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Canada16217 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Show nested quote +Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Show nested quote +Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt. Show nested quote +
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. Show nested quote +"play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. Show nested quote +"As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. Show nested quote +"Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed.
Your points seem biased, read the ESFI phone conversation translation again too.
Edit:
You should also stop trying to prove you are right over TB because your opinion doesn't actually matter, then again you can waste your time however you want so feel free to having meaningless arguments, like you have throughout this whole topic/post.
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On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes.  Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations.
Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc).
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On October 24 2012 06:20 Kerence wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. I probably shouldn't but here goes... If you don't intend to respond to his imo pretty well formulated questions (and except for the first part not really hostile at all) why even bother answering at all? You do this pretty much every time someone posts something negative, no matter how well constructed the rest of the post is. Why not instead counter his arguments and make you look good in the process?
I agree on the first part of my post being a bit overly hostile, however I wanted to point out his post had obvious bias in there because it didn't show the whole picture. Especially so on the excerpt he uses of the phonecall.
However, my apologies to you TotalBiscuit, I could've written the first sentence less hostile.
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On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her.
He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did.
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It does not make sense for an employee not to be entitled to their dues, regardless of how magnanimous their employer is supposedly being.
If MMA loses a sponsorship to a manager because the management is horrible, then he's entitled to ask questions and perhaps even make a PR shitstorm.
It's amazing how people like crank could be viewed as spoiled because Boxer spent money on the team. I don't understand how Korean employee-management relations could exist. The place would be horrible for employees. Crank practically worked for free. Is there another place in the world that views investments deserving of free labor? It does not make sense.
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On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did.
I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it.
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im inclined to blame manager J.
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Jessica and Manager J.
Without Jessica I think SlayerS would be the greatest team out there at the moment.
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StarCraft 2 pro scene: where the game is so boring that people care more about rumours and drama happening in the scene. 
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On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc).
I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism.
I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here.
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On October 24 2012 06:32 Arnstein wrote:StarCraft 2 pro scene: where the game is so boring that people care more about rumours and drama happening in the scene.
Hey man, we need something to read for the first 8-15 minutes of every game.
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On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it.
Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft.
Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over?
Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism.
If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got.
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On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here.
No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold.
Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them.
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On October 24 2012 06:37 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it. Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft. Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over? Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism. If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got.
Get your facts straight. jessica funded the thing all the slayers players didnt pay a buck in the end
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On October 24 2012 06:48 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:37 dsousa wrote:On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it. Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft. Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over? Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism. If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got. Get your facts straight. jessica funded the thing all the slayers players didnt pay a buck in the end
I have never heard of a company or team where their employees have to pay a buck to establish them, unless they are also in a partnership or management. The fact that players didn't pay a buck doesn't negate that Jessica was so bad at team management. And the fact that she invested a lot does not mean it is not her fault if her investment failed.
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On October 24 2012 06:48 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:37 dsousa wrote:On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it. Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft. Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over? Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism. If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got. Get your facts straight. jessica funded the thing all the slayers players didnt pay a buck in the end
Free emotional abuse..... you no pay even one buck. My bad, sounds great. Surprised it didn't work out for Slayers in that case
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On October 24 2012 06:37 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it. Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft. Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over? Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism. If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got.
Yeah but she wanted to. Soooo, not sure.
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On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them.
Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system.
Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place.
This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit.
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EPT
