|
On October 30 2012 07:19 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 04:12 monkybone wrote:On October 28 2012 10:12 eden-san wrote:On October 28 2012 09:25 monkybone wrote:On October 28 2012 09:11 Portvilla wrote:
Can't he just play LoL? Your phrasing resembles the elitist attitude Incontrol and Idra displayed to Destiny on Inside the Game. That does not work to solve the problem at all; it is just a low blow at a player for no particular reason When a person express himself as intensely negative about a certain activity, without being the slightest positive on the other hand, why is it out of line to ask why such a person is engaged in said activity? Wow, did you ever live in a relationship? People hate because they care. Otherwise they'd just do as you say, they'd just disappear. Destiny hates the game because he cares, people who can't see that are people who just don't have much experience in life IMO. Love can become a fertile ground for the emergence of hate. When the intensity and intimacy of love turns sour, hate may be generated. In these circumstances, hate serves as a channel of communication when other paths are blocked, and it functions to preserve the powerful closeness of the relationship, in which both connection and separation are impossible. Does this seem like a guy who cares about sc2? http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/12ab8m/it_seems_like_destiny_accepted_idras_itg_advice/ The funny thing is that in his long post explaining his current situation and future with sc2, he mentions he is considering switching away from the competitive side of sc2 to the entertainment side or switching games altogether. Um.....since when was he ever really considered a competitive pro gamer? He was mostly viewed as just an entertainer. Semi pro at best.
He does have some points though. Although it feels a bit like he did not really mature (missing the trolling, "fucking with ppl" etc), he has a point if he says that you can't play SC2 for fun. It's always competetive, in 2v2, 3v3 and even in 4v4s. I just want to play with three of my mates, drinking too much beer while doing that. Yeah, 4v4 rating does not matter blablabla (and yeah, it does not), but it sets a competetive mindset. You don't want to lose, because you lose stuff for that (points). And that system is borderline retarded.
I stopped playing SC2 altogether, because i can't bring up the time due to social stuff to practice as hard as i would need to (30 years, that does not help either), and laddering is just frustrating to me. After playing Monobattles for 2 months, i am only a "starcraft2-watcher" now. And for that, i dont need to buy HotS. Of course, i wont, why would i. In that regard, even World of Warcraft is more fun than Starcraft 2. You can login, have some fun, and logout. You did not lose any points while doing that. You just gained stuff (xp, money, gear, whatever, except for Arena-PvP, but then you DECIDE to play competetive). And thats how you need to design a game, it needs to appeal to people who maybe dont want to play competetive as fuck. Thats also btw the only way to get fresh blood into the scene, a "casual" that did not know his competetive side could follow it and become pro. There is just no "base" of players who could actually bring new wind.
Meh, just ranting, sorry. Its frustrating what happened with SC2.
|
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
|
I strongly concur with the concerns; blizzard doesn't seem to be listening to or addressing things well.
There's no reason for a game made today to have any features/parts that are worse than they were 10 years ago; and the more casual players there are in a game, the more people there are who CARE at all about tournaments.
It does seem though like there aren't many RTS'es on the market; why is that? You'd think a decent balanced rts would see some play; why are multiplayer balanced rts so rare?
|
On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
What a stupid argument is that? How many big sponsors do you need to hold in chess? Actually, how many viewers do tournaments get?
Here. Have "fun".
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Neckar_Open.jpg/800px-Neckar_Open.jpg)
And yes. Its actually the biggest german chess-tournament. Looks alot like Dreamhack, right? Man, seriously. Also, why the hell would you bother? It's not like blizzard needs to ditch ladder altogether. But to make it optional for people who don't want to play ladder. I would ask you to stop your wannabe-elitism and actually think about something that would improve SC2. And with that, i don't mean improve for you, but improve in general. What SC2 needs to hold sponsors, etc and teams making money in general is just a bigger playerbase. And you don't get it with SC2 as it is now.
|
On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
making a game more fun for casual does not mean it will be non competitive.
|
They simply should release Blizzard Dota with a decent ladder system, and make it F2P or available for Starter Edition.
For sure I won't play it (I hate MOBAs, all of them), but there is a huge fan base from wow, diablo and starcraft that will be crazy to play with their favorite chars from Blizz universes (Thrall, Arthas, Kerrigan, Muradin, Tassadar, Uther, etc.).
Also, they need to add more achivs, icons, avatars, colours, etc. Casuals love all those things.
|
...so this is what the (underground) Street Fighter community was afraid of (if they jump to professionalism). If their game got too big and producers got too big, they will ignore the community.
|
On October 30 2012 21:08 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
making a game more fun for casual does not mean it will be non competitive.
There is so many casual games out there, what makes you think if SC conformed, people would magically be attracted to SC? I kind of think that one of the reasons SC is so popular for an RTS is because it's competitive.
|
On October 30 2012 10:16 SirPinky wrote:
I'm completely done with HOTS. Seems like Blizzard is throwing darts on a board and seeing which one sticks. They started to remove units altogether for fear of community backlash - it shows they are completely confused with what to do.
David Kim will go down in history as the lead designer who killed SC E-sports. That's a good resume builder.
Browder has all the big name, really unbalanced, run of the mill RTS games on his resume that have glaring problems that were never addressed. That is really good on his resume because the people who hire don't know that.
|
On October 30 2012 23:29 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 21:08 ETisME wrote:On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
making a game more fun for casual does not mean it will be non competitive. There is so many casual games out there, what makes you think if SC conformed, people would magically be attracted to SC? I kind of think that one of the reasons SC is so popular for an RTS is because it's competitive.
The whole point of Destiny's talk is that if it's simply about the competitive nature, wouldn't the franchise and esports aspect of SC2 be in a better position than today?
Because it's not like this is a completely new franchise. We are talking about a game that has over 10 years of legacy, a game that made esports what it is today, a game that takes much skill to play even with casual-friendly mechanics. A game of this caliber doesn't need "magic" to make people play. People want to play on their own free will. But they are not. Why? Well, I don't need to repeat Destiny and many of the people before me.
|
On October 30 2012 23:26 ImGonnaRideYou wrote:
...so this is what the (underground) Street Fighter community was afraid of (if they jump to professionalism). If their game got too big and producers got too big, they will ignore the community.
Ignoring the community would be the best thing to do. Most of us are idiots.
|
On October 30 2012 10:16 SirPinky wrote:
I'm completely done with HOTS. Seems like Blizzard is throwing darts on a board and seeing which one sticks. They started to remove units altogether for fear of community backlash - it shows they are completely confused with what to do.
David Kim will go down in history as the lead designer who killed SC E-sports. That's a good resume builder.
No doubt. It's not even design by committee anymore, it's design by mob rule. Whoever shouts the loudest and can get enough sheep behind them wins.
What happened to vision? Bold singular vision.
|
Well it's time people stop buying Blizzard titles just because they're Blizzard titles. Blizzard can afford to be unconcerned about the quality of their games as long as they break sales records by slapping "StarCraft, Diablo, or WoW" on a box.
|
|
|
The leveling system is a slight improvement into the casual direction. I agree with most of the OP though. As much as I hate to admit it, I don't enjoy the level of competitiveness in SC2. Only do I enjoy 2v2's and some arcades, but unfortunately, my partner has started to dislike 2v2 as well. I will buy HotS for the SP alone though. Still worth the price.
|
On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
Do you even know how to read?
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On October 30 2012 23:29 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 21:08 ETisME wrote:On October 30 2012 11:25 muzzy wrote:
This whole argument is so lame.
Let's make a competitive game non-competitive. That's what it all boils down to.
OK, sure. Let's enable a "Checkers Mode" in Chess. I just want to fuck around with some mates while I play Chess. Chess is a failure because it's always about competing!
making a game more fun for casual does not mean it will be non competitive. There is so many casual games out there, what makes you think if SC conformed, people would magically be attracted to SC? I kind of think that one of the reasons SC is so popular for an RTS is because it's competitive.
The whole point is to add things besides the competitive side. Not to change the competitive side.
Make the custom game system actually function. Add some achievements for different custom games. Add something that enables you to dick around with friends instead of always having that competitive mindset of laddering. None of this would take away from your 1v1 experience, but all of it would make more people keep playing the game.
|
On October 30 2012 02:32 Doc Daneeka wrote:
LoL really gets that many viewers, huh? i think it's a painfully boring type of game to watch. easy to play for casuals, immediate gratification, i dunno why you'd ever watch it instead of just playing it, which is pretty much the opposite of starcraft 2, which is more tempting to watch than to play cos it's frustrating and requires a massive time investment to get any better at.
i mean, watching other people play video games for you is already a niche past-time. i'm surprised it's gotten as big as it has as quickly as it has.
I partly disagree (for myself personally, I fully disagree). I never play LoL but when I play Dota, I never get any "immediate gratification". In fact, I feel more of an "achievement" from playing SC2 than Dota (though SC2 gets boring for me after a while while Dota still relatively stays fresh). (If we're talking about gratification as in the game feels more rewarding to play, than that is SC2 for me. Though if we're talking about just pure fun, that goes to Dota for me.)
I play it because it's generally a more fun game than SC2 (though nowadays, it has become like an MMO with forced roles even in pub play which is making it worse than SC2 at times).
For example, I like to try to experiment with fancy stuff with a variety of heroes.
In SC2, I can experiment but it's just not as varied or fun (at least I'd think. I haven't played SC2 in a while actually).
(Though Dota 2 is getting less fun to play because I'm getting tired of pub play and "Nub! Why you KS" teammates.)
As for why LoL has more viewers? Again I don't play LoL but at least for Dota, it's always fun to see how pros do some things compared to just random people.
Even in SC2 I like that. (I remember when Blizzard once uploaded the replay of a finals between MMA and MVP DIRECTLY TO BATTLE.NET AND YOU CAN WATCH IT THERE IN THE SC2 CLIENT! - I think it was MLG, it wasn't the Blizzcon finals but I know it was between MMA and MVP and it was a finals)
(Yes, Blizzard actually did that. No, they haven't done it ever since for some reason.)
Finally (actually as sort of an addition to the above) - I'd like to take a break from playing the game and just watch other people play the game, I like playing.
It's like "Let's Play" of games. Some people watch LP of games they never played before. Some watch LPs of games they've played before but want to see how others play it.
Same with Dota (and I assume LoL and every other game). If you like a game and some other people are playing it, you want to watch how they play it.
Anyway I said this before many times but it's not about the game being easier or harder to play. It's about the game being more fun to play or not.
Currently for me, Dota is more fun than SC2. It's not about gratification or feeling like I'm achieving anything (I feel that way more in SC2 than in Dota) but because it's just more fun to play. It's like watching TV vs. flossing your teeth. Hey, I like my teeth being clean and I always feel gratification and achievement after flossing (yes, I'm serious) but I'd rather not and just watch TV. (Except TBH, I don't feel the need to play SC2 like I feel the need to floss. But that's my analogy >.>.)
Okay another analogy is cleaning your keyboard (removing the keys, then removing all the dust, then putting back all your keys in the keyboard). I definitely feel satisfaction after cleaning my keyboard (until I realize that it'd just get dirty again in like two weeks), but I'd rather not and save my time to do something I enjoy.
tl;dr - SC2 is like doing chores and is not fun (it's not about difficulty of the game). Dota is fun and addicting. Solution - Blizzard makes SC2 more fun to play and more addiction.
Also as LoL being easier to play than Dota. I wouldn't be surprised if Dota exceeds LoL's popularity once Dota 2 gets fully released. LoL looks a bit outdated and Dota 2 has "better graphics" (even if it's "harder to play"). Plus the game is more of a classic (WC3 Dota was even more popular than WC3 and all its customs [besides Dota of course] combined).
The whole Dota is harder to play than LoL is kind of a moot point actually. Most play is in pub play in which case, it's like playing TF2 on a 32 player server. Sure some stuff may look competitive but most of the time, anyone can join in and play like anyone's game.
Competitive play is competitive play. They're playing to win, so they're probably practicing a ton anyway (making whatever difference in "skill level difference" between the two games also a bit moot).
(Also why SC2 is more popular than BW - One of the reasons, especially as a spectator, is that the game has better graphics and that it's a newer and more "up to date" game. I mean, a lot of people who watch SC don't even play the game that much. That's why SC2 is more popular than BW, not because it's an easier game but because it's a more "up to date" game. Same with Dota vs LoL vs HoN. LoL and HoN actually both look worse than WC3 DotA IMO. While Dota 2 compares to SC2 in graphics. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if Dota 2 exceeds LoL's popularity once it's released. The only thing I can see slowing that down is people with older computers that can't play Dota 2 as well as LoL.)
______________________
Edit 2 - As for more casualness into SC2 to make SC2 itself more popular? Well, in a way WC3 had that with Dota itself except WC3's competitive scene was kind of small and not very popular. I don't think it'll help make SC2 itself more popular.
If StarJeweled was the most popular game ever, then why would people care about watching or playing regular SC2 when they can instead watch or play StarJeweled (for example)? That's what kind of happened with WC3 and Dota. The funny thing is that Dota itself is actually more known and popular than WC3.
I remember reading a gamespot article on the HotS campaign (Kerrigan being usable as a hero in nearly every mission) and the person (interviewing Blizzard) compared it to Dota of all games.
The problem with that comparison to Dota is that in WC3 (and in the campaigns) you had a hero in every mission too (like what they're doing in HotS). HotS campaign is way more like WC3 than Dota (but the person used Dota because the person didn't know WC3 that much).
What will happen is that once StarJeweled becomes the most popular game of all time, when someone sees a Zergling costume, people will start saying "Nice StarJeweled Costume" instead of nice StarCraft costume. That's when you know the mod has overtaken the game itself and all is doomed >.>.
|
If they'll do a proper Blizzard DOTA I'm sure I'll get back onto Starcraft 2. Although its not gonna be 'Starcraft' anymore :/
|
I think people fail to realize how much more money Blizzard makes from WoW and Diablo 3 than SC2. Any investment into esports they make is going to lose them money.
Also, don't forget most of their resources are dedicated to a huge MMO named Titan. Blizzard became rich from WoW, not starcraft. The amount of players that play this game is laughably small in comparison to many other games.
I think they will just milk what money they can from HotS and LotV and be done with it. They even said that half the players only play the campaign. If they KNOW they will make billions of dollars from MMO's, why take a risk in esports that won't even return your investment for, what at least a decade?, if it even does.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
