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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad. Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo. So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On October 18 2012 16:09 Atoissen wrote: Brrrr, wrong... I think this is the case, most of us no longer trust Blizzard... They have been walking the same path for a long time, and they seem to be too stubborn to change critical errors with the game. Just about everyone agrees that one race feels kinda stable and the two others just feels broken. I loved watching SC2 for over a year, but after I got my Dota key 17'th May, I realised yesterday that the last time I logged into SC2 was May 16'th, this game is so much fun to play, a totally different level of fun compared to SC2 with its ladder anxiety, cheeses and bm (yes, its bm in dota also, but it getts punished by the report system). The worst thing about everything... I am not even going to buy HotS... pretty much the same with me. The last time I actually played StarCraft 2 was before Diablo 3 was release. I started playing Starcraft 2 at release, and I played pretty much everyday so I don't consider myself to be a casual gamer. It just stagnated. More and more of the people on my friends list started disappearing until I was pretty much the only person left. I started playing other games to kill time until I found Dota 2. Been playing ever since. Starcraft 2 lacks in so many areas it just isn't fun to play anymore. Its become way too frustrating because face it the shit starts getting too serious. People don't really play for fun anymore. They play to get a ladder ranking. While ladder is fun, and having a good ranking is nice to have, with no sense of community while you actually play the game, what's the point? I can't count how many times I raged because I lost a game from only 1 minor mistake or a bit of luck on my opponents side (hellion runby while your spine is rooting FTW) or losing because people abuse shit map design imbalances that your race can't do anything about. It just isn't fun anymore. Its drama and disappointment. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level. LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad. Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo. So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released. Good to see that some people still have the self control to stay calm and not panic at the first sign of problems. No game has ever had an e-sports scene that went without setbacks. LoL will have it's setbacks too. Dota 2 as well. There's going to be a point of oversaturation where people simply start to get tired of it or the game is simply getting bland and i don't think that's going to be different for any game. In fact i think it's rather impressive that sc2 went for so long without having this "winter" you speak of. Hots is going to be the best time possible for sc2 to reinvent itself and put itself on the market as what it is, the best RTS series around, both to play as well as to watch. Right now blizzard seems to be very intent on listening to the community, but right now i don't know if that is doing more right then it is doing wrong... Time will tell. | ||
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Heavenfallz
Australia73 Posts
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
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kthrss
Norway41 Posts
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc? Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day). This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill. For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!! A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait......... I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport. No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel. And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess. p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm) p.p.s Go IM-MVP!! QFT. Some good points here. In addition to this, I'd like to point out the ever obvious and ever more annoying Korean vs. foreigner scene discrepancy. I was going to write some of this in the new MMA/Ryung announcement thread, but this seemed like a better place once my post was finished. I like how EG (and Liquid) is picking up players in order to become a real powerhouse in the SC2 scene, and I'm not bothered at all that players like HuK, IdrA and the other nonkoreans on the team might get less playtime. I used to be a huge IdrA fan back in the day, and to a degree I still am, but until he gets out of his slump he's totally off my radar. Personally I've gotten to the point were I couldn't be bothered to spend time and effort following or watching internationally sub-par or bad players, even if that means that I support the non-koreans less (for the same reason I don't watch anything but top-level athletics or sports, I want to see the best). Some of them even have practice houses, great teammates, and time (particularly in EG), yet produce sub-par results, a lot of the time I just don't get why. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how X foreign player 'can' beat koreans but not consistently for X stupid reason. I'm genuinely worried that any current SC2 pro player below the top level will be in big trouble (and disappear completely from the international scene like many previous stars or hyped players already have) once the KeSPA players start reaching their best potential, and having only a handful of foreigners who can consistently beat koreans is bad enough already. Having non-korean based pro teams like EG (with its resources, good recruitment, multiple korean players) gives an opportunity for the non-korean players of these teams to get a better practice environment (assuming they all practice together, which they damn well should be doing). What we need is an overall more hardcore and serious SC2 progaming establishment outside of Korea (or at the very least, establish foreigner practice houses to a larger extent in Korea). EG provides this (supposedly), as long as they deliver more consistently than now. In particular the SC2 proscene in the U.S. needs a serious shapeup, with no players that can show consistent international results. I like cheering for underdogs, as do we all, but I don't want the mentality that non-Koreans are underdogs no matter what to continue for ever. How long will international SC2 last as a large and popular eSport if one country always dominates all the others? As much as I love watching Koreans play awesome StarCraft, I can't help but think that this will alienate a lot of viewers over time. It's big and popular in Korea, that's great, but it needs a proper footing outside Korea as well, with a solid base of good players to rival the Korean playerbase (which we so far DO NOT have, as far as results go). I don't play much SC2, but I actively watch most big SC2 tournaments. Like Particle wrote, I don't care for the small weekly tournaments. For hardcore fans who have a lot of time, maybe it's nice to be able to watch small tournaments, to see new players appear, showing their potential, and develop, however, I don't have the time or interest for tournaments that don't matter. I want to see the best players fighting their hearts out for a championship or a win that matters. I don't think the scene is 'oversaturated' with viewing material, rather the smaller tournaments are for up and coming players, the bigger tournaments for the better players. What I do agree on is that there needs to be more hype, focus and prestige involved in the big tournaments that matter the most. | ||
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klniceajer
Malaysia14 Posts
What crack are you on anyway ? And how the fuck does people thinks LoL is the whole new game to look out for ? Dota still have their shrine in China with devotees who are still loyal . It would be just the matter of time that LoL dies fast . | ||
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WetSocks
United States953 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:01 Filter wrote: Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming. ... you clearly never follow the dota & dota 2 scene | ||
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CamoPillbox
Czech Republic229 Posts
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YaShock
Hungary119 Posts
Don't make useless topics, just go post there your thoughts | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad. LoL was released 3 years ago, and their player numbers have done nothing but accelerate. Their last season tournament prize pool was 5 million dollars. SC2, on the other hand, has been out for 2 years and has seen fewer players every season on ladder. Tournament prize pools have remained stagnant since release. DotA is like 10 years old and has been played on that same map the entire time, too. It's not an issue. It's not a fad. The people making these threads are the ones who don't want SC2 to fail, and closing your eyes to the facts isn't going to make them disappear. SC2 is a great game, but the truth is that Blizzard got complacent with bnet2. As much as we've bitched about it here, it wasn't until recently that the community has finally woken up to the possibility that bnet's lacking features are really hurting its competitiveness with games like LoL and DotA2. It's not too late to correct this, but Blizzard doesn't seem like they're concerned about it at all. Hence, all these threads. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
SC2 is fine. I'd say more than fine actually. It went really big after it's release and somehow it has barely decreased in popularity over time. Do you realise how incredibly rare that is for a game?? There are companys who would kill to create a game with the immense success of Starcraft II. We just recently got a tournament with a 100 000 concurrent viewers again! And that is in the time now where there is even more tournaments and stuff to follow (almost too much). I'd almost say that sc2 is ridiculously successful. And exactly what big sponsors (that have a relevance in the computer market) aren't coming? Yeah, if you are disappointed that your favorite team isn't sponsored by Head & Shoulders or Jaguar and you exacpted the entire world to drop everything they held on to to watch SC2, then I can understand how you could possibly consider this to be a "crisis" Otherwise, it's just crazy doomsday talk | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
As a great fan of your work, Filter, I'd also like to remind you that World of Warcraft had multiplayer matches watched by 100,000 people or more at the same time as Starcraft BW was on. WoW PvP arena at its peak was more popular than LoL is right now by far, with half the streaming infrastructure that exists now and NO support from Blizzard whatsoever! WoW as an esport died nearly 4 years ago. BW kept going happily. A game that is interesting to watch will always surpass a game that isn't. LoL is a tepid frame by frame WoW PvP match played out in slow motion. It's not got longevity. | ||
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Fueled
United States1610 Posts
I'd say more than fine actually. It went really big after it's release and somehow it has barely decreased in popularity over time. Husky posted this 4 hours ago on Twitter: Husky @HuskyStarcraft StarCraft views are down 50-60% across the board on YouTube content. Subscribers are down same amount. Not just for me either. And wasn't it TB who said on Real Talk that Starcraft 2 was suffering on Youtube? (Don't quote me on that) Now this is Youtube and I don't keep up on how tournaments are doing viewer wise, but what Husky posted is pretty concerning. Hopefully come HoTS this will all be a thing of the past. | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level. LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad. Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo. So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released. football is played on 1 map, so i guess that it is also a fad, right? Stay delusional. | ||
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Alex1Sun
494 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:20 pmp10 wrote: I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS. Exactly my thoughts. HoTS is looking great, and Blizz HAS implemented many things that pros asked for. Community does not care. Community just whines and whines. The result: next year there will be SC2 crisis. You are making it, you are getting it. | ||
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herrmus
Sweden144 Posts
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:24 Raven_zero300 wrote: Your post hits the problem dead on the head. Too bad both of our posts will fall to the way side, as most of SC2's community that is left are 13 year old trolls. Starcraft 2's community is not just 13 year old trolls you are over exaggerating quite a bit trying to make it sound worse than it is. There is a problem yes and something needs to be done but over exaggerating and making everything sound a lot worse isn't going to help. Just because things are kind of "down" at the moment doesn't mean they won't get better eventually. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
The problem with that it's not SC2, it's the RTS genre. DotA and LoL are more casual friendly games and is easier to get into, easier to play, and has a lot more variety. RTS genre is general is dying (well not dying but it's probably not going to be top 1 competitive game genre these days anymore, sadly). BW thrived because it had little competition (there wasn't Dota or LoL or MMOs back then). Also about the topic of making SC2 easier to get into or so. I'd argue that's nearly impossible (with competition that is) without changing the genre itself. Warcraft III is arguably easier to get into, more casual, and more fun to play casually than SC2 but yet it died off (to guess what, Dota) really just after 2 years or so after The Frozen Throne was released. Also speaking Dota to Dota 2 - Funny thing is that while Dota 2 is basically Dota 1, it does get easier on some accounts similar to BW to SC2. For example, Couriers are way easier to use now (you don't have to move your screen to the shop to buy, the shop button makes it easy to buy without even looking at the shop; plus, you don't have to manually move or share control of couriers anymore in Dota 2). This is akin to adding multiple building select in SC2 and adding auto mine in SC2 (to be fair, no big deal but Dota 2 is easier than Dota 1 due to the UI). Yep, the "should the interface be intentionally hard to use to raise the skill floor/ceiling?" argument. (Hipster Nerd time - Back in my day, there were no couriers. In fact, back in my day, I was playing tower defense all day instead of Dota.) On October 18 2012 14:38 MarCoon wrote: Ofc they will, that's what IceFrog does :o Well they did add new heroes to Dota last patch (Arc Warden and the Wyvern). IceFrog regularly adds new heroes (and of course since Dota 2 is basically Dota 1 with better UI, graphics, and sound, then Dota 2 will get new heroes too). Plus, the way Dota 2 releases new heroes is not actually based on when they were released in WC3 Dota. For example, a ton of heroes like Magnus (just released last 2 weeks ago), Centaur(not released yet), Medusa(not released yet), etc all came before a lot of the heroes currently in Dota 2 (Templar Assassin, Rubick, Meepo etc). (Those heroes I mentioned were from 5.0X dota, the latter heroes I mentioned were added or "readded" in 6.0x.) I wonder if that's why HotS needs actually. HotS doesn't change much. Should HotS change a lot with SC2? Sure they're trying to keep things the same but it seems SC2 (and RTS genre in general) stagnating. The Frozen Throne did a lot for WC3 and really revitalized WC3 (okay to be fair, I don't know anything about competitive scene pre TFT WC3, all I did was play tower defense games and 4v4). | ||
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