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On October 24 2012 06:54 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:37 dsousa wrote:On October 24 2012 06:28 Medrea wrote:On October 24 2012 06:24 dsousa wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
Its ultimately Boxers fault because he allowed Jessica to control the team and he was the only one that could stop her. He created the monster, and when he realized he'd lost all control, he bailed. Just as all the players did. I suppose thats a rather abstract way of looking at it. Abstract? The man put his actress girlfriend, who obviously has severe drama issues in charge of the biggest team brand in Starcraft. Do you think the players were excited about that? Do you think they liked seeing Boxer fade into the background while Cruella Deville took over? Was Jessica the best person for the job? No, she was only involved because of her relationship with Boxer. It was pure nepotism. If everyone wasn't such a wimp about it, it should have been exposed for what it was right as it happened. Instead, everyone remained "respectful" and we got what we got. Yeah but she wanted to. Soooo, not sure.
Of course she wanted it.... there would be interviews and stage appearances.... and so many other fun things for her.
The point is, Boxer let her run amok. He had/has no ability to reign her in and she ended up taking it all down.
My wife runs all over me too, I'm not proud of it..... but I try and at least prevent others from getting hurt 
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On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit.
Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner (even with Asian descent) then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simply do not know enough about it.
Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her.
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On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her.
There was a literal a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there.
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On October 24 2012 06:23 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Your points seem biased, read the ESFI phone conversation translation again too. Edit: You should also stop trying to prove you are right over TB because your opinion doesn't actually matter, then again you can waste your time however you want so feel free to having meaningless arguments, like you have throughout this whole topic/post.
His opinion is the same value as TBs personal opinion (which he stated in his statement). Its not like some fanboys will automatically make his opinion more valuable. In fact, he has a heavy relationship to one of the parties involved in this, lets call it nicely "matter", which actually stops me from valuing his opinion very high.
In the end, this is a discussion-thread. People will and should argue. A problem will only start if one party (in this case Totalbiscuit) just flatout refuses to answer to arguments pointed at him. Which is fine actually, considering that he is "related" to crank (or whatever the right word is). But whats the point of writing down your personal opinion, to just straight go to insulting (again) if it gets "countered"?
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On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there.
Good example -.-.
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On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 05:02 TotalBiscuit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. How surprising to see such a biased statement once again. A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is: 1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time. 2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell. Choi: I didn't come out of the team to join a foreign team, I started looking for a foreign team to make living expenses.
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
Kim: That's why I allowed you to go home. Back then what you said about leaving the team. He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset. Choi: Why are you like this again? I never said it was neck 'disc'. My neck just hurt so I wanted to go home. Why are you exaggerating?
Kim: You said it like that so I saw it as it is. You keep saying this is all in the past but it has only been a month. Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.'
Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?) 3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now. "A bed and a bowl of rice?"
"poor conditions" Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions. "play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage?" Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers. "As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien." So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all. "Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running." Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
Your entire TL career thus far has been posting biased statements so I guess I should bow to your expertise. Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do. Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit.
Um for most professional workplaces, no. Unless you like limiting your career.
And for the entire Slayers fall out, I think this korean quote sums it up just right.
"호의를 계속 베풀면 그게 권리인 줄 안다"
"Too much endorsements/support can mislead people into thinking that its their right"
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On October 24 2012 07:04 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 05:45 Shival wrote:
[quote]
How surprising to see such a biased statement once again.
A few counter points for I'm afraid alot of people are simply nodding to your statement as it is:
1) It's not about whether he had a contract or not, that's not what we're arguing about at all. It's whether he shows respect to his former team, lying while leaving the team (and still does) and subsequently not showing any appreciation for the support that his team gave him to reach the level of play that he was at at that time.
2) Allow me to quote something of the phonecall aswell.
[quote]
He lied while leaving the team, Jessica has all the reason to be upset.
[quote]
Jessica has very good reasons for the statement she made on the problems of his neck, he himself said here that he wanted to go home because his neck hurt.
[quote]
Are you seriously trying to justify Crank and vilify Jessica even though Crank himself says he was ok with the statement going out as it went? It's quite ridiculous to complain a while after, while having agreed to it in the first place. (May I add that this is the same excerpt you use yourself?)
3) I'll refer you to counter statement nummero uno and dos. He did lots more wrong than what you are arguing (that's not to say that Slayers/Jessica did nothing wrong). I'd also like to add that you yourself are very proficient in using ad-hominems to certain community members here. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
4) You're forgetting to mention that Crank came into the team when he was an absolute chobo. Thus no, it's not a privilege for the team, it was a privilege for Crank to be accepted into the team and having been given the opportunity to get to the level he is at now.
[quote]
Right, as if that's all that Slayers did for them. They went above what any other Korean team did at the time, so yes, he should be grateful. To call it poor conditions is to call nearly every household in South Korea being in poor conditions.
[quote]
Well to be fair he managed to do that permanent damage on SKT. Let's make a parallel to football, if you go through a medical screening and they notice psysical damage that prevent you from excercising as much as they want, you won't be offered a job at all. So again, with his pre existing condition he should be glad he was offered the chance in Slayers.
[quote]
So would I, however you're looking through western glasses. It was the norm in SC2 to not pay your employees but offer them a house, food and other benefits, Am I to assume you pay his rent, food and other benefits, on top of a salary? I may also add that at the time he was Code B, and wasn't as skillful as he is now. I really doubt you would've picked him up at the skill level he was when Slayers did and pay him a salary. In fact I think you wouldn't have picked him up at all.
[quote]
Agreed. Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture. No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 24 2012 06:06 Shival wrote:
[quote]
Thanks, would you be so kind to point out where I've been posting biased statements? Atleast back up your claim as I do.
Edit: Ah nevermind, so far you haven't once responded to any argument I make in any thread, while I provided it each time you asked for one. We're having quite a one sided relationship here. What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there. Good example -.-.
What? I never saw anything of this level system. There was always -nim/-baksa attached to my uncle because he was a 50 year old boss I guess. Nothing else, really.
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sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know 
thanks al ot
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On October 24 2012 07:07 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:04 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:13 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
Can I ask something, are you of East Asian origin (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? I think the view you gives has a strong East Asian influence, while the others based their argument on more Western culture.
No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. On October 24 2012 06:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:
[quote]
What the hell is there to reply to? Your arguments are awful. Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there. Good example -.-. What? I never saw anything of this level system. There was always -nim/-baksa attached to my uncle because he was a 50 year old boss I guess. Nothing else, really.
Simply because one workshop does not constitute Korean culture. But if you're so insistent, who's to say she hasn't allowed Banmal to her?
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This thing still going on? Let it go, people.
Damages have been done, nobody will get arrested also, no juice in this drama anymore.
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On October 24 2012 07:11 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:07 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 07:04 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:On October 24 2012 06:16 Shival wrote:[quote] No, while I have spend about a year in South-Korea I'm of dutch origin. That may influence my way of thinking, yes. [quote] Yet I still have to see any response pointing that out. This is just baseless accusations. Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there. Good example -.-. What? I never saw anything of this level system. There was always -nim/-baksa attached to my uncle because he was a 50 year old boss I guess. Nothing else, really. Simply because one workshop does not constitute Korean culture. But if you're so insistent, who's to say she hasn't allowed Banmal to her?
One workshop? It was like that everywhere but the church.
As for the girl, she kept trying to insist that she had a boyfriend. The guy just told her to bring him too...hahahaha....she sounded a bit uncomfortable. I doubt they were that familiar.
It was all American-y at cabaret clubs, bars, restaurants, the tour bus at Jeju, the airport, billiard clubs.
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On October 24 2012 07:12 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:
This thing still going on? Let it go, people.
Damages have been done, nobody will get arrested also, no juice in this drama anymore.
In fact, there is.
I reconsidered a bit after getting some sleep, and i don't believe CranK meant harm or had a "malicious intent". He handled his shit just stupid (as in, like a kid). Guess he will learn from that. Etc etc.
What really gets me, is that Manager J gets away completely "unharmed". I really feel people should "witchhunt him" way more than Jessica or CranK. I don't get why nobody points at him (not even Jessica, which is really weird compared to CranK etc).
Edit: the last matter is btw why i think Jessica is not a bad person, the longer this goes on, the more she comes off to me like just a really disappointed woman. If you consider "old-school-stuff" in Korea (like respect your elders no matter what etc), which she seemingly learned when she was young, yeah.. She puts in way to much tenacity though.
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On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot
Jessica rage at some players and other korean teams
Other korean teams apology by Jessica .
Some players rage Jessica .
Jessica rage at some players.
Boxer says not much.
Some player rage at Jessica.
TotalBiscuit quotes some rage and crys
Jessica publish private phone call.
In phonecall:
player rage at Jessica.
Jessica rage at player.
Can be that i missed some rage/cry in the steps between.
To be continued....
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On October 24 2012 07:14 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:11 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:07 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 07:04 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:23 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, I guess so. I think generally TL goers that strongly criticize Jessica approach the problem with more of Western work culture (place strong responsibility to leader to make sure that employee are content with the environment) while people with East Asian influence (Korean netizens) are blaming players because of the culture (youngsters have to always obey adults, etc). I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism. I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there. Good example -.-. What? I never saw anything of this level system. There was always -nim/-baksa attached to my uncle because he was a 50 year old boss I guess. Nothing else, really. Simply because one workshop does not constitute Korean culture. But if you're so insistent, who's to say she hasn't allowed Banmal to her? One workshop? It was like that everywhere but the church. As for the girl, she kept trying to insist that she had a boyfriend. The guy just told her to bring him too...hahahaha....she sounded a bit uncomfortable. I doubt they were that familiar.
Shows enough I'd say, to even use the guy as an example, while he says such things is in my opinion silly. Of course he doesn't have the manner to use formal speach.
Anyway, if you want to believe what you think about Korean culture be my guest.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot
unfortunately, no... this shit is complicated. Overall I think I spent like 6 hours or so reading posts and i still barely get what is exactly going on. But I think I get a good portion now.
Read the OPs, read the interviews. The shival/TotalBiscuit conversation on this page is also pretty nice, it helped me a lot.
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On October 24 2012 07:16 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot Jessica rage at some players and other korean teams Other korean teams apology by Jessica . Some players rage Jessica . Jessica rage at some players. Boxer says not much. Some player rage at Jessica. TotalBiscuit quotes some rage and crys Jessica publish private phone call. In phonecall: player rage at Jessica. Jessica rage at player. Can be that i missed some rage/cry in the steps between. To be continued....
seems funny tho :D
i might be hated for this, but i always hated Jessica :/
On October 24 2012 07:22 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot unfortunately, no... this shit is complicated. Overall I think I spent like 6 hours or so reading posts and i still barely get what is exactly going on. But I think I get a good portion now. Read the OPs, read the interviews. The shival/TotalBiscuit conversation on this page is also pretty nice, it helped me a lot.
thanks... i think i will read it little by little, even if i finish everything in like a week.
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On October 24 2012 07:19 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:14 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 07:11 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:07 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 07:04 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 07:03 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:59 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:55 boxturtle wrote:On October 24 2012 06:40 Shival wrote:On October 24 2012 06:34 boxturtle wrote:
[quote]
I really don't understand where the people with an Asian school of thought are coming from in this particular debate. Yes, socially their norms are different. However, no one can dream of running a business under their social norms. In America, we do not behave the same way in the office as we do in open society. This concept is called professionalism.
I doubt Samsung regards their advisers' suggestions and business plans based on how old they are. Slayers shouldn't either. I don't see my skinny white boss in plaid shorts come up to me and say "WADDUP JOEY MY NIGGA" the same way he did when we were in college. That would not be wise to say in my office, despite it being a common cultural occurrence in society here. No, they pretty much have a level system in Asia where it counts how long one has been in the organization, how old they are and what position they hold. Why Jessica got mad at Crank is because he stopped using Jondaemal and went over to Banmal. Which is a no go to your elders, or boss or someone who has long experience in the field. That is unless they tell you that it's ok to use Banmal to them. Ahem, my Korean uncle owns a factory. There was a 24 year old girl at the head of the alloy research lab. There...probably is no level system. Also, you can speak a mixture of horrid Americanized Korean and je ju do sa tu ri and never get called out during a 2 month visit to Korea. I really don't think that there's such a seniority system in place. This was 3 years ago. If you were in Korea 10+ years ago, I think times have changed a bit. Thanks for just showing you have no clue about how it works in South Korea. If you are a foreigner then people pretty much don't care if you do not use the proper forms, they assume you simple do not know enough about it. Also, your example doesn't show anything. I never said that someone young cannot reach a high position quickly. In fact, because she has that position those under her would have to use formal speach to her. Uhhhhh I saw a bum dude that had a job because my uncle felt sorry for him flirting with that girl. Yeahhh......not a lot of "polite" speech going on there. Good example -.-. What? I never saw anything of this level system. There was always -nim/-baksa attached to my uncle because he was a 50 year old boss I guess. Nothing else, really. Simply because one workshop does not constitute Korean culture. But if you're so insistent, who's to say she hasn't allowed Banmal to her? One workshop? It was like that everywhere but the church. As for the girl, she kept trying to insist that she had a boyfriend. The guy just told her to bring him too...hahahaha....she sounded a bit uncomfortable. I doubt they were that familiar. Shows enough I'd say, to even use the guy as an example, while he says such things is in my opinion silly. Of course he doesn't have the manner to use formal speach. Anyway, if you want to believe what you think about Korean culture be my guest.
To be honest, the only relevance of Korean culture in this is why they are treating the call as if it were formal instead of casual. Crank already stated he left the team and she already published whatnot/did whatever interview.
It really doesn't make sense that crank is getting hit for anything her. Jessica/Boxer pretty much told him they were going to fuck him, and tried to get him to implicate MMA/Ryung/Alicia in a recorded phone call. It completely failed, they only got him to break down, which Korean netizens are going rabid over.
I wonder if they will calm down and actually look at this logically after all the Jessica-star-power wears off, and Boxer is nowhere to be found.
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On October 24 2012 07:23 HyunA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:16 skeldark wrote:On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot Jessica rage at some players and other korean teams Other korean teams apology by Jessica . Some players rage Jessica . Jessica rage at some players. Boxer says not much. Some player rage at Jessica. TotalBiscuit quotes some rage and crys Jessica publish private phone call. In phonecall: player rage at Jessica. Jessica rage at player. Can be that i missed some rage/cry in the steps between. To be continued.... seems funny tho :D i might be hated for this, but i always hated Jessica :/ Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:22 Fenrax wrote:On October 24 2012 07:10 HyunA wrote:sorry for asking this, but is there any summary of this drama? the info to read is too much and i don't really have the time, but i wanna know thanks al ot unfortunately, no... this shit is complicated. Overall I think I spent like 6 hours or so reading posts and i still barely get what is exactly going on. But I think I get a good portion now. Read the OPs, read the interviews. The shival/TotalBiscuit conversation on this page is also pretty nice, it helped me a lot. thanks... i think i will read it little by little, even if i finish everything in like a week.
Nah.
It have screaming, crying, boxer, korean pro teams, big player names, lost of a team... everything.
So in the end its just a bad American sitcom. from korea...
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I do believe Jessica just owned MMA and Crank in her replies.
What people have to realise is she is a 40 year old actress who has been on TV and in movies for more than a decade, Boxer is similar, and they both put millions into the team, and bent over backwards to make it work anyway they can.
Then there is the players, teenagers and early 20's, pro gamers for a few years, some a few months, complained about "Stress" and "atmosphere", most weren't winning, so no money, complaining about this or about that, Crank, i don't want to play because my neck hurts, then goes and looks for another team behind their back, MMA changed his attitude after winning a lot and then he started losing games and slacked off, who's fault is that? Alicia, I don't want to play because "i don't like losing in team league". Like, are you fucking serious? How do you think MKP feels?
Yep, sure its Jessica's fault the team died.
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On October 24 2012 07:16 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 07:12 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:
This thing still going on? Let it go, people.
Damages have been done, nobody will get arrested also, no juice in this drama anymore.
In fact, there is. I reconsidered a bit after getting some sleep, and i don't believe CranK meant harm or had a "malicious intent". He handled his shit just stupid (as in, like a kid). Guess he will learn from that. Etc etc. What really gets me, is that Manager J gets away completely "unharmed". I really feel people should "witchhunt him" way more than Jessica or CranK. I don't get why nobody points at him (not even Jessica, which is really weird compared to CranK etc). Edit: the last matter is btw why i think Jessica is not a bad person, the longer this goes on, the more she comes off to me like just a really disappointed woman. If you consider "old-school-stuff" in Korea (like respect your elders no matter what etc), which she seemingly learned when she was young, yeah.. She puts in way to much tenacity though.
I agree with this mostly. I think it would be best if we all just agree to disagree on all the players and Jessica and stop harping about any of that. Just stop it all, no Jessica is right, Jessica is wrong (or worse).
Lets bring the matter to Mr. J if we want to discuss or rage about anything.
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EPT
