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Bashing of any sort will result in temp bans. |
On October 19 2012 00:30 lambac0re wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:24 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:21 Woizit wrote:On October 19 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."
This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules? I guess they are just trying to make another kespa.... It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities. That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot. You forget that there WAS an agreement! Even Jessica admitted it. Slayers broke that agreement without telling anyone about it. A lot of it comes down to bad communication. But I think Jessica/Slayers just weren't afraid of any consequences from the other teams... You might also want to consider this. "After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun" ESF never managed to successfully negotiate an alternative for Slayers. Yeah, so everything should remain as it was, which in that case would be no participation. But Slayers had the oppinion that they would benefit more if they participated. But they never communicated that towards the other teams in a proper manner, they only looked at themselves. I my oppinion that behavior has to be called selfish. I don't follow this logic at all. Slayers wanted to participate, esf did not. Where does it say that slayers can't participate if no agreement is reached? IF an agreement had been reached to not participate and slayers had broken that agreement, you would have a case. In this case where no agreement was reached, nobody has any right to enforce slayers whether they participate or not let alone punish them with sanctions.
Jessica:
"When NASL Season 2 began, there was another movement for a boycott, and SlayerS was asked to join. We decided to join the boycott, thinking that we could get a good result regarding the NASL deposit policy which we thought was unfair." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
Coach Won:
"To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL."
(From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
There WAS an agreement and it was broken without any further communications between the teams by Slayers and TSL
"After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
"When NASL Season 3 started, we were put in a dilemma again. We boycotted season two, but didn't gain anything, so I told our players to participate, and paid the deposits." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
You don't even need to rely only on the statement of Coach Won. Just take all parallels and you see that eSF Teams were right to punish Slayers but just didn't find the proper way. But this punishment (the embargo) was canceled very fast. (See Coach Won Interview and Ace's clarifications).
I don't see any reason why Jessica should be right in that regard.
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really disappointed with ESF and MMA and some other players.
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On October 19 2012 00:48 a176 wrote:
Considering esf's general attitude during the whole kespa situation, I'm actually inclined to believe jessica despite her obvious emotionally-charged comments.
I think Jessica has the base right at least, if not details (ESF related issues).
But I also see most of them as issues you get when you run a business with money / livelihood is on the line. Slayers seems to be incapable of making sound business decisions. I'm not sure that Slayers are "wrong", but they are certainly not professional, which is a big problem when you are doing business.
Same thing with players. You either have a personal relationship with them or a professional relationship. If you want to have a personal relationship, then you care for them and support them like families do, and not throwing them in front of a bus when going get tough. If you want your players to act professionally, then you need to treat them professionally as well.
Basically Slayers is like most of the startups out there, coming in with loads of talent, but have absolutely no idea how to survive in a business world, got chewed up and spitted out.
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On October 19 2012 00:29 ImNightmare wrote:
If slasher is saying the truth, then Jessica is just trying to white knight herself and is bullshitting about the MMA issue.
I really love how you wrote that, despite whatever your intent is ^^
On the thread issue, I don't think many slayers players will be really affected except maybe some b teamers.
Talking and speeches come and go, I don't think there's not even a team who wouldn't get real talent who is in need for a sponsor.
Jessica has always been very vocal about anything and already proved not to be really able to manage to keep her temper down, but she doesn't seem a bad person.
Nor the players, truth to be told.
Sad thing that despite whoever may be wrong, everyone is going to lose somehow.
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On October 17 2012 21:34 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Wow this really sucks. Not the way I was hoping to see it go. Can someone explain some of the "incidents"? I'm not really up to date on all the ESPORTS drama.
i HAAAAAAAAAAAATE to say this, i really do, i LOVE games that require skill to play, many people dont, but im gonna say it regardless. Starcraft 2 is dying as a game and as a sport. Soon LoL will be the new dominating e-sport because its so ez to play and people sadly nowadays DONT like challenges -.-; If you see the crowd from the previous dreamhacks and then from this year, you can see the population slowly diminishing. Then go look at LoL previous tournaments, small, but then in the end ENORMOUS crowds. Sadly the BLizzard CEO is too preocupied on money to realize whats going on. This is my take on things. LoL a new game came out and announced it was like DOTA, people needed a change from dota so they tried it out, best part? FREE and that was a BOLD and RISKY move but it paid out because since people will see its free they dont have to fear spending money on a game they dont like. Second, after only a couple months of the game, LoL announced 1million$ prize for this LoL SUPER tournament, another BOLD move, since LoL is F2P(free to play), they ahve no guarantee that they can make back that money, but they bet on it anyways. They knew they had competition from SC2 at the time, holding the biggest esports tournaments with the biggest prize pool. They had to take dominance in the scene, and sadly Blizzard wasnt up to the challenge. People might ask; but its not blizz's fault because of the prize pool! You are correct untill a certain degree, LoL didnt ahve very many sponsors and all the LoL teams were home made group of friends that decided to make a team, it was up to the company itself to help it grow, and the company did, it made this HUGE announcement that even sc2 PROs had too see what was going on. Front page of ANY internet related news, they made BIG bucks from ads and gained very many sponsors on the way. Thats why when i tuned in the other day (btw I HATE LOL, full of kids typing furiously at their keyboards asking whats your ELO noob and stuff like that) i was sad to see over 200,000 viewers online, if you add all the current streams and viewers of sc2, you wouldnt even get to 10,000. Only when idra and stephano are online, sadly nowadays noone watches even idra anymore, his max before was at around 25k and stephanos at 30k, now its barely at 5k for each. Whats more, when the camera panned around to the crowd, the stadium actually FILLED up! There wasnt ONE empty seat there, not ONE. When i remember sc2 Eu finals at the erricson globe, it was pretty pathertic, only the front row seats were occupied and the rest was deserted. Im sad to conclude, that UNLESS Blizzards CEO CFO ect ect grow some BIG cojones and say, we will risk it for the biscuit! announce a HUGE prize for fFIRST PLACE not pool, something that could top LoL, THEN i KNOW people will regain interest.
RIP Starcraft2, you died too young,
RIP Starcraft, and Starcraft: Brood War, you need not have died, for you are now sorely missed 
"BTW mods PLEASE dont ban this post, im trying to help starcraft2, not spam, raise awareness and not feed hate. ♥
User was temp banned for this post.
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Holy crap you probably deserve to be banned just for that nasty block of unreadable text...
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On October 19 2012 00:58 Diabulus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 21:34 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Wow this really sucks. Not the way I was hoping to see it go. Can someone explain some of the "incidents"? I'm not really up to date on all the ESPORTS drama. i HAAAAAAAAAAAATE to say this, i really do, i LOVE games that require skill to play, many people dont, but im gonna say it regardless. Starcraft 2 is dying as a game and as a sport. Soon LoL will be the new dominating e-sport because its so ez to play and people sadly nowadays DONT like challenges -.-; If you see the crowd from the previous dreamhacks and then from this year, you can see the population slowly diminishing. Then go look at LoL previous tournaments, small, but then in the end ENORMOUS crowds. Sadly the BLizzard CEO is too preocupied on money to realize whats going on. This is my take on things. LoL a new game came out and announced it was like DOTA, people needed a change from dota so they tried it out, best part? FREE and that was a BOLD and RISKY move but it paid out because since people will see its free they dont have to fear spending money on a game they dont like. Second, after only a couple months of the game, LoL announced 1million$ prize for this LoL SUPER tournament, another BOLD move, since LoL is F2P(free to play), they ahve no guarantee that they can make back that money, but they bet on it anyways. They knew they had competition from SC2 at the time, holding the biggest esports tournaments with the biggest prize pool. They had to take dominance in the scene, and sadly Blizzard wasnt up to the challenge. People might ask; but its not blizz's fault because of the prize pool! You are correct untill a certain degree, LoL didnt ahve very many sponsors and all the LoL teams were home made group of friends that decided to make a team, it was up to the company itself to help it grow, and the company did, it made this HUGE announcement that even sc2 PROs had too see what was going on. Front page of ANY internet related news, they made BIG bucks from ads and gained very many sponsors on the way. Thats why when i tuned in the other day (btw I HATE LOL, full of kids typing furiously at their keyboards asking whats your ELO noob and stuff like that) i was sad to see over 200,000 viewers online, if you add all the current streams and viewers of sc2, you wouldnt even get to 10,000. Only when idra and stephano are online, sadly nowadays noone watches even idra anymore, his max before was at around 25k and stephanos at 30k, now its barely at 5k for each. Whats more, when the camera panned around to the crowd, the stadium actually FILLED up! There wasnt ONE empty seat there, not ONE. When i remember sc2 Eu finals at the erricson globe, it was pretty pathertic, only the front row seats were occupied and the rest was deserted. Im sad to conclude, that UNLESS Blizzards CEO CFO ect ect grow some BIG cojones and say, we will risk it for the biscuit! announce a HUGE prize for fFIRST PLACE not pool, something that could top LoL, THEN i KNOW people will regain interest. RIP Starcraft2, you died too young, RIP Starcraft, and Starcraft: Brood War, you need not have died, for you are now sorely missed "BTW mods PLEASE dont ban this post, im trying to help starcraft2, not spam, raise awareness and not feed hate. ♥
Why the hell did you say this after quoting that specific post? You didn't answer his question at all -__-;;. Also, don't martyr
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On October 19 2012 00:57 MavivaM wrote:I really love how you wrote that, despite whatever your intent is ^^ On the thread issue, I don't think many slayers players will be really affected except maybe some b teamers. Talking and speeches come and go, I don't think there's not even a team who wouldn't get real talent who is in need for a sponsor. Jessica has always been very vocal about anything and already proved not to be really able to manage to keep her temper down, but she doesn't seem a bad person. Nor the players, truth to be told. Sad thing that despite whoever may be wrong, everyone is going to lose somehow.
You seem to think I have an intention and I do. I am keeping this conversation going by discussing issues that relate to the topic, problem?
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all of this drama is really killing sc2... instead of working to build up the scene, esf and slayers were engaged in a feud which ended up killing a sc2 team in a time where teams are seeming to be dying left and right.
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On October 19 2012 01:06 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:57 MavivaM wrote:I really love how you wrote that, despite whatever your intent is ^^ On the thread issue, I don't think many slayers players will be really affected except maybe some b teamers. Talking and speeches come and go, I don't think there's not even a team who wouldn't get real talent who is in need for a sponsor. Jessica has always been very vocal about anything and already proved not to be really able to manage to keep her temper down, but she doesn't seem a bad person. Nor the players, truth to be told. Sad thing that despite whoever may be wrong, everyone is going to lose somehow. You seem to think I have an intention and I do. I am keeping this conversation going by discussing issues that relate to the topic, problem?
Absolutely no.
You brought up my daily smile 
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On October 19 2012 00:51 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:30 lambac0re wrote:On October 19 2012 00:24 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:21 Woizit wrote:On October 19 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."
This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules? I guess they are just trying to make another kespa.... It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities. That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot. You forget that there WAS an agreement! Even Jessica admitted it. Slayers broke that agreement without telling anyone about it. A lot of it comes down to bad communication. But I think Jessica/Slayers just weren't afraid of any consequences from the other teams... You might also want to consider this. "After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun" ESF never managed to successfully negotiate an alternative for Slayers. Yeah, so everything should remain as it was, which in that case would be no participation. But Slayers had the oppinion that they would benefit more if they participated. But they never communicated that towards the other teams in a proper manner, they only looked at themselves. I my oppinion that behavior has to be called selfish. I don't follow this logic at all. Slayers wanted to participate, esf did not. Where does it say that slayers can't participate if no agreement is reached? IF an agreement had been reached to not participate and slayers had broken that agreement, you would have a case. In this case where no agreement was reached, nobody has any right to enforce slayers whether they participate or not let alone punish them with sanctions. + Show Spoiler +
Jessica:
"When NASL Season 2 began, there was another movement for a boycott, and SlayerS was asked to join. We decided to join the boycott, thinking that we could get a good result regarding the NASL deposit policy which we thought was unfair." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
Coach Won:
"To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL."
(From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
There WAS an agreement and it was broken without any further communications between the teams by Slayers and TSL + Show Spoiler +
"After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
"When NASL Season 3 started, we were put in a dilemma again. We boycotted season two, but didn't gain anything, so I told our players to participate, and paid the deposits." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
You don't even need to rely only on the statement of Coach Won. Just take all parallels and you see that eSF Teams were right to punish Slayers but just didn't find the proper way. But this punishment (the embargo) was canceled very fast. (See Coach Won Interview and Ace's clarifications).
I don't see any reason why Jessica should be right in that regard.
I like how you deliberately dont mention the following paragraph:
"Mr. Won promised that S2con and GomTV would take care of it and get what was needed, and we did not participate in NASL Season 2. However, nothing was gained. I asked Mr. Won whether they tried to talk to NASL at all, to show me the e-mails that went back and forth, but he there wasn't anything of the sort."
And then claim that "no further communication happened"
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On October 19 2012 01:11 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:06 ImNightmare wrote:On October 19 2012 00:57 MavivaM wrote:I really love how you wrote that, despite whatever your intent is ^^ On the thread issue, I don't think many slayers players will be really affected except maybe some b teamers. Talking and speeches come and go, I don't think there's not even a team who wouldn't get real talent who is in need for a sponsor. Jessica has always been very vocal about anything and already proved not to be really able to manage to keep her temper down, but she doesn't seem a bad person. Nor the players, truth to be told. Sad thing that despite whoever may be wrong, everyone is going to lose somehow. You seem to think I have an intention and I do. I am keeping this conversation going by discussing issues that relate to the topic, problem? Absolutely no. You brought up my daily smile
And you brought up my daily smirk. GG <3
Back on topic, hope there will be a MMA explanation. I think that would solve lots of things.
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Sad to read this. Good luck to the players, Jessica and Boxer in the future.
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On October 19 2012 01:12 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:51 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:30 lambac0re wrote:On October 19 2012 00:24 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:21 Woizit wrote:On October 19 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."
This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules? I guess they are just trying to make another kespa.... It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities. That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot. You forget that there WAS an agreement! Even Jessica admitted it. Slayers broke that agreement without telling anyone about it. A lot of it comes down to bad communication. But I think Jessica/Slayers just weren't afraid of any consequences from the other teams... You might also want to consider this. "After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun" ESF never managed to successfully negotiate an alternative for Slayers. Yeah, so everything should remain as it was, which in that case would be no participation. But Slayers had the oppinion that they would benefit more if they participated. But they never communicated that towards the other teams in a proper manner, they only looked at themselves. I my oppinion that behavior has to be called selfish. I don't follow this logic at all. Slayers wanted to participate, esf did not. Where does it say that slayers can't participate if no agreement is reached? IF an agreement had been reached to not participate and slayers had broken that agreement, you would have a case. In this case where no agreement was reached, nobody has any right to enforce slayers whether they participate or not let alone punish them with sanctions. + Show Spoiler +
Jessica:
"When NASL Season 2 began, there was another movement for a boycott, and SlayerS was asked to join. We decided to join the boycott, thinking that we could get a good result regarding the NASL deposit policy which we thought was unfair." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
Coach Won:
"To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL."
(From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
There WAS an agreement and it was broken without any further communications between the teams by Slayers and TSL + Show Spoiler +
"After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
"When NASL Season 3 started, we were put in a dilemma again. We boycotted season two, but didn't gain anything, so I told our players to participate, and paid the deposits." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
You don't even need to rely only on the statement of Coach Won. Just take all parallels and you see that eSF Teams were right to punish Slayers but just didn't find the proper way. But this punishment (the embargo) was canceled very fast. (See Coach Won Interview and Ace's clarifications).
I don't see any reason why Jessica should be right in that regard.
I like how you deliberately dont mention the following paragraph: "Mr. Won promised that S2con and GomTV would take care of it and get what was needed, and we did not participate in NASL Season 2. However, nothing was gained. I asked Mr. Won whether they tried to talk to NASL at all, to show me the e-mails that went back and forth, but he there wasn't anything of the sort." And then claim that "no further communication happened"
I have no idea if communication happened or not, but want to point out that "no communication" is a valid and extremely common negotiation tactic. It's basically a stare contest to see who hurt more and blink first. Slayers and TSL would undermine such a tactic and ESF's negotiation leverage if that's the case.
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On October 19 2012 01:10 amazingoopah wrote:
all of this drama is really killing sc2... instead of working to build up the scene, esf and slayers were engaged in a feud which ended up killing a sc2 team in a time where teams are seeming to be dying left and right.
This is the particular reason why I'm upset with the ESF right now. I understand that Slayers did not do a whole lot to rectify the situation on their end, and they did behave rather badly, but if the ESF's goal is to promote SC2 and foster growth in Korea and internationally, they really, REALLY dropped the ball on this one.
Even if Slayers was not a part of the ESF the fact that the ESF admitted to blacklisting them for a period of time, and constantly leaning on them to either "join or die," shows that they are more interested in controlling their power and building their own internal structure than actually caring about SC2.
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On October 19 2012 00:51 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:30 lambac0re wrote:On October 19 2012 00:24 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:21 Woizit wrote:On October 19 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."
This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules? I guess they are just trying to make another kespa.... It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities. That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot. You forget that there WAS an agreement! Even Jessica admitted it. Slayers broke that agreement without telling anyone about it. A lot of it comes down to bad communication. But I think Jessica/Slayers just weren't afraid of any consequences from the other teams... You might also want to consider this. "After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun" ESF never managed to successfully negotiate an alternative for Slayers. Yeah, so everything should remain as it was, which in that case would be no participation. But Slayers had the oppinion that they would benefit more if they participated. But they never communicated that towards the other teams in a proper manner, they only looked at themselves. I my oppinion that behavior has to be called selfish. I don't follow this logic at all. Slayers wanted to participate, esf did not. Where does it say that slayers can't participate if no agreement is reached? IF an agreement had been reached to not participate and slayers had broken that agreement, you would have a case. In this case where no agreement was reached, nobody has any right to enforce slayers whether they participate or not let alone punish them with sanctions. Jessica: " When NASL Season 2 began, there was another movement for a boycott, and SlayerS was asked to join. We decided to join the boycott, thinking that we could get a good result regarding the NASL deposit policy which we thought was unfair." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits) Coach Won: " To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread) There WAS an agreement and it was broken without any further communications between the teams by Slayers and TSL " After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread) " When NASL Season 3 started, we were put in a dilemma again. We boycotted season two, but didn't gain anything, so I told our players to participate, and paid the deposits." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits) You don't even need to rely only on the statement of Coach Won. Just take all parallels and you see that eSF Teams were right to punish Slayers but just didn't find the proper way. But this punishment (the embargo) was canceled very fast. (See Coach Won Interview and Ace's clarifications). I don't see any reason why Jessica should be right in that regard.
sc2con dissolved before NASL3 even started and they even banned TSL from it before that, SlayerS was never officially represented in sc2con. whatever "agreement" they had, it had obviously expired after NASL2.
It seems clear from your quotes that there was no agreement, only some teams expressing their intentions.
Also iirc NASL3 already offered to pay for travel and accommodations for the grandfinals, which was one of the conditions the korean teams demanded, not to mention that every match in the league had a prize money associated with it. Why would they still want to boycott?
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On October 19 2012 01:12 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:51 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:30 lambac0re wrote:On October 19 2012 00:24 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:21 Woizit wrote:On October 19 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:On October 19 2012 00:15 Fenrax wrote:On October 19 2012 00:05 ragz_gt wrote:On October 19 2012 00:00 Rexeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
"If we really wanted to ostracize SlayerS, we could have excluded them very thoroughly, but that's not the case at all. Instead, we did a lot together, and worked to treat them the same as other teams even though they were not part of the federation... ...there was a time where [players were] ordered not to practice [with SlayerS players], but it was only for a short period. There is no ban now. At the time, SlayerS kept acting selfishly, so the teams had no choice but to cooperate and penalize them."
This response is ridiculous. From Jessica point of view, SlayerS is never part of the esF and its not like Jessica did not try to cooperate with them (they pulled out of NASL season 2). So how are they acting selfishly? Anyone that doesn't follow instructions from the esF is selfish? Or are they trying to force everyone to follow their rules? I guess they are just trying to make another kespa.... It's also true that ESF have the power to decide they want to practice with. It's the sort of things federation / association / whateveryouwantcallit designed to regulate. While it's a pretty dirty tactic, Slayers basically doesn't want be in the federation and whines about being treated differently. You can't have it both ways, asking for benefit / protection while not wanting any regulation / responsibilities. That is just bullshit. Slayers never asked for any benefit or protection by ESF. Not getting boycotted and blackmailed is hardly a benefit. They just wanted to participate in a foreign tournament with their own money, that was the only problem here because ESF had a different opinion and - like Kespa - does not tolerate such things. To think I had hopes that ESF was any better than Kespa... I am an idiot. You forget that there WAS an agreement! Even Jessica admitted it. Slayers broke that agreement without telling anyone about it. A lot of it comes down to bad communication. But I think Jessica/Slayers just weren't afraid of any consequences from the other teams... You might also want to consider this. "After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun" ESF never managed to successfully negotiate an alternative for Slayers. Yeah, so everything should remain as it was, which in that case would be no participation. But Slayers had the oppinion that they would benefit more if they participated. But they never communicated that towards the other teams in a proper manner, they only looked at themselves. I my oppinion that behavior has to be called selfish. I don't follow this logic at all. Slayers wanted to participate, esf did not. Where does it say that slayers can't participate if no agreement is reached? IF an agreement had been reached to not participate and slayers had broken that agreement, you would have a case. In this case where no agreement was reached, nobody has any right to enforce slayers whether they participate or not let alone punish them with sanctions. + Show Spoiler +
Jessica:
"When NASL Season 2 began, there was another movement for a boycott, and SlayerS was asked to join. We decided to join the boycott, thinking that we could get a good result regarding the NASL deposit policy which we thought was unfair." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
Coach Won:
"To protect the rights and interest of our players, we gathered all the head coaches for a meeting, and decided not to take part in NASL, which required all the players to submit a 500 USD deposit. To be more detailed, if NASL did not remove this requirement of a deposit, and treat players better, we will not take part. This decision was approved by all the teams, including Slayers, and after that, we've been working hard to work and negotiate with NASL."
(From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
There WAS an agreement and it was broken without any further communications between the teams by Slayers and TSL + Show Spoiler +
"After several failed negotiations with NASL, the qualifiers of NASL Season 3 begun. Most of the teams were still expressing that they'd wait for the other party to guarantee the rights of the players before they would take part. But in spite of this effort from many of the teams, Slayers and TSL suddenly decided to take part in the tournament without discussing it with us. Afterwards, I got to know about it, and I expressed my disappointment at the actions of the two teams." (From the Coach Won Interview on page 122 of this thread)
"When NASL Season 3 started, we were put in a dilemma again. We boycotted season two, but didn't gain anything, so I told our players to participate, and paid the deposits." (From Jessicas initial statement (mod approved version), paragraph NASL Deposits)
You don't even need to rely only on the statement of Coach Won. Just take all parallels and you see that eSF Teams were right to punish Slayers but just didn't find the proper way. But this punishment (the embargo) was canceled very fast. (See Coach Won Interview and Ace's clarifications).
I don't see any reason why Jessica should be right in that regard.
I like how you deliberately dont mention the following paragraph: "Mr. Won promised that S2con and GomTV would take care of it and get what was needed, and we did not participate in NASL Season 2. However, nothing was gained. I asked Mr. Won whether they tried to talk to NASL at all, to show me the e-mails that went back and forth, but he there wasn't anything of the sort." And then claim that "no further communication happened"
As I said I stated my point on the parallels between both statements, because they are likely to be true. Since there is no evidence for that, I don't see a point in building an argument on that.
To make it clear: Communication is not demanding copies of emails for evidence and progress. When I read about how all the team's heads came together on a regular basis, it would helped Slayers to show up there for one time and discuss their point with everyone in person. And the agreement can be seen between the teams and not between SC2Con. Nowhere is stated that it was only limited to NASL2. And obviously from every eSF teams point of view besides Slayers (and TSL until it was clarified) it was not.
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On October 19 2012 01:21 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:10 amazingoopah wrote:
all of this drama is really killing sc2... instead of working to build up the scene, esf and slayers were engaged in a feud which ended up killing a sc2 team in a time where teams are seeming to be dying left and right. This is the particular reason why I'm upset with the ESF right now. I understand that Slayers did not do a whole lot to rectify the situation on their end, and they did behave rather badly, but if the ESF's goal is to promote SC2 and foster growth in Korea and internationally, they really, REALLY dropped the ball on this one. Even if Slayers was not a part of the ESF the fact that the ESF admitted to blacklisting them for a period of time, and constantly leaning on them to either " join or die," shows that they are more interested in controlling their power and building their own internal structure than actually caring about SC2.
This
User was warned for this post
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On October 19 2012 01:21 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:10 amazingoopah wrote:
all of this drama is really killing sc2... instead of working to build up the scene, esf and slayers were engaged in a feud which ended up killing a sc2 team in a time where teams are seeming to be dying left and right. This is the particular reason why I'm upset with the ESF right now. I understand that Slayers did not do a whole lot to rectify the situation on their end, and they did behave rather badly, but if the ESF's goal is to promote SC2 and foster growth in Korea and internationally, they really, REALLY dropped the ball on this one. Even if Slayers was not a part of the ESF the fact that the ESF admitted to blacklisting them for a period of time, and constantly leaning on them to either "join or die," shows that they are not intent on promoting eSports.
A back ground note, ESF is a federation. Federations only take care of their own, if you aren't part of a federation, you don't get the benefits. What jessica wants is the benefits of TRAINING but without the commitment to the federation, that is a big no no. If you want to mingle with a federation and use its facilities (Aka the players of esf), you damn well join it. It sounds petty, but it happens even in real sports.
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On October 19 2012 01:24 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:21 renaissanceMAN wrote:On October 19 2012 01:10 amazingoopah wrote:
all of this drama is really killing sc2... instead of working to build up the scene, esf and slayers were engaged in a feud which ended up killing a sc2 team in a time where teams are seeming to be dying left and right. This is the particular reason why I'm upset with the ESF right now. I understand that Slayers did not do a whole lot to rectify the situation on their end, and they did behave rather badly, but if the ESF's goal is to promote SC2 and foster growth in Korea and internationally, they really, REALLY dropped the ball on this one. Even if Slayers was not a part of the ESF the fact that the ESF admitted to blacklisting them for a period of time, and constantly leaning on them to either "join or die," shows that they are not intent on promoting eSports. A back ground note, ESF is a federation. Federations only take care of their own, if you aren't part of a federation, you don't get the benefits. What jessica wants is the benefits of TRAINING but without the commitment to the federation, that is a big no no. If you want to mingle with a federation and use its facilities (Aka the players of esf), you damn well join it. It sounds petty, but it happens even in real sports.
While in other circumstances, I would've been inclined to agree with you, the whole 'no practicing' thing wasn't the only issue, and Slayers did cooperate with eSF in many other ways. Also, that very same "federation" claimed they "just want what is best for the players, both eSF and those who aren't a part of it" just a month ago during their fight with KeSPA. Kind of ironic.
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EPT
