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So far from what I have gathered everyone is at fault in this debacle. The management of slayers, ESF's involvement, and poor communication from the players. HOWEVER, I will say at the current moment I find Jessica most at fault, for not the collapse of the team, but for the drama. All of this SHOULD have been a private matter. She claims that people will forget SlayerZ after it has disbanded, yet she is the one causing all of the issues in the community.
In her defense, she most likely was truthful in coming out with her side of the story in order to protect herself and Boxer. While in doing so is what has lead to all of this controversy where people are trying to place blame on selective parties when if you see ALL of the issues revolving around the disbanning of SlayerZ. There is no one person at fault!
There is so much management can do with what they know. Crank came to both Jessica and Boxer multiple times to try and fix issues. They responded with what they thought was the correct course of action but proved to be inadequate. On the issue of transportation, outside of flights, I do not see an issue of the players resolving their own form of transportation. via a taxi or bus. Transportation TO an event on the other hand Would be the teams responsibility.
The only reason people are blaming players is because they are partially to blame for the problems had transpired to cause this massive implosion. However placing blame on any single player is downright wrong, no single person could be the cause of a team's demise. MMA is just as much at fault for not coming forth with this info that "Mr. J" had provided to him, and conveying his concern to Jessica.
Crank in my opinion is LEAST at fault but still a guilty party in this case due once again to poor communications between him and Jessica and Cella about his exit to the team. It is very clear to me the issue with crank is competey a misunderstanding by ALL parties. People saying the phone call will be daming evidence that Crank is at fault. But the "rough" translations I have read between him and Jessica is really what the public statement Team Axiom made. He wanted to understand why he was to blame for a teams demise and being publically attacked indirectly through Jessica's explanations. He is by no means innocent, because Jessica and Boxer are also correct in their belief that when he left, he started the avalanche which followed.
So then whom is at fault for team SlayerZ demise?
The answer is simple; Bad communication from all parties. A business can only succeed if it works as a well oiled machine. If even one cog in the machine becomes rusted the entire machine will cease to function. Due to the poor communication between all parties involved (I am not including the ESF portion in this because I do not have the data to have a conclusion on that) one rusted gear (in this case Crank) was not well cared for even when the maintainer was made altered to the problems that needed to be fixed and eventually broke the machine entirely when the problem spread to other parts of the machine.
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On October 23 2012 10:46 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:44 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:38 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:28 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:24 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:22 Mackus wrote:On October 23 2012 10:19 tMomiji wrote:
[quote]
-crack-
The human brain does not fully develop (mature) until around age twenty five, and of course you wouldn't get used to that right away - it's a gradual process; usually not complete until one is around age thirty. And not a single fuck was given this day The point still stands, and that abuse was just uncalled for. Nice job quickly editing it out before anyone noticed. You can't expect people to act more mature than they actually are. Guess next time at the kindergarden i won't greet the girls working there anymore, could very well be that they're not actually working there, but taken care of. According to some people here at least. Because, you see, some of them are even under 20! Real cute. I know, right? Lets talk real here. If you really consider a 24 year old man a kid, you will not go far in life. You're 21 now, believe me: if you try to sit stuff out because "you're just 21", well, good luck. I just don't get how single mums with kids and job at age 23 can make it. You know, taking responsibility and think. Also, even if you were right, the development of your brain doesn't even matter. The intelligence and "learning experience" is done by that point. A normal 24yo is working his ass off (if he is a decent person) to create a path for his life. Not a whiny manchild. Learning experience is never finished; what are you talking about... I mean school-stuff. And manners. Don't know another word than learning experience for that. But nice to see that you know what i mean. I would still think emotional maturity matters a lot. Maybe I'm wrong...I'm not as immature as I was years ago but I'm sure not done maturing, especially not emotionally...sheesh! I will give you that. Even i (nearly a decade older than you) would not call myself "completely emotionally bulletproof". I'm not saying that you or CranK or whoever should be. BUT. You also should be further than a 15 year old boy. Come on.
Oh definitely - I shudder to think of what I was like when I was fifteen...wow. Big difference there. Hopefully he can learn from this and be stronger in the future - see, like we said, learning. XD
...Did we just reconcile? Holy crap.
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On October 23 2012 10:43 Jindo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:22 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:15 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:09 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:06 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:02 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 09:51 Jimz1469 wrote:
[quote]
THEY won, not her. Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility. The logic is pretty flawless. If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation. If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone. Ah, and what about the environment provided by the manager? The house provided by the manager? The pc's provided by the manager? The coaches provided by the manager? Do I need to go on? None of these things accomplish a GSTL victory. There are plenty of teams in Korea that have all these things, and no titles to speak of. They do, they give the means for a GSTL victory, and the better the things I named are, the more likely you do achieve a victory. To say otherwise is just ridiculously shortsighted. While other teams may also have them, they were in no way living as extravagantly as Slayers was (in comparison ofcourse). There is no correlation between living extravagantly and winning GSTL. Oh, where's your statistical evidence for such? I can atleast cite psychological evidence if you'd like, but I'd rather do that via PM as to not go off-topic here. If you'd like those facts, contact me and I'll give you numerous in a day or so. Let me rephrase - there is no evidence that a correlation exists. I have no interest in sifting through random psychology articles that you think apply to the situation at hand. If you have evidence from within the realm of Starcraft, I'd be happy to see those. Here's a link to SlayersCoca's interview. He scored 3 wins, putting Slayers into the Finals. Who did he thank for his victory? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354637
Everyone that it's customary to thank in an interview. He couldn't really have thanked himself, could he?
I'm pretty sure that Razer, Twitch.tv and TLAF aren't responsible for Taeja's success, but they get thanked every time nonetheless.
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On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 09:58 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
That's not the question I asked. I asked whether you can prove it beyond doubt or not? If not, then what you said is only a speculation.
And when people lied, the can be very creative too.
Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event. I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general. To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook.
He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided?
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On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:
[quote]
Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event.
I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general.
To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided?
I guess it depends on whether you think they deserve respect or not.
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On October 23 2012 10:49 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:43 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 10:22 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:15 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:09 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:06 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:02 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 09:54 Shival wrote:
[quote]
Good logic there. Team falls, her responsibility. Team wins GSTL, team's responsibility. The logic is pretty flawless. If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation. If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone. Ah, and what about the environment provided by the manager? The house provided by the manager? The pc's provided by the manager? The coaches provided by the manager? Do I need to go on? None of these things accomplish a GSTL victory. There are plenty of teams in Korea that have all these things, and no titles to speak of. They do, they give the means for a GSTL victory, and the better the things I named are, the more likely you do achieve a victory. To say otherwise is just ridiculously shortsighted. While other teams may also have them, they were in no way living as extravagantly as Slayers was (in comparison ofcourse). There is no correlation between living extravagantly and winning GSTL. Oh, where's your statistical evidence for such? I can atleast cite psychological evidence if you'd like, but I'd rather do that via PM as to not go off-topic here. If you'd like those facts, contact me and I'll give you numerous in a day or so. Let me rephrase - there is no evidence that a correlation exists. I have no interest in sifting through random psychology articles that you think apply to the situation at hand. If you have evidence from within the realm of Starcraft, I'd be happy to see those. Here's a link to SlayersCoca's interview. He scored 3 wins, putting Slayers into the Finals. Who did he thank for his victory? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354637 Everyone that it's customary to thank in an interview. He couldn't really have thanked himself, could he? I'm pretty sure that Razer, Twitch.tv and TLAF aren't responsible for Taeja's success, but they get thanked every time nonetheless.
In a way they are, without the sponsors TeamLiquid wouldn't exist and thus Taeja wouldn't be doing what he's doing.
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On October 23 2012 10:48 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:46 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:44 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:38 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:28 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 m4inbrain wrote:On October 23 2012 10:24 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:22 Mackus wrote:
[quote]
And not a single fuck was given this day The point still stands, and that abuse was just uncalled for. Nice job quickly editing it out before anyone noticed. You can't expect people to act more mature than they actually are. Guess next time at the kindergarden i won't greet the girls working there anymore, could very well be that they're not actually working there, but taken care of. According to some people here at least. Because, you see, some of them are even under 20! Real cute. I know, right? Lets talk real here. If you really consider a 24 year old man a kid, you will not go far in life. You're 21 now, believe me: if you try to sit stuff out because "you're just 21", well, good luck. I just don't get how single mums with kids and job at age 23 can make it. You know, taking responsibility and think. Also, even if you were right, the development of your brain doesn't even matter. The intelligence and "learning experience" is done by that point. A normal 24yo is working his ass off (if he is a decent person) to create a path for his life. Not a whiny manchild. Learning experience is never finished; what are you talking about... I mean school-stuff. And manners. Don't know another word than learning experience for that. But nice to see that you know what i mean. I would still think emotional maturity matters a lot. Maybe I'm wrong...I'm not as immature as I was years ago but I'm sure not done maturing, especially not emotionally...sheesh! I will give you that. Even i (nearly a decade older than you) would not call myself "completely emotionally bulletproof". I'm not saying that you or CranK or whoever should be. BUT. You also should be further than a 15 year old boy. Come on. ...Did we just reconcile? Holy crap.
I hope not. Would be completely against the flow of the thread, reducing (personal) drama. 
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Is Jessica the Yoko Ono of Starcraft II?
*Edit* Oh lol guess I'm not alone in this!
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On October 23 2012 10:50 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided? I guess it depends on whether you think they deserve respect or not.
True, although in South Korea, if one is your elder you're pretty much expected to show respect. They even have pretty much a seperate way of saying lots of words to show respect (jondaemal).
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On October 23 2012 10:45 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:42 boxturtle wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 09:58 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
That's not the question I asked. I asked whether you can prove it beyond doubt or not? If not, then what you said is only a speculation.
And when people lied, the can be very creative too.
Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event. I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general. To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Yeah, attacking CranK here is simply insane. In any other country, he'd be bullet proof. She shouldn't be able to include him in her hit list and succeed simply because he was broke down and acted rudely in a phone call she recorded without informing him. Korea should really get some new laws to protect people from getting fucked over by public figures. Simply a famous person/position attacking someone like this can ruin their lives. I thought the Tablo game was a 1 time incident, but it looks like Koreans make reddit look like children in the drama game. It's really no wonder so many people commit suicide in Korea. People committing suicide in South Korea has nothing to do with what you just said. It's rather due to stress related to excessive bias on school results and subsequent work. Secondly, South Korea has probably the most heavy laws regarding insults. Trolling on the internet is even subject to laws.
It's not "rather due to stress related to excessive bias on school results and subsequent work." That's an oversimplification. Cyber-bullying is a huge deal in Korea as well, as you've noted, and do you know what this entire internet campaign of Jessica's is? Ironically, it's that which she herself despises. There is no excuse for dumping this shit out into the public. I understand her airing of the ESF bullying issues, but this smear campaign is ridiculous. She has a position of power simply by virtue of a.) being older and b.) being Boxer's fiance, and she is quite frankly abusing it to ruin the careers of these players. This is not to say that the players are not at fault, but this is something that should've been handled in private. "But what about the duplicitous nature of the players? What if they are rotten apples?" some might cry. Then talk to other team managers about it -- y'know, like what people do about Naniwa -- without throwing all the personal conflicts and differences onto the internet, where you know the Korean mob will bite.
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On October 23 2012 10:50 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:
[quote]
To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided? I guess it depends on whether you think they deserve respect or not.
So, do you want to say according to you, Boxer doesnt deserve respect?
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On October 23 2012 10:52 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:50 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever.
But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided? I guess it depends on whether you think they deserve respect or not. True, although in South Korea, if one is your elder you're pretty much expected to show respect. They even have pretty much a seperate way of saying lots of words to show respect (jondaemal).
Ahh, cultural differences and expectations of society once again come up; that explains why the Korean scene is reacting (mostly) the way they are.
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On October 23 2012 10:23 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 09:58 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 09:55 mongmong wrote:On October 23 2012 09:53 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 09:49 mongmong wrote:On October 23 2012 09:47 Mackus wrote:
[quote]
Refuses to pay his Coach who won him the GSL. Deserves better, good logic.
Yet some refuse to believe it. Because you can't prove it beyond doubt? Well, If Jessica is lying about it, shes being very creative cuz it seems very "detailed" Giving graphics card to the coach instead of monetary compensation. hmm... That's not the question I asked. I asked whether you can prove it beyond doubt or not? If not, then what you said is only a speculation. And when people lied, the can be very creative too. Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event. I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general. To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. You mean they apologized by accusing even more and making up more claims?
But which claims ffs. That the team atmosphere was terrible ? That Boxer and Jessica were never in the house and never answered to their demands ?
Both sides are right and wrong. With just one intelligent person involved nothing of this would have happened. But one side is playing Attila here, and it's not the players.
We have to remember the context here. A successful team, well founded. How could that happen ? You people really believe the team is disbanding (yes, disbanding ! Don't they have any other players ? We still don't know why they're disbanding really, unless it's all MMA and Crank and Alicia's fault ?) because Crank left the team without saying to Jessica ?
This is all a big smoke screen, all this drama is very convenient for Slayers' management. Slayers is the team that lost the most players (I haven't counted, I just know a LOT of players left that team). Why ? Why people want to leave the fucking team of BOXER ? Something was wrong in this team. But perhaps they were unlucky, they hired all the most asshole players of Korea. While all other teams were lucky and hired normal people with actual social skills !
Please, stop theorycrafting and try to imagine the life in Slayer's house. What happened for things to deteriorate like that ? It's all because Crank wanted to leave and because MMA didn't pay Ryu ? (this Ryu thing isn't exactly clear either, but I won't go there).
When I imagine the life in Slayers house, I imagine that if there is a problem, Boxer inc, talks, and the problem is solved. So why it didn't happen like that. I guess it's because the players were meanies.
"Il y a quelque chose de pourri au royaume Slayers".
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- Regarding payment, I'm not financially well off, but I'm thankful to Boxer and Jessica for taking in a guy like me, and I did make my own personal goals for what I wanted to achieve with the team. The motivation to reach those goals wasn't money or anything material
Some team PLEASE get Cella, he's worth his weight in gold.
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On October 23 2012 10:53 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:45 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:42 boxturtle wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:
[quote]
Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event.
I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general.
To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Yeah, attacking CranK here is simply insane. In any other country, he'd be bullet proof. She shouldn't be able to include him in her hit list and succeed simply because he was broke down and acted rudely in a phone call she recorded without informing him. Korea should really get some new laws to protect people from getting fucked over by public figures. Simply a famous person/position attacking someone like this can ruin their lives. I thought the Tablo game was a 1 time incident, but it looks like Koreans make reddit look like children in the drama game. It's really no wonder so many people commit suicide in Korea. People committing suicide in South Korea has nothing to do with what you just said. It's rather due to stress related to excessive bias on school results and subsequent work. Secondly, South Korea has probably the most heavy laws regarding insults. Trolling on the internet is even subject to laws. It's not "rather due to stress related to excessive bias on school results and subsequent work." That's an oversimplification. Cyber-bullying is a huge deal in Korea as well, as you've noted, and do you know what this entire internet campaign of Jessica's is? Ironically, it's that which she herself despises. There is no excuse for dumping this shit out into the public. I understand her airing of the ESF bullying issues, but this smear campaign is ridiculous. She has a position of power simply by virtue of a.) being older and b.) being Boxer's fiance, and she is quite frankly abusing it to ruin the careers of these players. This is not to say that the players are not at fault, but this is something that should've been handled in private. "But what about the duplicitous nature of the players? What if they are rotten apples?" some might cry. Then talk to other team managers about it -- y'know, like what people do about Naniwa -- without throwing all the personal conflicts and differences onto the internet, where you know the Korean mob will bite.
Cyber bullying is a huge deal in any western country, that should not be a causality on the increased suicide rate compared to the other western countries.
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On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:On October 23 2012 10:08 Veldril wrote:On October 23 2012 10:05 Frost wrote:
[quote]
Jessica mentions in her interview with TIG regarding MMA's statement that Coach Ryu HIMSELF came to her because MMA refused to pay Coach Ryu's share from MMA's earning in Anaheim GSL which MMA and Coach Ryu previously agreed on a 8:2 share as Coach Ryu served as MMA's personal coach. So when Jessica went to MMA to talk about the issue, MMA gave Jessica a graphics card that he RECEIVED at the event.
I don't care whether you people keep saying "well, its still he said that she said that", because to me the evidence is pretty damning of both Crank and MMA and the Slayers players in general.
To you, maybe. But to many people, she needs to provide evidence or Coach Ryu's testimony/affidavit to prove it beyond doubt. Like you said, right now it's just "she said that he said that". That's hardly an evidence and would be laughed at in court. That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever. But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided?
You can't possible know the true reason as of why he decided not to tell the truth. His intention behind his actions could had been anything.
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On October 23 2012 10:50 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:49 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:43 Jindo wrote:On October 23 2012 10:22 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:15 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:09 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:06 Talin wrote:On October 23 2012 10:02 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:00 Talin wrote:
[quote]
The logic is pretty flawless.
If a team wins GSTL (accomplished by playing good Starcraft), then yes, it is the players' accomplishments, alongside maybe the coaches that worked with players during their preparation.
If a team falls apart, is ostracised from other teams / the scene, loses sponsors, loses a lot of talented players over a few months with most of remaining players wanting to leave as well, then it is the fault of the management alone. Ah, and what about the environment provided by the manager? The house provided by the manager? The pc's provided by the manager? The coaches provided by the manager? Do I need to go on? None of these things accomplish a GSTL victory. There are plenty of teams in Korea that have all these things, and no titles to speak of. They do, they give the means for a GSTL victory, and the better the things I named are, the more likely you do achieve a victory. To say otherwise is just ridiculously shortsighted. While other teams may also have them, they were in no way living as extravagantly as Slayers was (in comparison ofcourse). There is no correlation between living extravagantly and winning GSTL. Oh, where's your statistical evidence for such? I can atleast cite psychological evidence if you'd like, but I'd rather do that via PM as to not go off-topic here. If you'd like those facts, contact me and I'll give you numerous in a day or so. Let me rephrase - there is no evidence that a correlation exists. I have no interest in sifting through random psychology articles that you think apply to the situation at hand. If you have evidence from within the realm of Starcraft, I'd be happy to see those. Here's a link to SlayersCoca's interview. He scored 3 wins, putting Slayers into the Finals. Who did he thank for his victory? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354637 Everyone that it's customary to thank in an interview. He couldn't really have thanked himself, could he? I'm pretty sure that Razer, Twitch.tv and TLAF aren't responsible for Taeja's success, but they get thanked every time nonetheless. In a way they are, without the sponsors TeamLiquid wouldn't exist and thus Taeja wouldn't be doing what he's doing.
In a way that clearly doesn't contribute much to the end result. There are other players playing on the exact same terms as Taeja in that context (same team, same sponsors), and their performance is orders of magnitude below his.
There are countless similar obvious examples that point to the same thing - a player's results are his own, and all other factors do not amount to much overall. Good coaching is the only thing that can truly contribute, but that trend has barely scratched the surface in Starcraft 2.
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On October 23 2012 10:54 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:50 tMomiji wrote:On October 23 2012 10:49 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:40 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:36 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:34 Integra wrote:On October 23 2012 10:30 Shival wrote:On October 23 2012 10:26 Ghola wrote:On October 23 2012 10:18 MrCon wrote:On October 23 2012 10:12 Frost wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing. She already mentioned that she has the evidences to back up her claims and will go to court if necessary. But, i don't know if you read some of the previous articles, she does not want to downright kill Crank's and MMA's careers which is why she's only asking for an apology and nothing else. I mean your opinion does not matter at all whether Jessica and the involved members go to court, but you can continue to doubt whatever.
But they apologized already, and she continues. What you say doesn't make sense, sorry. You say she doesn't want to kill Crank and MMA's career. I really wonder what is she doing right now if it's not that. The phone call contain zero information, but still people are buying it as "evidence". evidence of what ? Crank's statement contained exactly what the phone call confirms. But it's JEssica that released it, so people just think automatically that it makes her right even tho it contains nothing. Seriously this thread is infuriating me. This, plus Jessica has a long history of doing shit like this. Stirring up drama, blaming other people for her bad management decisions, distorting the truth for her own benefit. The only reason people take her seriously is because she's boxers wife. There's only been three of those events. One was with Dragon leaving, but she was right in that one. Second was with Eve's pictures put on porn, so she was right to call out those persons and possibly sue them. Third was Crank leaving the team and publicly asking for a foreign team on his stream the very same day, even though he explicitly said he wouldn't do that. So she's right again. You can say that she creates drama, but rightly so, people have been abusive to her and her players. According to Cellas recent Twitter Crank did say that he was going to leave the team before this happened. So the last point might not no longer be considered as "truth", until more stuff unfolds... which it will given how things have gone so far... Read it again, it's not that he didn't say he would leave, it's the reasons and explanation he gave when leaving. well ,if that's the "bad thing" crank has done then I guess he is off the hook. He's off the hook for lying and showing no respect to any staff at Slayers nor the facilities they provided? I guess it depends on whether you think they deserve respect or not. So, do you want to say according to you, Boxer doesnt deserve respect?
Are you putting words in my mouth? Because I really hate that. People have different opinions is all I was attempting to say. This isn't even about Boxer - it's about Jessica/Crank/MMA.
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