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On October 24 2012 05:09 Imperfect1987 wrote:
I find it odd that people feel sorry for Boxer when he was a key figure in the death of the team. What kind of team leader goes to the house and just plays a MMO instead of SC2 in a progaming house (Jessica's own phone call statement confirms this)? Especially when the players are complaining about a poor environment (Everyone on the team but Jessica and Boxer claim this). He then has his girlfriend with no gaming experience and obvious control issues make all the calls in said gaming house. On top of that he just nonchalantly ditches the SlayerS house when the failures of him and his girlfriend are becoming apparent. He then hides while he watches several of the past players be burned by Jessica when they supposedly did the exact same thing Boxer did (abandon a poorly run team). There are quite some double standards going on here. What I get from this is Boxer is a coward who does not know how to lead and Jessica is a terrible manager who scapegoats everybody but the true culprits (Her and Boxer).
People just love Boxer so they give him an easy time.
Working with your fiancée is always going to be really hard, and if they happen to be very difficult and emotional then that's doubly true. He shouldn't have gotten into the situation in the first place - don't work with someone you have a relationship with unless that relationship is strong enough to withstand you standing up for your employees over them - and should have taken more control of the situation rather than just hiding away, but his mistakes are at least somewhat understandable, as is his desire to have as little to do with it as possible.
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On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running.
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is:
1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time.
2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell.
Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team.
He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset.
Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month.
Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?)
3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now.
"A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions"
Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions.
"play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?"
Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers.
"As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien."
So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all.
"Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running."
Agreed.
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On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running.
You are absolutely right, Sir.
And it's a beautiful thing to see, that he is under your wing now.
Can't imagine that you would tread anyone like they did.
I think there is something wrong in the majority of the Korean pro scene.
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On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing. Show nested quote +
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running.
Great summary. I don't understand the false equivalency going on that both sides share some blame. One person made this into a giant public row over very little. She has also failed to provide documents that would confirm the guilt of manager J or any other play or prove that she was not engaged in poor behavior.
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On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:
3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against.
But in his interview he says that he didn't want to play in GSTL because his neck hurt, but apparently this didn't get through to the team (probably a misunderstanding?).
+ Show Spoiler +Crank: I told Cella that "I am having a difficult time following the schedule." So I told him even before the season started that "after this season I will leave the team." Then the neck pain started again. Mornings before my matches I would go to a local hospital to receive treatment. Back then I was the most passionate about GSTL and practiced the most. I tried to ignore the pain, but after the match with Fnatic the pain became too great to ignore. So I said that I would go back to my home and concentrate on getting treatment.
And then in the next paragraph he says he told Jessica he wanted to leave the team but it wasn't for the money. Then when he gets home he starts streaming and looking for a team because he has no income. I can see why Jessica feels like he lied to her. I realize he didn't actually get paid while on Slayers, but it shouldn't have come to a surprise to him that he needed money when he left them.
Or did I misunderstand something?
[Edit]: Shival sort of points out the same things (and a few more) a couple of posts above mine.
+ Show Spoiler +Crank: So when I told her that I wanted to leave the team I made sure to tell her that it's not because of money. After many talks Jessica told me "I am sorry for the misunderstanding and thank you for working hard so far. Do what you want to do when you get home." [...] However when I started playing by myself I was short of money for living costs. No I had none. It was impossible for me to keep staying as a pro gamer, and even making an environment for myself to play was impossible. So I went to streaming but even that didn't help much. So I decided to look for a personal sponsorship or a team who would want me. I said that I wanted someone who could support me and only streamed during late nights and early morning when most of the foreigners would watch. I streamed to live. I wanted to play the game.
One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement [...]
I don't know, at one point in life I would have been pretty happy to sit around playing a game all day for just food and what not. I'd say it depends on where you are in life. These days you'd have to pay me at least enough to break even on my bills, hah (this assuming that I was actually good at the game, mind you).
Regarding the disband, it feels like pretty much everyone involved could have done things better. The whole thing seems pretty sad. Hopefully the news about this will die down soon.
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As TB has brought up a few times, the disbanding of SlayerS isn't on the players at all. Regardless of what happened with Crank/MMA/Alicia and others, thats not why the team folded. Yet that is where all the attention is. Jessica has done a fantastic job at directing all the drama onto the problems with the players rather than why the team really failed.
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Out of curiosity, does South Korea have any wiretapping laws? Doing this (recording and releasing a conversation on the phone publicly) can be dicey in the US, but I'm unaware of there are any laws in this regard in South Korea. (Yes, it can be illegal in parts of the United States to record a phone call without the other person being aware of that action being taken; in this sense, it gets really muddy because it's conceivably a personal phone call, or a business phone call, depending on who reads it in what way and who is involved and the topic of conversation.)
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On October 24 2012 05:42 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:09 Imperfect1987 wrote:
I find it odd that people feel sorry for Boxer when he was a key figure in the death of the team. What kind of team leader goes to the house and just plays a MMO instead of SC2 in a progaming house (Jessica's own phone call statement confirms this)? Especially when the players are complaining about a poor environment (Everyone on the team but Jessica and Boxer claim this). He then has his girlfriend with no gaming experience and obvious control issues make all the calls in said gaming house. On top of that he just nonchalantly ditches the SlayerS house when the failures of him and his girlfriend are becoming apparent. He then hides while he watches several of the past players be burned by Jessica when they supposedly did the exact same thing Boxer did (abandon a poorly run team). There are quite some double standards going on here. What I get from this is Boxer is a coward who does not know how to lead and Jessica is a terrible manager who scapegoats everybody but the true culprits (Her and Boxer). He was taking a break. The company that owns MMO he was playing was the sponsor of slayers. It was jessica who suggested that boxer play the game while resting.
Then he moved in and was the worst manager/supervisor anyone could've imagined. This guy is so bad at this it is not funny. Even corp carnies suggest 1-2 things and at least have a "talk with the team." According to people like crank and MMA he got out of his room, looked around, and said "things are ok I don't see the problem" then went back in.
It's his fault no matter whether it was crank who asked for the inspection, Jessica who told him to play their sponsor's game, or MMA who thought his sponsorships were being taken. He mishandled the situation so badly, but he's untouchable since he's boxer. Originally, it was easy to let go since he's been a progamer and not a manager. However, if early 20-something employees are getting hit for being bad early 20-something year old employees, the management should get hit for being horrid management.
Management and labor always have had, and always will have unequal distributions of power. However, the management should never be allowed to abuse it's power and simply blame all the employees for their mistakes when they clearly made their own arguably bigger mistakes. Apparently, it is alright in Korean society to do this. Crank's only transgressions were being rude to Jessica, and leaving without telling her (he wasn't even contracted). He's getting hit and accused to destroying the team and making 3/5 A-teamers leave. That is ridiculous. Jessica is a horrible piece of shit for trying to deflect that accusation onto him.
Second, Jessica has been lying through her teeth the whole time. Why does every single new statement she makes seem to agree a tiny bit more with the players? It's only because of her power as an employer/manager/rich person that she can do this. The players have been getting hit hard because 1 lie can screw them while Jessica can afford to lie again and again. Even stuff that looked like the players were lying (cella's statement/phone call) hurts them a lot more than Jessica could by spouting version after version of boxer's relationship with the team.
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On October 24 2012 05:50 felisconcolori wrote:
Out of curiosity, does South Korea have any wiretapping laws? Doing this (recording and releasing a conversation on the phone publicly) can be dicey in the US, but I'm unaware of there are any laws in this regard in South Korea. (Yes, it can be illegal in parts of the United States to record a phone call without the other person being aware of that action being taken; in this sense, it gets really muddy because it's conceivably a personal phone call, or a business phone call, depending on who reads it in what way and who is involved and the topic of conversation.)
there's a lot of apps for phone call recordings. korean courts have used such evidences (politicians use them, i'd assume celebrities would too). also there are black boxes in taxis in korea, but not all i think. those also have been used in court in korea. so i'm not sure if they're illegal to begin with but those type of recordings have been used in courts.
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On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise.
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On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise.
Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do.
Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here.
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On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise.
Tb, why don't you just give it a rest? all the sane people that has experience with professional leadership and management knows just how bad Jessica handled the situation, and in the end its they who will be making the shots about this, I mean look:
-When Jessica gave evidence of the ban the head of ESF stepped down, he didn't go out on twitter and started blaming other people.
-During the crisis of the BP oil spill it was the head person for that particular operation that was brought to court for questioning. The problems that had occurred where due to faulty equipment and lack of understanding on safety procedures. BP didn't go out and blamed the manufacturer of the parts that were broken, or onto the engineer people who were suppose to control that the equipment was okay. The guy who took the blame and stepped down was the head person himself.
The few first events of SC2 MLG was a disaster, everything happened from streaming problems, bad production to a freaking internet cable being cut off. Sundance didn't go "OMFG it was not my fault, it was this guy and this guy and this guy who screwed". He went out on air and apologized, did damage control then he kicked some people, hired new people and fixed it.
All this crap regarding who's fault it is doesn't matter, point is still that Boxer and Jessica created this team, they are the ones that put together... whatever this now is. Any person with a brain understands this.
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On October 24 2012 06:10 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Tb, why don't you just give it a rest? all the sane people that has experience with professional leadership and management knows just how bad Jessica handled the situation, and in the end its they who will be making the shots about this, I mean look: -When Jessica gave evidence of the ban the head of ESF stepped down, he didn't go out on twitter and started blaming other people. -During the crisis of the BP oil spill it was the head person for that particular operation that was brought to court for questioning. The problems that had occurred where due to faulty equipment and lack of understanding on safety procedures. BP didn't go out and blamed the manufacturer of the parts that were broken, or onto the engineer people who were suppose to control that the equipment was okay. The guy who took the blame and stepped down was the head person himself. The few first events of SC2 MLG was a disaster, everything happened from streaming problems, bad production to a freaking internet cable being cut off. Sundance didn't go "OMFG it was not my fault, it was this guy and this guy and this guy who screwed". He went out on air and apologized, did damage control then he kicked some people, hired new people and fixed it. All this crap regarding who's fault it is doesn't matter, point is still that Boxer and Jessica created this team, they are the ones that put together... whatever this now is. Any person with a brain understands this.
That's simply because Jessica does not stay in the same industry while all the other options you've named do stay in the industry. They cannot afford to lose relations.
I do agree however that Jessica has definately made mistakes, I just argue against the severity you people seem to make of it and the white washing that happens for the players.
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On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Show nested quote +Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Show nested quote +Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt. Show nested quote +
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. Show nested quote +"play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. Show nested quote +"As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. Show nested quote +"Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed.
Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture.
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Well that was a long interesting read. Looks like a clear communication problem. I mean from all I read it seemed like jessica really cared and was trying to make the team good/famous/money etc etc. It really seems like mma's success + manager J in his ear is what started it all. Mostly manager J tho.
That and lack of good management(altho good intentions) I'd say,. And Crank well... He should have just told the truth i guess. While reading the crank interview it seemed kinda out of line but I guess i can understand Jessicas reasoning for releasing it. Everyone is calling her a liar and a bitch so might as well shut up the liar part at least  '
If I had to pick a side. I guess I'd go with Jessica tho. She at least seems to be the most honest. And she has proof of players not lying and leaving team no problem(Ganzi/Taeja) Still pretty dramatic tho. And it seems unnec.
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On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here.
What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful.
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Managing a team (in any environment) is hard. Not only in terms of getting results, arranging for every mundane detail, getting sponsors and balancing finances, but also in terms of keeping players "happy". Management is responsible in my mind for proper communication with the players, understanding their egos, needs, concerns and making sure everyone has the same general expectations.
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On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture.
No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. 
On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful.
Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations.
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On October 24 2012 06:13 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:10 Integra wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Tb, why don't you just give it a rest? all the sane people that has experience with professional leadership and management knows just how bad Jessica handled the situation, and in the end its they who will be making the shots about this, I mean look: -When Jessica gave evidence of the ban the head of ESF stepped down, he didn't go out on twitter and started blaming other people. -During the crisis of the BP oil spill it was the head person for that particular operation that was brought to court for questioning. The problems that had occurred where due to faulty equipment and lack of understanding on safety procedures. BP didn't go out and blamed the manufacturer of the parts that were broken, or onto the engineer people who were suppose to control that the equipment was okay. The guy who took the blame and stepped down was the head person himself. The few first events of SC2 MLG was a disaster, everything happened from streaming problems, bad production to a freaking internet cable being cut off. Sundance didn't go "OMFG it was not my fault, it was this guy and this guy and this guy who screwed". He went out on air and apologized, did damage control then he kicked some people, hired new people and fixed it. All this crap regarding who's fault it is doesn't matter, point is still that Boxer and Jessica created this team, they are the ones that put together... whatever this now is. Any person with a brain understands this. That's simply because Jessica does not stay in the same industry while all the other options you've named do stay in the industry. They cannot afford to lose relations. I do agree however that Jessica has definately made mistakes, I just argue against the severity you people seem to make of it and the white washing that happens for the players.
And it still doesn't matter since a leader/manager involves a position of responsibility of the desired outcome to be created. Jessica and Boxer had that position and they failed to live up to the desired result.
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On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise.
I probably shouldn't but here goes...
If you don't intend to respond to his imo pretty well formulated questions (and except for the first part not really hostile at all) why even bother answering at all? You do this pretty much every time someone posts something negative, no matter how well constructed the rest of the post is. Why not instead counter his arguments and make you look good in the process?
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EPT
