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Slayers to disband - Page 124

Forum Index > SC2 General
4170 CommentsPost a Reply
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Bashing of any sort will result in temp bans.
renaissanceMAN
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1840 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-18 15:11:06
October 18 2012 14:55 GMT
#2461
On October 18 2012 23:52 tylerf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 23:47 SeeKeR wrote:

She stated that "the current situation has devolved in to a dirty fight. I am disappointed that it has turned out like this. I really would wish the ESF organization would just admit to the mistakes they made against us and make a formal apology. If we look at all the things that the ESF organization members have responded with so far, it is clear that they are just blaming others and creating excuses rather than just apologizing. If this situation continues on, a lot of players could potentially end up getting hurt.


So she's willing to drag the players down with her in this administrative dispute. :/


It's kind of important though, and the players, whether they want to be or not, are involved; especially MMA/Crank.

I hope the ESF releases an official statement. I still don't know if Slayers deserve an apology but...

At this point, ESF needs to step up and at least acknowledge the fact that a lot of their decisions regarding Slayers lead to the collapse of this team. They want to promote esports, but allowing the situation to spiral out of control like this does nothing for the SC2 scene. I understand Slayers are not 100% innocent in this situation as well but the ESF needs to take the higher road and remain the more "professional" of the two organizations.
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
October 18 2012 14:58 GMT
#2462
On October 18 2012 22:29 Weirdkid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

Translated from http://s.163.com/12/1018/19/8E4DAQ2L00314D0E.html
Original article at http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13438&id=1315548

This is the first response of Coach Won, and it comes before the response of Kim Ga Yeon with the emails.

Bolding this because few people ever reads what's above the translations lol. I hope this is properly translated, but I've [bracketed] the parts which I am especially unsure of. I apologise if any parts are not properly translated, and please feel free to correct me on any part. Thank you.



Hello everyone. I am Won Jong Wook from ESports Federation. Firstly, I want to apologise for all the bad news.

1. NASL Related Matters

During NASL Season 2, it was the NASL side which requested a deposit, and a boycott arose as a result. They expressed that they couldn't trust the teams and players from Season 2 onwards, which is why the deposit for Season 2 was much higher than the deposit for Season 1. But at that time, when our players took part in tournaments like MLG and IPL, they were supported in terms of their expenses. Hence, if we allowed this action from NASL to just proceed, other tournaments might end up also using this system from NASL.

To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL.

During this negotiation process, we couldn't reach an agreement, and there were a lot of delays. In terms of the translation issue, we got the help of GomTV, and we even got an agent to help in the negotiations. But even after a long time, the negotiations couldn't come to a close.

But we still persevered in the negotiations, and while we were waiting for the response, Slayers and TSL went and took part in NASL Season 3. This produced some problems.

We were certainly putting in a lot of effort to get the best results from the negotiations with NASL, and of course, we weren't able to achieve a satisfactory result in the end, but I don't think it's right to deny that effort.

2. Taking part in NASL Season 3

After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams.

3. Restrictions on practising

Regarding the issue of taking part in NASL Season 3, the teams came up with the idea of everyone not helping them practise because Slayers and TSL ignored all the efforts the teams put in to try to protect the rights of the players. There is one thing I need to make clear, and that there wasn't any federation or ideas of an association at this point in time. We just occasionally have meetings of the head coaches where we'd raise our opinions and suggestions. Also, regarding the practise issue, we did communicate the decision to Slayers and TSL.

TSL immediately tried their best to dispel the misunderstandings of this incident, and explained their situation to all the teams, and decided after that to work together with everyone. [But with Slayers there wasn't a proper response, and there wasn't any requests for any discussions. The head coaches of all the teams were also hoping that they would give an explanation so they could have an explanation for their players.] As a result, we started putting in place the practice restrictions from 10 March to 27 March after NASL Season 3 ended.

Putting all the reasons aside, to put a restriction on the practising of the players was indeed a thoughtless act, and so on behalf of all the head coaches, I want to to sincerely apologise to everyone in Slayers

4. Practice issues afterwards

After the period of time mentioned above ended, the federation players were allowed practise freely with the Slayers players. The statement that we had restrictions on practising for 10 months is not true. From last year to this year, you can see the Slayers players saying that there were other players who were practising with them.

We think that practising with one another and training is a right that all teams have. Whether it's in the past or in the present, most of the teams mainly practise amongst themselves. Currently, the players would find other players to practise with them as an extension of the basic internal practice that they have within the team. This is the same for the Slayers players.

To take our team as an example, Parting, Life, and Hack etc. all frequently practise with the Slayers players. This part can be proven by the interviews, replays, match records of the players from the various teams.

5. Regarding the issue of ostracising

All our teams never once mentioned or agreed to ostracise Slayers. We certainly did not forbid our players from being friends with their players. Even though it's impossible for relationships to be good amongst all the teams, players would form good relationships because of taking part in foreign tournaments or practising on battlenet.

Regarding this, the fans of foreign tournaments and fans of eSports can get proof from the Starcraft 2 players. The federation, up till now, doesn't understand why they'd say we isolated them. From the start of the discussions, even though they didn't want to join us, we would often convey all sorts of important information to Slayers, and also frequently invite them to take part in the discussions amongst the head coaches. But it's Slayers which didn't accept these suggestions, and them which hold a lukewarm attitude towards us.

[Kim Ga Yeon once told me when we met at the coffee shop outside the KBS building at Yeouido that she still wanted to carry on her career as a celebrity, and that she'd be taking care of the team when Boxer was a playing coach. Furthermore, Coach Boxer (Still a player then) already mentioned getting rid of the team when he decided to give up being a player.] At the time when they said they wouldn't join the federation, they also said they wouldn't join any associations, but would continue standing on a neutral position.

Also, Kim Ga Yeon said that they never collected any transfer fees from the players. But I came to know from a few teams in the country, that when they were in discussions for the transfers, high prices were always demanded, and as a result it was always difficult to carry on with the discussions. The people in the industry all know this.

But Kim Ga Yeon insisted that she never did such a thing, and that they released their players without conditions and that it's for their players. The transfer fee is something which is transacted after proper negotiations by both parties, but Kim Ga Yeon always asks for really high prices. Doesn't that arise from one's own greed?

Furthermore, she said that she still keeps the negotiation details from 2 years ago, and is able to produce evidence at any time. This just makes people feel that she'd been intentionally preparing for such a day, and it just gives a bitter feeling.

[Because of this incident, what people are seeing is not just which head coach has problems with Slayers, but that everyone has a feud, and this is really disappointing.] The head coaches and the players for all the teams are all free regarding who they wish to be acquainted with, and this isn't something we can change. How can one command the hearts and minds of other people? I need to emphasize once again, that the federation never once instructed or encouraged the ostracising of Slayers.

We have feelings too. This string of events, especially regarding the restrictions towards practice, makes us feel really disappointed. To prevent something similar from happening again in the future, we will definitely be really careful.

For all these bad stuff, I apologise again. As the person involved in this incident, I want to present my deepest apologies to the fan on behalf of the teams.

[I hope that everyone can soothe their anger with an open mind], and continue supporting the players and teams of Starcraft 2.

Thank you.


Thanks a lot for translation Weirdkid. I am sorry for the harsh word but this coach is a total asshole.

TSL immediately tried their best to dispel the misunderstandings of this incident, and explained their situation to all the teams, and decided after that to work together with everyone.


What a euphemism! There were no "misunderstandings". There were two clear-cut differing opinions ("we want to go to NASL" - "we do not want to go to NASL") and one side was using blackmail to force through their opinion. A training boycott by the rest of the teams is nothing but the equivalent of a gun to the head for an Esports team. So TSL did not "try their best to dispel the misunderstandings", they simply gave in to the blackmail.

Slayers didn't and the result is almost too much painfully ironic to endure. First is that ESF tried to blackmail two organizations (Slayers, TSL) via boycotts into blackmailing another organization (NASL) via boycotts into giving them more money. Holy shit, those are nice business practices there. Worst is that the coach actually seems proud of it.
Second is that Jessica is called a drama queen when ESF is the one boycotting everything left and right that doesn't go as they like. Isn't boycotting the job of the so-called drama queen? Apparantly not. The drama queen decided to have non of that and just send their players to participate. And that is what hurts the most. Slayers was actually punished for helping to internationally promote SC2 and help Esports grow with their freaking own money. How is that ANY of ESF's business??? Yeah sure, they want more money, but who doesn't.
thexile
Profile Joined October 2010
8 Posts
October 18 2012 15:00 GMT
#2463
Coach won should step down.
Rexeus
Profile Joined October 2011
78 Posts
October 18 2012 15:00 GMT
#2464
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....
Ansinjunger
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2451 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-18 15:03:05
October 18 2012 15:01 GMT
#2465
On October 18 2012 23:41 TaKemE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 21:25 TeeTS wrote:
On October 18 2012 21:01 CodeskyE wrote:
On October 18 2012 20:57 TeeTS wrote:
On October 18 2012 20:43 CodeskyE wrote:
On October 18 2012 19:00 mongmong wrote:
On October 18 2012 18:33 Fionn wrote:
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=1315666&category=13438

New article that talks about Nazgul?




Basically Coach Won claimed that Jessica once demanded ridiculous amount of transfer fee for MMA from foreign

teams, to which Jessica disputed backed up with evidence.



http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=48819


this article clarifies that Jessica approached Nazgul by email and offered MMA to Team Liquid without ANY

transfer fee involved. But Nazgul declined because he had already planned on which players to recruit according

to the article 0_0




update the OP and put this information.


at this point, it's almost sure that jessica is telling the truth. she's providing evidences too.


so far, she's proved alicia and coach won wrong. if i was esf, either make a true statement or keep quiet and let this drama pass by slowly.




this offer is 1month old (dated on 5th of september 2012, see in the other post here). Even in Jessica's version of the story the eSF sanctions ended WAY before that. So it has absolutely nothing to do with this this issue and is only brought up to make eSF look bad in the eyes of uninformed people. She tries to destroy eSF and its teams as her final revenge. Her evidents are semi-truths, because they don't really have anything to do with the points her opposition brings up, but make them look like lyers. This is a really dirty game of Jessica and I hope people start to realise that. (even her "evidents" against Alicia were not entirely on point, You can argue that Alicia is spoiled and demands way to much, but Jessica's behavior here is way worse!)




Jessica tries to destroy ESF?

What are you on? SlayerS was the team apaprently that got destroyed by ESF politics.

ESF started this "dirty" game as you call it, but Jessica's going to finish the same "dirty" game.


Ok just for you we take a look at the timeline of this MMA issue, where coach Won mentioned Jessica demanding insane transfer fee's for MMA going to a foreign team and Jessica responding with this "offer" to TL.

The issues about MMA wanting to join a foreign team came up several weeks before GSTL season 2 finals. (remember he missed several GSTL matches in season 2 to his demotion to the B-Team.)

the GSTL season 2 finals took place on July 28th 2012
-> so the whole MMA may have taken place in late June - July
There MMA stated his will to join a foreign team.

Nothing happened though and MMA returned to be the starting player for Slayers in the finals. - It's really hard to think that no teams would be interested in a 2time GSL and multiple major foreign tournament champion. So it's way more possible that Slayers denied a switch - by demanding insane transfer fees perhaps? makes a lot of sense if you think about it!

then we know now that Jessica offered MMA for free to Team Liquid (in person of Nazgul) on September 5th 2012. more than a month later!
Even in Jessica's version of the story the eSF sanctions ended in June/July 2012. (While it's very doubtful that they lasted that long!).

So obviously Coach Won's statement regarding Slayers demanding to high transfer fees has nothing to do with either the offer to TL or the time it was made in!

So Jessica's evidence that Coach Won is lying is absolutely nullified by the timelime of events.

And so we have NO evidence right now, that coach Won is lying, BUT we have an approach by Jessica to make it look like.
Also Jessica seems very much prepared for everything her opposition may try to come up with.
!! This wouldn't be the case if she just wanted to substantiate why she disolved Slayers. !! - her fans would believe her anyways and she doesn't need to care about the rest in that regard!
So you have to think what's the reason for all this is...
Since there is no winner in this whole drama and everyone right now already lost a lot of credibility, everything points towards vengeance. Vengeance against the players that may or may not betrayed her and the "evil" eSF.
And everyone involved should be really careful now because this is going to cause MAJOR damage to the whole SC2 construct in Korea. And if this goes out of control it may bring the whole scene to collapse!


Why do you even make it look like that Jessica even has to prove that Coach Won is lying? Coach Won is the one who should show evidence to backup what his saying is true... it makes no sense to go the other way.


He cites evidence--their practice histories. Go check it if you're able.

However, Jessica did claim that SlayerS players helped federation players but not the other way around, but there are also interviews to check. So check SlayerS player interviews, plus the other way around as it's relevant.
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8240 Posts
October 18 2012 15:03 GMT
#2466
On October 18 2012 23:52 tylerf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 23:47 SeeKeR wrote:

She stated that "the current situation has devolved in to a dirty fight. I am disappointed that it has turned out like this. I really would wish the ESF organization would just admit to the mistakes they made against us and make a formal apology. If we look at all the things that the ESF organization members have responded with so far, it is clear that they are just blaming others and creating excuses rather than just apologizing. If this situation continues on, a lot of players could potentially end up getting hurt.


So she's willing to drag the players down with her in this administrative dispute. :/

Pretty much... I pretty much said this yesterday. It's a game of he said she said and right now, Jessica is saying things that will hurt not only her image, but the player's image as well. I'll be very surprised if any other teams wants to pick up any of soon to be ex-SlayerS players. At least in the near future.
loliologist
Profile Joined February 2012
Canada7 Posts
October 18 2012 15:05 GMT
#2467
I'm thinking sexism is at play here too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Korea is very patriarchal society. I mean women aren't forced into headscarves or anything like that but are generally kept from having power and the heads of families are the fathers, not the mothers. It seems to me that much of her authority wasn't respected because she's a woman. I wonder how this would have played out if Jessica was a man.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
October 18 2012 15:05 GMT
#2468
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
Show nested quote +
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
ownyah
Profile Joined April 2012
146 Posts
October 18 2012 15:06 GMT
#2469
On October 19 2012 00:05 loliologist wrote:
I'm thinking sexism is at play here too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Korea is very patriarchal society. I mean women aren't forced into headscarves or anything like that but are generally kept from having power and the heads of families are the fathers, not the mothers. It seems to me that much of her authority wasn't respected because she's a woman. I wonder how this would have played out if Jessica was a man.


The problems had begun far before Jessica came into control. The problems made boxer change team..
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
October 18 2012 15:06 GMT
#2470
On October 19 2012 00:05 loliologist wrote:
I'm thinking sexism is at play here too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Korea is very patriarchal society. I mean women aren't forced into headscarves or anything like that but are generally kept from having power and the heads of families are the fathers, not the mothers. It seems to me that much of her authority wasn't respected because she's a woman. I wonder how this would have played out if Jessica was a man.


There are a lot situations what you say is true, but it's hard to see that in this case.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
October 18 2012 15:08 GMT
#2471
Darkest day in Starcraft history
FlashDave.999 aka Star
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
October 18 2012 15:10 GMT
#2472
On October 18 2012 23:28 -Kyo- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 23:19 RainMore wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:13 ImNightmare wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:11 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:07 ImNightmare wrote:
Jessica going all out on esf, but to be honest, the fact that her own players are leaving and saying things about her just makes her arguments look fishy.

I mean, if we were to look at the current esf teams, they mostly have a few if none players leave the team while slayers is just a fuck load of mess now. I would say that tells a lot about the coach and managers, the fact that her own players leave her is just a sign that something is wrong with her. Just my opinion, but if its just one (MMA) then its fine, but now even alicia, crank speaking out against her just tells a lot.


What's most troubling is that she admitted that Ryung, her favorite member, lost faith in her as well.
Seems like the only person defending Jessica is Genius...who just joined the team barely 3 months?

Yeah... that is the main point for me actually. You can paint yourself as a mistress in distress and all that by slamming other teams, but if your own followers don't like you, something is wrong.


I think the main point should be that there was organized bullying (clearly admitted). It's possible that the people on the team felt she didn't do enough to protect them but it sounds like the only way to do that was to fold to all the ESF demands. Personally I think it's disgusting that a bunch of petty 'grownups' felt like such behavior, which was obviously going to affect the kids more than anything else, was okay. She may not be the best manager, she may be bitter or whatever you want to think, but I sure as hell am glad this crap is coming out and I hope there's some major backlash that causes such bullying to never happen again.


I'm going to repost my only post in this thread just to give people perspective on Asian culture. It seems as if too many people here are coming to conclusions without thinking in a culturally relative manner. This is quite important because while in America we assume it is just up to one person to man up, it could very well be everyone against a single person. And again, I'm not saying that is 100% the case, but as noted above, there was clearly some bullying and everyone seems to be admitting to at least that.

Original post:
+ Show Spoiler +
Understanding how Asian culture works, it is very probable that the majority of people dissuade others into believing a singularity is a problem rather than themselves. As a simple example of this, just think of Naniwa when he went to his first pro gamer house. He went and only practiced. He wanted to get as good as he possibly could. This pushed him further away from the very important socially dependent culture Korea has. Thus, when certain times were assigned to go out, Naniwa wasn't even told about them. He literally would be at the house all alone because of no communication, yet to everyone else, it seems as if it was Naniwa's fault for being bad mannered. His intentions were spot on, but culturally he just got shafted hard. (Note: I'm not saying this is "good" or "bad", just that it's how the majority of socially acceptable normalities are dictated in Asian areas.)

Because of this, I could very easily see Jessica being completely truthful yet still being unaccounted. The only basis they seem to have against her is that she simply would not cooperate with others outside of slayers because she thought it would be detrimental. Saying others are a detriment to your team could in turn cause issues.

With that said, it could be very possible that not everything is "exactly" as it happened as there is obviously underlying bias written in here that will be weeded out. But in contrast to what some may be saying, I think I'll side with Jessica for the majority of the points. For her to be able to professionally withhold this much of the information that came out in this post instead of slandering players, as the community makes her out to do, I can only have respect for her holding it in until now. Will there be some mucky things that may be released as rebuttals against her that have some weight? I assume so, but in the end I think she seems to have done the best she possibly could have with what she was given and yet it all still fell apart. Quite sad for me as I always held SlayerS up to being the ideal team. A top competitor, a legend creator, yet, a family.


With that being said, I think you could easily relate actions taken by people, such as Boxer, hand in hand with what Jessica has been saying. I do find it weird that out of the two Jessica is allowing herself to take all the hate for Boxer. Even when Boxer clearly had interactions with the players and was actually helping manage the team. It seems that after Boxer was hurt and stopped attending the team house things got even worse than they were. Where you start drawing the line at whose fault this really is I'll leave up to you. But at the very least I think there is some over arching problems with Manager J and the few players actually buying into what was said; so much so, that it started to affect the team in a major way.

Well I don't think a lot of people will say that Jessica did what she did because of bad will. But it seems to me that she was not capable of managing the team properly.

I'm nowhere in the position to give tips but it seems that sometimes your own personality has to step down for the greater good of the team. Her inability to resolve the NASL incident and now her demand on an excuse doesn't look very professional for me.

I said this earlier itt I'm also disappointed that Boxer didn't do something after it became clear she was incapable of handling the team. He should have known since he already founded a team which is very successful. I guess, internally, someone should realize it much much earlier when something is going terribly wrong.
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-18 15:21:30
October 18 2012 15:11 GMT
#2473
On October 19 2012 00:03 geokilla wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 23:52 tylerf wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:47 SeeKeR wrote:

She stated that "the current situation has devolved in to a dirty fight. I am disappointed that it has turned out like this. I really would wish the ESF organization would just admit to the mistakes they made against us and make a formal apology. If we look at all the things that the ESF organization members have responded with so far, it is clear that they are just blaming others and creating excuses rather than just apologizing. If this situation continues on, a lot of players could potentially end up getting hurt.


So she's willing to drag the players down with her in this administrative dispute. :/

Pretty much... I pretty much said this yesterday. It's a game of he said she said and right now, Jessica is saying things that will hurt not only her image, but the player's image as well. I'll be very surprised if any other teams wants to pick up any of soon to be ex-SlayerS players. At least in the near future.


Jessica was able to provide proof against any attack (Alicia, "MMA so expensive").
And if the SlayerS players fucked up (like Alicia) I think it's important that it goes public - even if that means that player's image will be damaged. It's his own fault when he fucked up, he has to live with the consequences of his actions.

lambac0re
Profile Joined August 2011
United States77 Posts
October 18 2012 15:13 GMT
#2474
On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.

Whine about being treated differently? Is refusing to join esf grounds for bullying and practice embargos? This is almost like extortion, join us, obey us, or we will hit you where it hurts.
Woizit
Profile Joined June 2011
801 Posts
October 18 2012 15:13 GMT
#2475
On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.


It is also true that they claimed they did not want to be like Kespa, yet they ended with this.
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
October 18 2012 15:13 GMT
#2476
On October 18 2012 23:58 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 22:29 Weirdkid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

Translated from http://s.163.com/12/1018/19/8E4DAQ2L00314D0E.html
Original article at http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13438&id=1315548

This is the first response of Coach Won, and it comes before the response of Kim Ga Yeon with the emails.

Bolding this because few people ever reads what's above the translations lol. I hope this is properly translated, but I've [bracketed] the parts which I am especially unsure of. I apologise if any parts are not properly translated, and please feel free to correct me on any part. Thank you.



Hello everyone. I am Won Jong Wook from ESports Federation. Firstly, I want to apologise for all the bad news.

1. NASL Related Matters

During NASL Season 2, it was the NASL side which requested a deposit, and a boycott arose as a result. They expressed that they couldn't trust the teams and players from Season 2 onwards, which is why the deposit for Season 2 was much higher than the deposit for Season 1. But at that time, when our players took part in tournaments like MLG and IPL, they were supported in terms of their expenses. Hence, if we allowed this action from NASL to just proceed, other tournaments might end up also using this system from NASL.

To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL.

During this negotiation process, we couldn't reach an agreement, and there were a lot of delays. In terms of the translation issue, we got the help of GomTV, and we even got an agent to help in the negotiations. But even after a long time, the negotiations couldn't come to a close.

But we still persevered in the negotiations, and while we were waiting for the response, Slayers and TSL went and took part in NASL Season 3. This produced some problems.

We were certainly putting in a lot of effort to get the best results from the negotiations with NASL, and of course, we weren't able to achieve a satisfactory result in the end, but I don't think it's right to deny that effort.

2. Taking part in NASL Season 3

After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams.

3. Restrictions on practising

Regarding the issue of taking part in NASL Season 3, the teams came up with the idea of everyone not helping them practise because Slayers and TSL ignored all the efforts the teams put in to try to protect the rights of the players. There is one thing I need to make clear, and that there wasn't any federation or ideas of an association at this point in time. We just occasionally have meetings of the head coaches where we'd raise our opinions and suggestions. Also, regarding the practise issue, we did communicate the decision to Slayers and TSL.

TSL immediately tried their best to dispel the misunderstandings of this incident, and explained their situation to all the teams, and decided after that to work together with everyone. [But with Slayers there wasn't a proper response, and there wasn't any requests for any discussions. The head coaches of all the teams were also hoping that they would give an explanation so they could have an explanation for their players.] As a result, we started putting in place the practice restrictions from 10 March to 27 March after NASL Season 3 ended.

Putting all the reasons aside, to put a restriction on the practising of the players was indeed a thoughtless act, and so on behalf of all the head coaches, I want to to sincerely apologise to everyone in Slayers

4. Practice issues afterwards

After the period of time mentioned above ended, the federation players were allowed practise freely with the Slayers players. The statement that we had restrictions on practising for 10 months is not true. From last year to this year, you can see the Slayers players saying that there were other players who were practising with them.

We think that practising with one another and training is a right that all teams have. Whether it's in the past or in the present, most of the teams mainly practise amongst themselves. Currently, the players would find other players to practise with them as an extension of the basic internal practice that they have within the team. This is the same for the Slayers players.

To take our team as an example, Parting, Life, and Hack etc. all frequently practise with the Slayers players. This part can be proven by the interviews, replays, match records of the players from the various teams.

5. Regarding the issue of ostracising

All our teams never once mentioned or agreed to ostracise Slayers. We certainly did not forbid our players from being friends with their players. Even though it's impossible for relationships to be good amongst all the teams, players would form good relationships because of taking part in foreign tournaments or practising on battlenet.

Regarding this, the fans of foreign tournaments and fans of eSports can get proof from the Starcraft 2 players. The federation, up till now, doesn't understand why they'd say we isolated them. From the start of the discussions, even though they didn't want to join us, we would often convey all sorts of important information to Slayers, and also frequently invite them to take part in the discussions amongst the head coaches. But it's Slayers which didn't accept these suggestions, and them which hold a lukewarm attitude towards us.

[Kim Ga Yeon once told me when we met at the coffee shop outside the KBS building at Yeouido that she still wanted to carry on her career as a celebrity, and that she'd be taking care of the team when Boxer was a playing coach. Furthermore, Coach Boxer (Still a player then) already mentioned getting rid of the team when he decided to give up being a player.] At the time when they said they wouldn't join the federation, they also said they wouldn't join any associations, but would continue standing on a neutral position.

Also, Kim Ga Yeon said that they never collected any transfer fees from the players. But I came to know from a few teams in the country, that when they were in discussions for the transfers, high prices were always demanded, and as a result it was always difficult to carry on with the discussions. The people in the industry all know this.

But Kim Ga Yeon insisted that she never did such a thing, and that they released their players without conditions and that it's for their players. The transfer fee is something which is transacted after proper negotiations by both parties, but Kim Ga Yeon always asks for really high prices. Doesn't that arise from one's own greed?

Furthermore, she said that she still keeps the negotiation details from 2 years ago, and is able to produce evidence at any time. This just makes people feel that she'd been intentionally preparing for such a day, and it just gives a bitter feeling.

[Because of this incident, what people are seeing is not just which head coach has problems with Slayers, but that everyone has a feud, and this is really disappointing.] The head coaches and the players for all the teams are all free regarding who they wish to be acquainted with, and this isn't something we can change. How can one command the hearts and minds of other people? I need to emphasize once again, that the federation never once instructed or encouraged the ostracising of Slayers.

We have feelings too. This string of events, especially regarding the restrictions towards practice, makes us feel really disappointed. To prevent something similar from happening again in the future, we will definitely be really careful.

For all these bad stuff, I apologise again. As the person involved in this incident, I want to present my deepest apologies to the fan on behalf of the teams.

[I hope that everyone can soothe their anger with an open mind], and continue supporting the players and teams of Starcraft 2.

Thank you.


Thanks a lot for translation Weirdkid. I am sorry for the harsh word but this coach is a total asshole.

Show nested quote +
TSL immediately tried their best to dispel the misunderstandings of this incident, and explained their situation to all the teams, and decided after that to work together with everyone.


What a euphemism! There were no "misunderstandings". There were two clear-cut differing opinions ("we want to go to NASL" - "we do not want to go to NASL") and one side was using blackmail to force through their opinion. A training boycott by the rest of the teams is nothing but the equivalent of a gun to the head for an Esports team. So TSL did not "try their best to dispel the misunderstandings", they simply gave in to the blackmail.

Slayers didn't and the result is almost too much painfully ironic to endure. First is that ESF tried to blackmail two organizations (Slayers, TSL) via boycotts into blackmailing another organization (NASL) via boycotts into giving them more money. Holy shit, those are nice business practices there. Worst is that the coach actually seems proud of it.
Second is that Jessica is called a drama queen when ESF is the one boycotting everything left and right that doesn't go as they like. Isn't boycotting the job of the so-called drama queen? Apparantly not. The drama queen decided to have non of that and just send their players to participate. And that is what hurts the most. Slayers was actually punished for helping to internationally promote SC2 and help Esports grow with their freaking own money. How is that ANY of ESF's business??? Yeah sure, they want more money, but who doesn't.


you seem to have no clue of how this world goes. The teams (at that time even more in financial problems than now) wanted to make a clear point, that they don't accept the conditions demanded by NASL and wanted to prevent other tournament organisers from doing the same. Therefor they made an agreement WITH Slayers and TSL to not participate in NASL. Slayers and TSL broke that agreement and participated and therefor the other teams wanted to punish them. And now they basically didn't see any other way than that. And here is the point to blame them, but only here. The way of the punishment was wrong. And the eSF teams came quickly to the same oppinion since it lasted only for about 2 weeks. 2weeks without out-team practice don't destroy any team! After that it was up to every single player on its own who he practices with and, as Ace stated, there is a lot playing into the choice of practice partners for every player, not only friendship.
Basically Slayers broke an agreement, eSF took wrong consequences but recognized it early and stepped back. That Slayers allways stood aside from every other korean team can't be coincidence. It's not just Star Tale with Coach Won, it's every single eSF team. they didn't took part in KSL back in late 2011, when Slayers definately had their very high. And they never seemed to work together with the other teams, even when Kespa entered the scene, they never wanted to stay together, no they even feeded Kespa with coaches. (Jessica heavily encouraged both Boxer and Clide to go to a Kespa team as a coach.) It's of course their right to do so, but they can't expect to be liked among the other eSF teams with that kind of behavior.
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8240 Posts
October 18 2012 15:14 GMT
#2477
On October 19 2012 00:11 Zocat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:03 geokilla wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:52 tylerf wrote:
On October 18 2012 23:47 SeeKeR wrote:

She stated that "the current situation has devolved in to a dirty fight. I am disappointed that it has turned out like this. I really would wish the ESF organization would just admit to the mistakes they made against us and make a formal apology. If we look at all the things that the ESF organization members have responded with so far, it is clear that they are just blaming others and creating excuses rather than just apologizing. If this situation continues on, a lot of players could potentially end up getting hurt.


So she's willing to drag the players down with her in this administrative dispute. :/

Pretty much... I pretty much said this yesterday. It's a game of he said she said and right now, Jessica is saying things that will hurt not only her image, but the player's image as well. I'll be very surprised if any other teams wants to pick up any of soon to be ex-SlayerS players. At least in the near future.


Jessica was able to provide proof against any attack (Alicia, "MMA so expensive").
And if the SlayerS players fucked up (like Alicia) I think it's important that it goes public - even if that means that player's image will be damaged. It's his own fault when he fucked up, he has to live with the consequences of his actions.

Since when is Twitter considered evidence? I don't consider it evidence... I mentioned before that Twitter is just that. Twitter. People can message me and I won't get it or see it till later on, or ever see it at all.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
October 18 2012 15:15 GMT
#2478
On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.


That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot.
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
October 18 2012 15:18 GMT
#2479
On October 19 2012 00:13 lambac0re wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.

Whine about being treated differently? Is refusing to join esf grounds for bullying and practice embargos? This is almost like extortion, join us, obey us, or we will hit you where it hurts.

It seems this could have been handled much much better. Being right and getting what you deserve are two different things. It should be clear that angering esF aka: all the other teams can't go without consequences. She took a decision and couldn't protect her players from the consequences. Life sucks, maybe better safe than sorry.
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
renaissanceMAN
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1840 Posts
October 18 2012 15:18 GMT
#2480
On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."


This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules?

I guess they are just trying to make another kespa....


It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities.


That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot.


Have to agree with this.

Slayers didn't want anything from ESF except to practice with their players (which is not very demanding...).
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
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