than these imbeciles". Innovation is fine, but seriously, at this point they should know better than to make a map with double ramps to the high ground. Is it a bad thing to actually have a map that's good for air hurass? In the pool right now in the GSL I can't see any maps that are actually any good for air. It basically makes mutas pointless, especially when all maps have the Fighting Spirit style triangle defended main base. | ||
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Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:00 Qikz wrote: Is it a bad thing to actually have a map that's good for air hurass? In the pool right now in the GSL I can't see any maps that are actually any good for air. It basically makes mutas pointless, especially when all maps have the Fighting Spirit style triangle defended main base. Agreed. One of the main reasons I don't even watch SC2 anymore is the stagnant map pool. It's always the same map, with minor changes. Even if they aren't 100% balanced, different maps allowing new strategies are exciting! | ||
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Lasbike
France2888 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:03 Kurr wrote: Agreed. One of the main reasons I don't even watch SC2 anymore is the stagnant map pool. It's always the same map, with minor changes. Even if they aren't 100% balanced, different maps allowing new strategies are exciting! Another thing I noticed is there's actually dead space outside the main so AFAIK you can't actually blink in. | ||
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Loxley
Netherlands2480 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:18 Lasbike wrote: How did Stephano let HerO kill 3 infestors after that hatch with his zealots :o Wrong thread? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:30 Qikz wrote: Another thing I noticed is there's actually dead space outside the main so AFAIK you can't actually blink in. Pathfinder from BW was a "terrible map" due to similar reasons as Transistor. What do we get? One of the best comebacks in PvT history. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
I am sick and tired of the "far rush distance, super easy to take and defend third" maps that encompass the entirety of the sc2 scene right now | ||
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Dwelf
Netherlands365 Posts
I'm also confident enough in the tourney organizers that any maps with obvious imbalances will be removed/replaced quickly. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:18 Lasbike wrote: How did Stephano let HerO kill 3 infestors after that hatch with his zealots :o must be because they weren't playing on a kespa map | ||
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glzElectromaster
Japan2474 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:11 lorestarcraft wrote: That high ground behind the nat, rofl. Heartbreak Ridge. Dat map. | ||
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sighsigh
Australia40 Posts
On a side note, I would like to see tournaments like Dreamhack, MLG, IPL, IEM and other big tournaments besides GSL and OSL to start paying for professional map creations. You can't make tournaments successful any more without finally putting resources into developing interesting maps. We shouldn't rely on community map designers to produce works of art but instead pay these people to dedicate their time to hone their skills. | ||
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eejaydubya
United States36 Posts
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worldpeace30
United States106 Posts
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Skytt
Scotland333 Posts
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ETisME
12497 Posts
edit: until you full screen it | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
ohhhhhh memories. tank drops in the back. lurker drops in the back. mine out back and speedling into main teehehehehe | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On December 03 2012 20:31 Kal_rA wrote: ohhhhhh memories. tank drops in the back. lurker drops in the back. mine out back and speedling into main teeheheheheThese things were what kept me from ever getting above D on iCCUP. I lost every single game as Terran to those strats, well atleast lurker drops. T_T | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3685 Posts
This is actually pretty entertaining, the maps look so sick, I really hope someone will eventually upload them to na/eu, because I would love to play on them. | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
edit: does somebody know who are these casters? | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
Edit: wtf, the neutral morphing zerg buildings blocking expos on Arkanoid... protoss is SO HUGELY disfavored there... | ||
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worldpeace30
United States106 Posts
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Assaulter
Lithuania324 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3685 Posts
On December 03 2012 21:29 Assaulter wrote: epic map, 9 minute infestors, 14 minute broodlords. I predict a lot of very exciting TvZ games here Well it looks like rock paradise so I'm saying blizzard will remove the neutral zerg thingie, replace it with rocks at natural, and leave it in ladder map pool for atleast a year. | ||
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ETisME
12497 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
Most maps are like 14 minute broodlords anyway and it promotes air play as infestors can't free fungal vikings/protoss air in the highground pod areas. I sense that being one of the best maps of all of WoL. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24591 Posts
It raises a lot of questions about what we take for granted as being 'natural' in a map, Zerg being able to take three quick hatches and defending them and P&T being able to take two then three expo's in a bit longer progression. I think it was a lot more fun to look at Arkanoid because it promoted a different pace and meta of the game. | ||
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HaZardous47
United States106 Posts
I'm excited for the meta-shaking this will force to happen. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On December 04 2012 14:48 HaZardous47 wrote: For everyone asking for Fighting Spirit, Desert Flower IS Fighting Spirit. It's just rotated 90 degrees I'm pretty sure. I'm excited for the meta-shaking this will force to happen. I'm really not sure how you could get that so wrong. Fighting Spirit is a 4p rotational map, while Desert Flower is a 2p map. If people want a Fighting Spirit tribute/port though, they could check out Abaddon Blaze on the NA server. | ||
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Cantro
Canada117 Posts
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IcookTacos
Sweden295 Posts
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
However, I feel like Transistor is a terrible map to play on against Z... On December 03 2012 20:45 Qikz wrote: These things were what kept me from ever getting above D on iCCUP. I lost every single game as Terran to those strats, well atleast lurker drops. T_T I was stagnating hard at D+ and had no chance whatsoever in PvZ. Then I said: "fuck it!" and started playing only heartbreak ridge only PvZ. A few dozen of games later I was C- and halfway up to C Then I quit playing because it turned out that I couldn't beat any P or T that was C-.... | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On December 03 2012 20:45 Qikz wrote: These things were what kept me from ever getting above D on iCCUP. I lost every single game as Terran to those strats, well atleast lurker drops. T_T Its actually no that hard to deal with if your aware its a possibility. Just float a building around there for spotting and keep a tank or two back, maybe place a turret on the high ground that could be used against muta harass aswell.. shame | ||
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Nightshade_
United States549 Posts
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starfinder
Japan167 Posts
On December 14 2012 11:49 Nightshade_ wrote: how do we play these new maps? Cant find them in the KR or NA client search"kespa" on KR | ||
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VGhost
United States3616 Posts
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Nightshade_
United States549 Posts
I did, 0 results | ||
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
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Lysergic
United States355 Posts
KeSPA Bifrost KeSPA Planet S KeSPA Arkanoid Search for them in custom games (not arcade). I can't publish Caldeum until I find a replay of it first. If anyone can get a replay played on Caldeum, or if you have a KR account, please upload it to http://www.drop.sc I managed to revert the hidden result screen (score summary, economy breakdown, graphs), but I still can't figure out how to make the Build Order chart to show up. Does anyone know how to fix this, or how it is hidden in the first place? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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